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Pop Culture vs. Old Culture

 
  

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Quantum
16:41 / 10.06.07
Spun off from the questions thread, are contemporary fictional characters (Buffy, Gandalf, Dennis the Menace) interchangable with demigods and avatars from religions? Do you consider Dennis an avatar of Coyote? Is Mumm-Ra an analogue of Kali? Is Tom Cruise's character in Top Gun equivalent to Osiris or Baldur?
 
 
Quantum
16:55 / 10.06.07
Here's a thread from '03 where velvetvandal tries to summon the Batman. I think it's interesting to note as an aside how much the Temple (then the Magick) has changed.
 
 
Quantum
17:01 / 10.06.07
Copied from the questions thread, to try and draw the conversation here-

Chris Morris is the pre-eminent living avatar of Coyote. Prove me wrong.
 
 
Princess
17:02 / 10.06.07
No.

Also, No.

Has anyone ever done something that suggests they might be? Or did the train of thought stop at "gods exist in our heads and so does buffy"?
 
 
*
17:11 / 10.06.07
One thing that comes up for me is the kind and type of emotional energy being directed at these various kinds of beings by their societies.

You could say that Giles from Buffy is kind of like Odin, or something, but only if you think they're both just characters in different stories. If you know anything about the way magic works, you know that the reverence with which Odin was regarded for thousands of years, and is still regarded even if by people who are a smaller slice of the world's population, who are more globally distributed, and who have different practices than in days of yore, is a very different thing than the amusement and narrative fixation from fans of Buffy, many and obsessed as they may be. Energy isn't all the same thing, or if you're not into the energy model, fixations aren't all empty of content. Societies full of people regarded Odin as the All-Father, the Wonder-Worker, the Sacrificer for Knowledge, for centuries, and believed him to have power in their real lives, just as many believe today. The vast majority of even the most die-hard Buffy fans believe the only power Giles has over their actual lives is to cause them momentary joy or sorrow or laughter or anger in the space of a half-hour show. These contexts are different, so the entities are going to behave differently—and, I would argue, the contexts are different because the entities behave differently. Giles has not been prone to come out of people's television sets to grant them special insight or demand they take on some heavy responsibility. Odin has been known to do these things, and there is evidence for this in the ancient texts as well as living people's experiences. If someone thinks that Odin's interference with willing and unwilling people's lives throughout history is exactly the same as a Buffy fanatic hallucinating that Giles has told him to become a Slayer (typically something he wants to do anyway, as a result of personality disturbance or organic mental illness), well, that means they don't actually believe in any of this—which is more than okay, but if so they shouldn't be telling people who believe in magicorwhateveryouwanttocallit how to practice magicorwhateveryouwanttocallit, or pretending that they do so themself.
 
 
Quantum
17:27 / 10.06.07
I agree. The suspension of disbelief is a prerequisite of watching TV or reading comics or whatever, wheras with religion you actually believe it. I think that's an important difference.

As an example, a Christian would object if you equated Christ with Resurrection Man, why shouldn't devotees of Coyote or Anansi object to equating them with the Joker or the Riddler or Dennis the Menace? Isn't it just as disrespectful and inane?
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
17:33 / 10.06.07
There's a big difference between equating two things, and recognizing similar characteristics between those two things; I work with Coyote but I don't equate him to Anansi, nor do I equate him to Dennis the Menace, nor do I equate any of them with the Trickster archetype.
 
 
Quantum
17:36 / 10.06.07
Hmm. So what's the relationship?
 
 
Quantum
17:38 / 10.06.07
Or, to put it another way, do you recognise similar characteristics between Chris morris or Jeremy Beadle (or the Candid Camera crew if you're US) and Anansi or Coyote?
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
17:45 / 10.06.07
Archetypes are essentially unknowable - not only do they evolve, but they express themselves in various forms between different cultures and individuals. Their expressions, whether they be Gods, cultural icons, or people, tend to have similar themes, however these themes vary with context and understanding.

For instance, the Vampire archetype expresses itself differently in the works of Anne Rice as it does in Malaysian folklore, however the common theme is that they feed off human life; Rice's Vampires are human and drink blood, Malaysian Vampires are reptiles that drink life energy. Both contribute to the archetype, however both are seperate entities whose only link is their contribution to that archetype.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
17:49 / 10.06.07
I think we've already covered this in regards to Dennis the Menance being a limited avatar of the Trickster archetype, and how analogies can be drawn between him and other limited avatars of the Trickster.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:53 / 10.06.07
Yes- and I for one found the argument unconvincing on a number of levels. If you mean that Dennis the Menace is a character who performs tricks, yes, very good. Otherwise, I think all of Id/Zippy's points above hold true.
 
 
gravitybitch
17:58 / 10.06.07
There's a whole lot going on here... more than just any "divide" between magic and religion:

The suspension of disbelief is a prerequisite of watching TV or reading comics or whatever, whereas with religion you actually believe it. Where do you put a magical working in this categorization? "Fake it 'til you make it" and suspension of disbelief cover some aspects of ritual for some people; for most of us there are aspects of actual belief that extend well beyond the ritual itself...


What's the point of drawing a sharp divide between a working with, say, Buffy or Spiderman versus a working with Freya or Mercury? If somebody can do a working with a pop-culture icon - tap into the power provided by the populace's "amusement and narrative fixation" and imbue that icon with enough numinosity and juice to get results, I'll give them a round of applause and a fair serving of respect. I'm hearing disdain for folks "playing in the shallow end of the pool" and a bit of "The bogeyman living in my closet is bigger than yours," and I don't think that's helpful.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
18:07 / 10.06.07
I'm not in disagreement with Zippy; there's a lot more energy behind a God, especially if they started out being a God as opposed to a God created out of cultural need that gained energy through prayer, then there is behind a modern cultural icon.

What I do think, however, is that sometimes Gods are born, and sometimes they are made - most often when they're made, they're made from limited avatars of Gods, and the process is an symbiotic evolution between the two - i.e Man decides that God wants them to behave in a certain way, Man then starts to behave in that way.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
18:22 / 10.06.07
For example, at one time a limited avatar of Odin in the form of a story about his exploits at Yule, was grafted onto similar avatars such as Saint Nicholas, with the modern result being Santa Claus; Santa Claus is a far cry from Odin, however he does have a growing energy about him that influences those who create him - i.e be good or Santa Claus won't bring you presents.
 
 
Princess
18:28 / 10.06.07
I think it's more like "is there a bogeyman in your closet at all?"

The way I try and interact with the mysteries would not work with Mumble from happy feet. I try and get overwhelmed, owned, made divine by my Gods. I can imagine using an image of Mumble to suggest a facet of my (hypothetical) Mumble-like deity, but it seems ridiculous to equate the two as equal.

Maybe a different style of working, where the deites where treated as (essentially replacable) fictions would get more mileage out of His Divine Tapdancines. But that kind of word-view is so alien and ugly to me. I want Gods. Beings who take me apart, who hold me, who challenge me, who exist without me clapping my hands and shouting "I believe in Sophia". I do deity work because I want to get lost in the real. Unreal characters just seem a bit unrelated.
 
 
Quantum
18:34 / 10.06.07
Archetypes are essentially unknowable

I'm sorry, we must be talking at cross purposes. I thought an archetype was a generic, idealized model of a person, object, or concept from which similar instances are derived, copied, patterned, or emulated. In psychology, an archetype is a model of a person, personality, or behavior. So, kinda knowable.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:35 / 10.06.07
I'm hearing disdain for folks "playing in the shallow end of the pool" and a bit of "The bogeyman living in my closet is bigger than yours," and I don't think that's helpful.

It's equally unhelpful to pretend that working with pop-culture icons is generally as powerful as working with a God, in much the same way as it is unhelpful to equate a cup of tea with a generous rail of coke because they're both drugs. I tend to find that the people who argue most strenuously for such an equivalence are people with no direct experience of working with Gods qua Gods; "godforms," maybe, but not Gods.

I have absolutely no problem with the person whose practice centres around fictional characters. It's perfectly possible to construct a meaningful, effective practice around Batman or Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Nothing wrong there. What I do have a problem with is trying to pretend that this is essentially the same as a practice centred around a relationship with a God or Gods. I'm speaking from personal experience here. I went the pop-culture route for years before I began my work with Team Norse. I don't think there was anything terribly wrong with my practice back then and I would probably have continued working that way indefinately. But I look back at it now, and contrasted with what I've been doing and experienceing for the last couple of years I have to say that yeah, I was in the shallow end of the pool. Sorry to anyone who might feel slighted by that, but it's the truth. There's just no comparison.

This is a recurring theme in the Temple. Frankly, what I get from many of these discussions is an impression of a lot of people speaking from zero personal experience who nonetheless feel qualified to tell everyone how they might as well worship Jessica Rabbit as Venus. Tell you what, try engaging in direct-contact deity work for a couple of years, then come back and tell me there's no difference.
 
 
*
18:39 / 10.06.07
I think it's a different kind of energy, iszabelle and Mako. The energy invested in a pop culture figure may be more, quantitatively (if it could be quantified), than that invested in many deities, but it's a different kind of energy, a different kind of resonance. The reverence a fan gives to Giles on Buffy is not the same kind of reverence a worshiper gives to Odin. You can try to revere Giles that same way, but you'll be working against the pop culture icon reverence he's already imbued with. Pop culture reverence predisposes an entity to behave in certain ways—i.e. to be entertaining, to act a specific character that the fan has a relationship with, to do what the fan wants or will be entertained by. Worshipful reverence depends on an entity behaving in unexpected ways, novel ways, doing things the worshiper wouldn't have thought of or desired, knowing things the worshiper doesn't have access to. If you work under the model that the reverence comes first and the entity is shaped by it, then worshipful reverence creates that tendency in a God. And it takes a whole cultural context to do that, not just one practitioner alone in a bedroom. Gods are social creatures/constructs, whereas the chaos magic approach is fairly antisocial and individualistic.

What I was trying to get at is that if you work ritual with a pop culture icon in place of a God and expect it to do what a God would do, you're discounting the effect of this different resonance. If I understand correctly, chaos magic holds that the belief makes the God, more or less, so surely the chaos magic practitioner should account for the fact that entire sets of cultural beliefs around the place of Gods and that of pop culture icons, and their different attending resonances, will create different effects. And too many don't. There's no room for this kind of attention to the different resonances of the energy in the model that Giles is an avatar of Odin or similar. You can say he's a limited avatar because he's been around for a shorter time or something but that doesn't address how, if you do a ritual with Giles, you're working with a fundamentally different set of energies. You can still do an amazing ritual with Giles, I'm absolutely sure. I've done my share of work with various characters out of fiction. But they don't work the same as Gods do, and they shouldn't be held to be the same, or interchangeable. It gives people the impression that they should treat them the same, which is either foolish and unproductive or foolish and dangerous, depending on your perspective.
 
 
Quantum
18:41 / 10.06.07
What's the point of drawing a sharp divide between a working with, say, Buffy or Spiderman versus a working with Freya or Mercury?

Because Buffy and Spiderman were invented by comic book writers, and nobody ever thought they were real. Certainly there is no religious faith in them and no temples built to them, and in fact I find it most likely that the writers take aspects of the gods or archetypes and take them as ingredients to create engaging fictional characters.

Do you think the Flash is just as real as Mercury? Even though Jay Garrick has the same hat and winged boots and is really obviously based on the two-thousand-years-older deity? Do you think if you make up a character called Zog who lives in the sky and throws lightning bolts at people and is the ruler of the gods, he's just as legitimate and real as Zeus? Really?
 
 
Princess
18:43 / 10.06.07
Quantum, I think in a strict, Jungian sense they are seen differently.

The archetype of Mother, for example, is unknowable, but the manifestations of the Archetype (ie The Elder Mother, Gaia, Mary etc.)are not.

However, that's all half remembered from a time ago. So if I'm wrong please igore.

I think the real cross purpose here is between people who believe in real, literal Gods and people who don't. If people could explain their paradigm (briefly, dear God, briefly) before making sweeping statements, that might make communication a bit better here.
 
 
Princess
18:45 / 10.06.07
x-post, again.
 
 
Seth
18:50 / 10.06.07
There was a little bit in the NLP courses about communing with fictional characters for advice, encouragement and support. I don't really have a problem with the practise these days, but one of the things that I have noticed is that many of the people who might refer to their using fictional characters as gods is that many of them never were gods in their original context. Dennis, Batman and Picard were just fictional people, and as a result the process seems more *like* dealing with fictional ancestors rather than gods. I say like, because it's not the same as dealing with ancestors. These characters have never lived in the same manner (although if you chat to any writer they do have a life of a sort) and so it's not a comparable thing. But I've done this myself, it's worked and got results.

There are fictional gods, however. In the other thread elseware spoke about his reservations in working with Death from the Sandman comics. From my own personal canon of closely loved works I could mention the Bajoran Prophets from DS9 or the Will of the Cosmos from Excel Saga (shudder). Stating from the outset that I haven't done any work with these kinds of fictional gods (unless you count the Barbelith working, but I wouldn't call that working with a god because it wasn't one in the Invisibles) I have no frame of reference for what kinds of results one might get, but as expectation can form a frame for results a bit of theorising isn't totally irrelevant. I might expect them to have a level of knowledge and unpredictability that I wouldn't ascribe to someone as one dimensional as Batman (ok, maybe two dimensional at a real push).

The thing that draws things into sharp distinction for me is that so far I have noticed a sharp difference in the accounts given by people who work with traditional gods that are accepted as such in religions worldwide and the accounts of people who have worked with fictional entities. I haven't read a single account of people working with fictional entities who were inspired to worship. I haven't read anyone falling on their face in awe before a fictional entity. I haven't read about anyone having their life bent out of shape by working with a fictional god, or being healed in some manner by working with a fictional god, or having all their deeply rooted prejudices, beliefs and assumptions thoroughly questioned and overturned by a fictional god. I'm not saying that those things haven't happened, I'm just saying that in six years of posting to a message board where there is a broad level of acceptance for these practises I haven't read any such account.

So the difference in the types of anecdotal evidence makes me wonder a good deal as to whether these things really are similar as many make out. So far – and I repeat, based on my experience up until now – it seems as though the people who are claiming fictional gods are broadly of the same type as traditional gods are selectively ignoring aspects of the accounts of people who have worked with traditional gods. Please note that this is emphatically not an argument from the position of "my god is harder than your god," it's about noticing contrasts between the accounts of various people. For example, I can't think of a single example of anyone working with the Christian god who has ever used the words "effectiveness" and "results," although in their accounts there have certainly been examples of effectiveness and results. They just haven't used those specific words. The primacy placed on the use of those words by the people whose accounts I've read also implies that there is a different baseline set of assumptions in place.

Hopefully I've avoided value judgements here. Broadly speaking these days I'm interested in what works, so *results* and *effectiveness* are very important to me. I also had a twenty three year intensive relationship with a traditional god which even now has unexpected and lingering effects, and as much I dearly love Deep Space Nine I would be flabbergasted if the Prophets arrived unbidden and could have the same kind of effect on me over a similar period of time. That's not to say I wouldn't rule out making up some kind of working to interact with them in future… I might well do. But I would lay money it not nearly having the same kind types of effects.
 
 
Seth
18:51 / 10.06.07
Um, YO!
 
 
Quantum
18:57 / 10.06.07
Okay, here's a clear example- Jack Kirby's comic book canon of New Gods, Orion and Big Barda and so on, are not the same as the graeco-roman pantheon of Jupiter and Apollo and so on.

Does anyone think they are comparable?
 
 
gravitybitch
19:15 / 10.06.07
I'll never claim that Flash and Mercury are the same, or that somebody can get the exact same results from working with either one. (And I don't actually know anybody who's working with pop icons; know a handful who are working with the current versions of big old Deities of various lineages and have seen Other staring at me out of a friend's eyes - it scares me, it does. But it scares me in a good way...)

But, that wasn't my point.

To revisit my questions: Where do you put a magical working? How much do you believe already, how much is it your religion, how much suspension of disbelief do you need?

And, what do you personally get from drawing the divide between working the "shallow end" or the "deep end" of the pool? If somebody gets the results they want from working with Daffy Duck, are you going to point and laugh? Are you going to tell them, "Hey, nice, but I work with [insert Name here] and I coulda won the lottery if I'd put some juice into it...."
 
 
Princess
19:20 / 10.06.07
Because it's not swimming if your feet can still touch the bottom?
 
 
Princess
19:27 / 10.06.07
And I don't suspend disbelief. If I don't believe then I don't believe. If I doubt then I incorporate that into my prayer. It isn't a seperate thing. I find all of those "self convincing" methods a bit painful, at least in God work. I don't want to dabble with fakeness. I want to see what already is, to have clear eyes. I don't want to just keep repainting my veil of ignorance.

(Not to imply anyone in this room is wearing such a veil, but solipsitic practice makes me feel like that and it makes me depressed. YMMV)
 
 
NyteMuse
19:53 / 10.06.07
There was a great podcast (Shadowdance) by a friend of mine some months ago about fantasy vs reality, esp when it comes to ritual. I think some of the original impetus for connecting pop icons to gods is the fact that idols and pop icons are worshiped. Does that necessarily MAKE them gods? Not that I can see (although I did enjoy American Gods *grin*). However, that doesn't mean, to me, that icons canNOT be used for ritual purposes, EVER.

IMHO, I would be squicked if someone said that a pop icon WAS one of the gods. However, being that the deities are often so huge that some people can't fully grasp their essence or image, I could see some merit in using a pop icon to represent a road/path to seeing that divinity, or possibly regarding them as an avatar. Connection to the gods is a very personal thing; how Arianrhod appears to me is vastly different from how She might appear to a close friend, even if we think very much the same. If, to me, it's easier to think of the Morrigw as looking like Xena, then I might have a Xena figurine on my altar, but I don't think Xena and the Morrigw are the same being.
 
 
Ilhuicamina
19:54 / 10.06.07
New Gods compared to the old gods: IANAM*, but as someone interested in both mythology and comic books, I would have to say: not quite. For me, Big Barda lacks the numinous quality that I associate with, say, Artemis. What Zippy said above, basically. On the other hand, I can see how someone else's relationship with Big Barda may differ substantially from my own, so there you go. And should Big Barda survive another couple of thousand years, who knows?

Despite me personally not finding Big Barda as resonant as Artemis, I don't want to detract from someone's ability to discover the numinous in comic books, or in anything, or to discern and value the movements of archetypes beneath the skin of pop culture. I find these to be admirable skills.

On the subject of archetypes, and to refer back to Mako's idea of a "limited avatar": I don't see what this means exactly. Like Quantum, I don't agree that archetypes are unknowable. I think archetypes are very knowable, and instantiations of those archetypes in either Pop Culture or Old Culture are clearly recognizable. With Dennis the Menace (I haven't seen the show but have read some of the comic strips), I strongly doubt that a show about a naughty/precocious kid captures the essence of the trickster. Tricksters are a bundle of contradictions, but specific contradictions: estranged from family/community yet contributing to the evolution/transformation of community, transgressive yet often entangled by their own strategems, innovative/creative but also gullible and often outsmarted, and so on. "Naughtiness" doesn't really cut it. Dennis, for example, has a stable home life and a structure which he doesn't violate. I can't remember any comic strips where Dennis is truly transgressive; like Calvin and all the other "precocious kid" comic strips, Dennis returns to the safe, the normative at the end of every adventure.

I think the key distinction to make is to distinguish the action or the moment when Pop Character X is channeling the trickster archetype, rather than seeing Pop Character X is a "limited avatar" of the trickster. The same character may well exhibit some of the characteristics of other archetypes at different times (doesn't this go for people, too?). "Limited avatar" suggests a misleading permanent link between the archetype and the instantiation.

*I Am Not A Magician, which probably disqualifies me from this thread. I'm refraining from commenting on magical practice because I know jack about it.
 
 
Quantum
21:30 / 10.06.07
If somebody gets the results they want from working with Daffy Duck, are you going to point and laugh?

Nope. It's not godsnobbery, but I have yet to meet anyone who has got what the results they wanted from working with Daffy Duck. I have, however, met people who've got the results they want (and some they didn't) from working with deities. I can't imagine that horsing Daffy, for example, is a common or worthwhile practice. Pop culture characters are shadows, echoes of archetypes, who are in turn (IMHO) shadows of the gods.
If someone has a deep and developed practice and a strong and fulfilling relationship with an entity, I don't care if they perceive it as Buffy or Baldur, but I do object when people say that comic book villains are just as real as gods. They're not, and it reveals an attitude to magic and deities I don't share.

 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:30 / 10.06.07
If somebody gets the results they want from working with Daffy Duck, are you going to point and laugh? Are you going to tell them, "Hey, nice, but I work with [insert Name here] and I coulda won the lottery if I'd put some juice into it...."

If someone describes a successful working with Daffy Duck then the correct response is "hey, nice!" No buts. A result is a result. If they follow up with "...and that proves that there is fundamentally no difference between Daffy and [insert Name]!" then the correct response is "nuh uh." Because what they're telling me is in direct contradiction of my own experience.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:44 / 10.06.07
To revisit my questions: Where do you put a magical working? How much do you believe already, how much is it your religion, how much suspension of disbelief do you need?

With the obvious exception for an "am I nuts?" freakout, I don't require any suspension of disbelief anymore. Most of my workings now have "communion with God/s" as the desired result, and I'm pretty damn sure They're real. You don't just forget some of the things I've seen and experienced. I don't need to suspend disbelief in the power of the Gods either, having had it vividly demonstrated to me on a number of occasions.

And, what do you personally get from drawing the divide between working the "shallow end" or the "deep end" of the pool?

I don't make so sharp a division really. It's a spectrum. I'm not really in the deep end yet; I know people who are, and I'm fuck-all like them. But I've definately swum out further than ever before; the bottom is no longer reliably under my feet, and sometimes I've found myself in over my head. As for what I get out of making the distinction: I get to honour an important part of my life experience. I get to honour my own progress. I don't think it's unreasonable to want to honour those things.

This distinction also lets us make informed choices about who we work with. One thing that the Gods are good at is changing your life in radical and important ways--even fucking everything up completely. If you don't want to take those kinds of risks (and why should you?), you might choose to work with Giles in preference to Odin. Telling people "oh, Gods are just plus-sized fictional characters, you know!" misrepresents them, perhaps dangerously.
 
 
Seth
00:03 / 11.06.07
Pop culture reverence predisposes an entity to behave in certain ways—i.e. to be entertaining, to act a specific character that the fan has a relationship with, to do what the fan wants or will be entertained by. Worshipful reverence depends on an entity behaving in unexpected ways, novel ways, doing things the worshiper wouldn't have thought of or desired, knowing things the worshiper doesn't have access to. If you work under the model that the reverence comes first and the entity is shaped by it, then worshipful reverence creates that tendency in a God. And it takes a whole cultural context to do that, not just one practitioner alone in a bedroom. Gods are social creatures/constructs, whereas the chaos magic approach is fairly antisocial and individualistic.

Zippy, you've more or less nailed much of my current best thinking on this subject. Excellent post.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
01:02 / 11.06.07
Tricksters are a bundle of contradictions, but specific contradictions: estranged from family/community yet contributing to the evolution/transformation of community, transgressive yet often entangled by their own strategems, innovative/creative but also gullible and often outsmarted, and so on. "Naughtiness" doesn't really cut it. Dennis, for example, has a stable home life and a structure which he doesn't violate. I can't remember any comic strips where Dennis is truly transgressive; like Calvin and all the other "precocious kid" comic strips, Dennis returns to the safe, the normative at the end of every adventure.

This is a very good point, and one reason why I'm pretty hostile to a reading of characters like this as manifestations of the Trickster archtype. Much as I love Calvin and Hobbes, there's a kind of reactionary element to that kind of narrative. I don't see positioning Dennis or Calvin as a manifestiaton of the Trickster as at all healthy or productive; rather than rendering the Trickster more accessible, they limit and neuter the powerful figure. Instead of a bold transgressive force that can cross boundaries, introduce novel elements, and shake up an existing structure, you have a figure who essentially functions as a componant of that structure without really challenging it. You have this minor nuisance who never leaves a permanent mark, who is easily accomodated within the dominant structure, and in fact is repeatedly shown to need the dominant structure, which in turn is assumed to have a duty of care.

This duty of care is probably the biggest reason as to why it's so very tempting for plastic tricksters to insert themselves into the Dennis or Calvin role, rather than truly embracing the Trickster. Calvin is safe. He has a secure dwelling, material comforts, and people to love and care for him in spite of all his minor transgressions. (It is pleasant to fiction that the world owes one a living and that all one's transgessions against it are equivalent to the innocent pranks of an imaginative child; however, unless one actually is a child neither is likely to be the case.)

It is notable that many of the PT's we've had around here have generally been pretty reactionary types, much given to the use of ethnic or sexual slurs and the adopting of "edgy" political stances, all of which were touted as being bold and challenging acts of transgression. In actual fact, they've almost always been safely in line with prevailing cultural mores. Homophobia, racism, the abuse of women--these have all been presented here at one time or another as edgy and transgressive, despite the fact that all these things are facts of life in the outside world. In choosing to "transgress" against small groups with little power rather than the dominant social structure, they show their true colours: a nasty yellow streak. It's my fond hope that the Gods they so freely invoke see fit to bless them. Hard.
 
  

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