BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Dumbing up

 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
16:14 / 07.08.07
Taken from Mark Evans essay "The Republic of Bullshit" as featured in Bullshit and Philosophy": -

'Equal respect' leads to the relativist game of 'I'm valid, you're valid: we're all entitled to our opinions', wherein having 'an equal right to express an opinion' becomes conflated with the claim of 'equal validity of whatever opinion is expressed' (where 'validity' means 'equal intellectual merit'). And no matter what nonsense this may legitimate, the anti-elitist aim is to raise everyone's view to some level of substantiative equal worth: it is, in effect, a dumbing-up.

Something I've been encountering recently is the arguement of opinion as outlined above, and whilst I can appreciate it from a philosophical search for reality context, I can't from a pragmatic context which (taken to its extreme) would mean that a gas station attendant's opinion on rhinoplasty is as valid/valuable as a plastic surgeons.

I'm wondering if such an arguement is a result of living in a reletively democratic and information rich age, and if this richness leads to saying "I don't know" being a stigma, or are people simply using this arguement to avoid being proven wrong and feeling a little less intelligent?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:38 / 07.08.07
Well, let's see what happened there. First, we can see that there is an assumption that people (are) simply using this arguement - the argument, presumably, that 'I'm valid, you're valid: we're all entitled to our opinions', wherein having 'an equal right to express an opinion' becomes conflated with the claim of 'equal validity of whatever opinion is expressed' (where 'validity' means 'equal intellectual merit'). There may be substantiation of this claim in the book, but there is certainly no such substantiation in this post. We are expected to take it on trust - to accept uncritically, if you will - this assumption. That's the first problem with the above.

Another and more fundamental problem is that it describes a situation that does not exist at all. You admit as much, Mako, by putting (taken to its extreme) in your scenario - as far as I know, this extreme has not been encountered by you and certainly has not been by me. However, although probably fictitious, this extreme example is quite interesting for what it says, or does not say. Let's take a look at it.

I can't from a pragmatic context (appreciate an argument) which (taken to its extreme) would mean that a gas station attendant's opinion on rhinoplasty is as valid/valuable as a plastic surgeons.

Now, I think there is a piece of terminological inexactitude there which requires teasing out. Let us imagine that our gas station attendant expresses the opinion that rhinoplasty is in almost every case a superfluous operation to satisfy the vanity of the unhappy, and that the medical training of trained medical professionals should be better directed at helping the genuinely unwell. This is an opinion, and one which might be as valid or as valuable as the opinion of a plastic surgeon - it might certainly be more disinterested.

Now. Let's imagine that I am about to have a little work done. At that point, were I to seek a _medical_ opinion, I would want the medical opinion of a plastic surgeon over the medical opinion of a gas station attendant. However, were I to be trying to get some gas out of a pump, I would find that plastic surgeon's professional opinion rather less valuable than the professional opinion of the attendant who knows how to operate the pump. This is about learning and skills - tekhnai, tekne, kind of thing.

Of course, a particular petrol pump attendant may know more about the surgical processes of rhinoplasty than a particular management consultant - he might have made a bit of a study of it - but there is at least an expectation that he will not know more about these same processes as a plastic surgeon. Even that is not totally reliable, of course - lest we forget, Steven Segal in Under Siege, although a cook, actually has far better opinions on how to kill people than the professional soldiers to whom he should notionally defer. His case may, however, be exceptional - as Erika Eleniak notes, he is not just a cook.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
19:13 / 07.08.07
There may be substantiation of this claim in the book, but there is certainly no such substantiation in this post.

Sorry, I thought that by stating "Something I've been encountering recently is the arguement of opinion as outlined above" was a substantiation of this claim - I'm not making the assumption that just because this is what I've read, than this is what is happening to the world at large, however I am making the statement that what I've read in this case is a pretty good analysis of what I've encountered recently.

If examples are needed to substantiate these encounters than I can offer them up, however these specifics probably won't add anything that isn't in the quote or the hypothetical scenario I've outlined. Whether or not I do, I'm still comfortable with allowing readers to decide on whether or not such an alaysis conforms to arguements that they've encountered, because I'm not trying to work out if such arguements exist (as I've already encountered them) but rather why they exist.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
19:20 / 07.08.07
I think the right of everyone to have their opinion "validated" - which I think is a goofy word in this context, but I'm going by the text you've offered - is coupled with the right of everyone to decide for themselves which opinions to listen to - to form their own opinions about your opinion, I suppose.

The example I often use is about art: you can shit on a box and call it Art and claim to be an Artist. I am not going to deny that it is Art or that you are an Artist. Your belief, or assertion, or opinion, or whatever, is completely Valid to me.

I am also not going to buy your Art or tell my friends how good it is, because I think it sucks, and I don't have to study Art in college for X years for that opinion to be Valid.

see? we both win! so no, I don't think it makes us dumber.

apologies if I've completely misunderstood the topic. the "recently updated threads" tool is getting me into fora I don't normally frequent.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
19:28 / 07.08.07
The example I often use is about art: you can shit on a box and call it Art and claim to be an Artist. I am not going to deny that it is Art or that you are an Artist. Your belief, or assertion, or opinion, or whatever, is completely Valid to me.

Though if I have no other experience with art beyond this attempt and what anyone would pick up in a high school visual arts course, is my opinion as valid as someone whose profession is art and has completed a higher level of education in these realms? Doesn't expertise make an opinion more valuble?
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
19:57 / 07.08.07
"valuable"? like Haus was saying - it's all about what you're getting the opinion for.

your opinion can be more informed than someone else's, or more useful than someone else's, depending on what someone else is using it for. in that sense it could be called more Valuable.

let's say you're trying to decide whether or not to put the art in your house. why would you put it there? are you hoping to impress someone? is it for some tax write off kind of reason? or is it just for your own enjoyment? if it's the latter, then your opinion is more useful than anyone else's, surely, regardless of how much you have or have not studied art. someone else's opinion is less useful than yours, ultimately, because of your unique position as the person buying the art and taking it home.

when the quote talks about "merit" - what kind of merit? as decided by whom? even if you are looking for some kind of objective evaluation of an opinion from society in general it would still depend on the society in question. if you want something more objective than that, who would be the judge of Merit? God? the Universe? at this point the whole thing seems silly, but I'm guessing if you asked God he'd tell you everyone's opinion is equally Valid. except for the infidels, obviously.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:15 / 07.08.07
OK, Mako. Let's assume that your experience is both accurate, inasmuch as your analysis of the arguments being advanced is corrent, and that these instances are examples of a broader trend.

That leaves the rest of my post, which addresses, among other things, the complications in your hypothetical example, which I imagine are not universal to your current experiences because it identifies forms of opinion that you have not so far distinguished. Reproduced below:

Another and more fundamental problem is that it describes a situation that does not exist at all. You admit as much, Mako, by putting (taken to its extreme) in your scenario - as far as I know, this extreme has not been encountered by you and certainly has not been by me. However, although probably fictitious, this extreme example is quite interesting for what it says, or does not say. Let's take a look at it.

I can't from a pragmatic context (appreciate an argument) which (taken to its extreme) would mean that a gas station attendant's opinion on rhinoplasty is as valid/valuable as a plastic surgeons.

Now, I think there is a piece of terminological inexactitude there which requires teasing out. Let us imagine that our gas station attendant expresses the opinion that rhinoplasty is in almost every case a superfluous operation to satisfy the vanity of the unhappy, and that the medical training of trained medical professionals should be better directed at helping the genuinely unwell. This is an opinion, and one which might be as valid or as valuable as the opinion of a plastic surgeon - it might certainly be more disinterested.

Now. Let's imagine that I am about to have a little work done. At that point, were I to seek a _medical_ opinion, I would want the medical opinion of a plastic surgeon over the medical opinion of a gas station attendant. However, were I to be trying to get some gas out of a pump, I would find that plastic surgeon's professional opinion rather less valuable than the professional opinion of the attendant who knows how to operate the pump. This is about learning and skills - tekhnai, tekne, kind of thing.

Of course, a particular petrol pump attendant may know more about the surgical processes of rhinoplasty than a particular management consultant - he might have made a bit of a study of it - but there is at least an expectation that he will not know more about these same processes as a plastic surgeon. Even that is not totally reliable, of course - lest we forget, Steven Segal in Under Siege, although a cook, actually has far better opinions on how to kill people than the professional soldiers to whom he should notionally defer. His case may, however, be exceptional - as Erika Eleniak notes, he is not just a cook.


I might be missing something more or less significant here - there may be a reason why this distinction is invalid, and that by definition no petrol pump attendant can have a worthwhile opinion about rhinoplasty in any contexty, but I don't think that's the strongest line for your argument to take. I think it would be useful for you to go back and think about how you are relating knowledge, understanding, opinion, skill and related terms.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
21:50 / 07.08.07
your opinion can be more informed than someone else's, or more useful than someone else's, depending on what someone else is using it for. in that sense it could be called more Valuable.

It's not the concept that most of us have the capability to form an opinion that I'm having difficulty with, nor the concept that someone's opinion may be more or less insightful than expected, but rather the concept that two peoples opinions are equally valid in the instance that one person has greater knowledge of the subject at hand.

Now thankfully I don't normally encounter that reasoning, though I have of late and I've been trying to work out how it arises - is there is any logic to it and what is that logic, is it a defence mechanism and why is it employed, and how does this logic/defence relate to the modern era.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:46 / 07.08.07
OK, so, let's try to wrangle some sense into this again.

Let's look at these things you have experienced. In these experiences, have both parties acknowledged that one of the two people expressing contrary opinions is far more informed about the subject under discussion? Has the party who has freely acknowledged that they know far less about the subject than the other person then maintained their contrary opinion about a subject-specific topic under discussion (for example, the particular angle at which a bone should be struck to break it during the process of reconstruction of a deviated septum)? Has this party then stated that this difference of opinion is not because of a different interpretation of known subject-specific knowledge, but specifically as an opinion based on ignorance. Has this subject, finally, claimed that this avowedly uninformed opinion is as likely to be right, or as valuable, as the subject-specific opinion, based on subject knowledge, of the other party?

I think that works relatively well as a basis. If the less "qualified" person is still expressing a subject-specific opinion based on subject knowledge, that becomes less clear-cut by some distance. There is a fairly proud tradition of people making observations that were missed by more senior or qualified people in the same discipline.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:34 / 08.08.07
'Equal respect' leads to the relativist game of 'I'm valid, you're valid: we're all entitled to our opinions', wherein having 'an equal right to express an opinion' becomes conflated with the claim of 'equal validity of whatever opinion is expressed' (where 'validity' means 'equal intellectual merit'). And no matter what nonsense this may legitimate, the anti-elitist aim is to raise everyone's view to some level of substantiative equal worth: it is, in effect, a dumbing-up.

I think a lot of this hinges on what he means by his 'Equal Respect', which looks more like a straw man every time I re-read this.

Sure, there are times when a programme of 'Equal Respect' might be calamitous - such as taking a child's opinion on something to be as valid, in the same order, as an adult's opinion on it (the inexperienced child thinks the moon is made out of cheese, the adult has read books and knows it is made out of rock, therefore if we wanted to know what the moon was made out of, having 'Equal Respect' for both views would be foolish).

Except there are other times when it makes perfect sense to have 'Equal Respect' for a number of people. The five or six different people at the bus stop all want to get on the bus, why should you have more respect for the white person than for the black person, or the able-bodied over the wheelchair user? What possible problems could 'Equal Respect' in this example cause?

I can think of a number of initiatives pushing for equal respect in the "bus stop" sense above, but I can't think of anyone in contemporary culture seriously pushing for an 'Equal Respect' where the idea that a child's "moon = cheese" concept is as valid as an adult's "moon = rock" (but see point 1 & 2 below).

A lot of people confuse these two notions of equality. Is this author also doing so?


1)

There are, of course, Intelligent Design and Creationism, which broadly claim religion to be "as valid" as science, but do they really clamour for 'Equal Respect', or do they claim magical knowledge, which is something different?

2)

There are initiatives which, for example, might aim to ask the local residents in an area what they think about a new development there by the city council, let's say a new statue, to respect their opinions on an equal level.

Now, Joe Bloggs in this case might not know very much about statuary, and it might be silly to respect his ideas for a statue as much as a trained artist or public planner's idea for the same. But, is it as silly to respect his complaints if the statue blocks the the sunlight from his garden, or his complaints that he is a native american and the statue is of Columbus and thus creates bad feelings in the neighbourhood?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:45 / 08.08.07
Oh, it's absolutely a straw man. It's much like the myth of political correctness: you want to make something that's happening sound bad without voicing your objections to the parts of it that will sound reasonable to most people - so you fudge the facts a little or a lot and say that something else is happening.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:31 / 08.08.07
Now, Joe Bloggs in this case might not know very much about statuary, and it might be silly to respect his ideas for a statue as much as a trained artist or public planner's idea for the same. But, is it as silly to respect his complaints if the statue blocks the the sunlight from his garden, or his complaints that he is a native american and the statue is of Columbus and thus creates bad feelings in the neighbourhood?

Well, quite, which is where the question of what is subject-specific comes in. Joe Bloggs may not be the person to decide whether this bent arm would best be depicted in Pentelic or Parian marble, to avoid it breaking. However, he may well have far greater experience of what looks good in the garden he visits every day. Also, if he is representative of the public for whom the statue is notionally being provided, his aesthetic opinion, before you even get onto the difficulties of gauging aesthetic judgements, is in a quite real sense more valuable than the opinion of a student of sculpture the next town over.

Intelligent design comes down to the same issue, I think. There's no real problem with people believing in Intelligent Design - if you're going to believe in God and the Devil and so on, you may as well fill your boots. The problem comes with teaching it as a scientific theory, in science classes, because it isn't a scientific theory. The interpretation of subject-specific evidence by subject experts concludes that Intelligent Design is not a scientific theory with sufficient evidence and validity to take up time on the science syllabus. Those who argue for it to be taught in schools are not doing so for subject-specific reasons, but for reasons and with opinions external to the subject, to do with the role of religious faith in education.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:00 / 08.08.07
I certainly find it hard to see how you could have too much "democracy and information". I can see they need to be in the right place to be useful, but that's not the same thing as them being bad or ideally finite.

Not to be too anecdotal, but really the only example of what we might call "Unreasonable Equal Respect" that has even remotely affected me is at writing workshops and seminars I've chaired, where a participant might submit a very honest and authentic poem, about something terrible that has happened to them, but which is not actually very good at all in technical or artistic terms; and where people have argued that the fact that it "really happened" or that it "shows how the person really feels" makes it as good as a technically more acheived piece of literature.

Again anecdotally, in my experience and in the experience of tutors, situations like this are sometimes widespread in English departments at Univeristies, with not only students but lecturers ignoring the technical aspect of a work in favour of "bigging up" what it "says about society" or how it presents a good picture of the lives of women or of ethnic minorities (when Jane Austen, say, is also worth serious study in terms of structure, plot, lexis and so on).

The danger in these two examples being, of course, that by extrapolation we would see a world full of "Painful Lives" literature and no more Pound or Voltaire (!!1, etc).

Again though, as I said over in the Hirst thread, this is probably just the modern manifestation of the Victorian trend for assessing a piece on it's "moral qualities" - something that has always been around in one way or another, and has more to do with general sloppy thinking, and the social pressures to be nice in a workshop situation, and slip-ups made when trying to serve the very real need to get, say, women or ethnic minorities to feel comfortable at universities (so as to make the population generally better educated, which is a good thing).

I'd see it as various intelligent people with good intentions accidentally missing out important areas of study and producing flawed schema, rather than a co-ordinated attempt to institute the "Equal Respect" that this chap talks about.

So there's that. Could we find room here to go on to discuss Bakhtin, with the idea of the Heterogloss, and the idea in Post-colonial theory of presenting/making legitimate a range of voices from outside the metropole (which feed into my anecdotes), and whether any of this constitutes - erm - "dumbing up"?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:08 / 08.08.07
Your anecdotes also seem to be based on an understanding of respect that is at best partial on the part of the tutor, etc. - the equal respect that someone deserves when they submit a piece of written work is to get a fair hearing and the same level of critical analysis that everyone else would expect. The problem with this is that the discourse of critical analysis has traditionally been skewed to favour good old white men, of course...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:22 / 08.08.07
The danger in these two examples being, of course, that by extrapolation we would see a world full of "Painful Lives" literature and no more Pound or Voltaire (!!1, etc).

Well, exactly - which would be utter toss. The market has always been able to sustain a base of populist writing and a smaller amount of "literary" publishing. If a smaller amount oof your population is literate, the standards of your relatively populist writing may be higher. If you want to stop people reading "A Boy Called It", the logical solution is to stop people learning to read. However, I find it hard to believe that "A Boy Called It" is being bigged up by any lecturer as of comparable literary merit to Tolstoy (obviously, it becomes more complicated than Tolstoy halfway through).

To look somewhere a bit more credible - personally, I don't like "The Color Purple". I don't like the style in which it is written. However, I can see that it is more useful, for certain approaches, than the poetry of Ezra Pound. Technically naive therapy poetry is generally not as useful if you want to enjoy the technical skill of a poet (or indeed study a poem - "I hate my dad and I cut myself" is not very polyvalent), but it has other use values. Of course, other factors are in play here as well - if somebody has just read a poem about their traumatic childhood/teenaged abortion/recent bereavement, there are pressures on the listener not to say "Sorry you've had a bad week, love, but that was rancid" which exist outside the specific remit of critical study.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
14:25 / 08.08.07
your opinion can be more informed than someone else's, or more useful than someone else's, depending on what someone else is using it for. in that sense it could be called more Valuable.

It's not the concept that most of us have the capability to form an opinion that I'm having difficulty with, nor the concept that someone's opinion may be more or less insightful than expected, but rather the concept that two peoples opinions are equally valid in the instance that one person has greater knowledge of the subject at hand.


I really don't understand your reply. Nowhere in my post, or especially in the part you quoted, do I talk about the capability of various people to form opinions. Nowhere do I mention the possibility of an opinion turning out to be less informed than initially expected.

You seem to be talking about what I would call the Utility of an opinion. If someone has greater knowledge of the subject at hand, then their opinion should be more Valid. However this is a very subjective condition, it depends almost entirely upon the specific situation at hand. Thus the examples about art and rhinoplasty and poetry. Often, possibly even always, we can imagine some (possibly unlikely) scenario in which, yes, even the gas station attendant's opinion is more useful or more important.

I think you are talking about a problem that does not exist. No one is saying artists, because their opinions on space flight are Equally Valid, should be designing the next Space Shuttle. What people are saying is that if artists have an opinion on where to spend our tax dollars, and their opinion is that spaceflight is a waste of money, then their opinion is equally Valid. Do you dispute this?

a participant might submit a very honest and authentic poem, about something terrible that has happened to them, but which is not actually very good at all in technical or artistic terms; and where people have argued that the fact that it "really happened" or that it "shows how the person really feels" makes it as good as a technically more acheived piece of literature.

I would argue that a very honest and authentic poem which was poorly written might in fact very much be worth reading or as "good" as a more technically achieved poem. I just wouldn't point to it as a good example of technique.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:25 / 09.08.07
The problem with this is that the discourse of critical analysis has traditionally been skewed to favour good old white men, of course...

I could do with having this unpacked, if it won't derail the thread. I've always been a bit unsure about this statement. Does it mean "skewed in favour of those who were in a position to get a good education, rehetorical skills, the power to publish and a feeling of entitlement to use the above; which for a long time has meant (mostly) white males"?

I ask this because ultimately, and I say this with respect and in the knowledge that I'm part of the problem, a lot of the projects in our current status quo designed to get voices other than that of the white male heard seem to fall into the Liberal Capitalism trap - that is, to expect (particularly secondary school) literature courses to add a story by or about an asylum seeker, say - without putting the onus on the government or on industry to change the way the real economic base works, and so not really doing anything at all about the fact that white males are still "in a better position to get a good education, rehetorical skills, the power to publish and a feeling of entitlement to use the above" - doing nothing about racism in the police, or about the privatisation of people's environments and public services, and the system of priviledge that creates.

Which is a bit like making it illegal for the citizen to smoke but still letting tobacco companies sell and advertise cigarettes 24/7 - yeah, fine, smoking is bad, we all know that, but it's the weaker of the two guilty parties (the citizen and not the tobacco company) who gets pushed about; likewise it's the weaker of the two parties (the Literature Department, broadly, and not the economic base it is a superstructure of) that gets pushed about and obliged.

So we've acheived the stage where we're putting a "Poems from other cultures" section in the GCSE Literature Anthology, which is great, but it's not a full solution to the underlying racism/inequality problem, and it can take up time that needs to be shared out fairly between study of social context and study of technique and form (which last two are incredibly important - to use language in the clearest and best way possible is a skill everyobdy needs if we are to avoid the problems Orwell points out in "Politics and the English Language" (my italics):

"Now, it is clear that the decline of a language must ultimately have political and economic causes: it is not due simply to the bad influence of this or that individual writer. But an effect can become a cause, reinforcing the original cause and producing the same effect in an intensified form, and so on indefinitely. A man may take to drink because he feels himself to be a failure, and then fail all the more completely because he drinks. It is rather the same thing that is happening to the English language. It becomes ugly and inaccurate because our thoughts are foolish, but the slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts."

Now what I've just said needs some caveats. I'm not for one minute suggesting that "real literature" (which is impossible to define anyway) is being forgotten in favour of "political correctness", and I'm not saying that the experience of minorities in literature, how literature relates to social powers, and all the related lines of questioning, are not worth following closely. You wouldn't really be studying literature at all if you didn't look at the social conditions it sprang from. I'm just saying that this "fighting off the Dead White Men"/"listening to other voices" idea is a bit of a bait and switch, it gives a lot less than it offers.

All of which is an incredibly long-winded way of ackowledging that in our society, to get back to the thread abstract, we actually still don't have "Equal Respect" in any major way yet, which makes it seem like even more of a straw man except in the ways that have been outlined in other posts.

I would argue that a very honest and authentic poem which was poorly written might in fact very much be worth reading or as "good" as a more technically achieved poem. I just wouldn't point to it as a good example of technique.

Oh yeah, I mean on a lot of nursing/caring courses there's a lot of work done with reading the writing of patients and so on, and in a lot of community education projects (and alchoholics anonymous etc) people who otherwise wouldn't get a chance to say what they think, or who wouldn't be comfortable doing so, are encouraged to write down what they feel. So this kind of writing certainly has uses - just not, really, as literature, on a literature course. Which is basically what you said.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
13:50 / 09.08.07
What people are saying is that if artists have an opinion on where to spend our tax dollars, and their opinion is that spaceflight is a waste of money, then their opinion is equally Valid. Do you dispute this?

I do. Well, kind of.

I've not read the book in question, but on reading the quote that started this thread, my interpretation was that it was generally referring to something much more akin to this - political opinions, essentially - than to opinions on whether breaking a nose in a particular place during surgery will create a straighter end product. As Haus says, there are qualitatively different forms of opinion. In the light of this, I'd quite like to take Mako up on hir offer to find examples, because I do recognise this argument in terms of its being deployed in relation to political opinions, but not to opinions of the nature outlined in the initial example.

So, the "extreme version" of the argument, as I interpret it, wouldn't be to posit a plastic surgeon's and petrol station attendant's opinions on the technicalities of rhinoplasty as equally valid. Rather, it would be something that I actually have heard occasionally (on internet forums - in fact, I think similar arguments have been deployed here by one or two trolls - and from a w*rk colleague): that a KKK member's political views are just as worthwhile as anyone else's. Which argument, frankly, I have very little time for.

And which is just my opinion, obviously.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
14:19 / 09.08.07
I would easily say that a KKK member's political opinions are not as Welcome, depending on the environment. Obviously, if this were some sort of White Supremacist message board, the reverse might be true.

Worthwhile, as in (I assume) worth your time reading - no, probably not. But then again, as you say, that's very dependent upon who You are, very much your opinion.

Well-informed - well, I suppose that's not as easily determined in this hypothetical case, but I'm going to go ahead and guess that the average KKK member isn't as well-informed as the average almost anything else.

Valid, as defined in some way which does not include any of those previous things? Maybe?

I think for me what you said works well - you don't have time for it. Yes, I can imagine some far-fetched scenario in which the KKK guy has something very important and meaningful to say and I'm missing out by not listening. I could also imagine a scenario in which I'm a brain in a jar and nothing I perceive actually exists, but it's hard to say where to go from there, so I don't generally bother with it.

I guess I'd say that whether or not his opinion is as Valid as mine isn't necessarily a factor in determining whether or not it should get posted on Barbelith or tolerated in general in society.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
16:19 / 09.08.07
The impression I've got of the way the argument is deployed is that it tends to refer to your third point - a kind of inherent worth, not related to being well-informed or worth reading - and sometimes mixing in a bit of your last paragraph, that it should be just as welcome to be expressed as any opinion. I think the latter comes into play in particular in a lot of journalism, and can be seen in what seems to me to be the Guardian's editorial policy of ensuring they fit in an obnoxiously right-wing view on any hot-button current issue - the whole "comment is free" thing, ensuring that if they publish something against, say, nuclear weapons, then they must find someone who thinks nuking Iran's a great idea.

I'm not sure I was clear in my last post - it's not just the KKK creature's views themselves I have no time for, but the argument that said views have any inherent worth, and my not subscribing to this argument extends to views which are much less egregiously horrible.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
17:06 / 09.08.07
it's not just the KKK creature's views themselves I have no time for, but the argument that said views have any inherent worth

I guess when we get to the point of an idea having some kind of nebulous inherent Worth, unrelated to it's usefulness or tendency to cause harm, etc., then I begin to have a hard time saying that any idea has more worth than another - but that may be largely because at that point I have a very hard time understanding what that worth means.

If I were forced to, I could presumably imagine some situation in which the Nazi is right and I am wrong. Even if it is very unlikely, I have to allow for the possibility of this situation's existence. For me to say otherwise would imply that I know I am right, and in an abstract philosophical way I don't believe any knowledge can be certain. It seems to me that it must be possible, however unlikely, that the crazy guy on the street corner is right and the other 6 billion of us are all wrong. For me to say that my opinion is more Worthy or Valid or Important, to me, implies that I know something more surely than I really can. Uhm...that didn't quite come together, I feel like I'm missing something or at least poorly expressing myself...

However at this point I don't believe it's all that meaningful to talk about the Worth of an opinion - in fact if all opinions have equal Worth then wouldn't the term Worth (or, what we started with, Validity) carry no information and become useless?

And if we're not talking in an abstract philosophical way, then I think we're back talking about how useful, informed, etc the opinion is.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
18:16 / 09.08.07
Hmm, now that you mention it, I think that that may be a large part of the problem I perceive with the argument - it seems to imply that there is some kind of "validity" unrelated to either facts or the possible consequences of any opinions (or their expression). So, yr internet troll can rant, "But wimminz are less rational and that's just what I think and it's my opinion and it's just as valid as yours gurglegurglegurgle," and the newspaper can claim that the opinion piece on trans issues from Julie Bindel should be weighted exactly the same as the one from Christine Burns, regardless of any relation such opinions may have to reality or of their implications.

Does that all make sense?

When you say you could possibly imagine a situation in which the Nazi is right and you are wrong, in what sense do you mean right and wrong? I'm not sure this isn't mixing fact-opinion and opinion-opinion - even if, contrary to all the evidence in the world, it turned out that Jewish people were in fact in control of everything, could you conceive the Nazi's conclusion on what should be done as a result being in some way "right"?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:04 / 10.08.07
Again, it all comes down to the fact that no-one is holistically, magically "right" about everything and no-one is holistically, magically "wrong". The Nazi might know how to fix a bathtub, in which case his opinion on bathtubs is more valid than a non-Nazi who doesn't know how to fix a bath-tub. It doesn't make his opinion on Jewish people any more valid.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
10:01 / 17.08.07
So let's look at that Bakhtin, then.

It is through the essays contained within The Dialogic Imagination that Bakhtin introduces the concepts of heteroglossia, dialogism and chronotope, making a significant contribution to the realm of literary scholarship.[26] Bakthin explains the generation of meaning through the "primacy of context over text" (heteroglossia), the hybrid nature of language (polyglossia) and the relation between utterances (intertextuality).[27] [28] Heteroglossia is "the base condition governing the operation of meaning in any utterance."[28][29] To make an utterance means to "appropriate the words of others and populate them with one's own intention".[30][28] Bakhtin's deep insights on dialogicality represent a substantive shift from views on the nature of language and knowledge by major thinkers as Saussure, Kant.

It's Dialogism and Heterogloss I think are relevant here. I think they probably provide a way in which we can understand the validity of all statements in that they provide meaning - not neccesarily truth in themselves, but the fact they have been stated tells us something about the subject.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
12:51 / 17.08.07
Ah, very interesting...so if I understand this right, the opinion of the KKK member is "meaningful" in that it tells us about the KKK member himself?

I think I will have to head to wikipedia and read up on this theory a bit, it's new to me but it sounds very useful.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:55 / 17.08.07
It is - not only does he smack you in the head as all good theory should, he also makes you want to read the novels he's talking about. Bakhtin was generally on the side of the angels, despite his ideas getting pinched by people who think that the wonders of capitalism have now given "everyone a voice".
 
 
NansiBoy
17:33 / 23.08.07
Validity as a concept is to do with the process of argument that leads to an opinion rather than the direct accuracy or "value" of that opinion when expressed. The argument of a KKK member that black people should not be allowed to vote because they eat people's babies would not be considered valid unless it seemed probable that they actually did. An argument that is well constructed, logical and that ties in to the facts as they appear to be is more valid under the general use of the word, an argument that is poorly constructed, relies on faulty reasoning or that deviates considerably from or contradicts experience less so. This might mean that regarding certain topics such as religion, aesthetics and metaphysics where it might be argued that there is never any sound basis for reasoning towards a conclusion all opinions actually are equally valid (in that they're all equally invalid).

As for all opinions being equally "right" or of equal value this could only be the case if it was possible for multiple contradictory things to be true simultaneously. If communism cannot both raise and lower the overall quality of life within a society, AI will not both have and have not equalled the complexity of human consciousness by the year 2024 and Wolverine cannot both beat up and get the crap kicked out of him by Batman any opinion about these things will either be right or wrong on the basis of how closely it corresponds with the truth of reality. If the apocalypse doesn't take place in 2012 as scheduled the Aztecs will have been mistaken in their opinion that it will. As of the present moment we have no means of establishing once and for all whether or not they are correct, although we can postulate arguments of greater or lesser validity discussing the likelihood of their being so. When the big event finally does or doesn't take place they will have been retroactively right or retroactively wrong for hundreds of years and the mere fact that all of them are long since dead will not save them from our sneers and derision. Nor us from theirs, if the opposite should prove to be the case.
 
  
Add Your Reply