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Imagine there's [sic] no muggles, it's easy if you try...

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Glenn Close But No Cigar

22:47 / 27.05.07

So, to all of you who practice magic... try to imagine a world in which everyone practiced magic. Would it be better? Worse? Is this the world we all already live in? Would it make you feel less 'special' if the whole planet had an intimate relationship with, say, Loki, or Zeus, or Shiva, or Ashanath, or Eliojikje, or whoever? What are the possibilities and dangers? What would you (personally) gain or lose? Be honest...

22:55 / 27.05.07

That is the world we live in, isn't it? Blanket assertion made possible by my optimistic universalizing definition of magick, of couse, but really: Isn't it?

Isn't that was wishing, or praying, or ratiocination are? Just forms on a broad level of practicing magick?

Glenn Close But No Cigar

23:03 / 27.05.07

Well, DDT, you tell me...

*

23:10 / 27.05.07

Everyone is practicing magic.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

23:14 / 27.05.07

Would it make you feel less 'special' if the whole planet had an intimate relationship with etc.

Dude, what?

I don't feel special now. Who does this stuff to feel special after the age of thirteen? Plus, I'm not sure of the exact numbers but aren't there rather a lot of polytheists with relationships with their various Deities in the world? (They wouldn't all identify as magicians, mark you.) Am I more special than the bloke in the cornershop with a shrine to Ganesha behind the counter? Is he more or less special than the local Santeros?

(And why the funge would this planet 'o' mages all need intimate r'ships with big-name Persons of restricted embodiment anyhow? Not like you need Them to do magic. Don't let Them tell ya any different.)

It's just another skill-set when you get right down to it. It's sort of like imagining an Earth full of people who were really great at coding, or bicycle repair, or a world where everyone was a fantastically skilled prostitute, or a Planet of the Plumbers. A world where the mighty nation of people who put in faux-oak beams from B&Q do battle against their deadly foes, the people who did their own patio and stone-cladding from Homebase.

I kind of like the idea, if only because all the little tossers walking around calling themselves Lord Absinthe and hanging around cemetaries sacrificing stray cats would all change their names back to Kevin and start hanging round the library reading books on accounting.

*

23:16 / 27.05.07

Planet of the Plumbers rules!

Okay, so sorry for my extraordinarily unhelpful answer, but why exactly are you asking this question?

Glenn Close But No Cigar

23:28 / 27.05.07

TTS and id, I ask without prejudice, in the hope of eliciting interesting answers. Not presuming that 'doing' magic might mean either this, or that, or that, just wondering how the notion of everyone in the whol' wide world doing magic might impact on those people to whom such (actions.... maybe?) are tightly bound up with how they choose / hope to self-identify.

23:45 / 27.05.07

TTS and id, I ask without prejudice, in the hope of eliciting interesting answers. Not presuming that 'doing' magic might mean either this, or that, or that, just wondering how the notion of everyone in the whol' wide world doing magic might impact on those people to whom such (actions.... maybe?) are tightly bound up with how they choose / hope to self-identify.

Ummmmmmmmmm... isn't this about how people identify? So would it perhaps be better located as a discussion on what people identify as magic and how that effects their lives/lifestyle choices... perhaps in a part of the board designated for discussing identity, rather than magic?

Or, alternatively, why don't you explain how you see the whole thing. How do you identify as a 'non-muggle'? What's the difference in your eyes? What do you think the difference would be?

Perhaps talking about 'what if everyone did X style of magic' could be interesting?

Your post is rather vague and unhelpful... saying you're not making any assumptions about what is or is not magic means you're starting the conversation with a kind of non-concept, asking how others identify themselves is, while possibly invasive, perhaps a better route. Asking IF people do identify as magic-users... given that many people in Temple have pointed out that they don't feel 'special' or different to the rest of the population because of their specific skill set/relationships... may be more helpful. And then going on to ask if that would change how people interacted with the world IF they did identify as such and IF they did think this was somehow an important distinction.

In short... I don't think there is a distinction, really. I see no Muggles. And if its the case of everyone using the same techniques... I'd be sad, I like learning about the million different ways people live their lives.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

23:49 / 27.05.07

I think you're going to be looking at a rather skewed sample though, dude. For one thing, just the fact that the people here are open enough to talk about certain elements of their personal practices on a messageboard means that we're all pretty cool with the basic concept of people taking the ideas we throw out and running with them.

For another, people identifying primarily as "magicians," getting invested in the specialness of that identity to the extent where they feel a need to restrict other people's access to empowering information, are essentially lost in the kind of ego-trip trap that I hope most people are looking to avoid. A magician who's in it just to feel 'special' is, pretty much by definition, a shit magician. A small, selfish, insecure mind trying to shore up its sense of importance with hollow ritual or endless, verbose theorising does not lend itself to progress in the long term.

I hope I'm not being overoptimistic if I suggest that in general shit magicians with delusions of specialness will tend to be the sorts of people who do badly in these parts, at least in the long run.

Glenn Close But No Cigar

23:51 / 27.05.07

Haloquin, really not trying to be rude here, dude, but if you read my initial post over with attention to language and tone you might find that all of your above questions are either answered, or become not worth asking.

23:56 / 27.05.07

So it's 'what if everyone admitted they were doing/believed in magick?' Self-identifying is a different kettle, and I would have answered above differently, I'm sure, if I'd understood that to be the question at hand. Sorry 'bout that.

I do think terms like magic/k miracle have an optimistic sensibility to them - not necessarily empowering, but just applying the words to events or matters seems to me to let one recognize the significance or coolness of the thing. This may only work in english, and application of the effect to other self-identifying magick users/believers may be overreaching or a false-conclusion on my end, but it seems to bear out.

The special or importance sensibility seems less to do with magick and more to do with just people being proud, perhaps too proud, of whatever they are/know. It's the same with magick-types as it is with the strains of people who're superspecial in their own heads because they know about the New World Order of secret 57th degree Masonry, or they've studied in depth two whole books on the dangerous effects of sugar on the body. The actual knowledge/practice is pretty tangential to the feelings or presentation of such folks.

If everybody self-identified as magick believers/users, those folks who use to as an excuse to feel superior or superspecial potent, would probably fall back on a specific brand or style, rather than just admit they're not quite as hot as may have been previously advertised.

Glenn Close But No Cigar

23:58 / 27.05.07

TTS, agree with you that 'specialness' is a misplaced emotion in all of this. To refer you to (a small part of) my orginal question:

Would it make you feel less 'special' if the whole planet had an intimate relationship with, say... etc.

I don't think that assumes anyone feels (or should feel) special 'cause they do so. It just leaves the question hanging....

*

00:02 / 28.05.07

Well, I'll free associate here a little bit.

If everyone became conscious of the ways in which they were practicing magic, they would probably be better at it. But there would still be suckage in the world, because magic isn't a quick fix for anything. So the world would look a lot like it does now except that you'd be as likely to hear from people that they needed to do a ritual to cleanse and protect their home as you would that they didn't like the furniture for no specific reason and needed to make yet another trip to ikea. And nobody lived happily ever after, but had their good days and bad days like pretty much everyone else the end.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

00:10 / 28.05.07

Man, I know you probably didn't mean it that way but essentially your opening post is kind of... well, rude. You're getting slightly impatient responses in part because of the tone you used.

So, to all of you who practice magic... try to imagine a world in which everyone practiced magic. Would it be better? Worse? Is this the world we all already live in?

Okay so far, although one could come away from this post with the impression that you're looking at "magic" as a monolithic concept rather than a kludge, a workaround term which could refer to lots and lots of different paths and practices.

Would it make you feel less 'special' if the whole planet had an intimate relationship with, say, Loki, or Zeus, or Shiva, or Ashanath, or Eliojikje, or whoever?

Okay here we have another area for potential misunderstanding. Without clarification this could be seen to imply that all forms of magic are theistic or spirit-based, when in fact this is not true. Not all magicians are theists or spirit-workers, just as not all theists would think of themselves as magicians. (I encounter a lot of pagans and heathens who are very, very clear on that point, and who in fact regard the practice of magic as largely or wholly incompatible with their faith as they see it.)

What are the possibilities and dangers? What would you (personally) gain or lose? Be honest...

Nggg. That "be honest" chafes. It reinforces the impression created by the phrase "Would you feel less special if..." Why is it there? Why would we not be honest? Why would you exhort the reader to tell you the truth unless you reckon that ze have something to lose by doing so--that ze would, in fact, feel less "special" in wizardworld, but might baulk at admitting such.

Imaginary Mongoose Solutions

00:38 / 28.05.07

It would mean that I'd have fewer issues about the performative nature of my identity as a magiciantypeperson. Less "out of the magickal closet" angst.

But mostly I'm divided between a) everyone is a bit of a magician and b) it would me that people like me who are trying to go out there and bring something back here have been doing their jobs well. And that's cool.

Special-ness, however, doesn't factor into it. Magic(k) doesn't make you "special". At best it helps you remember how fucking awesome you can be... just like everyone else.

*

00:42 / 28.05.07

Right. Or "be honest" assumes that we would not tell you the truth in the first place, which is pretty insulting. Or that we need the extra help to look inward and reflect because we don't know how we really feel about the topic, as if not one of us has ever thought "How would the world be if everyone believed the same things I do?" before. Which is irritating.

I've been through stages:
1) If everyone knew about magic, all the world's problems would be solved!
2) If everyone knew about magic, most of them would misuse the power and make bad things happen!
3) Everyone knows about magic, they just don't know they know!
4) If everyone did know they knew about magic, the world would be a little different but not too much.
?) No one knows about magic. I don't know about magic.
?) Everyone has different ways of knowing/not-knowing magic, and that's the only possible way it could be.

I'm currently, as you've noticed, hovering in 3 & 4 with interludes of the ones I've marked with ?s. I've occasionally had relapses of 1 & 2 for many years.

As to whether it would make me feel less "special", that question is utterly meaningless to me for the reasons TTS has already mentioned. There is no reason to feel "special" for doing something that a few people happen to call magic.

Mako is a hungry fish

03:37 / 28.05.07

I think the world would be better, if only because the terms muggle and sheeply would be meaningless, and less likely to be thrown about by people whose only form of artistic expression is to rhyme "pain" with "rain" in a dog earred notepad.

Being me is what makes me feel special, not being someone who can do special things with special tools, so unless the world is full of 'me' than I doubt I'd feel less special; even if it was then not every version of me would be in the right place and the right time for those special momments that are mine, and mine alone.

As far as what I'd gain, it'd probably be a wider knowledge and experience base from which to draw, and instead of a QiGong master smiling at me so that I'm energetically high for fifteen minutes being a rare occurance, it'd happen more often.

09:14 / 28.05.07

This is another one of those threads that make my teeth hurt. There are as many different opinions on magic and diverse practices as there are magicians as a quick perusal of the rest of the forum will show. The basic topic makes about as much sense as saying "what if everybody was green?" or "what if we all had three arms?"

Why don't you actually do some magic and decide for yourself, instead of asking inane questions?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

10:54 / 28.05.07

PS: I'd suggest that in future you might want to avoid using terms like "muggles." They're not very popular round here, implying as they do that the mighty wizard is a breed apart.

11:18 / 28.05.07

Ize a muggle. If you tell me what magic is I could tell you what wizardworld would be like.
I suspect it would be much like a global theocracy, where everyone is forced to adopt one particular belief system. A monolithic magic boot stamping on a human face forever, kids in school moaning about their runes homework and how boring Binah is, heretic Christians being rounded up and burnt etc.
Or who knows, maybe it would be like Diana Wynne Jones, or any of a number of fantasy works that start with your premise and run with it. There's a good one by Heinlein called 'Magic inc.' you might like to check out.

13:15 / 28.05.07

Haloquin, really not trying to be rude here, dude, but if you read my initial post over with attention to language and tone you might find that all of your above questions are either answered, or become not worth asking.

Thanks for trying not to be rude... I get that. Unfortunately, I didn't find those questions either had been answered or were irrelevent, otherwise I wouldn't have asked them.

At no point have you expressed how you think the world would be, or what definition you use for magic, which would give a useful place for me, personally, to discuss things with you. For example, knowing how you define 'magic' may help me understand why you think these questions make sense to ask.

It doesn't take into account that 'doing magic' (by whatever definition) may not actually relate to how the person doing it identifies... which I then asked you about. I'm interested in why you think this is a magical question, rather than an identity one.

I'm interested in why you have wandered in with a vague wondering, and not answered your own questions first, why should I sit and explain how I respond to them without any evidence that you've actually thought about it yourself? I'm assuming you have, and explaining what you've thought about it may give some context to how you reached the question and why you think its important/relevent/interesting.

Hope that clarifies why I asked these questions... and, to be clear, I'm also not trying to be rude.

14:03 / 28.05.07

I'd be sad, I like learning about the million different ways people live their lives.

I agree with what Haloquin said upthread. If everyone in the world did the same thing we'd be losing loads of variety, which is the spice of nice.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

14:08 / 28.05.07

"Muggles". See, this is why a lot of people who'd probably like to don't come to the Temple.

14:14 / 28.05.07

Barbelith, we're hard on you because we care.
But, more importantly, we're hard on you because we want you to care.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

15:00 / 28.05.07

Would people prefer it if the m-word got Avada Kevadra'd, or is it not that big of an eye-Crucio?

15:20 / 28.05.07

Would it make you feel less 'special' if the whole planet had an intimate relationship with, say, Loki, or Zeus, or Shiva, or Ashanath, or Eliojikje, or whoever?

The thought of having to put aside my gleaming robes of specialness is making me cry but that aside…

Just to point out the screamingly obvious, the worship of these entities is not the sole preserve of Western occultists and magicians, and Shiva at least still has a large and active following, in many diverse forms, in India. So, to get your answer, maybe you should look at some modern Indian ethnography? Also, there have been societies where the worship of these entities was woven into the social fabric. For Zeus, you might want to look at Robin Lane Fox’s stuff (Haus, any opinions on his work – I’m thinking of buying his Pagans and Christians) or any of the other multitude of scholars who have attempted to reconstruct the pre-Christian world. However, that’s “woven into the social fabric, with all the attendant complexities that that entails – not a simple equation which you can tick off “better” or “worse”, thus some of the frustration with your question.

Hgh. Second point. IMO, what we think of occultism in the West is meditated to us through the lenses of Western notions of individualism – despite what we might protest sometimes, occultism is not a separate arena from the rest of society. Crowley exemplifies this for me. Other cultures where the relationship between individual and society is different are going to constitute their worship and relationship to Gods differently. Also, magical practice in the last couple of decades has been greatly affected by other social trends that interweave with this individualism, such as the consumer marketplace and post-modernity. So… to me, you are kind of writing as if “magic” and “magical practice” is just a given, rather than a social category, that people could just apply it, and I don’t think it’s like that….

I’m finding it hard to articulate what I mean, perhaps this is what I get for wrestling with impossible hypothesis….

17:24 / 28.05.07

I’m finding it hard to articulate what I mean

I'm not surprised. It's not a terribly clear question and has a whole slew of mistaken assumptions behind it, which makes it a difficult thread to run with.
Beef, if you gave us a better idea of what you were asking, what you believe magic to be, why you were asking and what you think, without using the word muggle even ironically you'd probably get more supportive responses.
Let me try my mind reading powerz, and you tell me if my guess is close- what if the world were different in that magic was a mainstream occupation, and the stigma of weirdness were not present, and it wasn't something special that only special people could do, and there weren't the division between magicians and non-magicians and we were all one big magic gang? Is that a rough approximation of what you're asking? Because if it is, that makes it much easier to tease apart the assumptions and strands that are giving people trouble (specialness, what magic is etc.) and means we can have a go at discussing it.

Unconditional Love

14:57 / 29.05.07

Surely everyone is special in there own special way, and whats especially common is the unique specialness that we all share in being special.

When everyones aware that they are practicing magic it would be easier perhaps for everybody to feel special in there special practice, knowing full well that other people were being special while practicing in there own special way.

Unconditional Love

15:55 / 29.05.07

Another way of putting it would perhaps be when relating to individual society's and social individuals, a horrendous narrative is created when socialism is pitted against individualism or vice a versa, they are in my opinion cooperative and integrated concepts, society being made of individuals and individuals containing there communication and relationships to society. So in that respect magic is not special or separate from anybody and nobody is special or seperate from magic.

The this vs that narrative just creates separation and conflict, its worth asking whom that serves? and why as people we should allow ourselves to reflect that narrative.

12:03 / 08.06.07

Off-Topic: Just when did barbelith become like this?

When it all started people were a bit more patient. Currently it feels like everyone is taking themselves too seriously and if someone has an opinion, idea or way of talking what happens is a mass flame-o-war. If we don't like a topic or think it is stupid, then why bother? The amount of people/posts/topics I personally ignore because it just doesn't interest me is fairly large.

We could nit-pick about the initial posts and bitch about hir use of the word muggle or the deffinition of magick. or we could just leave it and everyone could have used their own versions of what magick is and then written a short post, IF THE TOPIC INTERESTED THEM. There seems to be an attitude of: "I'm have written on forums and practiced magic accoridng to my deffinition for X years therefore I should try and chastise people who accroding to me don't get it".
I realise I am myself being a bit hippocritical by writing this post. But I feel that it needed to be said for some time now.
--------------------------------

12:03 / 08.06.07

Back to Topic:
My deffinition of Magick is to cause a change in the world around me in accordance with my will using various methods that in and of themselves wouldn't cause that change to happen This is because I am a hermetic adept and scholar with strong thelemic, and gnostic tendencies. because of my Involvement with the IOT style chaos movement I am also aware that this is merely a specific paradigm that I have adopted to deal with the world. Which is in itself a paradigm etc.. I personally don't think that picking up a cup of tea is magickal. creating your specific traditions version of a spell to get the teacup in your hand and then it happening: someone picks it up and gives it to you umprompted, gthe cat runs past etc and it lands on your hand etc. is the way it manifests.
I also believe that by using magick and magickal techniques one can achieve liberation from the material and unite oneself to the highest. This is nirvana, the beautific vision, or what have you that religions and traditions in the western meta-paradigm have aimed for for so long.

If everyone practiced magick according to one particular paradigm:
hermetic: that means that everyone would be more balanced and less materialistic. There would be a much stronger sense of everyone place in the world, and humanity would actually be in a state of perfection.

Wiccan: everyone would be in harmony with their animus/anima, and live in harmony with nature and the hidden forces of it.

Kaula tantra: the human race would die out because everyone would achieve liberation, thus the kali-yuga (this particular age) would end, and the world would yet again restart.

12:08 / 08.06.07

Currently it feels like everyone is taking themselves too seriously and if someone has an opinion, idea or way of talking what happens is a mass flame-o-war.

...to you, it feels like that to you. I am going to take your advice and hit 'ignore'.

ONLY NICE THINGS

12:21 / 08.06.07

There are very few times when I am moved to correct spelling. The one time is "hypocritical". This is because it is a very large accusation, and the people making it are often quite stupid, and do not actually understand what it means. One of the signs of not understanding what it means, rather than thinking that it is a magic word that provides the moral high ground, is never having looked it up, or read about it, or talked about what it actually involves. And one sign of _that_ is spelling it as if one were describing a society run by horses.

Why do idiots always have the same four or five verbs, adjectives and nouns? Nitpick, bitch, serious, uptight - was there a day in primary school that I missed when these were taught as the best ways to win an argument without actually having read or understood what is going on? If so, primary school lied.

12:33 / 08.06.07

We could nit-pick about the initial posts and bitch about hir use of the word muggle or the deffinition of magick.

I believe that's what did happen, and it was something that needed to happen. The first post made no real sense to a lot of people who were on the outside of the poster's head, and their responses are what made this thread worth reading because they questioned assumptions and clarified terms.

12:34 / 08.06.07

Sorry... YO!

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