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Underground > Art, Fashion & Design >

The Elgin Marbles

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17:35 / 15.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Sax:
Look, the British are just the criminal underclass of the world

Yeah thats how I discribe the British Museum to people, as full of stuff we've nicked from all over the world. Its very nice but we should probably give at least some of it back.

One precendent that I vaguely remember is when a British museum gave back a talismanic shirt worn by a native american during Wounded Knee (I think) to his tribe.

But admittedly that's not the Elgin Marbles, but the fact that they won't even lend them overseas is just tragic the journey couldn't do them nearly as much damage as we have during our 'stewardship'.

Would giving them back start a stampeed of countries demanding their hertiage back? Dunno, perhaps more countries should.

10:17 / 16.01.02

Planet of Sound: we didn't pay for them. 'We' (the govt) didn't pay the Greeks or even the Ottoman Turks for them.

09:11 / 11.11.02

Greeks offer deal to get marbles back.

yawn - thing's buddy

09:42 / 11.11.02

Glasgow city Council had to give back a ghost shirt believed to have belonged to Sitting Bull a while back.

It didn’t open any floodgates.

In this instance I think it was right to give back – it was a personal item and was also a religious relic to many living native Americans.

But the marbles are a different story. As has been stated, they were removed legally and although the Greeks were under Turkish rule at the time, they would not have complained about the removal of the marbles. If they were self-governing it’s reasonable to suggest they would have flogged them off themselves to the ‘queer’ lord.

There wasn’t much value attributed to ‘ruins’ back then – certainly not in the countries where they could be found.

So. No. they canny huv them.

13:12 / 11.11.02

The Ghost Dance Shirt in Glasgow is pretty cool. The ghost dance people (I can't remember who they are exactly) gave the Glasgow museum a new one in exchange for giving the old one back.

I think the Elgin Marbles should be sent back just out of being nice, and it wouldn't set much of a precedent. We can return them because there is something to return them to. The Parthenon is still there. We can't return most of the rest because there's just sand and rubble left. Unless they rebuild Babylon or something, but as Chrome says, the world would end then anyways, so it would be a moot point whether we give them their sculptures and whatnot back...

Goodness Gracious Meme

15:05 / 11.11.02

My knee-jerk reaction is to say, yes, they should be returned, as they don't belong to Britain (As a (British)Asian, and feeling very much Indian in this context, I'll willingly admit to huge bias over this issue). But there have been some good points made here against that. But, I don't think that the fact that this might then incite other nations to ask for artefacts back is any kind of reason not to consider seriously the idea of handing back the Elgin marbles. Do we not do one good deed because it may lead to others? And that might be tricky? Or do we try and do the best we can?

As I see it, such an opportunity wouldn't be likely to lead to countries (eg ex-colonial nations) wanting back every stick that had been taken and exhibited elsewhere. Instead this could open up space for a negotiation process to take place with these nations *finally* being asked for, and giving freely, permission for most of the various collections to stay, but reclaiming pieces of particular importance - or perhaps the kind of deal-making that the article Kit Kat's linked to describes.

I'm thinking this in particular in cases of items with spiritual/religious significance to their original owners.

Oh, and the Guardian's version of the licence issue is (my emphasis):

Elgin got permission to send artists to Greece to sketch and excavate in and around its many ancient sites, including the Parthenon, one of several sacred buildings on the Acropolis "rock" dominating Athens. Once there, Elgin's men began removing as many of the surviving sculptures as they could. Elgin always claimed he had an official licence to do this, but only an Italian translation survived. It is claimed that Elgin bribed and bullied Turkish officials to get his way

Is this substantively correct, Haus/Kit-Kat? Can/Do we know?

And how about this case, from the same article:

The marbles are not the only items to have come to Britain by dubious means. (no shit, Sherlock) Bronzes were taken from Benin following a raid in 1897. Nigeria, where Benin is now located, wants them back.

What should happen here?

22:13 / 11.11.02

This article - which is of course by no means impartial, but seems to have some reasonable sources (though I haven't read any of them) - suggests that it is substantially correct, though in the absence of any of the evidence it's hard to tell. Don't think Elgin was vastly different to the hordes of C18 Grand Tourists and diplomatic looters, but still...

As for other things, like the Benin bronzes... I was going to make a point about how they could be returned with a proviso that the government of the country of origin doesn't sell them... but how ridiculous, it's their heritage, they should be allowed to do what they want with it. I do think it would be a shame if, after they had been returned, some of these things ended up in rich Westerners' collections, not necessarily available to any public at all let alone that of the country of origin. Look at all the Etruscan antiquities that totally bypass Italians museums because they get dug up by grave-robbers for the international market.

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