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'The Boys'

 
  

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Alex's Grandma
10:29 / 01.06.07
Elsewhere, Flyboy has suggested that Garth Ennis' 'sexual, intellectual, artistic and emotional' problems are such that DC no longer feels comfortable with certain aspects of his work. Which seems like a fair comment, given Wildstorm's recent decision to remove 'The Boys' from its list.

'The Boys', then, concerns a group of covert government operatives whose job it is to dig up dirt on the superheroes of their world, and then occasionally blackmail them, or worse, in order to remind them of who exactly's in charge. Seeing as the heroes in question generally have the sort of hobbies and interests that one might expect characters in a Garth Ennis comic to have, (in a touching scene in the first story arc, one of them is required to perform various unchristian acts - I'll spare you the details - as part of her initiation to a fairly thinly-veiled version of the Justice League) it's a job that keeps the Boys quite busy.

Ennis has said that if he gets this series right, it will 'out-Preacher The Preacher', and so far he seems to be on-track.

So is anyone else reading this? I have to say I'm quite enjoying it. Granted, it's wilfully offensive - there's a sense of Ennis as this beast unchained, finally able to say all the things he's been talked out of, or just prevented from saying in the past, particularly since the move to Dynamite!, who are clearly so delighted to have him on their books that they're prepared to let him get away with anything, but it does have energy. And it's well-drawn, tightly-written, and so on. So really, what's not to like? Apart from possibly everything, that is.

Best of all, (or worst, I suppose) he's apparently planning sixty issues of this stuff. For those interested, the trade for #1-6 is widely available, and #7 is just out.
 
 
Quantum
11:21 / 01.06.07
Was just recommended this for the reasons you say, but I don't know if I can stand the Ennis obsession with arse. Isn't it just the bastard child of Marshall Law and the Authority?
Link to wiki article
 
 
Alex's Grandma
12:13 / 01.06.07
It is a bit, yeah. And the obsession with arse is ... well Garth hasn't especially backed down on that front, it's true. Quite why one of the characters has trained his dog to behave in that fashion I don't know, but it seems likely to recur as a plot device.

On the other hand, it might be interesting to see where they go with this - in some ways, they don't have very much to work with, if they want to avoid a re-tread of previous efforts with similar material, but so far they seem to be managing it. And it is quite funny, more so than 'Marshall Law' ever was, IMVHO - if anyone else had been drawing that, I wonder if it would have ever seen the light of day.

If Garth Ennis is the Mark E Smith of comics, as I like to think he is (not always great, but reliably entertaining, and occasionally inspired, even if the opinions on offer aren't always that palatable) then could this be his 'Hex Enduction Hour'?
 
 
Spaniel
12:23 / 01.06.07
But isn’t it all rather hackneyed and tedious? Haven’t we had enough of Ennis's grosteques? The guy is a really talented writer, in that he has the nuts and bolts of writing a good gripping, well paced, well-scripted yarn down in a way that most comic writers couldn’t pull off on their best ever day, but I’m so bored of his juvenile attempts to out-rank himself, and his tired, one-note piss-taking of superheroics. I don’t want to see Ennis unleashed, I want to see Ennis grow up, just a little bit, because it’s rubbish to see such a talented guy waste his skill on the same old arse.

Agh, I dunno, maybe he’s just a bit thick.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
12:31 / 01.06.07
I don't like THE BOYS nearly as much as I like Ennis' PUNISHER but it's definitely leaps and bounds ahead of how I feel about his BARRACUDA. So far, THE BOYS hasn't done it for me, but I do like how far and hard he's pushing things. I'm wondering what's going to be left when he gets all this poison out of his system and I have a suspicion that somewhere in the next 8 - 10 issues this might actually become much more interesting. So far, though, I find his main characters to be mostly all smirks and attitudes. His fallen, screwed-up, mean, flawed superheroes are actually the most interesting people in the book to me.

Did anyone else read this over on Comic Book Resources? It's such a parochial response to THE BOYS that it actually makes me like the comic that much more. (Scroll down to the heading of "No, just...no")
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:03 / 01.06.07
Yes, far be it for anyone to take umbrage with good old Garth's harmless banter! Grady, you are a child molester. Don't get mad - it's all in fun! I'm just pushing the envelope!
 
 
Quantum
13:36 / 01.06.07
In the comic shop at lunch, I opened the ish at random, curious, and saw the random panel of a fying dude looking at another flying dude in spandex with the speech balloon "Man, MindDroid's got a fantastic ass".

I put it back down, curiosity satisfied.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
15:16 / 01.06.07
I actually am a child molester. How'd you know?

I never said that Ennis wasn't childish at times - and while that's sometimes a good trait in a writer (Kurt Vonnegut used childishness to great effect) THE BOYS errs on the side of juvenile more often than not. But there's a huge difference in mocking a real person in fiction and mocking them in real life. Even labeling a real person as a criminal in fiction is - to my mind - fair game. Calling me a child molester on this board isn't as clever or as thought provoking as you think it is because it's not addressing the issue at hand which is whether or not that kind of thing is fair game in fiction.

Doing this in fiction may not be to your taste, but while you (or the writer at Comic Book Resources) may find it an example of going "Too far!", "too far" like "Too soon!" is a matter of personal taste and there's really no point in arguing over whose opinion is better. It's merely an opinion and one can't be better than the other.

Now, whether you think it should be illegal, censored or otherwise is a different matter, but I'm assuming you aren't that much of a silly goose.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:35 / 01.06.07
It's merely an opinion and one can't be better than the other.

Yes it can.

But no, I don't think Ennis should be legislated against - just encouraged to produce better work than this, and encouraged by means such as not publishing work that is no better than this. Who on earth is he even satirising at this point? The idea of superheroes as corrupt, vain celebrities is so familiar that it was a theme in DC's 52 and Marvel's Civil War.

My libel-tastic comment was not meant to be clever or provocative: on the contrary, rather to show how easy and lazy it is to just toss off the 'edgiest' insults one can think of.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
15:53 / 01.06.07
I get where you're coming from but I guess I differ on two points:

1) Throwing in an edgy comment on this board has nothing to do with an edgy comment in fiction. I just think they're apples and oranges, you know?

2) I hear what you're saying about Ennis but I do think he's producing far more challenging work, it's just in another book (PUNISHER, by my lights). I get the feeling that he wants THE BOYS to be a great, big, over-the-top mess of a comic where too much is never enough. Whether he's able to make that more interesting than he has so far is certainly up for debate. I don't think he's gotten there yet, but I think that now he's away from DC he might push himself harder to go somewhere better. There's no hand to bite, anymore, so maybe he'll ask himself, "Now what?"

Also, I actually think his portrayals of the superheroes are quite good. They're the most sympathetic people in the book because they're far more flawed and believable than his smug killers who are the ostensible lead characters. Also, I found his nasty comments about actual figures in comic books a step in the right direction. If he's developing a sort of dark sided SHE HULK world and plans on going after the creators of comic books as well as their creations and if he includes himself in their ranks, this could get really fun.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:53 / 01.06.07
Not as easy and lazy as Superwoman! She makes the guy do all the work, even when she's on top.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:55 / 01.06.07
Curses. See how interposts ruin humour?
 
 
Feverfew
16:13 / 01.06.07
I followed this for the first six issues mainly for Wee Hughie's plot, and the fact he looks like Simon Pegg. Which aren't sparkling reasons, I know.

What I want to believe is that Ennis is getting a whole chunk of the objectionable, questionably-in-your-face stuff intended purely for the shockiest of shock value out of the way in the first six issues like a six-year-old swearing to get the adult's attention, and that it will then settle in a little more into the groove it's looking for.

The concept itself is, to my mind, a good one, it's just tha the execution is exactly as several people have already said in this thread. So I'd like to believe it's going somewhere, but I'm aware that we won't know for some time yet.

Also; 60 issues? Hmm.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
16:15 / 01.06.07
I don't think humor exists on the interwonk.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
18:11 / 01.06.07
Well I imagine he's not planning on spending the next five years writing about Mind-Droid's ass, or related. Or at least not just that anyway; the series thus far's hardly breaking new ground, but he seems to be off to a much better start than he was at this stage in 'Preacher', and presumably he's got all kinds of shocks and thrills up his scuffed leather sleeve.

And at a point when trying to keep up with events at DC and Marvel feels a bit like a mildly soul-destroying office job, it's nice to think of somebody out there who's trying to make the industry fun again.
 
 
CameronStewart
18:15 / 01.06.07
>>>it's nice to think of somebody out there who's trying to make the industry fun again.<<<


Ooooh, there's so much I want to say to this, but I probably shouldn't.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
18:28 / 01.06.07
I think as far as this thread's concerned, you shouldn't feel like you have to hold anything back.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
18:55 / 01.06.07
it's nice to think of somebody out there who's trying to make the industry fun again.

...uh...

From my one encounter with The Boys, I'm not exactly sure where the fun is in uncomfortable and degrading superhero hazing rituals (to put it politely). Fun in comics? Read some Casanova or King City. Fun in comics is a cat who can turn into a periscope, dammit.
 
 
CameronStewart
20:52 / 01.06.07
Yeah, that's pretty much what I was going to say, albeit far more diplomatically than I would have if I hadn't stopped myself.

"Fun," for me, equals imaginative and joyous and inspired (and inspiring) and exciting. There's a few comics out there that easily qualify - Casanova and Scott Pilgrim to name but two. I can't see anything "fun" about The Boys.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:50 / 01.06.07
It is quite playful though, isn't it? In the sense that Garth Ennis seems to be trying to fool about with the idea of super-powered characters as they might really impact on 21st Century America, rather having them simply do terrible thing after terrible thing to each other? Possibly, I'm just sick in the head, but I find Garth's essentially light-hearted, Tom And Jerry-ish take on all this preferable to a lot of what's being published by DC and Marvel at the moment. All that humourless grand-standing about the invasion of civil liberties leaves me a bit cold, to be honest.

I haven't read Casanova
 
 
CameronStewart
23:05 / 01.06.07
>>>Garth Ennis seems to be trying to fool about with the idea of super-powered characters as they might really impact on 21st Century America,<<<

How has this NOT been done to death already, though?

From all the message board threads and reviews that I've read, it's clear that the primary appeal of The Boys, to those who are reading it, is not the statement of yours I've just quoted, but that it's oh-so-extreme and features orgiastic super-heroes with hamsters shoved up their ass and gang-rape. The book was sold with the promise that it would "out-Preacher Preacher," and not in the sense that it would feature richer characters and more engaging and resonant storylines - they sold the book on the idea that it would be even more depraved than the worst moments of Preacher.

If this is the only antidote to "humourless grandstanding about the invasion of civil liberties" then we're all pretty fucked.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
15:05 / 02.06.07
Well, DC picked the "Out-Preachers Preacher" tagline they used to sell THE BOYS and Ennis has spoken in interviews about being uncomfortable with it, so I don't think it's fair to blame him for the marketing department's handiwork.

I don't think THE BOYS has been all that or a bag of chips so far, but I do prefer it to the alternative. Joyless continuity fluffing and the endless, repetitive polishing of corporate logos by teams of writers and artists have rubbed most characters from the Big Two until they're smooth and featureless. While Ennis may be limiting his imagination and invention to the gutter and the toilet bowl at least there is some imagination and invention in THE BOYS.

It's not a comic I particularly like, but reading it was far more entertaining than reading this week's JSA, COUNTDOWN, WOLVERINE or, really, almost anything from the Big Two that came out in the last 7 days which were mostly meaningless wanks to continuity porn. Nothing wrong with demanding more from Ennis, and from this book, but let's keep it in perspective: in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:58 / 02.06.07
There are a lot more, better comics being published even by Marvel (and DC if one counts Vertigo) than JSA, Countdown and Wolverine. If that's what you're limiting yourself too then I imagine maybe The Boys does seem refreshing.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
16:24 / 02.06.07
Yeah, but he did come up with the line himself - I'm not sure if after fifteen years of writing comics professionally, he can legitimately complain about DC's use of it.

From all the message board threads and reviews that I've read, it's clear that the primary appeal of The Boys, to those who are reading it, is not the statement of yours I've just quoted, but that it's oh-so-extreme and features orgiastic super-heroes with hamsters shoved up their ass and gang-rape.

I take your point but I get the impression that people are finding it funny, more than anything else. That said, I only really read this and Millarworld, and occasionally Byrnerobotics (which sadly doesn't seem to have a thread about 'The Boys') so there could be pages of stuff out there along the lines of 'WHOA! That dude totally had a hamster up his butt! Rock!!1!' that I'm unaware of.

That Ennis is largely dealing in caricature rather than character is obviously going to be an issue if he's still doing it in six months time, and I can see why it's a problem for some people now. I'm less worried about the depravity because, while I'm not saying this sort of cartoonish, grand guignol approach is the only solution to whatever ails the comics industry, I'm not sure if it's necessarily a blind alley either. 'The Boys' is something I could picture myself giving to non-comics reading friends, mainly because it's played for laughs (anyone who likes 'South Park' might get a kick out of it, etc) and there's very little else I could say that about around at the moment.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
16:33 / 02.06.07
I do read other stuff. Yow! That would be a terrible reading list if that was it. But I was just talking about the other comics that came out the same week as THE BOYS. For those of us who read pamphlets we're mostly picking up a stack on Wednesday and THE BOYS entertained me more than anything else that came out on this Wednesday.

Lite, cheap, disposable. That's comics!
 
 
CameronStewart
20:58 / 02.06.07
>>>I take your point but I get the impression that people are finding it funny, more than anything else.<<<

Oh, I'm sure. That's my point though - they clearly find it funny but what they're laughing at is crass and juvenile, like schoolboys sniggering at a drawing of boobies.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
00:05 / 03.06.07
Well yeah; I suppose what I'd argue is that the crass, infantile, slashtastic way that people carry on in Garth Ennis's comics is simply a refelection of how government worlwide is behaving at the moment - in that respect, I wonder if it's possible to go far enough? The demented sexual antics that some of Garth's characters get up to are arguably quite vanilla, compared to what's routinely going on in the real world, these days. Off the top of my head, Bill Clinton, John Prescott, and some of the guys at Enron are far more morally culbable than any of the characters in The Boys, and this'd be leaving aside the fact that the Boys are made-up.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
03:40 / 03.06.07
So it's a juvenile, dubiously sex-coded comic book that still fails to live up to real world equivalents. I'd still rather read, say, Fear Agent -- simultaneously a very funny EC Wally Wood "rocket opera" sci-fi satire and an exploration of addictive personalities & alcoholism.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
11:42 / 03.06.07
(My above post written following a visit to the local hostelry - apologies)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:05 / 03.06.07
Nothing wrong with demanding more from Ennis, and from this book, but let's keep it in perspective: in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

so, I think I understand this to mean that almost without exception superhero comics are dreadful - and certainly were I to find myself purchasing Wolverine, JSA or Countdown I would probably want to be put somewhere safe where I could not damage myself - and as such ther merely flawed or mediocre should be celebrated? This is a valid argument, and probably brings us to our second and more important question - why is this genre being supported by people who claim to have critical faculties? Which is a broader question that Garth Ennis' latest vehicle for journeying to the heart of the nob gag, obviously, but perhaps one to bear in mind.
 
 
The Falcon
16:13 / 03.06.07
The thing about Ennis is, I reckon you could call him a sick fuck and he'd just laugh and turn the other cheek. Which would leave him wide open to a deftly-placed swingball sconner on said, of course.

And who'd be laughing then?

I didn't like The Boys and stopped reading it after the third issue, and was about to really just reemphasise what Boboss has to say about him (the MAX Punisher is consistently brilliant, IMO, in a rifle-barrel black, fucking brutal way and largely because the puerility that plagued his earlier work on the character has been almost entirely dispensed with...) but then I read the latest Barracuda tie-in to said, which is and has been chock-full of what one might be inclined to call his worst instincts, and - well - it's so unbelievably, like grand mal, OTT, the lead is so horrible, the comic and he alchemically attain a certain charm.

So. Maybe it's just the fact that the title discussed here is that peculiar sub-sub-genre carved out initially by, I think, Marshall Law (a comic I certainly enjoyed age 14 or so) and latterly versioned by other populist writers like Dan Clowes and, I believe, James Kochalka that wound me up - but there again there were those scenes with Butcher, is it, and the woman who really hated him but was also, like, totally wet for him and the whole prelude to a b.j. that the third issue was, and I just felt a little ill at those junctures. The first's probably harder to justify than the second, given it might be argued that this is, in fact, a more realistic take on superheroes than the likes of Watchmen, which is really a formal exercise in comparison, inasmuch as they'd be inconsiderate, vain and shallow with bloated egoes and fatal and/or degrading consequences for everyone else. Really, in the end, there just seemed very little heart in the book (as opposed to Barracuda? not really) other than all-too-brief bits with the Simon Pegg character and, in that respect, it utterly failed to out-Preacher Preacher.
 
 
Spaniel
16:32 / 03.06.07
I too am quite keen on the Punisher. I don't think I've ever encountered anything like it elsewhere.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
18:21 / 03.06.07
At least with THE BOYS there's the feeling that a writer with a particular sensibility is at the helm and in control and doing what they want to do. Again, I'm not a fan of THE BOYS, but this puts it in a totally different league than 70% of the superhero comics being written these days. It's got a purpose beyond servicing trademarked logos and that has to mean something. Granted, its purpose seems to be little more than snickering sex jokes but my god, I'll gladly take that over COUNTDOWN any day, which just feels like pointless, joyless nerd-porn.

If I had to rank it, I'd put THE BOYS down at the very, very, very bottom of a category that includes INVINCIBLE, GODLAND, IRREDEEMABLE ANT MAN (which I don't like very much but at least it's got a particular viewpoint), DAREDEVIL, ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN, ALL STAR SUPERMAN, ALL STAR BATMAN and the five or six other superhero comics that aren't slaves to continuity and maintain a sensibility distinct from other books from Marvel and DC.

It's mostly a matter of personal opinion, but to me books like JLA, JSA, AMAZONS ATTACK, ACTION, COUNTDOWN, WONDER WOMAN, TEEN TITANS, OUTSIDERS, FLASH, GREEN LANTERN, NIGHTWING, SUPERGIRL, ATOM, SUPERMAN and BIRDS OF PREY are all pretty much the mainstream at DC and to my eye at least there's a definite difference between them and ALL STAR SUPERMAN or THE BOYS.

That's all I'm saying: it's a meaningful distinction.

On a personal level, I'd rather have a failed book like THE BOYS rather than a spin-off of OUTSIDERS or SUPERGIRL or TEEN TITANS.
 
 
Feverfew
18:28 / 03.06.07
I agree with the critisms - I really do - but I seem to have developed this fundamental belief that The Boys is/are going somewhere.

I'll put it this way; I'm willing to lay odds that there'll be an overall point to this by issue thirty or so. Although, looking at Hitman - which wandered off into Tyrannosaurus' fighting and randomness before regaining it's point - I'm not sure what will happen after the halfway mark.

The only problem with this is having to wait another two years to find out what that point is.

So Punisher MAX is worth picking up?
 
 
The Falcon
18:42 / 03.06.07
I don't really disagree with your rankings, Grady, but there seems to be some slippage here from your original position of apparently quite liking* the book to it being below Ant-Man, a book you "don't like very much"; I mean, there's obviously no compulsion on you to purchase or read things you don't think particularly highly of, so why bother with The Boys and any of the comics you rate below it? I know I don't, I'm pretty sure I don't buy the top 30% of superhero comics regardless of their actual, inherent quality, and I'm pretty sure the majority of people reading and writing in this thread won't either.

*I don't agree, but I don't believe entirely in the reductive criticisms issued here either and there's not, so far as I'm aware, any moral reason to reject it. Just have the bottle to justify your position.
 
  

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