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Student Confidence and the Class System

 
 
All Acting Regiment
17:26 / 06.06.07
On Infinite Thought:

Student Confidence

Jodi's post regarding 'student spin' led me to reflect on how differently students 'market' themselves in the UK. Perhaps not at every university, but at least in my experience, students, even the very brightest, tend to massively downplay their work: 'It's rubbish', 'I don't like it', 'I'm not happy with it'. Perhaps this is some sort of clever self-denigration technique in order to render the marker pleasantly surprised upon receipt of their work, but I don't think so.

In fact, large quantities of my time seem to be spent in trying to boost the academic confidence of my overwhelmingly state-school educated students, to reassure them that they have in fact understood the question, that they do have the ability to write about Hegel/Heidegger/etc. And, of course, they do - if you can't explain these things to an 18-year-old then you can't explain them to anyone.

The educational class difference in the UK between those who went to schools that told them every day that they were 'the cream of the cream' and those that didn't strikes me as one of the most significant culturally subjective divides we have. In fact, what public schools 'sell' above all is confidence. It's all they need to sell - critical thinking just gets in the way when you're trying to be a future leader of industry/arms dealer/politico. If state schools had more time and resources to spend trying to convince working class and lower middle class kids that they were as smart as their private/independent school counterparts, there'd be a quiet revolution in the offing. It's not enough that some state school kids 'get elected' to go to Oxbridge so that they can play rapid catch-up with their cultural 'superiors' - this changes precisely nothing, and worse, fosters resentment among those who were 'smart enough' to break away from their 'lesser' peers.

The alternative is not simply a question of convincing people that 'they're worth it' in some shiny, superficial way - but it is about encouraging the capacities and talents that are there already but get pwned by anxiety and insecurity.

What do you think of this?
 
 
nighthawk
18:26 / 06.06.07
I followed that cross-blog debate as it was posted, and I think most of what was said was spot on. Drawing on my own experience, I'd say the difference in confidence between state educated pupils and those from private schools is enormous (I went from a comprehensive in Liverpool to a college at Oxford). What follows is all anecdotal...

- Within the University system, people from private schools seemed to take the formalities and general atmosphere of traditional academic institutions in their stride, whereas it took me a long time to adjust.

- There's also a difference in intellectual confidence: faith that what you have to say is relevant and worth articulating, wilingness to actively defend your points when challenged and, frankly, to bullshit convincingly regardless of ignorance.

- Also a major difference in expectation. One girl I know told me that she'd always planned to come to Oxford and get a First - it was what she had been encouraged to expect by her school. Sitting her degree was a big shock to her, because it turned out that this expectation wasn't particularly well founded, and she had to completely reassess her own ability as a result. People from state schools (particularly comps, not so much grammars) tended to be more bemused about the fact that they were studying at Oxford at all, and expected a lot less from their degree (although often worked a lot harder). Both groups had difficulties as a result of these expectations.

- Me and at least one of my friends were convinced throughout our first year that we'd only been let in because we were from comprehensives and this looked good in the college admissions statistics. I suppose it was more of a nagging and persistent doubt than a rational belief, compounded by the fact that I did a subject that is hardly ever taught in comprehensives, making applicants like me something of a rareity. People from public schools didn't seem to doubt that they 'ought' to be in Oxford, or (and perhaps this is key) never let on if they did.

- Somewhat speculative and possibly ill-founded, but watching Big Brother this year made me think about how a lot of public school students see themselves as 'intelligent' because of the breadth of 'culture' their upbringing has brought them into contact with. Whereas in my school we'd get through one or two texts per term - strictly those on the national curriculum, read painfully slowly - my friends from public schools had to read much more widely, well outside the set texts for the exams. This provided an impressive range of knowledge which can seem very daunting when you first encounter it, even if a little probing reveals that there's not always much intelligence or insight behind the familiarity.

I'll probably come back to this later with some more general points, as the above is fairly specific to my university experience. I think IT is absolutely correct when she says that this isn't about fostering superficial confidence in Brand Me (TM), but rather about encouraging and recognising intellectual curiousity and ability in students, something that National Curriculum teaching completely fails to do (or at least failed to do when I was at school).
 
 
nighthawk
18:32 / 06.06.07
There was also an Arts vs. Sciences divide (possibly well documented elsewhere, I think I remember reading about this), with many more state school students doing science subjects than humanities.
 
 
nighthawk
07:30 / 07.06.07
A bit more on this:

With public school pupils, there is a 'confidence' that arises from being constantly assured that you will succeed; this is easy to do when you have the time and space to coach people through exams, and when most of your students are from privileged backgrounds which leave them with little chance of really failing in the wider world. In my school making sure we all passed with reasonable grades was a much bigger issue, and that was where most of our teachers energy was directed.

Again, thinking about the constraints of the National Curriculum, people I know from public schools were encouraged to think and write more freely about the texts they studied, and this was recognised and rewarded. Our teachers were trying to get us to just pass, we weren't always encouraged to think about, articulate and defend our own insights into the texts. Or rather, this was o.k., but only if we were obviously thinking about the examination criteria (only making points about 'audience reaction' and 'technique', etc.). I think brighter pupils are very well served by good public schools, whereas their equivalents in state education have to rely on their own resourcefulness.

There's also a 'confidence' that arises from having a much broader education, and I think this is affects students who are perhaps less bright. In my experience (and again, this is all anecodtal), public school students feel more secure in their intelligence because they have a general familiarity with 'culture' and what not, and this sort of knowledge can seem pretty intimidating to those of us who spent an entire term reading nothing but Emma. I suppose I'm trying to say two things: that its easier to believe that you're intelligent when you are well-spoken and even vaguely well-read; that this can also makes you seem more intelligent to your state school peers, particularly when they are all of a sudden conscious of the fact that they lack your broader cultural knowledge.

So, as I said before, I think IT is right when she says this is about more than fostering a superficial brashness and arrogance. But even if the divide between state and public school pupils does arise in part because the latter are simply told they are going to succeed, and because once they get out into the wider world they probably will, I think its also rooted in different methods of education and the constraints placed upon teachers and pupils. It would be nice to think that every confident and articulate public school kid was all brashness and bluster with no substance, but that's not really true - the brightest people I know were very well served by the top-flight schools they went. However the differences do become apparent when the public school students turn out to be less intelligent, because the combination of unshakeable confidence, articulateness and broad cultural familiarity make them stand out when compared to state school students who are probably equally bright.

There are problems with both systems, and after sixteen plus years of education I don't think any modern institution really focuses on developing critical intelligence. This is important because it means that neither system is primarily oriented towards developing and supporting the sort of thinking I think IT wants to see, and from what I know of her politics she's looking for something a bit more substantial than more state educated students in positions of power. Which is to say, even if all of the above does mean that public schools do foster confidence better than their state equivalents, and even if this confidence is at least partially well-founded - a result of a more rounded education rather than sheer force of will and constant repetition on the part of teachers - it doesn't necessarily follow that this is the kind of confidence we want to see in state educated pupils.

Yet again, I'll try to come back later, as I'm late for work.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:45 / 07.06.07
All that you're saying seems to ring true. In my experience, there was also a divide, at state schools, between the lower class students and the middle/upper-middle-class students - this latter tended to end up in the Top Set and be essentially a world of their own, where they were treated like adults, whereas the rest of the five Sets weren't expected to acheive anything, really.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
19:35 / 10.06.07
I should say that I suspect I've been out of the education system for longer than either of the above posters, so I dare say things might have have changed, but I do still wonder if this is valid as a headshop thread.

Precisely what's being addressed here beyond some fairly annecdotal material to do with the posh kids (this being the people who went to boarding or private day schools) being arrogant so-and-so's with everything going for them, while the not-posh kids (the others, it seems) routinely struggle with a system that's in some sense loaded against them.

If true it's a grim picture, but it doesn't seem to be one that's being backed up by anything concrete so far, in terms of facts, critical theory, figures, and that sort of thing.

It's an interesting subject, for sure, but one that might be better pursued in Conversation, perhaps?
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
20:40 / 10.06.07
While it's been anecdotal so far, it would seem to be backed up by research.

In fact according to a report by the UCL and KCL, reported on here, social class seems to be the dominant factor in educational attainment.

An extract:

This unprecedented project has revealed that a child's social background is the crucial factor in academic performance, and that a school's success is based not on its teachers, the way it is run, or what type of school it is, but, overwhelmingly, on the class background of its pupils.

(Possibly it's more of a Switchboard thread? It certainly has political ramifications, but it doesn't seem to be heading in a theoretical direction so far).
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:44 / 10.06.07
Well yes, but seeing as the schools in question seem to be the universities at Manchester and Oxford, neither of which are a breeze to get into, whoever you are, I'm not sure if their overall success is really in doubt.

If this thread is going to stay in the Head Shop, or even if it isn't, perhaps assumptions like, say;

In fact, what public schools 'sell' above all is confidence. It's all they need to sell - critical thinking just gets in the way when you're trying to be a future leader of industry/arms dealer/politico

could do with a look.
 
 
Joy Division Oven Gloves
03:39 / 11.06.07
There's more stuff on class and education here. Summary of a Joseph Rowntree study on Socio-economic disadvantage and access to higher education among Scottish school leavers

During the past two decades, the provision of higher education within the UK has been greatly enlarged. Despite an overall increase in representation across all social groups, the gap between the levels of participation of affluent and disadvantaged young people has remained. The researchers found that:

# Under-representation in higher education was primarily due to poorer school performance by disadvantaged young people, rather than to any systematic bias in university admissions policy.
# Even within schools near the bottom of the government 'league tables', those young people who attained sufficient qualifications for university entry were relatively advantaged in comparison with the majority of the school intake.
# Few qualified but disadvantaged young people forewent the opportunity to progress to higher education. However, as a result of the extra financial, geographical and social barriers they face, such students were more likely to enrol in less advanced or prestigious courses than their more advantaged peers.



The report relates to access to rather than acheivement during Higher Education but it echos the experience of feeling out of place because of your social background that Nighthawk was describing earlier.

Few of these young people applied for the most prestigious institutions. Only three individuals applied for 'Oxbridge'; none were successful, including a 'straight A' student who received an outright rejection by interview. Some high-achieving respondents felt that there was an element of favouritism towards independent school entrants within the most prestigious institutions and subjects (e.g. medicine). During face-to-face interviews, many students - particularly those enrolled in advanced courses - said they felt they were atypical of higher education students. Some felt that their social background was a barrier to their future progress both within and beyond higher education.

This was particularly the case with students enrolled in more prestigious courses, some of whom were finding it difficult to 'fit in' with students from more advantaged backgrounds. On the whole, however, most disadvantaged students were more concerned with securing a job, rather than aspiring to academic excellence by way of prestigious studentships.



I think the report's highlighting of aspiration and expectation are quite pertinent to the thread. I also think it's 5.30am and I should try to come back to this later.

I think there's mileage in the thread. I guess maybe confidence is trickier to pin down than say GCSE results or drop-out rates and lends itself to annecdotal accounts.
 
 
shockoftheother
16:03 / 14.06.07
I was educated at one of the big two, and research and teach at one of the Russell Group universities at the moment, so a lot of what's said here makes interesting reading.

Personally, I find there's a huge divide in the approach to education at the highest levels. It's a truism that a degree has become simply a rite of passage to ensure reasonable financial security, but I find the number of students approaching education as an elaborate performance to ensure a particular financial result to have increased since my undergrad days (which weren't all that long ago). Perhaps such economic awareness the inevitable consequence of living in a capitalist structure, or a consequence of an education system built around the idea that the purpose of education is to succeed in tests ('will I need to know this for finals?'), or perhaps I'm just increasingly in a position to notice these things.

Anyway, the 'spin' that IT refers to in her original blog post should really be seen as part of such a performance, in that students who deliberately attempt to engage in understanding Benjamin or Heidegger in the space of a week and translating that work to paper will frequently be dissatisfied with the end result. In mimicking those performances, a student can set up an implied narrative of engagement with the subject matter. I've certainly seen it in action.

IT is bang-on when she points out the disadvantages that state school students face at institutions that place great value on the ability to speak clearly and confidently about their subjects, even to the extent of being able to conceal ignorance by feigning knowledge. One thing private schools do very well is teach the interdisciplinary links that make up the web of culture so important to university arts education, and an awareness of those links and one's own right to participate in such a network is the basis of intellectual confidence. The aim of first year introductory courses, at least in the humanities, should be to make that network immediate and accessible and enable informed participation in it. Unfortunately for those of us with a social conscience this brings up the problem of acculturation, and how far such an education necessarily makes its subjects complicit with established social and cultural order and privileges a particular form of culture over others. There are strategies that help avoid this, but the culture of 'the letter as the visible sign of reason' is inextricably embedded in a university education - not that I consider this to be absolutely problematic, of course.

I often tend to think that students sit on a spectrum between a desire to engage intellectually with their subject and a desire to fulfill the criteria allowing them to leave with a decent degree. It's rare to meet anyone purely at one end of the spectrum with absolute disregard for the other end. I tend to view a tutorial role as trying to open up the possibilities of engagement rather than teaching how to pass finals, though I occasionally fail to live up to that ideal. I'm fortunate in that the sort of thing I teach has very little attraction to the more avaricious and cynical students, though.

In a sense, universities teach two things side-by-side. One is how to get a solid 2.1 or perhaps just push into first territory, through application of various study techniques, learning the material and being able to relate it all together in a critical framework (hopefully one aware of its own weaknesses and failure to totalise a subject). Such skills are certainly invaluable to the world of work. The other is how to make those concepts your own, think about them and respond to them and contribute to them in a way that's innovative and authentic, which is the primary criterion of first-class work for me. To a certain extent these two can even be antagonistic to each other and cause all sorts of interesting ruptures. The sort of confidence acquired at public school can get you the former, but on its own won't propel you towards the latter, though the confidence in yourself to think about these things is perhaps a prerequisite.

I find myself in a sort of Marxian guiltfest about perpetuating class structure through education this evening so I'll leave this here for the time being, but will note that universities can't always serve as a corrective to 12 years of an education system disenfranchising bright working class people, and that the culture of testing and micromanagement in the UK is doing irreparable damage to teachers' ability to communicate properly with their classes. Oh, that makes me sound like a bit of a hippy. Hm.
 
 
Crestmere
06:42 / 02.07.07
Is this thread only regarding the issues in the UK or could I chime in with my thoughts relating it to issues within the US educational system?

Because I see a lot of crossover from my experiences in that educational system.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
10:12 / 02.07.07
By all means chip in.
 
 
ginger
02:46 / 14.07.07
i have a fair amount of contact with oxbridge admissions myself, and have suffered interviews and tutorials from both sides; whilst i think the basic sentiment of IT’s blog and nighthawk’s initial posts is fair enough, i’m not sure about public school confidence resulting from pupils simply being told that they’re going to succeed. as allecto regina notes, there’s a smaller but similar gap between higher- and lower-set state pupils; i’d put this less down to the ‘Brand Me-building’, and more to rather cooler, more considered and deliberate academic coaching.

i’ve only run admissions at oxbridge, though i’ve taught elsewhere; when pupils come up to interview, some schools’ve clearly prepared their kids for the process, and done so to a formula; you can tell a st. custard’s boy the minute he walks in the door. you get this from some state schools; you also get it from state school kids who’ve been put through private grooming programs by their parents. schools run mock interviews and so on in the run up to the real thing.

the preprepared kids do tend to attempt to bullshit us more often, but your average 18-year-old’s bullshitting isn’t hugely durable in the face of two seasoned professionals. perhaps surprisingly, state school kids often interview better than public school candidates, because they’re more ‘honest’; they don’t go into stand-offish bullshit hyperspace as soon as the door opens, and are prepared to enter into a bit of give-and-take. the interviews’re intended as a trial-run tutorial, to see if the kid’d get anything out of the tutorial system; arrogant little shites tend to forget this, view it as a duel and attempt to show off, while the more nervous, less preprepared state-schoolers just talk to you. my 4:30 AM brain can’t form the sentence, but the admissions figures are proportionate: about as many state schoolers per place get in as apply. the ‘high-achieving respondents [who] felt that there was an element of favouritism towards independent school entrants within the most prestigious institutions’ are suffering from an increasingly outmoded misconception; if more’d apply, more’d get in.

this is just in my little corner of the world, of course. some colleges’re still full of people who eat nothing but swan and wear monocles in bed. most of my teaching comes from them, which is odd, since i teach critical theory, and have almost cornered the marxket in the leftist and deconstructionist end of things; the state school students tend to be rampant historicists who puke if you mention such things. the situation was much the same when i taught elsewhere. they bullshit me for the first week, then realise that if you don’t read the books, people eat your spleen, and it stops you getting a nice job in the city.

apologies, posting whilst asleep never pays off.
 
 
shockoftheother
08:53 / 14.07.07
this is just in my little corner of the world, of course. some colleges’re still full of people who eat nothing but swan and wear monocles in bed. most of my teaching comes from them, which is odd, since i teach critical theory, and have almost cornered the marxket in the leftist and deconstructionist end of things; the state school students tend to be rampant historicists who puke if you mention such things.

Really? Wow, that's the opposite of my experience, and my college was pretty much the spiritual home of crass monocle-wearing, Bullingdon-clubbing chinless wonders - I was the only state schooler in my course group. I found an immediate attraction for critical theory in that it allowed trenchant and incisive critiques of the frameworks in which most of my coursemates were working at the time. I found myself much more interested in absence, diffusion, epistemic violence etc than they were, and greeted with "come on, that's not in the text!" far more frequently than I expected. I'd speculate that their educational background invested much more faith in the metaphysics of presence & tradition of syllogistic reasoning than mine did, but these were people who were always more excited by Arnold than Derrida anyway.

(But then, my wider experience outside of the Oxbridge system agrees with yours, in that there's an ingrained cynicism about 'arty-farty theory that doesn't apply to real life', and it's interesting to see where those boundaries might lie: feeling OK with de Man/Culler/Hillis Miller but not Derrida himself, happy enough with Zizek, French feminism is scary but American feminism is generally alright, and the only people who like Deleuze are the goths.)

A reasonable account of the currency of confidence in the university, the factors that go in to creating that confidence and the way that confidence operates in the cultural world outside of the university can probably be found in Bourdieu, but I'm pre-caffeinated and haven't read Distinction in the longest time.
 
 
ginger
19:52 / 14.07.07
i know, came as a surprise to me, too. i’m (minor) public school scum, and served my undergrad time at one of the posher oxford colleges; that said, my subject year was quite evenly split, and all but one of us took the theory option. i was the only one who kept it up in any way after that year. my current employer uses a singularly weird structure for theory papers, which means that while the entire first year take a seriously watered-down paper with a theoretical element, very few actually do an entire term-long pure theory course, and even fewer take it for finals, so we’re all teaching beckett and eliot to make ends meet.

it’s worth noting that the public school theory kids don’t tend to be hugely posh; they’re upper-middle, rather than upper class, if that’s a fair judgement to make, and whilst i think it’s fair to say they’re more likely to attempt adventurous arguments, they tend to be the more nerdy-but-cool types; none’re what i’d class as arrogant.

it’s perhaps worth noting what happens with modern drama, since i think the situation’s analogous. i was sent three extremely good student by a college, including an old etonian, a man one from one of the london independents, and a woman one from a northern comprehensive. for the tutorial, both men wrote extensively on beckett, pinter and sarah kane, taking very abstract, violence-and-presence routes, with a little hint of politics, while the woman went down a feminist-marxist route, writing on pinter and osbourne, with a fair bit of historical background thrown in; in the class at the beginning of the week, dealing with brecht, the men’d gone in for alienation on an abstract, formal level, while the woman’d been interested in the historical circumstances surrounding the composition of the plays. even removing gender influence from the mix, and the slight possibility that they knew what i’d like from previous contact and the preparatory reading and would’ve written differently for someone else, this is pretty typical of the way schooling seems to influence approach: independent schools encourage more abstract thought, while the state institutions emphasise the importance of historical context.

this seems to mean that the few pure theory kids we get tend to line up on private/state lines with depressing regularity, with the public schoolers going for deconstruction, and the state school pupils heading straight from classical marxism and feminism. the only real exception seems to be the post-colonial stuff, and i’d put this down to the multicultural stream in GCSE, AS- and A-levels. bit of a bastard, that, since PoCo’s the one thing i’ve never really got up to teaching standard...
 
 
Disco is My Class War
15:01 / 17.07.07
Just a quick aside, but it seems rather bizarre for Mark E Smith to be asking for this to put in the Conversation when class and education was the subject of a pretty canonical theoretical text, Bourdieu's Distinction. Not to mention Richard Hoggart. It seems bizarre, anyhow, to want this to go in the Convo, considering how IT, Codepoetix and kpunk are far more theoretical than the Head Shop gets on its good days. But whatever.

Australia's class system is reputedly far less hierarchised than the British system, but the education system is becoming increasingly hierarchised, split between what we call 'public schools' (comprehensives) and 'private schools' (independent, fee-paying). I went to school in a rural public secondary college, at which I was extremely bored, and got into a sandstone university -- not quite the equivalent of Oxford, but certainly the most prestigious university available. And yeah, I felt totally abject. I still have moments of feeling abject attending the same institution as a postgraduate student at the age of 31. The private school kids I had classes with clearly had more confidence. They had middle-class accents. They had more expensive clothes, and they were evidently not worried about where the next meal would come from or if they could pay their rent on time. They didn't have to work part-time jobs to live, so they tended to have more time to study. In this sense there are some pretty huge material factors that differentiate middle-class from lower-middle and working-class university students.

But, returning to Bourdieu, it's not just confidence that private schools teach one, but the skills to be socially adept at relating to one's peers: conversing, debating breezily, not getting too 'intense'. I found it difficult to speak up in classes for the first couple of years of uni not only because I felt like an awkward, badly-dressed social reject, but also because if I was engaged with theory (and it was mostly Foucault, Butler, Deleuze, Derrida) I felt so intensely about it that I couldn't remove my own affect from the discussion. Alienating oneself from a particular issue and treating it as if one is 'above it all' is a skill that upper middle-class people learn.
 
  
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