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Magick in Context and Praxis

 
  

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illmatic
21:43 / 05.06.07
So, Talking to Strangers said this re. Liber Resh, done in the EvilCorp office bogs:

I think the sneak-into-the-corporate-toilet model is sort of what was inevitably going to happen when people try and take Unkle Al's gear out of its social and historical context (maids, cooks and nannies, time and space to dress up in weird clothes and wave your arms around) and translate it into ours.

An excellent point, and I think a great starting place for understanding any magical or spiritual practice or tradition. Magic/religion/spirituality is one of those peculiar categories which is often seen as the repository of "eternal truths" and so forth and is often treated in an utterly ahistoical way with no situational context - no place, no culture, no personalities (and their neurosis), feeding into it. Outside the Circles of Time, indeed. I think this is why my tastes in esoteric reading tend towards the anthropological/philological these days.

Now, in a sense, this post is merely a pretext to say how excited I am about this book which looks like the first new occult book I've seen that I actually want to read for a long time.

It's interesting to see a scene which was an influence of me "when I were a mere neophyte" succumb to the process of historification. In a sense, a bit of my "past" (scare quotes 'cos I wasn't really there for most of the stuff he writes of, I'm sure) is being put into a wider history, and I'm sure that reading this will birth all kinds of interesting snippets and anecdotes, and perhaps tug the threads of memory and nostalgia (lying bastards that they are).

I thought this might birth an interesting discussion - both about the book as and when people read it, and the history of the UK occult scene, and how context affects our understanding of spiritual and magical practices. Two thread for the prices of one perhaps, but these are often the most interesting discussions.

Thoughts?
 
 
Ticker
22:47 / 05.06.07
OOoh! Yay for a smart sexy new book! Thanks for the link.

As part of my internal metaphor for the role of magician I figure in the requirement of challenging perceptions. Not specifically a rock star power chord center stage sort of way but more along the lines of the person who takes the time to see if water is in fact made of hydrogen and oxygen and if cats are correct that we're very silly in thinking there is a difference between inside and outside just because we've stuck a wall in between. So for me context helps illustrate where the wall/assumption happens to be and why it needs review and should it in fact be transmogrified.

Context around societal sexual baggage explains why certain forms of sex magic was/is useful in certain cases and why it may not be in others.
 
 
grant
01:41 / 06.06.07
the first new occult book I've seen that I actually want to read for a long time

Oh, no, did you just admit to being an "aging punk rocker"??

I'm wondering now how much practice (or, um, the idea of a practice) is linked to youth culture. Those energetic young people, looking for something to do.
 
 
illmatic
04:00 / 06.06.07
Oh, no, did you just admit to being an "aging punk rocker"??

Ccchrist, I'm not that old.... aging B Boy and raver actually. Far too little chaos magic and Hip Hop crossover. Cultural insularity was actually one of the things I complained about, in the first group I was in.

I'm wondering now how much practice (or, um, the idea of a practice) is linked to youth culture. Those energetic young people, looking for something to do.

For me, my early twenties was definitely a time when I could do loads of stuff. Laid foundations, as it were. However, less sure about the youth culture crossover. I think youth cultures, when you're in the thick of it, are much more exciting than the boring old occult scene - 8,000 people dancing to Bizarre Inc. vs. a couple of socially maladjusted blokes and a goth bird in a pub. No contest.

That's a bit unfair. Maybe.
 
 
illmatic
04:07 / 06.06.07
So, while it seems to have been there for punk, I'm not aware of much in the way of magick/occulture crossover with 90s youth culture, the stuff I experienced growing up

Having said that - Genesis P Orridge did tie his wagon to the acid house thing, he was always pretty peripheral IMO, but that certainly was something injected into PTV. There were also other rave/psychedelia crossovers like Megatripopolis - which ran a series of talks alongside it's club night sometimes featuring magical speakers - I think this may have been put together by Fraser Clark, the guy behind old fanzine Encyclopedia Psychedelia.
 
 
Katherine
07:17 / 06.06.07
It looks like a very interesting book indeed, certainly would like to read it.

I would say that the points raised on context for magical practices in the other thread are very valid, also the point that Imaginary said on looking at the rituals and seeing what could be brought into everyday life;

This was one of the things that Chaos Magick was supposed to encourage, yes?

TTS reply:

It was supposed to, yeah, but what tends to happen instead is this JSA-budget version of the aristo poncemage outlined above, practicing basically the same rituals but with Buffy characters instead of angels.

So many books do exactly what TTS has said and it's really frustating, there is a scope and chance to show people how to adapt rituals from older eras to today yet it doesn't happen. I read a fair bit about changing the arch-angels to teletubbies (although that is out of date now) and the like but not much else apart from re-hashes of other texts with the pre-fix of being different.

I have found that percentage-wise personally the most original texts are from small publications which can get hard to find or buy. Is this anyone else's experience as well?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:24 / 06.06.07
Ohyeah.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
08:18 / 06.06.07
I have found that percentage-wise personally the most original texts are from small publications which can get hard to find or buy. Is this anyone else's experience as well?

Well I think it's worth bearing in mind that much of what's now considered by some to be 'foundational' in the chaos genre started out as small publications "hard to find or buy" - Pete Carroll's Liber Null for example went through several small press editions between it's first publication in (I think) 1981 and Samuel Weiser publishing it in 1987.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:42 / 06.06.07
a couple of socially maladjusted blokes and a goth bird in a pub.

No, that's fair. I was usually that Goth bird. You were better off with Bizzare Inc., trust me.
 
 
Quantum
09:24 / 06.06.07
Far too little chaos magic and Hip Hop crossover.

Helluva yeah. I've noticed plenty of dance and trance crossover with various magic/occult/new age cultures though. Not always in a good way.
 
 
Katherine
11:24 / 07.06.07
Well I think it's worth bearing in mind that much of what's now considered by some to be 'foundational' in the chaos genre started out as small publications "hard to find or buy" - Pete Carroll's Liber Null for example went through several small press editions between it's first publication in (I think) 1981 and Samuel Weiser publishing it in 1987.

Very true TtT, I hope very much that other smaller publications get a chance at being more widely available. In part, the problem I have found with them is finding out about them in the first place.
 
 
illmatic
08:59 / 11.07.07
Okay so another attempt to get this thread started. A question – how important is to you to know about the context(s) in which your personal practiced originated and those they’ve moved through? I’ll pick on the much maligned sigil for my example. My understanding of this has greatly been enhanced by seeing it as:

a) A small part of the creative outpouring of a fantastic early 20th Century artist/hermit, tied in with eerie, intriguing concepts like automatic drawing, intrusive familiars and atavistic resurgence
b) A concept picked up and reversioned by the most creative of Crowley’s heirs, as he spun the biography of this artist in a way that would make Alaister Campbell proud. Making it even weirder if possible. but pumping it into a series of seminal occult works.
c) Eventually leading to various occultists, Goths and weirdos running with the concept in the late 80s, making it part of their own creative innovations, for a stripped down, 3 bass chords and a drumbeat approach to magic.

Having a sense of this history that accretes around a concept is really interesting for me. In my own personal practice, I try and be aware of where and how elements are taken from, why they’ve been picked up, and study the cultural contexts which they’re taken from. All these feeds into my practice making it a much richer and more interesting process. This is why I dislike the idea of “magic as engineering problem” – or worse “cheat codes to the universe” - a stripped down, contextless, universal process.

Thoughts?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:31 / 11.07.07
Yeah, I agree with this. I think when applied to non-western occultism it dovetails into the whole cultural appropriation thing in some sense. I came across someone on another website espousing that concerns over cultural appropriation were simply "white guilt", which struck me as an argument equivalent to equating concerns over misogynist language to "political correctness gone mad".

I don't have any problem whatsoever with magical practitioners experimenting with magical traditions from cultures other than their country of birth. I would be rather hypocritical if I held this position, as a white Englishman interested in Voodoo and Tantra. Indeed, if that was genuinely the main drive behind the cultural appropriation debate, it would be indistinguishable from Volkism!

What I think is important, however, for any magician approaching the magic of a culture other than their own, is an understanding of the context in which the ideas you are encountering came to be. You have to situate what you are looking at within its own culture and context to be able to understand it. Without that willingness to step into another culture and experience its magic from that culture's perspective, rather than the perspective of a detached western observer, then you are never really going to get to grips with what it actually is - and that's when it becomes a shallow one-sided cultural appropriation, rather than a vibrant cultural cross-fertilisation.

I think this is a problem that emerges primarily from the mechanistic "cheat codes to the universe" approach to magic that you mention. The idea that all of magic is reduceable to a universal series of formulae that hold true regardless of culture and context. It's a position that sidelines culture and context as unimportant baggage attached to a formula, which I think is a really problematic way of looking at anything. I just don't think you can understand anything without looking at its roots, growth and development and the factors surrounding how it came to be. This goes for western magic as well. I don't think you can really understand the real living magic behind, say, Crowley's work or the Solomonic grimoires, without taking into account the specifics of time and place and personality that brought that magic into being, all the surrounding factors that fed into it, and exactly why it came into the world in the particular shape that it did.

This should be common sense, really. But to a large extent, in occult circles, it isn't - and people quite frequently approach, for instance, Crowley, and read him as an authority on magic without anything more than a peripheral awareness of the culture he was embedded in and how his perspectives on magic may have been shaped by the time, place and circumstances in which he was writing and the specifics of his upbringing and conditioned personality. Nothing exists in a bubble, least of all magic.
 
 
illmatic
11:34 / 11.07.07
the mechanistic "cheat codes to the universe" approach

Good post.

I think we can contextualise this statement actually. It tells me, simply, that "people who write about magic on the internet tend to play a lot of computer games".
 
 
illmatic
11:36 / 11.07.07
And I'd add, putting English magic in the context of our culture, the countercultures it aligned with, intellectual and social trends (from consumerism to post modernism), my awareness of history, scenes and so forth, it makes it all so much richer for me.
 
 
Quantum
12:06 / 11.07.07
On a slightly different tack, I like to check the background to a trad or practice to make sure it's not a big old lie. I've often found people telling me stuff which turns out later to be fabrication they were unwittingly passing on because they'd never checked it out, they'd been told it and believed it e.g. the ancient druidic roots of Wicca.
I love to find out the roots and history of stuff like the Tarot, partly for a greater understanding of the technique (very much agreeing with Medallion's post there about sigils) but also just to satisfy my intellectual curiosity. Tracing a hypothetical golden chain through history is great fun, and often throws up fascinating relations I'd never otherwise have known, and top magic trivia facts.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:16 / 11.07.07
putting English magic in the context of our culture, the countercultures it aligned with, intellectual and social trends (from consumerism to post modernism), my awareness of history, scenes and so forth, it makes it all so much richer for me.

Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the reasons why the accusations of cultural appropriation come up against something like chaos magic is its frequent inability to fully understand that it is as much a product of culture and context as anything else. It's not a broad meta-paradigm on everything else, not really. It's something that has very specifically developed in a certain time and place, largely from interrelated countercultures, with quite clear and traceable roots a lot of the time.

Looking at this stuff in context like this has really given me an deeper understanding and deeper respect for English magic, where it has come from, how it has never really gone away, but just wells up from time-to-time in new forms driven largely by eccentrics who pick up the baton every few years and do something new with it.

If you place English magic in context, you have a culture where magic has been stamped on, denied, suppressed, outlawed and pushed to the very edges of society. But there is still this strong magical visionary vein that doesn't go away, and rises to the surface in lots of different ways from generation to generation.
 
 
Ticker
12:27 / 11.07.07
What I think is important, however, for any magician approaching the magic of a culture other than their own, is an understanding of the context in which the ideas you are encountering came to be. You have to situate what you are looking at within its own culture and context to be able to understand it. Without that willingness to step into another culture and experience its magic from that culture's perspective, rather than the perspective of a detached western observer, then you are never really going to get to grips with what it actually is - and that's when it becomes a shallow one-sided cultural appropriation, rather than a vibrant cultural cross-fertilisation.


For myself there is another layer here which is the constant awareness that while I maybe embracing as much as I can about another culture's magic certain factors will always inform my perspective differently then someone who is native to that culture. This is not to say my view point is of less value but rather I need to mind my manners about how I present my relationship with that culture and present myself as having knowledge about that culture. I find keeping my position with the culture, my lens of perception, visible allows a more honest presentation and representation.

For example working with Neolithic Deities from Ireland begins for me with the aknowledgement that I am neither a Neolithic practitioner having their experiences, nor a modern Irish practitioner having their experiences, but rather a modern American practitioner having my experiences. My relationships with the Deities, which interact with the other experiences to some extent, pay respect to them and so access what GL mentions as vibrant cultural cross-fertilisation without what I frame as the problematic misappropriation of another culture. I could be absolutely wrong but so far it seems to be working.
 
 
illmatic
12:28 / 11.07.07
partly for a greater understanding of the technique (very much agreeing with Medallion's post there about sigils)

I think you might be misunderstanding me there slighly, Q. It's not really about an understanding of "technique" - in the sense that I understand it so I can then technically "get better", then the magic "starts working". I really don't think magic is like that. It's more an appreciation, a enrichment of my understanding of the mix of influences. And this, funnily enough, is what "makes me get better" - an appreciation of other people's creativity and the way they chose to engage with the world, or use these theories - it's this that inspires my own efforts.
 
 
Quantum
15:03 / 11.07.07
Replace 'technique' with 'practice' or 'thing'. I meant having a broader understanding makes the thing more worthwhile. Not making your magic more l33t, but more rewarding, satisfying, fun or enriching.

Similarly, I understand philosophical theories better when I know about the person who concocted them and the environment they were fostered in.
 
 
shockoftheother
16:11 / 11.07.07
With regard to Dave Evans' book mentioned upthread - I had a chance to have a read of it this weekend, and I found it to be an interesting account, though I don't think it's in any sense definitive. In particular, it's very much concerned with a particular subset of British magic post-Crowley, and it's a shame that the relation of the Grant/TOPY/IOT/Chaos folk to the other parts of the British magical scene weren't explored in greater depth. It's in some sense a skewed history, and certainly still bears the marks of its origin as a PhD thesis, but it's also the first work I've seen directly addressing that period.

What I find particularly interesting about that period is how much the worldview depended on the material circumstances of those involved - so much of it came out of squat culture at the time, at least in Manchester and London, and there are a couple of features of that worldview that really bear testament to those origins. The streak of antinomianism distinct from the optimistic discordianism of hippydom, but in particular the sheer ferocity of chaos magic in wanting both to deal directly with the world and assert its authority over all its contents. I don't think it's too crass to see this as a parallel with the precariousness of the social situation in which it developed.

One thing that's rarely addressed is the status of most of us as converts, in that we did not grow up thinking in magical terms, and the way in which this conversion takes place - without recourse to the historicised understanding that Gypsy Lantern refers to above. This is particularly true these days, with the wealth of magical data available on the internet or in bookshops, but too all too often divested of the context and historical narrative in which they arise. (I think the dialectic between the sytematising trend and the humanising trend is a difficult and often conflicted one in western magic, and one that has a long history - Kircher et al's appropriation of the Kabbalah and the way in which it transforms from the heavily *narrative* way of thinking in the Bahir & Zohar, to the highly abstracted, categorical system of Mathers and the like.)

What's interesting, though, is the ways in which the habits of thinking and practice of the convert differ from those of the second or even third generation of families who have converted. Hanging out with a few people who have been brought up in pagan or magical families, I find myself fascinated by the extent to which those things permeate everyday existence in a way that that's unfortunately uncommon within the wider community. Of course, there are advantages to either position, and I'd also suggest that there's a contextualising role taken on my the oral aspect of living traditions that is absent in chaos magic - not so much a spooky great treasure trove of oral lore as little tics and unconscious practices that you're socialised into that permeate everyday life.

I'd also point out that really understanding the Solomonic cycle of grimoires and their related texts requires an understanding of their theological context, and the way in which folk magic existed at all social levels (not simply the illiterate peasant) prior to the reformation - Duffy's Stripping of the Altars, which is a fantastic book anyway, has some good work on this in it. The reformation is so widely taught historically as to become culturally invisible, but a lot of what modern magicians take for granted, particularly in terms of the emphasis on the personal autonomy of the individual soul, is ultimately the responsibility of the reformation and its historical offspring.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
09:09 / 12.07.07
The streak of antinomianism distinct from the optimistic discordianism of hippydom, but in particular the sheer ferocity of chaos magic in wanting both to deal directly with the world and assert its authority over all its contents. I don't think it's too crass to see this as a parallel with the precariousness of the social situation in which it developed.

That's an interesting point, shock. A relationship between periods of social turbulence and "occult revivals" has been posited many times. It might be useful then, to consider Chaos Magic as (semi-seriously) one of the 'magical children' of Margaret Thatcher. The 1980s was a turbulent decade in many ways, but it also was a period of rapid growth in what might be termed "pagan/occult sociability" - here I'm thinking of the growth of local pagan moots & other social gatherings; a rise of interest in networking (i.e. PaganLink) and umbrella organisations (the Pagan Federation); the UK's occult conference scene via events such as the Oxford Thelemic Symposium and the use of Conway Hall in London by various organisations (from the Fellowship of Isis to the IOT); the rapid growth of pagan/occult 'zine culture (occasioned by the appearence of low-cost computers and DTP applications). The "Satanic Child Abuse" moral panic, coming in at the latter end of the 80's is also a significant factor imo as it created something of crisis of identfication within the emerging pagan/occult "scene". The period also saw the return of radical politics into occult discourses (at both ends of the spectrum).

I'd also suggest that there's a contextualising role taken on by the oral aspect of living traditions that is absent in chaos magic...

Again, an interesting point - which brings to mind for me the way text/books are privileged as sources of knowledge in contemporary western culture, but this begs the question, how much of an individual's "knowledge" (in the widest sense) of magic comes from books and how much from discurvise practices? A study which may be of interest here is Kristina Wirtz's "Speaking a Sacred World" which examines how Cuban Santeros discursive activities frame their experience of ritual. This interests me, as there seems to have been comparatively little examination of the "oral" aspects of western approaches to magic.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:52 / 12.07.07
Great post, shockoftheother! That Duffy book looks really good. Another one for the reading list...

I agree that the evolution of chaos magic out of squat culture in places like Leeds and London is really prevalent in a lot of its magical DNA. Placing it in its context, as something evolving directly out of a certain time, place, people and circumstances - and then situating that within the wider context of British occultism - actually makes chaos magic seem really exciting again, rather than the shallow caricature that exists all over the internet. It's only by looking at these things in context that we can actually understand them to any degree.

There is a tendency in occultism to treat things like chaos magic or Thelema as... almost like fan clubs or something. Ongoing "currents" that are largely exclusive and which you sign up to and then operate within the parameters of. It's a bit like being part of a hive. Belonging to something, and gaining a measure of identity from that. "I'm a chaos magician", "I'm a Thelemite", "I'm a Wiccan", etc. It's possibly a symptom of the degree to which magic and counterculture have always been closely intertwined in British magic, because you can really draw parallels with the tribal identities that people derive from counterculture groups: "I'm a mod", "I'm a rocker" and so on.

In reality, in both counterculture and occult practice, I think these definitions are always a bit more slippery and never as rigidly demarcated as they might appear on the surface. I think the desire to belong to a group and derive identity from ones chosen field of magical exploration is something that really needs to be unpacked and unravelled. Trying to understand the cultural context of such movements - where the ideas came from, the conditions that brought them into being, the factors that shaped a tradition into the form you have received it, etc – gives you a much better sense of the magic and your relationship to it. Instead of trying to shoehorn yourself into the parameters of a group identity, it becomes more about recognising and understanding the complexity of your relationships with a set of ideas that emerged at a certain moment in history.

(I'm not sure how well I'm explaining what I'm getting at here. Late night last night.)

Another thing that occured to me, looking at the "Useful techniques for a well-rounded sorceror" thread, is how the actual magic that a person practices is best understood within the context of their practice as a whole, where they are coming from, their lives and circumstances. I haven't added anything to that thread because I'm not sure I can really extract a specific "technique" that I use, and have it make the same sort of sense outside of the context of my wider practice. The magic I practice is an organic whole, and - for instance - the sorcery that I work is something really heavily embedded within a huge range of other factors, relationships with deity, personal history with those deities, stuff that has been imparted in dreams, secret things that I've been shown by spirits. If I wrote any of this up and put it in a thread - even a simple thing like a recipe for a condition oil or mojo bag - it just wouldn't mean the same thing to someone else. The magic exists in the context, more than the details. As an example, something like Five Finger Grass has a complex chain of association for me, that has developed over the 8 years or so that I've been using it as an ingredient in certain types of spell work. Those associations and that complex relationship with the plant is not going to be there for someone coming to a recipe cold. There would be no context for it, and without that complex ecology of meaning in place, two people could externally perform exactly the same physical actions and be in totally different places internally, having totally different experiences in the heat of the magic, and not really be doing the same thing at all. Technique without context is often only half the story.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
11:49 / 12.07.07
I agree that the evolution of chaos magic out of squat culture in places like Leeds and London is really prevalent in a lot of its magical DNA.

Well, I'd be wary of overdetermining the connection between CM and the squat scene - although I think it'd be fair to say that there was an interchange between people who were squatting getting interested in magic and people who self-identified as "magicians" who'd squatted at one time or another. I spent a few years on the fringes of the Leeds squat scene - I wasn't squatting myself, but a lot of my friends were, so I spent a lot of time hanging out in squats and made use of various projects which came out of the scene in Leeds - like the Claimant's Union and the squat cafe and the "scene" 'zine, No Limits. This was about the same time that Ray Sherwin was the main 'mover and shaker' on the Leeds/West Yorkshire occult scene, notable amongst a lot of the people hanging around (myself included) as he had both a business and a large, three-storey detached house outside Keighley, and his shop, Id Aromatics, became a local meeting point for magicians. The other main meeting point was the University Occult Society, out of which came word-of-mouth-spread pub meetings and endless parties. There was also the Leeds & Bradford pagan moots, but as far as I can recall, there wasn't an awful lot of cross-over between the moot people and the University crowd, or for that matter, between the squat scene people and the occultists. I think, in part, that this may have been due to class & educational background factors, rather than people having exclusive identifications with one magical genre or another - it was more to do with intersecting friendship networks than anything else.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
09:39 / 13.07.07
Apropos Chaos Magic, I think helps contextualise it's early development further if one sees it as a reaction to the dominant magical discourses of the 1970s.

Also, I think there's a cross-over between this discussion and the risen gods thread, as the idea we're critiquing here - that magical "technologies" are seperate to culture - divested of the context and historical narrative in which they arise as shockof thenew puts it so eloquently, to some extent was popularised by the universalist comparitivists being critiqued there - I'm thinking of Campbell in particular, but also Eliade and Jung. All three shared, to varying degrees, the belief that all forms of religiosity were "masks" of an essential transcendental truth. This, I think, on one level, explains their popularity for occultists, as they seem to have been taken as "scientific" legitimation for the perennialist enthusiasms of occultists which, one might argue, chaos magic attempted to challenge in some senses, but in actuality substituted "universal essence" with "universal techniques".

You can see a similar development with Michael Harner's "Core Shamanism" which has led to a lively (and sometimes bitter) debate amongst both contemporary practitioners and academics over matters of cultural appropriation, universalism, etc. See Rob Wallis' Journeying the Politics of Ecstasy:Anthropological Perspectives on Neoshamanism for some thoughts on this. I'd also recommend his book Shamans / neo-Shamans: Ecstasy, Alternative Archaeologies and Contemporary Pagans for a useful (and balanced) overview of the debate.

thoughts?
 
 
illmatic
09:54 / 13.07.07
I'm afraid I don't have the time to add much at the moment as I'm off out the door away for the weekend. I just wanted to say that I'm really happy with the way this thread has gone. It's simulated a ton of ideas for me some of which I will endeavor to share as soon as I'm back.
 
 
shockoftheother
09:45 / 14.07.07
Lots of good stuff here. Yes, I think care has to be taken when ascribing origins to chaos magic, which was, after all, a confluence of a lot of historical and cultural factors. I've occasionally described Pete Carroll's magical writing as the most Thatcherite sort of magic I've ever encountered, and while that's not entirely accurate, I think there's something in it. What it particularly underlines is that just as Thatcherite economics can't deal with the crises of the post-Thatcher generation, utilitarian chaos magic is inadequate in the face of the spiritual crises it chose to write off. As has been highlighted above and elsewhere, one of chaos magic's major problems is the way in which it positions itself as central signifier in the magical universe and the hubris that inevitably generates... and thus can't account for any magic in which the magician is simply a vector of transformation in a larger social context - because, after all, there is no such thing as society.

But then, it's also important to consider the Fortune-inspired ethereal handwaving chaos magic was in some ways responding to, which can be just as solipsistic and narcissistic, with the added benefit of all sorts of dubious theosophical 'racial archetypes' and the like thrown into the mix. In some ways the political character of British magic in the first half of the 20th century is a bit of an anomaly, in that the political positions of its major figures aren't ravingly fascist or incorrigibly communist, but are mostly casual, laissez-faire libertarian conservatives or, slightly earlier, flaky Fabians. Contrast this to the explicitly political occult movements of the time both on the continent and USA (Evola et al and the fascist crossover come most immediately to mind) and it should be surprising that radical political positions don't emerge until long into the post-war period.

Gypsy, you make a good point when talking about magical groups as 'fan clubs' and the like. On a similar note, I tend to see parallels between the formation of the artistic avant-garde and the occult orders of the 20th century. If you read stuff like the futurist manifestos and Ezra Pound's Imagist essays, as well as literary periodicals (Eliot's Criterion f'rinstance), you get the impression of these vast movements which are actually mostly individuals writing on their own - however, the strategies of publication, and naming movements and organisations tends to attract a bunch of other people. You can see Crowley doing the same thing - using publication in order to bring something into existence. It's something that carried on through 'zine culture to the present day. Even in something like the queercore movement or the proliferation of industrial culture (both of which had important occult crossovers) you got the impression of something much larger happening through the way in which publication was employed.

Anyway. As far as context is concerned... I think there's something to be said about the way in which magical identities are created these days. If you look at Ficino, Pico, Dee and that lot, you get the impression that the way in which their magic worked was in uncovering a grand, unified system of wisdom (a prisca theologia, in point of fact), but the way in which a lot of people are working these days *claims* to be a single, closed system in the context of multiple possible systems. As Gypsy ponts out above, I just don't think that's the way in which it works in practice. Firstly, I don't think any system in which my magic operates would ever claim to be closed or static, but more importantly, it's always already implicated in a dialogue with those other systems of approach to the mysteries. And the fact that that dialogue can take place will tell you a lot about western systems of magic and the extent to which they are related and the extent to which they are distinct. This, of course, is where we enter difficult territory, because the temptation is to universalise or atomise and either response has its problems.

My fundamental difficulty with the roadmap to the universe-style magical systems ("We now enter the 32nd path, where we will see...") is not only that they tend to ignore the historical context in which they're implicated but that they also allow no room for grace and mystery. There are a million and one ways to rend the veil, but no-one can tell you what's behind it.

I'm fairly sure this reply was more coherent in my head...
 
 
trouser the trouserian
07:48 / 17.07.07
I've just completed an initial reading of Evans' book - and as shockofthenew says (and the author himself admits) it is very much concerned with a subset of British magic post-Crowley. I was surprised though, that there is absolutely no mention (much less discussion of) the British ceremonial magic organisations such as the Order of the Cubic Stone, Servants of the Light (which claims to have 6,000 members), International Order of Kabbalists, etc., or luminaries such as Dolores Ashcroft-Nowicki, Tony Willis, Bill Gray or Gareth Knight. If nothing else, some discussion of these groups & personalities would have provided a bit of context against which to discuss Kenneth Grant or chaos magic.

Maybe it's just me, but the book seemed to lack a central focus - it seemd very "bitty" (if you know what I mean). Also, although it has to be said that it's an accessible read, I personally wouldn't have minded a bit more cultural analysis - the section on Orientalism for example, I thought was rather weak.
 
 
EvskiG
13:17 / 17.07.07
Maybe it's just me, but the book seemed to lack a central focus - it seemed very "bitty"

Yep. It was topic, intro, subtopic, three pages of discussion, new subtopic, another three pages of discussion, and then new topic. Over and over again.
 
 
Quantum
13:33 / 17.07.07
What do people feel is the current context? What magical movement are we in now? I know these things are labelled in hindsight and partly constructed by historians, but what do you think the occultists of ten years time will be saying about what we're doing now?

What *are* we doing now? It's very difficult to see common strands when you're in the thick of it, but my perspective suggests a lot of people's practice is addressing 'the spiritual crises CM chose to write off' to steal shockoftheother's phrase.
Although I'm intrigued by people's thoughts on this, I'm wary of the 'how will our decade be remembered' sort of fallacy, because they're almost always wrong. If any cohesive movement is identified in the future it could easily be the rise of the internet and it's influence on groups, or the prevalence of cats or monkeys for all I know.
 
 
illmatic
14:31 / 17.07.07
What's interesting, though, is the ways in which the habits of thinking and practice of the convert differ from those of the second or even third generation of families who have converted. Hanging out with a few people who have been brought up in pagan or magical families, I find myself fascinated by the extent to which those things permeate everyday existence in a way that that's unfortunately uncommon within the wider community

I think this is a really interesting point and one which deserves drawing out. Magic, in our culture, exists in a context which denies it’s existence and most of our practice takes place in the hidden spaces of our lives - away from friends, relatives and workmates, and so on – and obviously, it’s marginal nature is part of it’s attraction for the rebellious, the eccentric and so forth. I think one of the most powerful things one can do is to create communities – however small where one can share these understandings, whatever form they take. They may not have the depth and integration with one’s life that shockoftheother mentions with regards to the families s/he has known, but in my own life and practice, I’ve found this communal context really valuable.
 
 
illmatic
14:55 / 17.07.07
With regards to the depth with which these communities can reach into one's life - this is one of the things that annoyed me a little about the discussion we had about Pop Culture Magic a while back. PCM is based on the the construction of magical systems based on pop culture - now nothing inherently wrong with that, though it's interesting that the sources of inspiration are typical "geek fare" - RPGs, anime and sci-fi - but there didn't seem to be much recognition that the status of a Voodoo practioner in Haiti or a Muslim in pre-partition India was radically different from a privileged Western consumer getting a few people take the piss out of him for going to Star Wars conventions. A minor moan but I guess I'm trying to point towards the differences between ourselves, as largely secular, individalistic Western consumers, and religion or spiritual practice as an ethnic and cultural identity - one that may be enough to attract significant persecution.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
10:13 / 18.07.07
Coming back to shock's points regarding conversion. I've been reflecting a lot recently about my own 'conversion' to magical practice, and in particular the way I absorbed a lot of material (mostly from books) without really challenging or critiquing any of it. The way I tend to think about it now, is that it wasn't so much that I firmly believed all the stuff I was reading, but it seemed to hang together - it made sense in a way that satisfied my yearning for a worldview and the soul-searching & sense of personal crisis that prompted it. Tanya Luhrmann refers to this process as "interpretive drift" - “the slow, often unacknowledged shift in someone’s manner of interpreting events as they become involved with a particular activity” - a process which speeded up for me once I actually started meeting other people into magic/paganism and having conversations with them - also going to lectures and so forth. I think it's useful to see this as a form of socialisation - a gradual acquisition of a new interpretive framework, including a different vocabulary and set of symbols - which I then used to interpret and frame the experiences I was having - which in turn, validated the framework as legitimate for me.

...after all, there is no such thing as society.

I think this is quite a good point. There's a lot of occult writing - particular in texts coming out the 1970s-80s that presents a view of society as something that the "individual" has to distance themselves from. There's a common refrain that "mainstream society" is something that has to be overcome, transcended (or subverted) in order to recover a sense of an "authentic nature". There's also often an emphasis on the restrictiveness of 'normative' life roles and the workplace. So there's a great deal of emphasis placed on "deconditioning" in pursuit of "freedom" but, often without the caveat that becoming an occultist is in itself another form of socialisation. Other people ("sheeple") conform, occultists don't - an attitude that has been critiqued heavily on barbelith.
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:51 / 18.07.07
A society that includes occult view points without occluding them or the associated lifestyles would probably have alot less dichotomy between conformity and 'free' deconditioned individuals. If popular culture is anything to go by the occult would seem to be becoming more popular, which may indicate a change in attitude, i would hope. Something that i see on a variety of online message boards is older religous/spiritual people expressing how they used to have an occult background but have moved on, to something more serious/meaningful. While the occult is in some sense still considered outside i can see that being the case, but as the occult becomes a part of pop culture, i do not think that will necessarily remain the case. The occult will no longer be occult.

I sense from intuition that society's and individuals will be becoming more integrating through interests and view points, i think comes from spending a large amount of time with the internet and looking at how the meaning and concepts behind technology are beginning to reformulate social and individual relationships, within self and to others.

The whole notion of deconditioning seems to result in reconditioning, at least i have never been able to keep a state of natural mind for a long period of time, but a part of me hopes there are those that can.
 
 
Saturn's nod
11:41 / 20.07.07
@Wolfangel The occult will no longer be occult.

I think this is a really interesting one. What does 'occult' mean? I think in a sense 'occult' could be regarded as a term for any almost-functional mindhacks cut off from the context which made them useful. If they actually worked, they'd be more widely known and used - they'd have a more secure place in the wider social mind?

I see glimmers of functional mind-spirit-tech from people's investigations, but it's mostly a social hobby of poking around in the junkyard of history and imagination, trying to work out what the machine was meant to be for in the first place, and then what it looked like before that essential spring pinged away. Cargo cults, form without function, with the attraction coming from the personal magnetism and claims of various charismatic writers and speakers and the very human yearning for shortcuts to competence?
 
  

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