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Jeph Loeb ruining the Wolverine mythology

 
  

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The Falcon
22:29 / 20.08.07
Well, I think the spirit of the gun (actually Lords of Gunfire) thing in Hitman was the Arkannone and Mawzir, who are actually about the most bloodcurdling terror to ever appear in a non-mature readers designated book I've ever seen. Even beyond that there's not much to rival it, outside of Uzumaki or something. It really is a horror, so I'm quite willing to let that slide. And, erm, a different writer in a different publishing wing produced Rose Tattoo (whose first appearance was, as I recall, not equally but reasonably compellingly unpleasant) and she's a pretty different character given that, well, any reasonably stocked comic shop will be able to provide you with around twenty plus analogues of the JLA, many of whom are really quite easy to identify as such.

On-topic, however, Jeph Loeb is utter shite. I can't remember if I've read both Dark Victory and The Long HallowE'en or just the latter but in either case, for books that are regularly touted as his high watermark in teh comixx, TLH is utter balls - a mystery with about the most aggravating fakeout ending conceivable, ugly hybridising of Year One characters, ciphers more (Falcone) with the then quite fashionable pseudo-Animated Series look Sale had in his art... it's really, I think, off the back of this art (which I now find distinctly unappealing; Sale stylises enough to mask a great deal of sins, and really anyone who looked at his repugnant dwarf Jimmy Olsen in Superman Confidential a few months back knows it ain't got no better - so more correctly off the back of a distortion of Bruce Timm's character designs and Frank Miller's then 15-year-old scenario + the now pretty much sickeningly omnipresent in his work as a sole 'trick', trouping of the supervillains) that Jeph Loeb made any sort of name for himself.

But, you know, fuck; his son did die about two years ago - it's a dreadful cliche to say 'no-one should have to undergo that', but still: No-one should have to undergo that. It must be almost unbearable. I've never seen that used as an excuse for his work, though having perused some true sewer forums it's not difficult to imagine (worse, one of the Bendis board once declared himself glad that Graeme 'Fanboy Rampage' McMillan's mum was dead. Well done, him.) There again, Loeb did bring it up himself in the context of writing Fallen Son: The Death of Captain America, which I thought... well, I'd not judge, I'm a relatively repressed Brit and would imaginably never want to talk about such an awful thing if it happened to me, particularly in that context - it seemed weird to me, to do that. You process grief in strange ways, probably. I do feel bad for him, and likewise Michael Turner for his recurring struggle with cancer but would, nonetheless, rather spend time contemplating my own broken bones (don't worry, it's okay - just a scenario) than a comic they collaborated on. Because it is quite hard to envision a worse writer/artist team - aesthetic and personally sympathetic judgments probably shouldn't be juxtaposed together terribly often, if at all. Particularly in the context of superhero comics, which are almost innately trivialising, or apparently so.
 
 
rhedking
02:48 / 21.08.07
Wow, some of you guys are assholes. Regardless of the quality of Nevile's initial post, does that really call for some of the things that have been said?

Considering the title of the thread is called "Jeph Joeb ruining the Wolverine mythology", then yes it is within reason to bring up Loeb's son since that could concievably be a reason why the quality of the book may or may not have suffered.

I dont know if you guys have some kind of history with with Neville but the bullshit attacks are uncalled for.
 
 
Mark Parsons
03:44 / 21.08.07
It's the pomposity and self-importance of bringing Loeb's son into the issue that's sticking in my craw. The man has done fine work on SMALLVILLE, LOST and HEROES in the last two-odd years. Do you think there are many TV fanboy forum idiots snarking on the quality Loeb's TV work and implying his personal life might be to blame? Do you think if they did so, they MIGHT NOT KNOW WHAT THE FUCK THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT?

If Neville - or anybody else, wants to discuss, critique or even shit on the Wolverine run or Loeb's entire comics oeuvre, then by all means do so. Just leave out the personal speculation: what are you, a fucking National Enquirer/News of the World tabloid (Brad and Angelina Are On The Rocks: Is This Why She is so Dangerously Thin?).

This behavior is obnoxious and implies that you have A) special knowledge of Loeb's life and psyche that you do clearly not have or B) penetrating insight into the effects of tragedy and loss on creativity which, again, neither you nor Neville seem to possess.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
04:52 / 21.08.07
It's amusing that rhedking calls for an end to the bullshit attacks on Neville before making a bullshit attack on Jeph Loeb.
 
 
Spaniel
09:06 / 21.08.07
I'm with Duncan in that I'm of the opinion that Loeb has not, as a rule, written any particularly good comics, so I'm forced to conclude that his latest run on Wolverine is simply more of the same. Patrick's point about rejigging character's origin stories is a genuinely interesting one. It's the same impulse that forces all those bloody analogue characters onto the market: a way of presenting a radical take on a character or a significant change in their circumstances without breaking their iconic - static - status.

Interesting that while Marvel continue to twiddle with the MU, DC are busy trying the clean up the mess created by all their noodling - at least I hope that's what they're doing, as the weeks go by I get increasingly less sure. At least Grant's having a good purge of the Batverse, eh.

Death of Loeb's son=extremely unpleasant topic. Let's leave that shit at the door, shall we?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:18 / 21.08.07
I think the idea that what DC has been doing for the last few years is somehow a laudable steamlining exercise that will make everything clean and accessible is possibly the most spurious one to be expressed in a thread that, even by the standards of the Comics forum, is MAXIMAL TOILET.
 
 
Spaniel
09:43 / 21.08.07
Eh? Sure, it doesn't look too likely right now, but it seemed semi-plausible when Countdown began. I mean, there was all that bollocks about slaughtering impurities and wotnot, no? About the monitors sacred mission to get the Multiverse neat and tidy. And Didio had recently gone on record about redundancies in the Batverse (Nightwing, Red Hood)...

I feel justified in going offtopic this time.
 
 
Janean Patience
09:55 / 21.08.07
even by the standards of the Comics forum

I don't know about anyone else, but I can't get enough of being told how dreadful the Comics forum is. Honestly, I lap that shit up.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:56 / 21.08.07
Oh, well if Didio says it, it must be both true and a good idea. I mean, Infinite Crisis and 52 both lived up to their billing and made a lick of sense and had a lot of point, didn' - oh wait. No. They didn't. They were shit. A load of pointless incomprehensible fucking shit.

If Dan Didio sold you his dessicated baby batter, and told you it was finiest Columbian cocaine, would you hoover it up as unquestioningly?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:01 / 21.08.07
If anyone thinks I'm being reductive, here's a simple challenge: explain a) Alex Luthor's motivations, goals and planned methodology, and b) the difference between the DC Universe pre-Infinite Crisis and post-52, in a clear and understandable fashion that make sense rather than making the head of any decent person feel hurty. Then make an argument that all of this was contained in the comics.
 
 
Spaniel
10:22 / 21.08.07
I think you're doing the ranty thing at the wrong guy. I completely agree with you about Infinite Crisis. I thought it was predominently a big pile of arse that 100% failed to create anything resembling a more streamlined DCU, in fact I'm pretty sure I've expressed these opinions on Barbelith more than once. As for lapping up anything that Didio says, I'm afraid I'm at a loss as to how you could've come to that conclusion. I included Didio's bat-talk in my thinking because it seemed to mesh with the apparent aims of Countdown. I think it should be noted that I have yet to start a thread called Why I want to pash Dan Didio and speak truth with him
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:26 / 21.08.07
So... if you haven't been fooled before, why on earth do you think DC are busy trying the clean up the mess created by all their noodling? Is the answer going to involve swingball?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
10:37 / 21.08.07
at least I hope that's what they're doing, as the weeks go by I get increasingly less sure.

Let's start an utterly pointless argument! Yay!
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:44 / 21.08.07
Janean Patience - It is fun isn't it? I think it's something to do with the level of traffic the music forum is getting.

I'm sure Haus will be along to tell Petey and Boboss to stop the threadrottery any minute now.

If not, stop the threadrottery now please.
 
 
Janean Patience
10:44 / 21.08.07
at least I hope that's what they're doing, as the weeks go by I get increasingly less sure.

Yes, that was the post that started the argument alright. After an outrageously provocative statement like that, what choice was there but to kick the fuck off?
 
 
Janean Patience
10:45 / 21.08.07
Crosspost. I shall be silent now, in respect for Our Lady's statement.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:46 / 21.08.07
I'm sorry, but I get very narked at how often DC's big event/concept comics seem to get cut slack in advance, or as an overall project, around here, when very few people seem prepared to try and defend the actual stories themselves (I know we do have a pro-Johns camp here, but I'm talking about something else). I think my irritation stems from the suspicion that it's all due to Grant Morrison's hard-to-quantify involvement - an arrangement which is clearly beneficial for Morrison and DC on several levels, and has produced some very good Batman/Superman stories, but has also led to the worst comics with Morrison's name on them that I've ever encountered, and the frankly embarrasing Wildstorm relaunch shambles. I suppose that all deserves another thread, though.
 
 
Spaniel
10:50 / 21.08.07
Not sure when I started anything, Wang. I've just been responding to increasingly stroppy posts, something I have taken absolutely no pleasure in.

Petey, you know, it's really fucking unpleasant being spoken to like I'm a fucking idiot. Do you think you could, just maybe, fucking stop it? If the comics forum has this kind of effect on you might I also suggest that you do wot Neville oughta and stop bloody reading it.

That said, I think I can see where the problem is: my failure to fully express the fact that I have abandoned my optimism about the goals of Countdown. That that optimism existed in the first place - as I've said repreatedly - was a product of what seemed to be going on in the pages of the comic. Again, Didio's utterances just seemed to chime with that. Besides, it's not so out there to think that perhaps, just perhaps, a DC editor might share my feeling that the DCU is a complete bloody mess.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:58 / 21.08.07
Okay. I shouldn't be doing this. Apologies, all. I'll put some mod/delete requests in which people can either approve or leave as an example of what not to do etc.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:59 / 21.08.07
Oh dear. I think the DC Universe is probably a subject for another thread - possibly the Countdown thread. Given that Infinite Crisis ended with one Earth (that is, exactly the same situation as after Zero Hour, 52 then ended with a bunch of Earths with many duplicates of characters also found in Earth-1, and Countdown has so far removed... um... the Joker's Daughter, I have no idea what the logic there is. However, best addressed elsewhere.

Furioso: Please do not accuse anyone else of pomposity or self-imnportance until you have taken a nice, long look at this post of yourn, and then possibly decided to have a little lie down and a glass of grown-up juice. Lady and Rhedking, please stop rotting the thread. If you must rot it, try to read the posts relevant to your threadrot first - neither Neville Barker's post nor rhedking's post in any way resemble your interpretations.

Back ontopic - the elementals thing is pretty old. In X-person terms, this feels more like the Draco thing. Which was awful, and ridiculous (Nightcrawler's dad is SATAN OMG), but doesn't seem to have broken the character, particularly - it's just an embarrassing character error that nobody likes to talk about. Given that almost anything that happens with Wolverine can be explained away as something to do with memory implants (or does that House of M thing where he remembers everything still hold?), I don't imagine that this will be referred to again after a year or so.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
11:12 / 21.08.07
Not sure when I started anything, Wang.

Sorry, that was aimed at Flyboy, not you. Quoted your post to show that - shock! gasp! - it had been taken out of context.
 
 
Janean Patience
11:32 / 21.08.07
I misunderstood that as well. Apologies.
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
11:37 / 21.08.07
does that House of M thing where he remembers everything still hold?

I'm not reading Wolverine, as mentioned, but according to recent New Avengers, yes. It was given as a reason he should be considered as a suspect for being in a skrull imposter. By Wolvie himself IIRC.
 
 
Spaniel
11:50 / 21.08.07
lol

Is anyone reading the comic other than Neville? My knowledge comes exclusively from the X-Axis review.

Now, should this thread be locked? I'm thinking of cutting and pasting snippets of my set-to (sp?) with Petey and bunging it in the Countdown thread as I think some of it is worth preserving, particularly Petey's point about Grant Morrison's oh-so-very nebulous involvement.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:54 / 21.08.07
I think the question, if anyone is willing to listen to me now I've soiled myself in public, is has the Wolverine solo title ever been good? Greg Rucka had a go, but it would appear a lot of the intended audience hated it - no costumes, Logan as a surly loner doing Punisher-esque stuff - Mark Millar's follow-up was very much intended to be the opposite tonally, all flash-bang and massive fights. At the time I hated Millar's run, but it was far better than anything that's come since. Prior to Rucka, the last time it was remotely engaging was the period in which Logan was without adamantium and his healing factor was on the blink - but still, nobody talks about classic runs on this title, do they? Is it just a case of this character needing an ensemble cast to spark off?
 
 
Spaniel
12:06 / 21.08.07
I enjoyed Millar's little jaunt on the title for the first half of his run, then it got tedious, fast. However I wouldn't say it was particularly good or even memorable, let alone important or in any way seminal. I suppose Frank Miller's run (was it a mini?) had seminal qualities in that it helped shape the character for years to come, but, again, it's hardly his best work.

I'm probably not best placed to answer this question, having not read many Wolverine comics over the years.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
12:54 / 21.08.07
I scraped the barrel of memory but all I could come up with was that there was an early issue which was basically a "shut up and fight" issue between Wolverine and Sabretooth (back when the characters both actually had some mystery) that was brilliantly rendered by Sienkiewicz.

God, that title's been almost wholly terrible from Day One, hasn't it? "Patch" was one of the worst ideas ever from the House of Claremont, and that really really really says a lot.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:33 / 21.08.07
You could argue that what makes Wolverine tend towards being (i.e. when written well) a good character in the context of either the X-Men or, actually, the Avengers, is the same thing that makes him tend towards being a lousy character solo. His place in the group dynamic is to rub up against other people with different worldviews - I think this is arguably why his own title has sometimes favoured giving him a happy-go-lucky or innocent sidekick.
 
 
Janean Patience
13:44 / 21.08.07
I think this is arguably why his own title has sometimes favoured giving him a happy-go-lucky or innocent sidekick.

In British newspapers, happy-go-lucky is only ever used to describe the dead; usually teenagers who've rolled a car or drowned in a lake or bravely fought cancer. Its use in this context, based on the projected lifespan of a supporting character in a Wolverine book, I find wholly appropriate.
 
 
Jamie
16:36 / 21.08.07
And, erm, a different writer in a different publishing wing produced Rose Tattoo...

My bad. I had a brief Ennis/Ellis brain fart.
 
 
grant
16:40 / 21.08.07
Didn't Loeb do a couple of those Batman Halloween specials? I quite liked them back in the day....
 
 
The Falcon
19:12 / 21.08.07
Yes, Dark Victory and The Long Hallowe'en; I can recall the latter which concludes with what's generally a bit of nonsensical cheat narrative... don't think time's been kind. I discuss this a little at the top of the page.
 
 
grant
19:22 / 21.08.07
Sorry, couldn't remember the titles if you paid me. I have a vague memory of one being a Scarecrow story and one being a Mad Hatter story (in which the Mad Hatter actually became a little scary) but haven't read them at all in yeaaars.
 
 
grant
19:33 / 21.08.07
Ah - Wikipedia tells me The Long Halloween was a 13-issue follow-up to the three Halloween specials, and Dark Victory was a sequel to *that*. I never read those, just the one-shots.

They're summarized here and, more briefly, here.
 
 
The Falcon
19:51 / 21.08.07
Ah, apologies; these? - never seen or heard of 'em.
 
  

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