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Pop Culture vs. Old Culture

 
  

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illmatic
03:37 / 11.06.07
Gods are social creatures/constructs, whereas the chaos magic approach is fairly antisocial and individualistic.

Zippy, you've more or less nailed much of my current best thinking on this subject. Excellent post.


That is a great post, Id. I would add that to conflate pop cultural figures with Gods to me shows a lack of depth in one's reading and study, if anything. Not that academia is everything but well, my own dalliances with antropological reading bring out, for me, the depths and complexities of Gods - the way the anxieties and concerns of societies are negotiated through their construction and worship. My favourite example is probably Karen McCarthy Brown's Mama Lola- for instance, the section of Ezili Freda and the three Ezili - the way the forms of this Goddess negotiate different problems faced by Haitian women and issues of race, class and gender.

Seems to me there are fundamentally different processes at work there than in the construction of cartoon figures by artists and writers which are there turned into corporate franchises. I actually would find studying the process by which this happens worthwhile - I teach Media Studies after all, it'd be of direct relevance to me - but I don't like the conflation of the two.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
09:12 / 11.06.07
On the subject of archetypes, and to refer back to Mako's idea of a "limited avatar": I don't see what this means exactly.

An avatar is essentially an embodiment of a quality, or concept; giving it a descriptive term denotes the degree of embodiment, such as "current avatar" referring to the present state of the concept, with a nod towards that concept that it can/will/has changed in the future or past. For instance, your current avatar on Barbelith is Ilhuicamina and your past avatar on Barbelith was tezcat.

If I were label Dracula as being an avatar of the Vampire archetype, this would be incorrect - the Vampire archetype, whilst being added to greatly by Dracula, is not fully embodied by Dracula. Saying that Dracula is a limited avatar is correct, in that Dracula is a limited representation of the Vampire archetype; saying that a kid dressed as Dracula is a limited avatar of the Vampire archetype is also correct, though it doesn't give weight to their contributions to the archetype, and so it's perhaps better to label him as a limited avatar of Dracula.

I think archetypes are very knowable, and instantiations of those archetypes in either Pop Culture or Old Culture are clearly recognizable.

As previously stated by Benjamin (but call hir Ben) the archetype of Mother, for example, is unknowable, but the manifestations of the Archetype (ie The Elder Mother, Gaia, Mary etc.)are not.

Tricksters are a bundle of contradictions, but specific contradictions: estranged from family/community

Some Tricksters are, sometimes, but not all and not all the time, which is why the Trickster archetype is unknowable.

For instance, Coyote, Crow, Wolf, Dog, and all the animals of the forest, were in meeting about when winter should come; Coyote was feeling a little down because his beautiful fur had been lost in a bet (though luckily some mice had taken pity on him and given them some of theirs, hence why his coat is so patchy) and the praise for beauty that was once his, turned to Crow and his shiny feathers.

As the night wore on and the meeting continued, Coyote took responsibility for stoaking the fire, which he did with logs covered in pitch. Eventually, Dog suggested that winter should come when his hair grew long, and as no one had come up with a better idea, it was decided that winter should come when Dogs hair grew long. The meeting finally over, they partied ways, however not before realising that Crows shiny feathers had turned black from the smoke.


Now in that story, Coyote is a limited avatar of the Trickster; he isn't estranged and turned away, no one is hostile towards him. In the majority of stories I've encountered with Coyote, he isn't alienated and hated unless he's actually done something to deserve it, but by the next story he's back at where he began.

Whilst in that story he's not fully the Trickster archetype as you've described it, he is living up to it in many ways - he contributes to the evolution of the community by turning Crows feathers black, he was entangled by his own strategem (gambling) and so lost his coat, etc.

Dennis, for example, has a stable home life and a structure which he doesn't violate.

Dennis does violate his home life in that he's consistently getting into trouble, and upsetting his parents because of this; they're constantly trying to explain his actions to others, and putting up with the disdain of the community because he is their son.

Whilst I see similar elements in Dennis as I do Coyote, just as I see similar elements in Coyote as I do the Trickster archetype, I don't think that Dennis is as poweful as Coyote, and I'm going to avoid saying that Coyote isn't as powerful as the Trickster archetype because that'd offend him and I like him too much to do that.

Now the difference is, as Zippy has made clear, the amount and type of energy that Dennis and Coyote have - I can recognise his being part of the Trickster archetype however I don't think Dennis is about to mess me up, or make me laugh as hard, as Coyote is. Sometimes however, working with Coyote is a little too much - he's too intense and opinionated for my own good, so in some circumstances it's just not good to invoke him, just as it's not good to use a gun to open a beer bottle.

I think the key distinction to make is to distinguish the action or the moment when Pop Character X is channeling the trickster archetype, rather than seeing Pop Character X is a "limited avatar" of the trickster.

To me there is no distinction between the two, especially when given that (as you've pointed out) some characters, both pop cultural or old cultural, exhibit different characteristics of other archetypes at different times; this goes back to what I've said previously about archetypes being unknowable, as their limited avatars draw upon other archetypes as the occasion demands, and so blur the lines of understanding those archetypes even further.

Something I'm curious about is how others feel about the representation of Gods in pop culture, whether as clear inspiration for characters such as Wile.E.Coyote or Gandalf, or as being represented as them such as Coyote in The Simpsons episode The Mysterious Voyage of Homer.

Personally I don't mind in either case, however I prefer that the sources are treated with as much accuracy and respect as the medium allows; I think that in the Simpsons this was done, especially given that it was voiced by Johnny Cash who was basically told by the modern music industry that his music was no longer relevant - he then went on to create some highly influential albums and died before anyone really apologised, apart from giving him a grammy. Seems like something Coyote would do.

 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:45 / 11.06.07
Isn't The Simpsons a satirical comedy show? Isn't the reason Cash was cast more to do with the fact that his voice sounds rich with wisdom and resonance, whereas in fact Homer's spirit guide coyote offers only unhelpful cryptic aphorisms - thus, comedy?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:47 / 11.06.07
I have Dennis the Menace, the UK version in the black and red stripey jumper with Gnasher, on my Ellegua altar. He's a child who plays tricks and wears the colours of Ellegua. That's good enough for me. Dogs are also often associated with crossroads deities, so Gnasher fits as well. Dennis the Menace is totally a face of Ellegua manifesting in post-war British kids comics. He's the same spiky haired, red and black jumpered, menace to society that later seemed to find its itteration in the cartoon image of Sid Vicious in the late 70s. I don't know what to make of that, but it's there, and I appropriate it and put it on my Ellegua altar. In New Orleans, I've seen the Cat in the Hat on a Legba altar. The red, white and black stripe hat, again - and that same ambivalent, slightly dangerous, trickster quality.

I understand that I'm arguing from the polar opposite position that I otherwise might be expected to take in this thread - but I'm not saying that pop culture deities and actual Gods are directly equivalent. There is a lot more to Ellegua than there is to any of these masks or roads, and I don't really have to be all that serious about the connection to use something like that as an altar image. I have an old national lottery flyer from about 2001 that has a photo of a guy on it who looks a lot like Legba, and I use that on my altar as well, but I'm not saying that the actor who posed for that photoshoot is in some way a deity.

For me, making an altar is a deeply creative process, full of weird stuff, found objects, meaningful little snippets that suggest something to me about the nature of the deity in question. So photos from pop culture, little toy statues that you get free with kids comics, bits of action figure that you find lying in the street or washed up on the beach, are all fair game.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:59 / 11.06.07
I think there's a difference between US Dennis and Scottish Dennis though. Different genre. Scottish Dennis (and his counterpart Minnie the Minx) as manifestations of the Trickster I could almost get behind. It's a while since I read the Beano but I remember our Dennis as being a lot more self-contained and wilder; he's got a mum and dad, and a cane-weilding teacher, but the warm cozy picket-fenceyness is missing somehow. There's less of a sense of an indulgent adult looking on, it's all less comfy and middle-class.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:39 / 11.06.07
Yeah, I'd agree. There is something vaguely unsettling about UK Dennis and Gnasher. Moreso even than the mysteries of Oor Wullie.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:51 / 11.06.07
I reckon our Dennis can beat up their Dennis any day of the week.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:07 / 11.06.07
Without a doubt. US Dennis comes across a lot like a proto-Bart Simpson figure. A cute but naughty kid who gets away with loads of pranks, representing a safe form of rebellion for kids to identify with - existing within reasonably defined parameters of suburban mischief.

UK Dennis, on the other hand, is more like the weird kid at school who pulls the legs off spiders, torments small animals and sets fire to your hair. You might be having fun with him now, but you know that at any minute he could turn and set that horrific fucking dog of his on you for a laugh.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:16 / 11.06.07
I'm sorry, I have to come back to this because it's going to gnaw at me till I do:

And, what do you personally get from drawing the divide between working the "shallow end" or the "deep end" of the pool?

From my perspective? Basically, I get to not let other people jump into something that could drown them. The thing about wading into deep water is that you can sink and sometmes you don't come up again.

This is not a game, people. Gods and Goddesses are not just storybook characters. They are real, They can enrich your life in a thousand wonderful ways that comic-book characters can't, and They can also fuck you up beyond all recognition. I don't want people to go into an invocation of Loki with the same attitude they'd take to a working with Bugs fucking Bunny, because Bugs is unlikely to tear your world apart for shits and giggles. Bugs Bunny will not lose you your job, break up your relationship, or total your car. Daffy Duck will not inflict you with chronic health problems for his own inscruitable purposes. Rupert Giles won't fuck up your eye or run you mad or get you beaten up in a dark alley. Batman won't visit you with terrible visions night after night if you piss him off. Dennis the Menace won't reach into your chest and stop your heart.

This has nothing to do with one-up-manship or magical snobbery. I'm genuinely sorry if drawing attention to such minor details puts any noses out of joint, but I really do not care anymore about inflicting minor bruises to the ego if it prevents someone from diving into a situation they maybe can't handle. If someone's operating a successful, functional practice out of the shallow end of the pool then it shouldn't upset them to be told that the water is deeper down the other end anyway.
 
 
EvskiG
14:41 / 11.06.07
Without disputing anything that TTS has said about deities vs. pop-culture figures, just wanted to observe that Bugs Bunny may be deeper than you think.

Indeed, Bugs has been known to tear worlds apart for shits and giggles, cause people to lose their jobs, break up relationships, and total cars.

Just ask Elmer.
 
 
Seth
14:49 / 11.06.07
Batman won't visit you with terrible visions night after night if you piss him off.

I take it you're referring to the Adam West Batman.
 
 
electric monk
15:11 / 11.06.07
Indeed, Bugs has been known to tear worlds apart for shits and giggles...

Not quite. Bugs only acts when provoked. He doesn't fuck with the construction crew cuz they're there. He fucks with them because they're digging up his home. He doesn't fuck with Elmer because he can (and he's good at it). He fucks with Elmer because Elmer intends to kill and eat him. Bugs is rarely the antagonist, and he usually ends up the fool when he is. See his race with Cecil turtle, for example, where Bugs' overconfidence is his undoing.

Bugs takes joy in messing with his antagonists, sure, but if he had his druthers he'd be munching carrots and playing the ukelele.

Not sure if that helps or hurts Bugs' standing in the Trickster pantheon, but there ya go.
 
 
Papess
15:22 / 11.06.07
I don't want people to go into an invocation of Loki with the same attitude they'd take to a working with Bugs fucking Bunny, because Bugs is unlikely to tear your world apart for shits and giggles. Bugs Bunny will not lose you your job, break up your relationship, or total your car. Daffy Duck will not inflict you with chronic health problems for his own inscruitable purposes. Rupert Giles won't fuck up your eye or run you mad or get you beaten up in a dark alley. Batman won't visit you with terrible visions night after night if you piss him off. Dennis the Menace won't reach into your chest and stop your heart.

Okay, this is where I get confused about judging one's practice: losing your job? totaling your car? chronic health troubles? beaten up in a dark alley? These are hallmarks of a good practice with a trickster deity?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:29 / 11.06.07
No, they're the hallmarks of a pissed-off trickster deity. Or a deity who's decided that such an experience is vital for your personal development.
 
 
Seth
15:41 / 11.06.07
Okay, this is where I get confused about judging one's practice: losing your job? totaling your car? chronic health troubles? beaten up in a dark alley? These are hallmarks of a good practice with a trickster deity?

Think the people who work with tricksters have it bad? Over the six months in which I worked intensively with Kurotsuchi Mayuri I ended up poisoned, paralysed, stabbed, used as an unwilling human bomb and still have to find a way of getting rid of all these extra limbs he grafted on to me.

He kept calling me "Daughter" too. Freaked me the fuck out, creepy bastard. YO!
 
 
Papess
15:46 / 11.06.07
Right. I think I understand what you are saying, TTS. If I may paraphrase: That using pop-culture icons may not have the substance enough to make decisions about rights of passage and general life lessons, to actually administer them. Something like that?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:02 / 11.06.07
Basically all I'm getting at is that there are risks attendant on working with Gods that one is unlikely to encounter when working with pop-culture figures. Gods and spirits have Their own agendas and Their own rules; if you go on Their turf you become subject to Their terms of engagement, and you don't get an exemption just because you didn't know what the rules were when you opened the door. No more than not knowing Ohm's Law will save you if you get struck by lightening.
 
 
Quantum
16:34 / 11.06.07
rather than rendering the Trickster more accessible, they limit and neuter the powerful figure. TtS

As you implied a couple posts ago, Bugs Bunny is not scary, and the edge of fear is necessary (IMHO) for a trickster to be effective. As GL said, you may be having a great time but you just know the dude's a bit of a double edged sword and you're playing with fire (I've always thought of Loki's hair as fire).
One thing I'd say- Bugs Bunny never fucked up a construction crew or totalled a car, that was just a cartoon.
 
 
EvskiG
17:00 / 11.06.07
Okay, this is where I get confused about judging one's practice: losing your job? totaling your car? chronic health troubles? beaten up in a dark alley? These are hallmarks of a good practice with a trickster deity?

No, they're the hallmarks of a pissed-off trickster deity. Or a deity who's decided that such an experience is vital for your personal development.


If I worked with a deity and saw losing my job, totaling my car, chronic health troubles, and getting beaten up in a dark alley as the results of my work with that deity, I'd fucking stop. And, if I believed in that deity, I'd be pissed beyond words at him or her.

Unless, of course, in the grand scheme of things, I thought I was getting more positive than negative results out of the relationship.

If the benefits don't exceed the costs, simply sounds like an abusive relationship to me.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:17 / 11.06.07
If I worked with a deity and saw losing my job, totaling my car, chronic health troubles, and getting beaten up in a dark alley as the results of my work with that deity, I'd fucking stop. And, if I believed in that deity, I'd be pissed beyond words at him or her ... If the benefits don't exceed the costs, simply sounds like an abusive relationship to me

I think that kind of response is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what Gods are and how They relate to mortal folk. Gods both are and are not "some guy." That is to say, They manifest as living consciousnesses, as people who you can talk to and hang out with, but They are also the Mysteries that they represent. It's not like having a mate who tries to fight you every time ze gets drunk.

If you get into a relationship with a God of X, you are inviting X into your life. You are saying "Hello, please give me a big dose of X!" If you then find you cannot comfortably accomodate X, it may well be that you need to stop working with that being--or it may be that you need to take the opportunity to learn from Hir how you might integrate X into your life in a meaningful way. This is true of all Gods, not just tricksters.

Say you start regular devotions to one of the love Goddesses in the hopes of getting Her to set you up with a new girlfriend. You set up an altar, you get hold of an icon that represents Her, you pray, you make with the incense and candles and what not; but in your day-to-day life you carry on making blonde jokes, pinching your female co-workers' arses, calling women you don't like slags or bitches, and denigrating female sexuality. Now, you have gone about getting the Goddess' attention, only to show Her that you do not really respect Her mysteries (and that any woman unfortunate enough to end up with you is going to be as miserable as sin). Think She'll be pleased? My guess is that She'll simply turn Her back on you, withdraw Her mysteries from your life. You'll be bereft of love and beauty until you manage to placate Her. That's harsh.

It's also worth noting thatwhat looks like an entirely negative experience to everyone else can have a totally different interpretation to the devotees of a God who deals in that kind of thing. F'rinstance, I know several Odin's-folk who would regard an assualt in a dark alley as a sign of favour from their God, since it's a manifestation of part of the God's nature. Ditto things like eye-disorders.

Every time I have a problem in my deity-work it always comes down to something like this. Part of the reason there's so much friction between me and my Patron at times is simply because I have enormous problems accomodating the things He represents. Those problems wouldn't go away if I could just ditch Him and go back to the way I was before all this started; I'd still have those issues, they'd just manifest in a different way and I wouldn't have an ally in my struggle to sort it all out.
 
 
Papess
18:35 / 11.06.07
If the benefits don't exceed the costs, simply sounds like an abusive relationship to me.

Yeah, I guess it would be. I don't really hold god/desses in the same light as I think, TTS does. I think because I am a Buddhist first, I view god/desses as being quite possibly, just as deluded as any human, animal or hell-being. In my tradition the god/desses are still in the cycle of birth and death and they are still subject to suffering. Albeit, they are most often more powerful than humans and live longer. But, as TTS says, they are REAL! They are not a cartoon, as Quants pointed out..shattering my reality tunnel!

And to relate that to the topic at hand - pop icons don't really make my radar as a class of being. I do find it strange to imbue one with "mojo" just so I could work with it. If I had to do that, I would just skip the pop-icon and apply my "mojo" where it is actually needed. Then again, I am not inspired by much in pop-culture. Fun entertainment, yes. Spiritually moving, no.
 
 
Quantum
19:07 / 11.06.07
I thought of a metaphor- using pop culture fictional characters works for little things but hit a maximum really quickly because they're not very well realised characters. You can use My Little Pony instead of Horse, but if you try to sit on them and ride around you'll notice the difference.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:08 / 11.06.07
I really don't believe it's possible to have an abusive relationship in the conventional sense with a God. They can be mistaken, deluded, confused, culturally and temporally adrift, and just plain wrong, but They do have wisdom and insight beyond that which is available to humans. They aren't infalliable, They're just way less falliable than us.

Also, They don't have the kinds of motivation and response that create abusive relationships between humans. An abusive relationship requires someone who feeds off misery and pain, who requires a completely unwarranted degree of power over another, who gets off on seeing someone else brought low and can't be happy unless they're making someone who loves them crawl. That's not what a God does. That's just human shite. (And maybe demons, but I don't know any demons.) If you mess with a God then yeah, They'll very likely mess back harder, but the idea you could have "an abusive relationship" in the way the term is generally used is just... I have to say, it's kind of surreal to me. Not insulting or anything, just a mismatch of concepts.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
19:13 / 11.06.07
Isn't The Simpsons a satirical comedy show? Isn't the reason Cash was cast more to do with the fact that his voice sounds rich with wisdom and resonance, whereas in fact Homer's spirit guide coyote offers only unhelpful cryptic aphorisms - thus, comedy?

Yes, it is, however the depiction of Coyote was treated with as much accuracy and respect as a satirical comedy could allow; as cryptic as the truths were, it led Homer to do exactly as Coyote had suggested and gain him greater understanding of himself (though Homer fails to realise, or appreciate this).

I wasn't suggesting that Johhny Cash was cast because of his own life story, but rather that I felt it was somewhat appropriate because of this.

And yes, UK Dennis could kick the crap out of US Dennis, however the Trickster comes in various guises (as is the nature of an archetype) that reflect the society and times from which they arise.
 
 
EvskiG
19:18 / 11.06.07
I think that kind of response is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what Gods are and how They relate to mortal folk. Gods both are and are not "some guy." That is to say, They manifest as living consciousnesses, as people who you can talk to and hang out with, but They are also the Mysteries that they represent.

I'm using the language of metaphor, of course.

More simply put, if I found a spiritual or magical practice was causing me more suffering than benefit -- whether that practice involved invoking a deity I described as Zeus, contemplating the elemental spirit of water, or bonking myself in the head with a blunt object -- I'd stop.

If you then find you cannot comfortably accommodate X, it may well be that you need to stop working with that being--or it may be that you need to take the opportunity to learn from Hir how you might integrate X into your life in a meaningful way.

I suppose the trick is determining if working with a given entity is more like taking a medicine that has some side effects or like bonking one's self in the head with a blunt object. Obviously, one doesn't want to integrate bonking one's self in the head with a blunt object into one's life in a meaningful way.

F'rinstance, I know several Odin's-folk who would regard an assault in a dark alley as a sign of favour from their God, since it's a manifestation of part of the God's nature.

They're welcome to Odin, then. I'll pass.

(Reminds me of Tevye from Fiddler on the Roof -- "I know, I know. We are Your Chosen People. But, once in a while, can't You choose someone else?")

I really don't believe it's possible to have an abusive relationship in the conventional sense with a God. They can be mistaken, deluded, confused, culturally and temporally adrift, and just plain wrong, but They do have wisdom and insight beyond that which is available to humans. They aren't infalliable, They're just way less falliable than us.

Again, I was using a (perhaps poorly chosen) metaphor.

But, again, I don't believe in Gods (although I'll readily concede that deity work can have important and profound effects on its practitioners), so it's all metaphor to me.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:28 / 11.06.07
I suppose the trick is determining if working with a given entity is more like taking a medicine that has some side effects or like bonking one's self in the head with a blunt object. Obviously, one doesn't want to integrate bonking one's self in the head with a blunt object into one's life in a meaningful way.

True, but why would there be a God of Bonking Yourself On The Head? I see the Gods as being the living embodiments of certain universal sacred Mysteries. Bonking yourself on the head isn't a sacred mystery. Nobody ever died because they didn't get headbonked enough, nobody ever fell to their knees and prayed for more autoheadbonks or the tribe would starve. If someone or thing has been worshipped as a God in the past, then it's fair to assume that Ze has something to teach us. True, that teaching might come with strings attached but that's not the same as mindlessly harming yourself.
 
 
EvskiG
19:45 / 11.06.07
(Great, now I'm obsessed with finding a God of Bonking Yourself on the Head . . .)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:05 / 11.06.07
Of course, Dennis the Menace is also a corporate property. It was interesting to see the argument that he was encouraging children to go out and challenge authority rather than play video games, when Dennis the Menace (US) is himself a video game. A video game, a TV show, a John Hughes (late period) movie.
 
 
*
23:10 / 11.06.07
Be interesting to examine the magicoreligious implications of doing magical work with/worshiping a corporate property.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:17 / 11.06.07
It was interesting to see the argument that he was encouraging children to go out and challenge authority rather than play video games, when Dennis the Menace (US) is himself a video game.

If by "interesting" you mean "provoking an almost stultifying sense of frustrated boredom; dull in that very special turkey-sandwiches-on-December-the-30th-oh-not-this-shit-again-please way that an argument becomes the umptillionth time you are presented with it" then yes, yes it was.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
02:12 / 12.06.07
Batman won't visit you with terrible visions night after night if you piss him off.

Except for those times where he can and does.

You can cultivate relationships with Pop Culture entities like Bats that DO have depth and impact and open you up to a world of independent action from said entities beyond what many would expect.

Note that I'm not calling them Pop Culture Deities, but I'm stressing the "entity". Why? Well while certain figures can be viewed as "masks" for certain deities or currents, let's face it... Dennis the Menace isn't a God. Not even in his own story. So why and try to relate to him like one?

I did deity work for years before stepping away from propitiatory practice and starting to deal strictly with smaller spirits and pop culture entities.

Why? Because the group I worked with all started to go bugfuck (in that we need to save the world, we fought X random 'god' on the astral and he wants my baby, ect) and so I stepped away from Gods (who others in the group also claimed relationships with) whom I was starting to truly work with. (Even though my experiences w/ these deities were vastly different than any of the ones my friends reported.) I stress the starting because it's a long process and I was a bit of a magickal dilettante in those days.

It's very different than traditional godwork. There's a an immensity to working with the Gods that I've never encountered with pop characters, but there's serious mojo in working with pop culture entities none the less. I've formed longstanding relationships with entities from comics, worked with them and had them intervene unbidden in my waking life. I've had my life truly and profoundly touched by my work with comics entities.

It can happen. It does happen. Sadly, in my experience, the reason that a lot of people work with pop entities is because it actually helps them maintain an ironic distance from practice. Ironic distance does sweet FA in magickal practice.

However, in my experience, there just seem to be places in the architecture of the human soul that the pop spirits can't reach (although The Great Old Ones seem to be able to get pretty close). I find working with Bigger Spirits and Gods more rewarding... in part because I can develop a propitiatory and service oriented relationship with them and in part because they just seem to be... bigger.

Also, the amount of times where Pop Spirits have come into my life unbidden are rare; whereas I've established relationships with deities who are more than willing to touch my life (in a verity of ways) completely unbidden. Is it the nature of the God (or entity) or the nature of the relationship? I don't know.

And while I still touch base with certain Pop Culture entities, I don't find centering my practice around such things to be fulfilling at all anymore.
 
 
--
02:45 / 12.06.07
Sometimes I wonder about the validity of using personal symbols as spirits or deities... that is, aspects of one's own personal inner mythology. I know this sounds vague, but over the years I've amassed a collection of sounds and images that leave an almost totemic, fetishistic imprint on my imagination... I can't quite say WHY I find these symbols to be magical, but it certainly interests me. Speaking for myself only, I'd probably have a very hard time worshipping a pop culture icon with a straight face. By the same token, however, I also don't feel comfortable working with gods from other systems, for reasons that I can't quite place... perhaps because I can't really relate to them? At least, not in the way I have to the spirits that I've channeled in my sound work and my writing. I do kind of loike how Spare created pretty much his own working system based on his own fetish images and power symbols, so perhaps that'll end up being the path I embark on in the future.
 
 
*
06:05 / 12.06.07
I keep misreading this thread title as "Pope Culture".
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:02 / 12.06.07
IMS, that group sounds like an awful experience. Glad you got yourself out of it.

There's a an immensity to working with the Gods that I've never encountered with pop characters, but there's serious mojo in working with pop culture entities none the less.

I couldn't agree more, and I don't mean to denigrate pop-culture entity work. Approached in the right spirit--wholeheartedly, without the ironic detachment you mention above--it's a meaningful practice. My intent here is not to cast aspersions on this kind of work because I do think it can be genuinely valuable. I just feel it's very important to highlight the differences between the possible outcomes of working with a pop culture entity, and long term direct-contact deity work.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
12:19 / 12.06.07
It was interesting to see the argument that he was encouraging children to go out and challenge authority rather than play video games, when Dennis the Menace (US) is himself a video game.

It that the same kind of interest as Che Geuvara being used to sell red t-shirts, commerciallly successful punk bands such as Good Charlotte singing songs like "Lifestyles of the rich and the famous", and capitalist money machines such as The Simpsons presenting the ideal of capitalism as being Mr Burns? If so that I share your interest.

I see the irony in a message conflicting with the nature of its medium, however think that sometimes that's necessary (especially in the modern era) to be subversive. Obviously there are problems when that message is itself subverted by its medium, however I don't think that's the fault of the message - as you say, Dennis the Menace is also a corporate property; he doesn't get a say in where he is presented, however he does have an established persona which allows that message to get through.

The problem is that his message in regards to 'good ole fashioned American fun' is presented in a medium that challenges that message - this isn't the case when presented in a comic strip that takes all of 30 seconds to read, however it is in a 30minute t.v show etc that reduces the amount of time one can put into practice his message. It's easy to imagine someone who was first introduced to Dennis in 1951 as being influenced by him to not grow up to be Mr Wilson, however not so easy for someone introduced to him in 2001.

Really though, the message that Tricksters convey arn't always easily learned, which is why in cultures of verbal transmission they are told again and again so that people learn them by heart, and come to consider the characters of the story as being real and not real, part of them but also seperate from them. I think my favorite type of message that doesn't get through easily is in regards to Coyote's first confrontation with a white man, where the moral of the story - don't trust a white man or you'll get skinned alive - is pointed out at the end and it's pointed out that it still hasn't been learnt, to the amusement of its audience.

I think archetypes are very knowable, and instantiations of those archetypes in either Pop Culture or Old Culture are clearly recognizable.

From "Psychological aspects of the mother archetype" by Carl Jung...

Again and again I encounter the mistaken notion that an archetype is determined in regards to its content , in other words that it is a kind of unconscious idea (if such an expression be permissable). It is necessary to point out once more that archetypes are not determined as regards their content, but only in regards their form and only to a limited degree. A primordial image is determined as to its content only when it has become conscious and is therefore filled out with the material of conscious experience... In principle it can be named and has an invariable nucleus of meaning - but always in principle, never as regards its concrete manifestation.
 
  

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