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Underground > Comic Books >

'The Boys'

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18:46 / 03.06.07

So Punisher MAX is worth picking up?

I'd say so, yes, dependent on whether you have the stomach for pretty much some of the most graphic depictions of violence and the result thereof you'll find from any major media outlet. I'll try and work a short piece on 'The Slavers' which has been pretty much the title's zenith so far in almost every respect into the thread.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

20:13 / 03.06.07

Falke: I mean, there's obviously no compulsion on you to purchase or read things you don't think particularly highly of, so why bother with The Boys and any of the comics you rate below it? I know I don't, I'm pretty sure I don't buy the top 30% of superhero comics regardless of their actual, inherent quality, and I'm pretty sure the majority of people reading and writing in this thread won't either.

Perhaps its worth talking about the issue of reader inertia here. Part of the reason some readers seem to be sticking with The Boys seems to be inertia, or frustration with the superhero genre but never quite getting out of it because of inertia. This does seem to happen to people...it happens to me, which becomes increasingly frustrating because I don't need to spend money on certain titles but end up doing it anyway because I've been following the story or there's always that off-chance it'll improve. Hell, I continued to read Planetary despite the decline in quality and Ellis's apparent growing disinterest in it.

Fevermint seems to fall in that category based on things ze says above. Inertia a difficult thing to overcome - what ends up being the final straw that forces you away from a particular book or to leave the super-heroes behind altogether? Is it partly because people have a vested interest in Ennis's works and so they keep hoping he'll improve on The Boys?

20:53 / 03.06.07

No, you're right, I suppose; I bought the last three or four progressively more dreadful, leading to the fall-in-a-hole-and-die nadir, issues of Planetary and the last issue of the Ultimates, which was - well I know Millar's been unwell, but it was cackhanded pish. But that's more about investment in a series; The Boys has been relatively short of life and new series do suffer their worst attrition rates at the opening - I'll tend to give something up to three issues to show me the legs it has, unless I really can't be arsed, and then make the cut decision. Which was precisely what I did with this comic, two for Testament, and will very likely do with Army@Love by not buying the next'n.

(Although these latter examples are not superheroes, but probably fairly close in the market continuuminium.)

I don't really find it hard to sustain an interest in superhero comics - Sturgeon's law still seems a reasonably handy maxim, if you invert it, meaning 10% of anything will be good. Writers come up through the system - Matt Fraction has, and I've had no reason to complain about any of his wfh thus far, and look forward to the [not] Champions, Adam Warren's consistently a fascinating Japanese influence-fusion oddity, and I see Jason Aaron's following up on his leatherhide tough (I like tough-guy comics about now) Scalped Vertigo series by doing Ripclaw and, to bring us full-circle, Wolverine although I've no idea if that's ongoing or one-off. Peter Milligan's coming back with The Programme and that's not to mention the usual sterling stuff from Morrison (although he is slipping,) Brubaker (X-Men aside,) Ellis, Miller and Bendis. Of course there's no guarantee that any of these upcoming projects will be great or that they'll sustain the qualities I perceive in them, but I'm fairly confident most will, playing percentages.

21:40 / 03.06.07

'Whatever it is, if it's Soviet era it won't work properly'

On the strength of that preview, I wonder if Pete hasn't been up to his old tricks again. I do quite admire his ability to hand in any old bollocks with no apparent pangs of conscience, and the art's good and I'll probably buy it, but I suspect I might not like myself very much the next morning. As perhaps I shouldn't, though. As perhaps I shouldn't.

21:48 / 03.06.07

Milligan on stuff wot he made up himself - excepting perhaps the Minx, which was perhaps rather unfairly culled and therefore somewhat stillborn on the back of dreadful sales, but might otherwise have become his Invisibles or Preacher if only Karen Berger or whoever it was had let him carry on - is almost without exception really good. Is a rule. Also, the art's really good. A lifetime of disappointments might teach otherwise, Grams, but I think this is a moment for unguarded optimism, I really do.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

00:31 / 04.06.07

Might be worth taking this over to The Milligan thread to discuss The Programme.

17:32 / 07.09.07

I am Barbelith's patron saint of lost - or, at least, unremarkable - causes (c.f. Garth Marenghi thread) and I'm still following The Boys, now it's up to issue ten.

The new story arc has introduced the Boysverse versions of The Avengers, with a crossover-persona between Batman and Iron Man in Tek Knight. I know people have mentioned above the stupidity of the whole 'Can't stop fucking random things' storyline, and it really is stupid - the coda, in fact, puts it down to a "Fist-sized tumor" in his brain, though, so, well, there.

I stick by an assertion that Ennis has, however, been getting all of the distinctly stupid over-the-top-shit out of his system in the first few arcs, but #7-#10 have had a distinctly odd take on homophobia which I'd like to know what other people think of.

Still, next issue; Russia!

My Mom Thinks I'm Cool

19:31 / 07.09.07

what the fuck happened with Swingwing? they solve the case, set him up to use him in the future, then the next page he's dead of a stupid accident and it doesn't seem to matter. seemed like a weird transition, I was confused. is he really dead? is he hiding out? was he knocked off by somebody else who figured he'd been compromised?

or was it just a (to me) clumsy way of reinforcing that there was no real resolution to the arc?

20:03 / 07.09.07

I wondered that, but then I noticed Butcher undoing one of the screws on the jetpack while he's giving the whole 'you will be of use to me' spiel. So it's a clumsy setup for Hughie to understand a) he has to punch people and b) not every fight's going to end with an arrest and everyone grinning at the camera.

Like I say, I think it was just a bit clumsily executed.

11:51 / 08.09.07

I still like THE BOYS and am interested in it but the issues seem to be getting talkier and talkier, there's a level of repetition that is really bogging me down, and I'm finding it harder and harder to maintain my enthusiasm for the series. I want more outrageousness, more plot, more character and less long, drawn-out conversations.

Essential Dazzler

14:52 / 08.09.07

Do tell, what's this odd take on homophobia all about?

15:21 / 08.09.07

It's a bit dispiriting to try and explain, but, very basically; cracking the odd gay joke doesn't necessarily make you a bad person, and that sometimes the so-called 'politically correct' are the most homophobic ones of all, or something. I think.

That did seem weirdly rushed as an issue, as if for whatever reason he'd lost interest in what, up to that point, was a storyline that seemed to be leading somewhere interesting. As it was though, it felt a bit 'all dressed up with no place to go'. And Tek Knight's death scene was perhaps the worst few pages he's written in years.

15:33 / 08.09.07

It's a bit dispiriting to try and explain, but, very basically; cracking the odd gay joke doesn't necessarily make you a bad person, and that sometimes the so-called 'politically correct' are the most homophobic ones of all, or something. I think.

Yes, that's pretty much it. I was referring more to the Swingwing stuff, though, in that he was completely split between his gay-friendly hero persona and his homophobic secred identity, though, until the compartmentalisation broke down. It had the chance to be interesting and different, but failed at the last hurdle.

Tek Knight's death scene was perhaps the worst few pages he's written in years.

I can really see how it was thought that this would be funny - in a sort of sitting around the table, pitching ideas, 'wouldn't a man fucking an asteroid be funny?' way - but in reality, the scene is just really bad.

Essential Dazzler

15:45 / 08.09.07

I wonder if Ennis has a Facebook account.

16:48 / 08.09.07

I sort of thought the Swingwing thing was going to go in a much more interesting direction, as well. One thing that no one talks about much in comics, or at least I'm not aware of, is the costume and how that changes your identity in psychological ways. There's an issue with drug overdoses where you build up a resistance based on where you shoot up, and if you switch the location you're more likely to OD. If you shoot up in your bathroom your body begins to associate the bathroom with heroin and you develop a resistance that sometimes is not there if you shoot up in a new environment. I thought that's where Ennis was going with Swingwing: a minor case of split or compartmentalized identity. As long as he's in the suit he's gay-friendly, he's Swingwing. But outside of the suit he's a different person altogether.

George RR Martin did this with the Turtle in the Wildcards series where the guy got so used to utilizing his powers from inside a little airship that he became psychologically dependent on being in the airship to use his powers and they failed him completely when he was outside of it.

Like I said, I thought Ennis was going to do this for Swingwing but it was not to be, I suppose. Far funnier if he's just a dolt, I guess.

Also, does anyone else find Wee Hughie's resemblance to Simon Pegg more than a little distracting?

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

19:36 / 08.09.07

One thing that no one talks about much in comics, or at least I'm not aware of, is the costume and how that changes your identity in psychological ways.

This is actually a fairly prevalent theme in a lot of comics, particularly ones like Batman. Peter Milligan has, just off the top of my head, made a career out of discussing identity issues among super-people and others. It's been a fairly standard trope as far back as Superman being mighty and Clark Kent being mild-mannered. This might be the only case off the top of my head where it's a split between private homophobia and public acceptance (although that's a really decent metaphor there), but it's been an integral aspect of super-hero stories for a long time.

21:43 / 08.09.07

I was referring more to the Swingwing stuff, though, in that he was completely split between his gay-friendly hero persona and his homophobic secred identity, though, until the compartmentalisation broke down

Yeah, in one of the bar scenes, there was the reference to Swingwing seeming to have no personality while in costume.

As I say, I think Ennis just got bored, or possibly found himself heading into the kind of territory he doesn't really 'do' as a writer, all that stuff to do with psychology and so on. Swingwing's apparently pointless demise could almost be seen as some kind of unconscious scream of authorial pain, in this respect.

Unless, that is, Ennis is up to something far cleverer than any of us realise. I mean I hope he is, but a few more issues like this one, in particular with regard to the asteroid sex, and I'll begin to have serious doubts.

Sticking with it for the moment though - when it's good, as in the previous three issues, it's still the most enjoyable comic out there, IMVHO.

03:30 / 09.09.07

You're right about writers looking at the difference between people in and out of costume, I guess I was just thinking Ennis might talk about the dependency on the costume. Alan Moore did it a little bit with Nite Owl only being able to get it up in costume, but I've always wondered why Bruce Wayne ever bothered to get out of costume. He's a much better guy when he's Batman so why bother with Bruce Wayne besides strictly utilitarian reasons. He must just itch all the time when he's not in his Batman gear - dying to sort things out with a few well-placed Batarangs instead of wait in line like the rest of us.

10:16 / 09.09.07

Also, does anyone else find Wee Hughie's resemblance to Simon Pegg more than a little distracting?

Not since I read Pegg's introduction to the first trade, but yes, initially, it was a bit odd.

19:42 / 31.10.07

The new story arc has begun, and before it's even out of the gate we have a Russian who used to be a superhero called Love Sausage. The rest of the issue is so-so-setup, but still, not only are there comedy names, there's also the 'comedy' usage of the phrase 'coon's age', which seems heroically pointless.

I think I want this series to be Hitman when it's turning out to be Preacher...

My Mom Thinks I'm Cool

12:46 / 01.11.07

Really? I enjoyed both Hitman and Preacher more than this.

I think I kind of have a built-in dislike of stories about how superheroes are all scumbags who need to have government-sponsored assassins watching over them for everyone's good. I had a similar problem trying to enjoy the new Stormwatch or whatever it was.

Still, this feels kind of rushed and clumsily executed. In theory the idea that having super powers would lead you to all kinds of excess makes sense and could be interesting to explore. The characters, or anyway the "good guys", have complexities and distinctions. I think Hughie's fairly realistically portrayed, and Ennis has done a good job making Butcher seem like a twisted, manipulative douchebag despite all his attempts to appear friendly. The obsession with weird sex is kind of pointless but there's not really any more of it here than in Preacher.

I ought to be loving this series, but somehow it's a little ugly and boring. Little inconsistencies maybe? Like when the super dude says "the man does not fuck up", as though Butcher is some kind of mastermind, but he seems to get by on luck and brute force as much as anything, and isn't nearly as good at manipulating Hughie as he thinks he is.

Like the story isn't quite making us see/feel what he thinks we should be seeing/feeling, or something. Things don't fit together, quite.

21:24 / 17.03.08

Is anyone still reading this (The Boys, that is)?

It's been a bit uneven so far; when it's good (as in #6, #7 and the last one, #16) it's great, but when it's bad, it can seem like what Garth wrote on his holidays, when he was trying not think about Frank Castle's world.

Which would be fair enough, but at times, as with the Russian storyline, you can't help feeling it might have been better if he'd just gone to the pub instead.

Or alternatively, had not started writing when he'd apparently just got back from said hostelry.

The art fill-ins in the last few issues were not so good either - that sort of thing looks terrible in a trade, so what if the comic's a couple of weeks late, etc.

But I'll persist, anyway. What are anyone else's plans?

17:39 / 18.04.08

I realised I hadn't read this for a while, so I picked up #17 today, to be rewarded with a Zombie Irish Racist who just wants his butt-hamster back and jokes about menstrual blood, along with some distinct wierdness w/MM.

Hmm.

12:18 / 22.12.09

So... Twenty or so months on, and - being one of what Haus has referred to in the past as 'Starry-eyed Optimists' - I'm still occasionally reading this.

More accurately, I was still vaguely engaged - the X-Men analogues, although clumsy, were somewhat interesting and almost well-handled - right up until today, when I bought the trade paperback of Herogasm, and I think it's the first trade paperback I've ever thought about returning, claiming that the person I bought it for as a gift already had it, but that I'd since had them seek psychiatric help.

(As an aside, my local WH Smiths has a curious fascination with The Boys, stocking several copies of each trade - I'm not quite sure how that works. Still.)

It's... Appalling. In so many ways. Let's list some of them, for posterity's sake;

- Superheroes injecting drugs mixed with another superhero's vaginal mucus

- The Batman analogue inserting his thumb into Wee Hughie in his Millar place for no apparent reason (One suspects this will be picked up on at a later date, but who will be reading is a different question)

- The Superman analogue finally having the revelation that he can do whatever the fuck he wants and using this revelation to shoot down a passenger jet but, crucially, not revealing his epiphany to the assembled superhero award ceremony because his human handler is watching - again, his fear of this guy is probably something to be picked up on at a later date

- An apparently retarded American Vice-President requiring a secret service man to put a condom on him for him

- and The same Secret Service man dying in an abruptly pointless fashion as analogues for Blackwater et al scheme against the current president to put the aforementioned VP into power.

These are just five points against it out of a longer list, but... It's white and snowy outside and I can't sustain the tirade of vitriol anymore. Ennis' Punisher Max was so amazing and engaging (although your mileage may vary on the denouément), but it produced the Barracuda spinoff, which was... Everything Punisher Max wasn't. I'd often wondered if Ennis was just using The Boys to get all the weird, fetishistic shit out of his system so he could write properly elsewhere, but now...

... I think I give up.

18:41 / 23.12.09

You make a number of valid, telling points. But it's still my fave comic - when it's good (i.e. when Garth isn't cracking gags about the French, the fate worse than death; his default options, really) there's an interesting, and nicely-done, critique of Republican America hiding somewhere underneath all the blood, semen and ordure.

There's no point pretending that aspects of 'The Boys' aren't Viz-level crass, (Viz when it stopped being funny, that is) but I think it's worth sticking with. As it closes in on what's bound to be a hellish ending, hopefully at least some of teh humour will sort of fall by the wayside.

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