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No Compromise? Limits of your ethical stance.

 
 
Saturn's nod
15:20 / 04.06.07
I'd like to discuss appropriate limits of ethical actions.
I believe that taking an ethical stance from conviction is a really good idea and can produce real change in the world. But, none of us can do everything.

Where do you draw lines about how far you are willing to go with ethical actions? How do you make those decisions?

Example: I normally eat only animal products from organic agriculture, preferably local too. But, I'm also severely gluten-intolerant, which alone is hard enough to get caterers to understand. I'm travelling to a scientific meeting in Eastern Europre at the end of the month, and I've told them I need gluten free food, but I've not tried to insist the organisers ensure I'm provided with food that's not factory farmed.

I've been wrestling with my priorities - is it really important that I go to this conference, which is prestigious and would be a really good move in my research career? Is it important enough to stay with a baseline of non-factory-farmed food that I should book extra baggage and take enough food to live on for 10 days(!)? (That might be a good idea, because it would have the added advantage of making sure I didn't get poisoned; but it's a huge hassle, an expense, and might be a bit boring, I've no guarantee of access to cooking facilities.) Important enough for me to decide I might be able to put something in my mouth which I suspect to be factory farmed?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
07:37 / 05.06.07
Where do you draw lines about how far you are willing to go with ethical actions? How do you make those decisions?

You ought to challenge yourself, but there's no point trying to act outside your capabilities - or expecting other people to - for example, not expecting large, poor families to happily start buying expensive organic food from "upmarket" shops.

I never, ever spend money in McDonalds, and have not done so for ten years now, which profit loss may not seem like much but is equivalent to two rainforest trees on their badly-managed, abusive and wasteful South American plantations, and every tree is worth something. Nor do I own a car, and I don't intend to ever own one. These are both easy to start and easy to stick to, for me.
 
 
stabbystabby
12:53 / 06.06.07
as a fellow gluten intolerant academic, i'd say: just go. you can't expect to have every single thing you eat be ethically farmed, and you shouldn't let the occasional lapse affect your career.

that said, taking some food to make sure you have something to eat if it turns out their gluten free options are not (and boy, does that happen disturbingly option) is probably a good idea. though you can probably pick up some safe stuff at the markets if you need to.

my personal ethics? well, gluten free comes first, otherwise i'm in bed for days. after that: local veg where i can, low food chain as far as possible (i need protein, but usually stick to free range chicken and eggs) and i try to avoid imported foods. i do think it's important to allow yourself the occasional pass - i'm pretty sure the chicken they use at the Tibetan Kitchen isn't free range, but my monthly chicken curry keeps me happy.

oh, and i must say, people who piss and moan about my occasional chicken curry but who smoke (pesticide laden, monocultured) tobacco constantly can fuck right off.
 
 
_pin
10:52 / 11.06.07
Sorry, stab - and I do realise that this whole thing may be the result of your unfortunate and irreverseable dietary condition - but could you please explain in what way the harm done to living plants via dubious agricultral practises on the dime of smokers is commensurable with the harm done to poultry via battery farming methods?

Thank you.
 
 
stabbystabby
11:16 / 11.06.07
the environmental damage done by the tobacco farming necessary to sustain a pack-a-day habit is substantially more than that necessary to raise a chicken.

that's all.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:58 / 11.06.07
The point here is surely whether one prioritises the suffering of individual animals (and does not recognise the suffering of individual plants), or cares more about overall environmental damage. This is before one even gets into which industry has better working conditions, or what kind of impact on physical health each product has. Equivocating between different ethical values/priorities one may hold can be a complex negotiation even before you factor in things like convenience and the debt to pleasure...
 
 
_pin
12:05 / 11.06.07
I was confused, because the enviromental damage of raising a free-range chicken is a lot higher then factory-farming them, which mostly seems to demand electricty (simply to get renewably) and saline solution, and so free-range chicken tends to be chosen as kinder to the animals rather then the ecosystem.

This wasn't an attempt at foisting animal-related priorities, but rather a misdiagnosis of them. Appologies.
 
 
_pin
12:09 / 11.06.07
All that said, however, I'm unclear as to why one should be able to foreclose debate, in the Head Shop, in a thread about the extent of personal responsiblity for the consequences of our actions, around issues one raises, but does not wish to discuss.
 
 
stabbystabby
12:28 / 11.06.07
didn't mean to foreclose debate - rather to express my annoyance at those who happily recognise their own need for personal indulgence yet don't respect mine.

to clarify: i recognise that my occasional chicken curry is somewhat of an ethical lapse. i accept that, as i am human, and consider my ongoing happiness an acceptable tradeoff for the lapse. I get annoyed however at those who allow themselves similar ethical lapses, but judge me for mine.

my previous comment was a bit hasty - though i do feel strongly about tobacco - and i don't really feel there's necessarily more or less ethical value in not smoking/not eating chicken.
 
 
Saturn's nod
12:42 / 11.06.07
Thanks all for saving my thread from sinking without trace, esp that's a stabbing for helpful encouragement.

@_pin the enviromental damage of raising a free-range chicken is a lot higher then factory-farming them, which mostly seems to demand electricty (simply to get renewably) and saline solution

Is it so? I think there's a lot in how the costs are counted. I like energetics as a baseline count - low-energy solutions are likely to also have few adverse impacts. The last set of figures I looked at indicated that a battery egg cost 9* the calories to produce as it yielded, and that less intensive (free-range) cultivation was energetically much more favourable, but I'm interested to see your working. Are you counting materials costs for the cages and the routine antibiotics and so on?

Having free-range chickens fed on kitchen scraps and scavenging from marginal land, contributing fertiliser (the famous 'chicken tractor' arrangement) I think counts low wrt environmental harm - few fossil fuel inputs, positive benefit from human waste, increasing soil capital and localising food production, & no toxic products. Possibly even positive environmental good in terms of increasing biodiversity and maintaining diverse gene pools.
 
 
Ticker
14:15 / 11.06.07
I struggle with this on a daily basis. I have dietary restrictions and now I'm adding avoidance of plastic packaging to my organic free range humane list of requirements. It's now as complex a food sourcing event as when I was vegan.

I think bringing your own food is always the best option because as stated upthread you exercise complete control over not poisoning yourself. Then it also comes inline with your ethics. I imagine keeping kosher must provide a huge amount of challenges when dining outside of the home?

One of my friends is electing to eat only kosher meat as the humane method of slaughter required is of a higher standard than regular slaughter requirements,

My spouse makes an effort to support my choices but has made it clear ze is not able to go to the extreme that I strive for. For example my new habit of washing saran/cling wrap to reuse and my old habit of washing plastic shopping bags strikes hir as just too much.
 
 
*
15:20 / 11.06.07
A friend of mine who was traveling in my area last year showed me something of what it's like to travel and eat strictly kosher. He brought all his own utensils, mostly disposable except for the cookware, and ate a lot of packaged food. Unfortunately despite the cultural richness of the area I live in, there is nothing like a really kosher deli or market here.
 
 
_pin
21:12 / 11.06.07
Saturn's nod:

I think there's a lot in how the costs are counted. I like energetics as a baseline count - low-energy solutions are likely to also have few adverse impacts. The last set of figures I looked at indicated that a battery egg cost 9* the calories to produce as it yielded, and that less intensive (free-range) cultivation was energetically much more favourable, but I'm interested to see your working. Are you counting materials costs for the cages and the routine antibiotics and so on?

Having free-range chickens fed on kitchen scraps and scavenging from marginal land, contributing fertiliser (the famous 'chicken tractor' arrangement) I think counts low wrt environmental harm - few fossil fuel inputs, positive benefit from human waste, increasing soil capital and localising food production, & no toxic products. Possibly even positive environmental good in terms of increasing biodiversity and maintaining diverse gene pools.


While I odn't think it's going to shock you to know that I don't have figures to hand, the working was based on the assumption that the battery itself was a single fixed cost, and that land used was minimal, yeilding a much higher ammount of both eggs and chicken meat for much less space (which could otherwise be used for growing other foods).

Certainly chickens fed on waste and kept on arable land would be an ideal form of self-generating protein, but I don't think that reflects the reality of free range poultry farms, although I may be wrong about that. The rruthless efficiencies of battery farming seem, basically, a more efficient use of land, feed, etc., minimising the ammount of wastage that may be generated through chickens doing things and having space and so forth.

I may be wrong, of course, but within commerical farming outfits I can't see why free range farming would have less enviromental impact then battery farming, bearing in mind that there is nothing innately organic or inorganic about either practise, when taking in to account land use, efficient carcas use, etc. (how much free range mechanically recovered chicken meat is there, for instance?) If you can show me that commercial free range chicken farming feeds more people per unit of land used (both in raising the chickens and growing their feed) then battery farming them or not eating them, bearing in mind that it's hardly unlikely that battery farms would use their massive flat surfaces to harvest solar energy, then you have a point. Others, I don't thik the free range chicken thing as most enviromentally friendly option is even an ethical stance to begin with, let alone one that can be compromised.
 
 
Ticker
21:47 / 11.06.07
I was looking into the kosher options and it seems you can get a great variety purchased online and then mailed.

For family holidays with the inlaws where I can't bring enough food on the plane to last my stay I'm seriously thinking about mailing myself a care package of limited perishable food.
 
 
stabbystabby
21:51 / 11.06.07
bearing in mind that there is nothing innately organic or inorganic about either practise, when taking in to account land use, efficient carcas use, etc.

presumably free range organic chicken would be, er, organic, no?

as far as i'm aware, the ecological footprint of locally raised, organically farmed free range chicken is substantially lower than battery hens. once you take into account the production of the hormones and antibiotics, the massive amounts of guano, (free range chickens should be in a fairly balanced ecosystem where their waste is reused - battery chickens create vaste amounts of waste which is either dumped or fed to cattle) and the issue of chicken hormones polluting humans and being passed into the water supply, disrupting the reproductive cycles of other animals - well, i can't see how battery hens could possibly be better. when you add that to the unnecessary cruelty of caging, well.

i don't think there is a mechanically separated free range chicken on the market, but efficient use of the carcass? just make chicken soup!

i've been thinking about the plastic issue too lately - i always take canvas bags, and i've never used saran wrap (i just use tupperware) but some things are hard to get without plastic. i'm eating fruit instead of drinking juice, and have cut out most other plastic wrapped stuff, but it's hard to cut it out entirely. i stopped buying doublewrapped stuff years ago.

doing it kosher is an interesting tradeoff - i'm not sure i'd do it, as cutting down on plastic is important to me - but i can certainly relate to cooking all your own stuff. god, what a pain that is.

----

i was chatting to a mate about this very issue recently and he's decided to stop being vegan and focus on using only local food - he feels that it's more important to live ecologically than to be vegan at all costs, which i feel is valid cause a lot of vegan food (aside from raw veges and fruit) in australia is imported, thus negating its positive environmental value.
 
 
_pin
05:36 / 12.06.07
Well, yes, stab, but I said that there wasn't anything innately organic or not organic about factory and free range farming so, like, yes.

Also, what still hasn't been addressed is the relative numbers of people fed via each farming method or other, alternative, uses of the land. And if free range chickens can be fed on waste and are good for the land they're kept on, why are they so expensive and awkward that local, organic, free range restaurants can't seem to source a supply (in england at least)?
 
 
Saturn's nod
06:16 / 12.06.07
Certainly chickens fed on waste and kept on arable land ...

Can I take it you mean marginal land? I think it's fairly important not to use the most fertile and productive land that could otherwise grow direct human food (arable) to keep livestock, but instead to keep them on land that's not otherwise productive (marginal): hence game and poultry from sustainable woodlands, cows on water-meadows and floodplains, sheep on fells, urban livestock in commons and gardens and so on.

As for the availability of organic free range hens, the supermarkets round here manage it: sainsbury's, tesco, (even though wrapped in plastic, thumbs down). I don't have a local organic restaurant that I know of, so I've not had that conversation with the buyer of one.
 
 
_pin
07:46 / 12.06.07
S's N; I meant land that was to be used for growing crops once fertalised by chicken excrement; otherwise why would their depositing fertiliser on the land they are kept on be a benefit we can count?

Also, still, how many people are being fed by this system (a) ideally? and (b) by the farms supplying Tescos, etc.? What are the individual footprints of each carcass, and each egg, rather then that of the farm as a whole?
 
 
Blake Head
17:06 / 15.06.07
Certainly chickens fed on waste and kept on arable land would be an ideal form of self-generating protein, but I don't think that reflects the reality of free range poultry farms, although I may be wrong about that.

I’m currently in the middle of Michael Pollan’s The Omnivore’s Dilemma which has a lot to say on this very subject.

Though he doesn’t make a direct comparison of free range farming and battery farming, Pollan does note that, in order to operate on a larger scale, ethical farming methods increasingly incorporate industrial practices to remain competitive, and that accordingly (in a section where he’s indirectly quite scathing about the reality of portions of the American ethical food industry) there’s significantly less difference environmentally between (for example) organic and non-organic methodology than one might have hoped for. To qualify for free range status might mean slightly larger cages, or hens which a limited period of access to the outside from where they’re held, rather than the more benign pastoral image of them roaming around freely, to qualify for “organic” status might mean the restriction but not elimination of synthetic elements.

At several points he mentions Whole Foods – which I believe is primarily a large chain of expensive American ethical/organic supermarkets – any U.S. ‘lithers want to confirm what it’s like shopping there? The point being, that to exist as a national chain there’s a need for national distribution which offsets a great deal of the original environmental benefits to the products, and that appears to be a much greater environmental benefit to local and seasonal, as opposed to say organic, produce. I imagine that there’s at least to some degree a similar story with somewhere like Tesco.

One of Pollan’s counter-examples to the above, rotational farming, has exactly what’s described above, chickens being kept whose excrement is used as fertiliser for pastures in which livestock grazes, and who in turn help to keep the livestock healthy by picking parasites out of the livestock's droppings. Even in the reductive summary I’m giving you: better for the chickens, better for the livestock, better for the land, better for the consumer. There are so many variables as to determine whether it’s overall better for the environment as a whole that I’d struggle to offer a conclusion, certainly the impression I got was that it’s sustainable, in that the land doesn’t need to be supplemented by lots of fertiliser, more efficient in that the animals don’t need as intensive a programme of antibiotics to keep them healthy/tasty, and more economical in that the consumers are potentially passing on the benefits of eating healthier food by being, well, healthier. The fact that this type of farming is labour-intensive, small scale and localised would be the most obvious disadvantages to why its produce is not more popularly available.

Another factor that I’m interested in is how these different methods of farming effect the movement of information: the rotational farming above is all about knowing exactly where your food comes from, organic farming uses that but idea not always perfectly, industrial farming is invested in there being as little movement of information as possible. That said, some people will not want to know that their eggs taste so good because the chickens that hatched them had access to the juicy grubs found in cowshit.

Also, what still hasn't been addressed is the relative numbers of people fed via each farming method or other, alternative, uses of the land.

I’ve a feeling that to answer that we’re going to start moving away from inquiring into the limits of one’s personal stance and into the sustainability of ethical farming at a national or global level. Would there be interest in a new thread on economics / agriculture in the Switchboard or Lab?
 
 
Blake Head
18:46 / 15.06.07
Having just been to Tesco's, there are of course multiple products with the legend "Meet one of our growers so to be fair 1) it might not be all that bad over here, 2) I might not know what I'm talking about above, which by now shouldn't be news. And that said, the (plastic) packaging of my tomatoes on the vine reveals that they've been sourced from a family-run business, environmentally produced, but transported from Cheshire. My chicken reveals only that it has been produced on farms in accordance with Tesco livestock standards, which could frankly mean anything. We'll recycle the tins because there are recycling banks nearby. All carried home in my rucksack and Bag For Life.

For me, really, it's not so much a matter of the limits of one's ethical stance, or even really a lack of information on potential ethical consequences, but that there's such a great deal of information and such a complicated series' of interlocking relationships that it's difficult to evaluate any action in this sphere with certainty on a constant basis. I almost certainly would be able to source cheaper, locally produced veg than what I find at the nearest supermarket, for example, but if it meant driving (I don't drive but hey) across town to the shop that I know definifely provides that am left unsure to what degree that will eliminate the original environmental benefits of doing so.
 
 
_pin
07:39 / 16.06.07
The question about if we should limit our own impact or seke to promote structures that limit everyone's impact, enviromentally, isn't one that moves us outside of this thread though, is it? I assume the people posting here aren't freegans, and so in some way have a constructive attitude towards the matter at hand.

I do, however, appologise for my monological gnawing away at this one point; much of my posting was done from my phone, which gave me small windows and small concerns.

On the issue at hand, Saturn's nod, I'd be inclined to not take my own food unless there was some way you could opt out of the meals being provided. There's nothing unpalatable to you about meat per se, or anything metaphysically special about local / humane preperation. I think your time would be better sepnt raising awareness about the conditions of the food production (maybe your own food would help here, but it seems a rather isolated and perhaps self-immolating form of protest), or finding people in the surrounding area more sympathetic to your wishes, and supporting them in their efforts.
 
 
Saturn's nod
10:43 / 16.06.07
There's nothing unpalatable to you about meat per se, or anything metaphysically special about local / humane preperation.

Again your assumptions about me are wrong.

I apologize for having inadvertantly given the impression that I was interested in the opinions of others about my decisions, obviously I framed this clumsily.

What I would be interested in is a discussion drawing on theories of ethics, about how each of us wrestles with and negotiates our own limits about where and how our ethical approaches interact. Hence this thread being posted in Headshop. But perhaps I do not have the time/skills to get what I want out of this discussion at the moment.

Flyboy posted above: Equivocating between different ethical values/priorities one may hold can be a complex negotiation even before you factor in things like convenience and the debt to pleasure. I thought that was starting towards points of interest. I hoped some theory might turn up which could be applied and discussed.
 
 
_pin
16:11 / 17.06.07
This is one of those times where I realise that I don't really have any theory to apply on this subject, and so this is probablly going to be all a bit Switchboard, because...

... my ethical stance generally involves seeking to promote / reward with my commerce enterprises which have the same ends as mine, and so situations where I'm having no direct input, fiscal or otherwise, are ones where I feel less strongly, i.e. while I won't buy stuff containing animal products, in hunger emergencies at work I'll stretch to a plain McVitie's digestive, which are already there in the tin.

This ties back into the comment about freeganism above, and my belief that ethical stances should be about effecting change through personal action.

But I'd be interested to hear the inputs of those whose ethical stances have relgious significance.
 
  
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