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You are not a fucking trickster figure.

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Less searchable M0rd4nt

22:20 / 10.06.07

from what I remember, you would revere, praise and dwell with Trickster figures to understand them and their "realms", not proclaim yourself as one, or as it's agent in this world or whatever

Varies between paths, I think. Some pantheons stress reverence. Others, like mine, stress attempting to make your God's mysteries manifest in the world (assuming you have a particular God you're close to, which is the exception rather than the rule). So a Thorsman or woman should protect those weaker than hirself, a devotee of Freyja should strive to be loving and generous, and so on.

This unfortunately leads to a lot of people basically being arseholes and blaming it on their Gods. This can range from extreme cases where people have decided that manifesting Odin's mysteries means indulging in violence and even murder, all the way down to little erks who think that trolling messageboards makes them into living avatars of Loki. Because they've walked into the party and started insulting people! Just like in the Lokasenna! Do you see?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

22:25 / 10.06.07

Given that many of those who invoke the role of "trickster" for themselves don't seem to have much of a clue what that's all about, as per id's wonderful post above, and given that my majikkkal knowledge is not the best, can one of you Temple types please tell me if there is actually a "Tosser" archetype in any magical tradition, which some of those seem to mistake for the "Trickster"?

I can see it now.

HA! HA!
I'm rearranging your reality tunnels by painting racial slurs on the cereal boxes in Sainsburys!

I AM TEH T0553R!!!

Would such a Tosser figure have a useful role, and would it involve being eaten by a bear?

22:46 / 10.06.07

Could be the Fool, but in it's pejorative aspects, no? Or just invent Teh Az Howl (it's fairly archetypal in it's traits and describes quite perfectly).

That's sort of what I've found fascinating here (in a weird not-good way). The heights, amounts and varieties of richness is proportionate to the openess for weirdos.

00:05 / 11.06.07

Pretty much anyone who's joined this year.

OI!

00:06 / 11.06.07

Pretty much anyone who's joined this year.

I could take considerable offense at that. I'm a suave, charming figure, me.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

00:11 / 11.06.07

Can we also add to the Coyote list: I is teh Devul's Advocate! -- ? Because that's totally driving me up the wall right now.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

00:26 / 11.06.07

THE TOSSER can have many faces.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

01:08 / 11.06.07

Oh yeah, the Devil's Advocate defence. That never gets old. Always wheeled out right before the person says something utterly pig-headed and totally indefensible. "Just to play devil's advocate for a second--what if women really do have more power than men?" "Just to play devil's advocate for a second--what if gays really are more likely to molest children?" "Just to play devil's advocate for a second--what if there really was a world Jewish conspiracy?" And then when you call hir a tosser, ze disclaims all responsibility for the revolting position because ze was just playing Devil's Advocate.

Kiltartan Cross

06:36 / 11.06.07

if there is actually a "Tosser" archetype in any magical tradition

There's always Atum, although I suspect he's probably not quite what you had in mind.

Closed for Business Time

09:42 / 11.06.07

This thread and the going-ons in the Stupid Q's over in the Temple are making me go harrumphmermm. I've learned much about Tricksters (and not trixxx0rz, sorry about that Justrix, I wasn't thinking through my post properly there), who they were and what they are to different people at different times. However, my initial question a page back was meant to be read "has anyone who has posted on Barbelith from a Trickster'ish angle/utilising a ficsuit modelled on or channeling Coyote, Loke, Anansi or any other traditional trickster figure done so to good effect*?" Pardon my ineffectuality in getting that across.

*Good effect as in most everything Zippy has posted on the topic of what tricksters are and aren't.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

09:51 / 11.06.07

Not to my personal memory, no.

Closed for Business Time

10:09 / 11.06.07

... Is it even possible, given the restrictions of the medium (mostly text, no "melody" (as in prosody, non-verbal communication and the like))? Koans and other riddle-like mystical or magical devices certainly work in a text-only format, but the more I think about it, the less I believe in the possibilities of anyone channeling Tricksters onto an internet message board. Or is this just my Monday morning blues talking?

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:26 / 11.06.07

This is part of the problem. Trickster figures often find themselves willingly or unwillingly doing massively important, constructive things. This is why tricksters are often also culture heroes - like Prometheus bringing fire. Loki accompanies Thor on missions, because Loki has skills Thor doesn't - he is also instrumental in building the walls of Asgard and gives birth to Sleipnir.

This is the part soi-disant tricksters on bulletin boards often have trouble with. Not because it is impossible, but because they are eejits. As such, they do the easy bit and miss the point.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

10:38 / 11.06.07

And if one were to experiment with embodying a Trickster on teh intarwebs, I can think of a lot better places to start than a relatively small community which is already at odds with the dominant structures of society, being (or at least attempting to be) opposed to those forms of oppression that the dominant structure is so very good at--homophobia, sexism, racism, classism, et al.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, but I doubt you'd ever see these wankers playing Coyote over on the Stormfront boards, or even an average Conservative or Republican forum. That would require some actual fucking spine, a willingness to piss off someone a bit scarier than the average 'Lither. Ooh, I said the N-word and some internet peoples frowned at me! I'm so edgy!

Less searchable M0rd4nt

10:52 / 11.06.07

Trickster figures often find themselves willingly or unwillingly doing massively important, constructive things.

They may also provide valuable insights, something else the plastic trickster is singularly bad at. If you read, for example, the Lokasenna, most of the accusations therein are substantiated elsewhere in lore, and in fact the poem confers valuable insights into the nature of the Gods: Odin's power being connected with the feminine, and so on. Uncomfortable truths which nonetheless need to be aired.

This is another area where the "I crashed your party and insulted you just like Loki!" brigade tends to fall down; they have no such insight to offer. The insults and accusations are empty, groundless, trite. You're uptight. You're over-educated. You're gay. You're frigid. You just need a good shag. It's always the same shit, every fucking time.

Mysterious Transfer Student

12:31 / 11.06.07

Just to be true to the spirit of this now rather interesting discussion, I'd like to be clear that with my earlier post I didn't mean to imply that no one could or should get anything worthwhile out of the materials I mentioned. After all, again, I'd be confident in saying that quite a few people here have come through them and undoubtedly got more use out of them than I bothered to do. 'Breaking reality tunnels' might be a rather easily parodied, immature stance but that doesn't mean that it can't be a worthwhile endeavour if you approach it with humour (*not* snide wit), humility and the willingness to shut up and listen.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

13:02 / 11.06.07

I am not a "trixxor". I find it interesting the connotations that are made to this feminine suffix. Of course, though.

Interesting- it had never occurred to me that it could be seen as being the feminine "-or", and I'd always taken it as a deliberate netspeak spelling error- "haxx0r", "r0xxor", "I upgraded mah Lazor"... hmm. Shall have to think more about this.

13:07 / 11.06.07

Thanks everyone for not using the feminine suffix in relation to the pseudo-trickster phenomenon. I apologize if I came off a bit nutty and reactive yesterday, as well.

I am also quite fed-up to here with this "trickster" stuff myself, and one of the reasons I prefer not to use the "tricks" in my ficsuit name. My experiences with "trickster" types usually has involved said trickster-type lying to me and then telling me they are smashing my reality tunnel - because, nothing is true and everything is permitted. GAH! So, it rather does get on my nerves when people claim to be "avatars" of these types of deities. There are people who see their (so-called) "devotion" to these figures as a license to hurt people, or mess around with their lives, without any apparent accountability for it. To summerize: LYING DOES NOT A TRICKSTER MAKE!

Question: Could Lucifer be considered a trickster type?

Second question: Couldn't this be in the Temple if we are going to have a proper discussion on tricksters? I rather like the informative discussion parts of this thread - big tenQ's to Zippy.

13:09 / 11.06.07

Stoats: "trix" is the feminine suffix I meant, not "or".

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

13:14 / 11.06.07

Ah, good point. Sorry, brain not working. It's clearly been hAxx0rd.

*

13:44 / 11.06.07

Thanks for this thread as well... I had been mulling over an article for the compilation titled something like "How Not to Be a Trickster Avatar on the Internet", and now I can rest easy with the submission I settled on.

16:19 / 11.06.07

Uncomfortable truths which nonetheless need to be aired.

The court jester was employed specifically for that purpose, allowed to say things courtiers were too scared to say (also the juggling and funny hat etc.) because it is such an important role, think of King Lear's fool, for example.
"The jester was symbolic twin of the king. All jesters and fools in those days were thought of as special cases whom God had touched with a childlike madness—a gift, or perhaps a curse."

I'm thinking also of native american shamans who cross-dressed and were vocationally contrary, as a part of the deal with the spirits, but I can't recall which tribe or when.

When the internet tricksters come around though, what I'm usually reminded of is a crap Ragabash character.

*

17:32 / 11.06.07

Heyoka?

From Encyclopedia Mythica:

A Lakota way of being, a medicine way. A Heyoka is one who does things backwards or opposite. The idea that Heyoka is a clown comes from the opposite behavior; it is part of the medicine of Heyoka, to remind us we are merely human beings and not to become too serious about ourselves, not to imagine we are more powerful than we really are, reminding us that Spirit holds all the power. In this day there are those among the Lakota who pour Heyoka lodges, which are directed towards the West and full of laughter. If a Heyoka man messes up he has the Thunder Nation to deal with. Spirit chooses who is Heyoka; it is a very difficult path to follow.

From Black Elk Speaks:

Only those who have had visions of the thunder beings of the west can act as heyokas. They have sacred power and they share some of this with all the people, but they do it through funny actions. When a vision comes from the thunder beings of the west, it comes with terror like a thunder storm; but when the storm of vision has passed, the world is greener and happier; for wherever the truth of vision comes upon the world, it is like a rain. The world, you see, is happier after the terror of the storm.
But in the heyoka ceremony, everything is backwards, and it is planned that the people shall be made to feel jolly and happy first, so that it may be easier for the power to come to them. You have noticed that the truth comes into this world with two faces. One is sad with suffering, and the other laughs; but it is the same face, laughing or weeping. When people are already in despair, maybe the laughing face is better for them; and when they feel too good and are too sure of being safe, maybe the weeping face is better for them to see. And so I think that is what the heyoka ceremony is for.

There's also a full account there of a particular heyoka ceremony.

See also Lame Deer: Seeker of Visions, from where I first heard of the heyoka.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

17:45 / 11.06.07

I was just going to say Heyoka. One thing I note about the Heyoka is that they must truly suffer. They have to be freezing cold or insanely hot just to give everyone else a laugh. They have to be acting like clowns when the heart of the whole tribe is breaking. They have to deprive themselves of comfort and security in order to perform a valuable service for the tribe. Fancy that? Coz I bloody don't. Contrast the Heyoka throwing off clothes in the middle of Winter with the spoilt bastard sitting safely behind hir computer terminal. Not very impressive.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

17:51 / 11.06.07

A Heyoka is one who does things backwards or opposite.

Bizarro am no trickster?

18:40 / 11.06.07

I've only known one person who qualified as a genuine, real-life trickster: Abbie Hoffman.

Studied with Marcuse at Brandeis, then went south to protect the voting rights of African-Americans. Got his head busted on more than one occasion. Opened a free store in New York. Smoked pot. Dropped acid. And got weird.

Went to the NY Stock Exchange and dropped thousands of dollars in small bills on the trading floor. Business came to a screeching halt as the traders scrambled for the money. Went to the March on Washington to levitate the Pentagon and exorcise its evil spirits. Got tried for conspiracy and gave some of the most brilliant testimony I've ever seen. Wrote Steal This Book, and wouldn't change the title for double the money.

I once spoke to him about a political event I was organizing. He said we should claim Bruce Springsteen and a bunch of other famous people would show up. I said that wasn't true. He responded "Don't be so sure -- they might!" (Many of them did.)

Could have made a fortune as a businessman, politician, or con-man. Instead spent almost a decade underground, hiding from a drug bust he claimed was entrapment. Still did environmental organizing while living under an assumed name.

Went to jail, came back out, and kept organizing with President Carter's daughter Amy against CIA recruitment and U.S. involvement in covert wars.

Had bipolar disorder. And eventually killed himself. (Or did he?)

The best magician I've ever known, and he didn't even realize it.

Now that's a goddamned trickster.

18:45 / 11.06.07

Ah, that's them. 'Tis indeed a difficult path to follow.
Their satire presents important questions by fooling around. They ask difficult questions, and say things others are too afraid to say. By reading between the lines, the audience is able to think about things not usually thought about, or to look at things in a different way.

Now, don't anyone take this the wrong way, but South Park seems to me to be an example of satire like that. Trolls acting like Cartman, not so much, because they're not highlighting bigotry by presenting an obnoxious fictional character, they're just enjoying being wankers.

Regrettable Juvenilia

18:56 / 11.06.07

No, South Park's creators are on record as being depoliticised and wanting to mock all things equally - which doesn't necessarily make them less funny, but does mean their work doesn't really ask any difficult or important questions.

*

18:57 / 11.06.07

Do you know many people made to think about things not usually thought about or look at things in a different way from watching SouthPark?

21:24 / 11.06.07

Well, I was watching the 'Apologies to Jesse Jackson' episode and it seemed pretty good satire of racist hypocrisy in the states, like Team America was good satire on US attitudes to the world. They certainly did change my opinion of crab people and sea otters. Just a thought.

Dammit, I should have said I was only joking, trying to fuck with your reality tunnels and force you to think outside your narrow minded box because I'm an irreverent trickster figure, what a wasted opportunity.

21:34 / 11.06.07

No, South Park's creators are on record as being depoliticised and wanting to mock all things equally - which doesn't necessarily make them less funny, but does mean their work doesn't really ask any difficult or important questions.

Or.... it means they ask ALL difficult or important questions at once!!!

Less searchable M0rd4nt

21:38 / 11.06.07

Well, no. If you mock all things equally it means you mock things that are already under fire in our culture as well as mocking the institutions that enjoy protection. You're hitting the easy targets at least as much as you're hitting the hard ones. Probably more.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

21:39 / 11.06.07

And also: what Zippy said.

21:42 / 11.06.07

More like carpet-bombing, so not so useful.

22:20 / 11.06.07

4) Trickster defies and mediates binary oppositions, rather than creating, upholding, and relying on them. (Compare Hermes, messenger between Gods and mortals, with "You hate me it's all a conspiracy you are just all against me you are greyfaces and I am TRICKSTER!")

I'm also coming from a stance that some Trickster forms exist to break structures down. When the structures are too rigid and restrictive this can be viewed as a positiveforce however sometimes what's being torn down are the straw bales of your wee shack or hut.

The Trickster and the Paranormal is an excellent book if gigantic.

This isn't to say Tricksters are bad negative things but rather powerful forces with t/Their own agendas.

Smashing reality tunnels is far less work then supporting the person who is struggling to rebuild themselves. Sometimes the smashing was needed but sometimes there are those of us who have to pick up the pieces and we fucking wish for one fucking minute some compassion was used instead. Because the person who really really didn't need to get LSD dropped into their drink just had a psychotic break as a result. Are you grounded in kindness or ego when you decide how to act?

I know a few people who act as Tricksters on low trouble making level and I have to say they don't fucking think beyond their own cause and effect agendas. You slash an asshat's tires without thinking he might get a call from his elderly mom to help her in the middle of the night, or what if you get the wrong car and the dancer has to wait alone in the parking lot for the tow truck. Maybe she has to pay for new tires with the money she was saving to get out of the shit job. You steal a platter of food from an open basement of a restaurant and are you thinking of the poor person who is going to get fired or have their pay docked? No of course you're not.

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