BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Kabalistic Correspondences Homework

 
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
 
brother george
20:02 / 23.08.07
Medulla thanks for your kind words, I appreciate them.

As a side note: the Mirror of Yesod does not only reflect Malkuth, but a bit of Tiphareth too. It is profoundly weird that a simple smiling nod from Tiphareth can forgive a whole man's past life. Just a smiling nod, no ecstatical experiences, no blinding lights, no bamboozle. A nod and a smile basically telling you in a very deep level "Its OK. Doesn't matter what you did once, only what you are doing right now".
And then you are a whole different person and its utterly mad that you wake up the other day to go to your job like any normal day.
 
 
Papess
20:40 / 23.08.07
That is excellent brother george.

A nod and a smile basically telling you in a very deep level "Its OK. Doesn't matter what you did once, only what you are doing right now".

It is no accident that the archangel Gabriel is behind us when we are performing the LBRP.
 
 
EvskiG
21:22 / 23.08.07
Just FYI, George, it's "Dolores Ashcroft-Nowicki."

A pathworking doesn't have to be a spoken or written guided meditation (as per the awful, awful examples by the Ciceros.) It also can be a working in which, after creating a setting infused with the essence of a given sephira (as per the correspondences), one astrally projects into a symbol of that sephira and looks around to see what's up. Promethea gives great examples of this for each sephira (and many of the paths).

Just realized a fourth effect of memorizing and internalizing the Tree:

(4) To create what Crowley called a "mental filing cabinet." Once you have this it provides a nifty handle for getting a ROUGH (and only rough) handle on any magical practice or even deity you encounter in the future. Does it involve love, romance, affairs of the heart? Then you might be able to analogize it to what you already know by putting it in the drawer associated with Netzach. Is it connected with dreams, the astral, a moon goddess? Then you can put it in the drawer with Yesod.

As many others here have noted, though, Ares isn't exactly Mars, and Mars isn't exactly Tyr.

One other thing that I don't think I've seen before -- once you've got the Tree and the paths down, you can use them not only as a filing cabinet but as a memory palace. Want to memorize a list of thirty completely unrelated items? Put one of them in each of the Tarot cards, in order. (For example, to memorize ball, hat, tree, picture the Fool throwing a ball in the air, the Magician wearing a hat, and the High Priestess with a tree growing out of the scroll on her lap.) Works like a charm, so to speak.
 
 
brother george
21:35 / 23.08.07

It also can be a working in which, after creating a setting infused with the essence of a given sephira (as per the correspondences), one astrally projects into a symbol of that sephira and looks around to see what's up.


Interesting. But I'm afraid I don't have much solid astral projection skills. I'm only now learning how to project Nephesh material and pulling it back in.



One other thing that I don't think I've seen before -- once you've got the Tree and the paths down, you can use them not only as a filing cabinet but as a memory palace. Want to memorize a list of thirty completely unrelated items? Put one of them in each of the Tarot cards, in order. (For example, to memorize ball, hat, tree, picture the Fool throwing a ball in the air, the Magician wearing a hat, and the High Priestess with a tree growing out of the scroll on her lap.) Works like a charm, so to speak.


I've being toying with the idea of memory palaces for use in memorizing long invocation texts because I do not have a tripod and I've grewn tired of trying to hold the script while in a stance or whatever. Makes me feel like an idiot.
But I don't know how its gonna work out, because you layer some random and easily remembered,striking images to your text which may tamper the effect. Then again if these images are harmonious to the text, it would pose no problem.

I remember encountering just one article on the practical making of a memory palace according to some old latin texts (Ars Memoriae?). Not much practical info on the subject but I'm sure one can improvise.
 
 
EvskiG
22:20 / 23.08.07
I remember encountering just one article on the practical making of a memory palace according to some old latin texts (Ars Memoriae?). Not much practical info on the subject but I'm sure one can improvise.

Derren Brown provides instructions for creating a memory palace in his latest book.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:59 / 24.08.07
As I said before, I only yesterday realized what the Mirror in Yesod can accomplish through the 32nd path and that shook me to the bones. I did not have any idea that this could be done or that it was even possible. I believe that receiving knowledge about HALF the Sephiroth can well take up more than a decade and you ask me questions about some random of them like its a walk on the park. I honestly do not know and anyone thinking that he can identify by simply relating his everyday life to a list of abstract qualities is fooling himself.

Once again, you are coming across much like a classic example of the school of thought that I am talking about and attempting to critique. There is this sense in your posts that Yesod is some totally abstract super-sphere that you - as a magician - have inquired into, and with great effort derived some special insights that have blown your mind. You have discovered something that shook you to your bones and which you never thought possible. You are outraged at the idea that someone might locate these experiences in their everyday life, as it is special arcane knowledge that you reckon it needs decades to grasp even a fleeting glimpse of.

My position is that Yesod, and all of the Sephiroth, are a map of the fundamentals of our being. Something that each of us have continual experience of every single day of our lives. We live and breathe Yesod. It's in our dreams, our reflections, our private fantasy world, or secrets and hidden impulses, everything we can imagine. It is our interface with the rest of the Tree, the mirrored surface that reflects the Universe and the light of Tiphareth - and these things too are part of our daily living experience. The talisman of Yesod is the Moon in the night sky, sometimes treacherous like a hall of mirrors, yet the very substance that we must peer through and work with to understand the other mysteries of existence described by the Tree. In Vodou, it's the magic mirror - le miroir fantastique. Yesod describes something fundamental about the nature of our being.

This, by definition, is not something that only special magicians who spend time delving into arcane areas should have direct knowledge of. None of it is. If there is any validity to this stuff whatsoever, then it must be a description of being both microcosmic and macrocosmic. We all have direct experience of Yesod every night when we go to sleep and slip into dreams, when we enter into vivid daydreams on the train to work, when we live in our illusory inner worlds and filter the experience of our senses through this lens. This, for me, is where Qaballa gets most interesting. The Sephiroth of the Tree of Life really do describe our living experience, and "magic" is located right here in every step and every breath of our being. It's important stuff. It seems to be totally missing from a lot of people's sense of this material. I think that should be addressed.

There's almost an exotic othering of the Sephiroth, in a lot of discourse around these matters, they are almost always pitched as secret worlds that the Adept peers into - like Dr Strange scrying through a portal. I think that is real obstacle to an understanding of what this map is actually describing. It's almost like there is a chronic fear of "mundanity" and an escapist desire to look everywhere for magic except directly under our noses in the living world that we are a part of. It's like someone looking for their glasses when they are on their head all the time. Here it all is. In the world. In our experience. In our being. Right here and now. What else is there but this?

I think that the only purpose of the rituals and exercises is to lead you to that - where you are living the Tree of Life - and it's not a lofty goal to attain to, so much as a deep understanding of our nature, the nature of our being and of the Universe, and the microcosmic and macrocosmic relationship between the two. I brought this up in this thread because all the posts so far seemed to be taking this well worn path of delving into ancient tomes and trying to make sense of all of this material, without much sense of any relationship between these discrete magical worlds of symbolism and the magical world that we actually exist in. Focusing on the idea of the thing, rather than the thing itself.

Now for reasons that I don't quite fathom, all of this seems to be shockingly controversial and has got various parties into a horrendous flap. The notion that Qabala might not be an escapist magical mystery tour that reinforces our sense of ourselves as special mystic explorers with arcane knowledge, but actually something that every living thing experiences in every moment. I think it's fairly apparent from the literature that the Tree of Life is supposed to be a map of existence, both microcosmic and macrocosmic. Which means it is a map of our existence - the one that we live each and every day, whether we are a magician or a window cleaner or a hairdresser.

I think that this is an important thing to try and wire back into our understanding of these matters - something that should really be right at the forefront of our engagement with this material. Here it is - the Tree of Life. We're living it right now. All of the exercises and pathworkings really ought to be a support towards this remembering of our nature and the nature of our existence, rather than a solipsistic end in themselves that in a lot of instances seems to actually carry us even further away from the core of our experience into abstract worlds of symbolism that have long since lost their direct connection to our actual life and world, and are inhabited largely for their own sake and because it is in books.

Why should I sacrifice my little time and try to prove to you that something is A where you see it as B ?

Well I'm sacrificing a huge amount of my time to try and get my point across right now, in the face of much aggression. I was not aware that there was a language barrier between us, which I would imagine is a big factor in your initial misunderstandings of what I'm on about and where I am coming from. I was making my point quite reasonably and without snark, until you broke out the exclamation marks in response to my post without really seeming to read and understand what I was attempting to convey - which was frustrating. If you make strong statements like that in a debate with me, expect to be pushed to elaborate and expand, or don't make them. I'm sorry if my manner was brusque yesterday, but I had limited time and was frustrated by responses from people who didn't seem to have really read or understood the point I was trying to make.

Similarly, I had no snark with Medula until the smug comment about how much I make her chuckle, like some remedial child whose efforts trying to form a sentence have caused amusement. That's fairly annoying, and I'm not likely to respond well to it. Especially since her comments also seemed to totally miss the point of what I was trying to say. There's no snark without fire, as they say.

Ev: Thanks for that. Interesting stuff. Will respond in full later this afternoon.
 
 
brother george
11:23 / 24.08.07
Bye.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:38 / 24.08.07
Cheers for that, Brother George. Really useful and engaging stuff, as ever.
 
 
Papess
11:39 / 24.08.07
Similarly, I had no snark with Medula until the smug comment about how much I make her chuckle, like some remedial child whose efforts trying to form a sentence have caused amusement.

Oh Gypsy, can you have a lighter heart, please? It was not meant as an insult. It is just that the Sephiroth are abstractions for the most part. At least until the skill that Ev was tlking about can be developed, (the one about making associations) and that is applied to real life.

Must you throw everything I said out and not communicate with me on an adult level because you totally mistook a slight bemusement from me? I am really sorry you took it that way. However, it is such a shame that an adult such as yourself cannot tolerate a little lightheartedness, so much so, that you cannot have a proper adult discussion with me afterward.

Please understand that that I thought I could be a little playful and not have it taken as some sort of insult. The image of a couple of highfalutin magicians came to mind...with hats, talking in abstractions! I wish you hadn't taken it so personally so, maybe all the work I had put into responding to your questions might have been engaged with.

I can't believe that is all you bothered with, Gypsy. It makes me so sad. Can you accept an apology from me since I hurt your feelings and try to engage with me despite the misunderstanding?

Also, I apologize for taking this thread off-topic in order to try to clear this up.
 
 
brother george
11:48 / 24.08.07
I edited my post to include this but apparently there is some delay for moderation.

Gypsy, if you cared enough to take time to really read my post, you would read that what I discovered that shook my bones was really something about my self and my life. When this realization came to pass, I found that I was now able to change this , which previously I thought this to be impossible. And this was made possible through the Mirror of Yesod.

But anyway, I'm done with all this and please do not direct any more replies to me. Thank you.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:27 / 24.08.07
Can you accept an apology from me since I hurt your feelings and try to engage with me despite the misunderstanding?

Yes, that's fine. You know I love you all really.

However, it is such a shame that an adult such as yourself cannot tolerate a little lightheartedness, so much so, that you cannot have a proper adult discussion with me afterward.

Please see the 1,000 words I wrote above in an attempt to calmly clear up and elaborate upon any misunderstandings that may have arisen out of my previous posts...

It is just that the Sephiroth are abstractions for the most part. At least until the skill that Ev was tlking about can be developed, (the one about making associations) and that is applied to real life.

You see I would dispute that they necessarily are abstractions, unless they are approached as such. And I'm not totally convinced that the practice of memorising tables of correspondences is really the best way of inhabiting the sort of space where you have a deep instinctive understanding of the Sephiroth as facets of your being and everyday experience. I'm not sure that those points on the graph actually line up directly, to the extent that the received knowledge of 19th century western occultism would have us believe. I think you can take a different approach to internalising this stuff that does not have to be so strictly rooted within the traditional "filing cabinet of experience" model that everyone seems to be operating from. I think you can take a more organic, instinctive and internal approach to apprehending the mysteries of the Sephiroth by looking for these mysteries as they move through your life and your existence on the planet. Start with your experience, what is happening in your life, your relationships, what you receive through your five senses - as your starting point for trying to understand these forces; rather than starting with a list of received correspondences that you try to drill into yourself. Does that make sense?

Gypsy, if you cared enough to take time to really read my post, you would read that what I discovered that shook my bones was really something about my self and my life.

I did read your post, and I've just read it again. I'm sorry if I didn't immediately pick up on what you were on about in that last bit and how you attempted to relate the results of your practice to a fundamental internal change in your life. But you were very vague and abstract in your brief description of this, and it was buried beneath the bulk of your post which was about contact with Archangels. As you commented yourself, it was a bit of a flaky description. I wasn't really left with much sense of what you were really talking about, and the bulk of it came across as more abstract esoteric meandering of the exact sort that I was attempting to critique. I'm sorry if I've ruffled your feathers here, but simple explanations - not couched in overly mystical language - can go along way. It is also possible to talk about your experiences in such a way that you don't have to go into personal stuff that you would rather not publish on a public forum. A lot of people posting here manage to do that quite successfully and I've got rather used to it. So when I ask a straight question and get a vague and convoluted answer, it gets frustrating. Again, the language barrier is probably a big factor here. Please put your coat back on and sit down again, I have a virtual pint of guinness and an outrageously strong virtual "jazz cigarette" to pass you as a peace offering.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
13:07 / 24.08.07
Some wise words on Kabbalah and daily life from Colin Low:

What is important is not to treat practical Kabbalah as something separate from normal life, but to use normal life as the stimulus to put Kabbalah into practice - this is a traditional Kabbalistic idea. If you can't do it in ordinary life, you can't do it.

from Notes on Kabbalah

I practiced Kabbalah for about eight -nine years before moving on to other things. I found the practice of the "Hermetic Art of Memory" (Frances Yates' book "The Art of Memory" is still, IMO, one of the best works on the subject) invaluable in memorising elements. When I started this practice, I was working in a large modern hospital block, and I used the different floors & offices as a basis for a "memory palace", so that my day-to-day round was overlaid with whatever I was attempting to memorise - for example visualising a dolphin atop a heap of sand (i.e. Sandolphon) "overlaying" the telephone in the nurses' station.

I'm not totally convinced that the practice of memorising tables of correspondences is really the best way of inhabiting the sort of space where you have a deep instinctive understanding of the Sephiroth as facets of your being and everyday experience.

Creating correspondence linkages between all manner of items as an intellectual exercise is interesting to a point (and, IME, somewhat addictive) but I agree with George's comment that Going through tables of correspondences in your head amounts to little or nothing at all. Of course one can investigate correspondence linkages through living them - wearing clothes of the colours associated with the Sephiroth being an obvious example, or experimenting with perfumes or blending incense. A friend of mine who was helping me explore Kabbalah suggested "Kabbalistic meals" as a means of spending an enjoyable evening, and discussing how the food we were eating reflected the interplay of the sephiroth. So for example, for me, rich, golden butter had an obvious connection to Tiphareth, but also Netzach.
 
 
Digital Hermes
14:25 / 24.08.07
It would seem to me, that to be able to have a kabbalistic meal, or wear clothes that are conciously colour-coded to the Tree, you need to have some of the theories down, right?

From the beginning, my own desire to learn more of the correspondances was simply to make my knowledge of the tree more instinctual, as per the martial-arts metaphor I applied in a previous post. I would prefer to recognize Tiphareth in my meals, particularly as the meal has come together and tastes good. (That said, if it's a little bland, I could add some Geburah spice to heat things up a little!)

The associations I made above are from memory, and might be skewed, mispelled, or otherwise off-kilter from the tree. That's half the reason I want a better handle on interacting with the Tree. I do think that it's a good symbol-set, a powerful way of interacting with everything from a cup of coffee to a ritual working, and I'd like to be able to use that symbol set easily.

The best method I've found to learn the Tree is to interact with correspondances, maybe come up with some of my own. Not agreeing with Crowley or Regardie or anyone out of hand, but at the very least thinking over their choices, and in the process, having a greater understanding of the kaballah on a day-to-day level. I'm not opposed to having that relationship with the Tree; in fact, I strongly desire it. But how do you have that constant living relationship if you don't take some time to learn the system?

Some of the debate on this thread has centered around how one uses the tree; I think both points are valid and neither are mutually exclusive. In face, I think if you can recognize the influence of a sphere out your window or down at the pub, it will only re-inforce and support your mystical workings. As I've stated, my currant goal is to simply LEARN the tree. Is looking at correspondances and reading books that bad an idea? I'm not opposed to the idea of recognizing it everywhere, but don't I have to learn what to look for?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:03 / 24.08.07
No, obviously it is rarely a bad idea to read as much as possible on any subject with which you wish to make yourself more familiar. I was never saying there is no value in turning to the books and the accounts of others. That would be silly. My point is that the Sephiroth do not just exist in these endless categories and correspondences, whether you are talking about correspondences derived from Crowley's 777 or your own personal correspondences that equate rice pudding with Kether or poached eggs with Tiphareth.

I would personally question this whole filing cabinet business for categorising the minutia of your experience into convenient boxes attributed to the Sephiroth. That is so not what I am getting at. I see the Tree of Life as a diagram that describes our being itself, and rather than trying to fill the Netzach drawer of the filing cabinet with random bits from here and there - a fragrance of perfume or a character from a comic book, a tasty meal or a particular plant - an alternative approach would be to understand Netzach as a fundamental part of how we actually experience the world, our relationships and interactions with others, our responses to nature, the vividness of our senses. Something that is actually a part of our being, rather than a collection of objects. Netzach as a constant force in our life that manifests in all sorts of different ways in our living experience, rather than Netzach as an empty drawer in a filing cabinet that you then try to fill with a collection of objects.
 
 
Digital Hermes
15:24 / 24.08.07
At the core, are you basically saying that the Kaballah should fade into the background? Are you saying the very act of recognizing the influence of Yesod in a scriptwriting session is cataloging the sphere too specifically?

If that's the case, than I'm not sure I can agree. Using etymology as an example, having an awareness about the evolution of a word can sometimes enrich the language that you use every day. Likewise, if I conciously recognize Yesod's influence, thereby recognizing the connection everything has to the tree, am I over-organizing, or just putting it into a filing cabinet?

(It's also possible I'm still not totally clear on your position here. If not, please elaborate. In fact, if you could do so with an example of your own integration of the Tree into daily life, in a non-filing-cabinet sort of way, than that would clarify to me your position immensely.)
 
 
Princess
18:02 / 24.08.07
Offtopic: I want to talk about memory palaces. That's a temple thread, right?
 
 
EvskiG
18:36 / 24.08.07
I don't see why not.
 
 
Princess
18:37 / 24.08.07
I was worrying that it wasn't strictly "magical". But I suppose it fits under "applied psychology" doesn't it.

Okey poke.
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:46 / 24.08.07
I will contend that you are talking from the point of view that all sephirah are in malkuth, i accept that and each sephirah in malkuth also has another model of the tree ad infinitum. But it is also possible to talk about geburah in yesod and then elements of the tree in geburah that is in yesod. The idea of sephirah in sephirah in sephirah ad infinitum is to express How all is involved in the fullness of creation and expresses what you are contending in another way. That is not abstract if experienced. Nor are other realities. If you reduced eveything to sensory experience as a qualifier, understand that those judgments based on existence are also abstractions, just as the eye abstracts a certain amount of the visual spectrum, its not the totality of reality(s).

Their are other levels of reality, just look at merkabah mysticism, they are the heavens of a divine creation, the kingdom is only a part of the picture. Not to be under valued but not to be over played either.
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:48 / 24.08.07
Let me put that another way, gravity is an angel as well as a physical force.
 
 
Papess
12:23 / 25.08.07
Can you accept an apology from me since I hurt your feelings and try to engage with me despite the misunderstanding?

Yes, that's fine. You know I love you all really.


I am glad that we can continue peacefully. I also hope that in the future

All? Everyone of me? Really? We are all very honoured. *grin*

However, it is such a shame that an adult such as yourself cannot tolerate a little lightheartedness, so much so, that you cannot have a proper adult discussion with me afterward.

Please see the 1,000 words I wrote above in an attempt to calmly clear up and elaborate upon any misunderstandings that may have arisen out of my previous posts...


Well, it seems you still haven't thought about and engaged a discussion with me about anything I wrote regarding the senses and the Supernals.

It is just that the Sephiroth are abstractions for the most part. At least until the skill that Ev was tlking about can be developed, (the one about making associations) and that is applied to real life.

You see I would dispute that they necessarily are abstractions, unless they are approached as such.


Let me first of all agree with you. They are not just abstractions. However, when talking about the ToL, especially in referencing correspondences, one (such as yourself) might get the impression that this is all that those people discussing it seem to care about.

At the beginning, when I was first studying ToL, (oh, some 20 years ago) it took me a good year at least, to order my universe by using the correspondences and the filing system method. It was a gradual process, but I have to tell you, I was obsessive! BTW, I think brother george is still in the organizational aspect of the process - thus, the wrong person to answer your questions. In fact, I am not surprised that your questions have frustrated ze.

If you understand the CMs use of the Tol as a process, and relate it to, perhaps, like learning high school science, then you might be able to better understand the curriculum.

First there is a lot of memorizing of elements, then some theory. Then there is actual, practical application to one's life. Maybe the CMs you have met haven't got the entire lesson and are stuck on the elemental table of the ToL? I am not sure, as I have not met them. However, there are real applications, you are right, but the abstractions are needed in order to learn to apply the knowledge properly. It is just the first step - making correspondences.

One needs to be patient with one's self (and others) during the step. It can get a little frustrating and tedious as we watch what we perceive as a narrow-minded beginner stuff every aspect of their life and knowledge into neat little boxes. I get a grin, because I know that there are at least two points where those boxes will be blown to little bits, and the contents will have to be reordered. (But it also gives me great concern for the CM during those times). And at the other point, it will have to be let go of completely. BUT, I don't want to spoil things for the beginner! I have to be patient and allow them to complete their courses. Abstractions are merely a starting point.


And I'm not totally convinced that the practice of memorizing tables of correspondences is really the best way of inhabiting the sort of space where you have a deep instinctive understanding of the Sephiroth as facets of your being and everyday experience.

Well, I hope what I stated above helps you understand what place the tables have. Imagine trying to do chemistry without knowing your elemental table! The same goes for alchemy!
 
 
Unconditional Love
18:00 / 25.08.07
Okay an example of abstractions and correspondence coming together over the time line of somebody's life to form a coherent subjective meaning.

When i was 17 or 18, i did my first bit of shamanic tunneling trying to find my totem animal, i came back with a goat called christos. That confused me, a goat who was a christ? It seemed like a contradiction at the time.

Later through research into the nephilim i encounter the figure of azazel which leads me through an abstract trail blaze to melek taus, iblis, the lord of the seirim (goat figures) and the the symbolism of peacocks.

In alchemy the peacock is a symbol for the awareness of the body of light and also apotheosis, the beauty of light and the wonder of sight.

Jesus the lord of light and love (lucifer) is similar in fuction to azazel the yom kippur goat whom is sacrificed for the communitys sins and then cast from a cliff in the desert. Jesus also absolves the communitys sins through his sacrifice. The divine fool of the tarot walks off of the cliff edge in total faith. Knowing that the innocence of a child will carry him through no matter what.

For me to reconcile a capricious nature with a fallen angel, jesus christ and the innocence of a child, allowed me to approach my own unconscious processes through the use of symbology to make an understanding of some of the forces in me that are unconscious.

What has been revealed has massively effected my perceptions and my relationships to others and how i process information, including my ability to comprehend phenomena around me and then relate in a more merciful way to what i see and interact with.

I work with a peacock feather on my altar because of all it means symbolically too me, i am still looking at this area from the point of view of feri tradition which i have yet to explore properly and one particular book which i hesitate to read as it has made similar associations that i have.

The process may of seemed disjointed, but by looking at the symbolism brought forth it has given me an idea of how my unconscious processes connect and how they can heal me also revealing that these forces have very real sensory phenomena associated to them.

The important part is that in the healing, this has allowed me to heal some of the relationships in my life, not only to my own self but to others around me as well.

I can see where the dangers lie in escapism, but each aspect is as much a part of the self as it is the environment, once that is understood our self perceptions begin to create more effective relationships to our environment. The mind and its phenomena are just as real from a certain way of looking.
 
 
Unconditional Love
18:30 / 25.08.07
Another important point regarding correspondence is the diversity of symbolism and the plurality of connotation and meaning. Not only does this provide insight into other cultures and there philosophies in a multicultural world it gives a friendly point of reference that is inclusive of cultural difference.

These abstract notions are the fundamentals behind many different forms of cultural understanding, whether they be the classical notions of the Greeks, Christian thought or Hindu and Jewish. The thoughts embodied their in, in those traditions then become accessible through research and actively working with them. This opens somebody to greater influence than they may have previously recieved. Also perhaps improving their ability to relate to people of differing cultures to the one in which they have grown in, allowing them to actively pursue the prejudices they may have grown up with.

For me the correspondence can teach alot about the different natures of human relationships.
 
 
EvskiG
13:25 / 26.08.07
Jesus the lord of light and love (lucifer) is similar in fuction to azazel the yom kippur goat whom is sacrificed for the communitys sins and then cast from a cliff in the desert.

Oh, for fuck's sake.

OK, in your personal mythology you might equate Jesus with Lucifer. Fine with me, but, as I'm sure you're aware, that's a pretty quirky view.

But Azazel isn't the "Yom Kippur goat." One of the goats sacrificed on Yom Kippur before the fall of the Temple in Jerusalem (about 2000 years ago) was intended FOR Azazel, which, as we've discussed before, may essentially mean "for tossing off a cliff" or "for leading away and abandoning." Later Azazel came to mean a particular named demon. But Azazel =/= Goat.
 
 
Unconditional Love
17:16 / 26.08.07
As i stated something totally subjective to sort out my own unconscious, nothing related to any actual world traditions what so ever in that particular context, those were ways i needed to interpret information to sort out forces at play inside of me. The correspondence does not actually have to be in conformity to academic knowledge to operate as a healing process within the magician, that is the important part for me if it heals and creates greater self awareness.

I am not going to claim the relationships are anything but subjective, and from my point of view alot of experience is subjective.
 
 
Unconditional Love
17:37 / 26.08.07
Azazel is a name falsely attributed to the peacock angel, he is sometimes called Aziz meaning precious one by the yezidi

At the time i was researching this information wasn't avalable
So from a real world view point their indeed is not alot of connection and it is very quirky, perhaps because of the satanising of the peacock cult since the 18th century by muslims and christians.

Yet even though those correspondence were not accurate they worked at revealing my own unconscious processes to me at the time, i find that pretty interesting. It sort of says to me that the mental phenomena and my perception are not as important as the interaction and the relationship formed by them, that the unity created by interplay of factors is where alot of the working process is taking place and not actually in the phenomena.
 
 
Digital Hermes
13:52 / 27.08.07
The correspondence does not actually have to be in conformity to academic knowledge to operate as a healing process within the magician, that is the important part for me if it heals and creates greater self awareness.

This might be crossing a line, but if what you're saying here is that the process you went under shouldn't be held to any outside organizational influence, because it happend inside you, doesn't that sort of remove the actual magic from it? By making it entirely internal, it might become more subconcious mechanisms than an interaction with forces at play in the world.

You stated that this event happened at the age of 17 or 18? Could it be possible that some of what you assume are 1-to-1 attachments were instead symbols in some way obscured? Theories or ideas that you either hadn't come in contact with or hadn't internalized showing up in ways that you didn't have a yardstick for?

Rather than dismissing 'academic knowledge' because it happened inside you, it might be more fruitful to either debate or explore why symbol-sets you've worked with are in divergence with what others have likewise explored.
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:40 / 27.08.07
Depends largely on whether you consider internal and external to be separate , i do not from experience, i do not hold to the psychological approach to magic but do consider it to give me a perspective of relative sanity and a stepping stone away from practice to look over my shoulder.

I think what i am hinting at is that academic and cultural sources that can seem to lend a sense of the objective to correspondence to me appear as consensually held subjective inference.

I am beginning to see the magic in the charge, i believe that correspondence may well act as a form of fetishism, the obsession with collating forms of consciousness into meaningful groups to create a certain emotional and passionate charge when those correspondence are recognised by consciousness in everyday life, then hits an internal set of coincidence like experiences as the correspondence become more subconscious mechanisms of interaction. For me it is that charge that contains the magic, the perceiver and the perceived come together to intensify the magnitude of that charge with meaning and structure and context to give the content life, the magic in the unity of notions of self and other, for a moment at that point of seeing or knowing correspondence a link is formed between abstract networks of information and actuality that begs a more meaningful relationship, infusing the world with a complex set of symbolic wonder. Creating cross cultural multi faith networks of self expression and reiteration of self organised personality into new forms of relation and meaning.

Its not that i dismiss academic knowledge, in fact i regard it of great import in my practice, which is why i laud the fact of not having access to better information above at the time, i don't perceive it as the science of information to be a be all and end all of explanation, but then my personal practice is largely driven by meaningful art and expression without too many rules, my magic takes root in poetic meaning, ritualised art, painting, music etc. I gather alot of inspiration from academic sources but i don't relate to them as authority, just another source of meaning to inspire a passion for the magic i am engaging with. Passion and expression is everything to my practice.

It is very much the case that these obscured symbols did not have a one to one relationship, more like a wild violent dance in my mind for a long time, which after a while even thou i still find them interesting symbols can put far too much strain on my mind at least. Thankfully some of them are no longer performers.
 
 
Papess
15:45 / 27.08.07
Does someone want to discuss what I wrote upthread?
 
 
Digital Hermes
17:58 / 27.08.07
I'd love to respond, though I'm going to be a pain and ask you to rephrase/repeat. The thread's drifted a bit from where it started, so I'm not sure what element of your postings you're looking for a response towards...
 
 
Papess
20:26 / 27.08.07
Just scroll up past Wolfangel's subjective experience and there you are, Digital Hermes. Posted on the same day as Wolfangel's initial post on their experience.
 
 
Digital Hermes
14:03 / 28.08.07
It seems like a resonable argument: You've got to know the formula and structure before you can abandon it. Is that the core of your position?
 
 
Papess
14:49 / 28.08.07
Yes, Digital Hermes. That is my position.

It is hard to single out instances of application as well, at least for myself, because the ToL has been so ingrained into my daily life through applying the correspondences for so many years. If I take, GL's example of "riding the bus", after doing this for so many years I have realized that I cannot equate doing that with just one path or sephira., but there is the totality of the ToL at work in every action and circumstance I am in. Sometimes the associations are very personal, as well, or only good in certain situations. They may not work for everyone, as in the case that Wolfangel described.
 
 
Pyewacket The Elder
17:53 / 28.08.07
Medulla - Just wanted to nip in and say that you totally gave me a 'Eureka moment' when you mentioned Gabriel being behind..I love it when a plan comes together, thank you.

Also am appreciating your reasoned and thoughtful comments throughout. Will be back soon with some updates on my music/magick correspondence work.
 
 
Papess
18:05 / 28.08.07
Glad to be of service, IVoR, and thank you. I am glad it makes sense for at least one person! A possible two or three people...maybe. It sure isn't easy to communicate intellectually about some things. Thank you for the feedback.
 
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
  
Add Your Reply