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Underground > Art, Fashion & Design >

The Elgin Marbles

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08:47 / 08.01.02

Should they be sent back?

08:53 / 08.01.02

Even my old home town are getting in on this (my home town is Elgin) -

Check here -

Elgin Marbles

and yes I believe they should be sent back

08:59 / 08.01.02

Mmmm. My general feeling is that it would certainly reflect well on the British Museum/govt to send them back - a great deal better than citing lots of redundant arguments about what the Turks were doing to them during the Napoleonic wars.

I can see that it might cause some problems with other 'appropriated' works of art, though. Would it be right to send everything back whence it came (everything which was not completely legitimately acquired - & that covers an awful lot, given the murky nature of a lot of art dealing) - or is it better to allow some works to be kept on the grounds that they are part of a more public heritage (fostering understanding of other cultures, and so on)?

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

08:59 / 08.01.02

Do we still have the receipt?

But seriously, folks. This is a terribly difficult question, particularly because I know that I derive an enormous amount of personal comfort from knowing that I share a city with them and can drop in and say "hi" if I am feeling stressed. My instincts are for the restitution of "pillaged" art treasures to be returned to their natin of origin.

And yet...

And yet the logistics involved in actually doing so are incredibly complex. On a purely practical level, you don't transport 2500-year old bits of Pentelic marble unless you really have to.

And, on another level, I'm partly of the mind that the Acropolis should be transported in its entirety out of Athens, not have bits returned to it. Have you seen the damage the atmosphere has done to the caryatids on the Erechtheum? It's insane...which is bad, because it bespeaks a lack of faith in Greece's ability to provide and maintain a preservative environment. But, you know...that's because I lack it.

08:59 / 08.01.02

Aww. Is it that bad? I was planning my first trip to Greece and the Cyclades this summer, and Athens was gonna be the highlight.

Its a valid point though. Should a standard be set that requires that nation of origin to have certain facilities? Is that just a western colonial excuse?

There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Should artifacts be returned to countries that have a reputation for poor keeping of historical material, or does the country that they 'belong' to have the right to do what the fuck they want with their culture's history?

There's also an argument of access and a wider public seeing the marbles. Something the UK appears better equipped with.

08:59 / 08.01.02

Athens is indeed terribly polluted. But, the caryatids on the Erectheion at the moment are replicas, aren't they? The real ones are in the museum round the back, and I suspect that that (or a similar museum) is where the Elgin marbles would go if they were returned. So they wouldn't suffer any more from the atmosphere - only from incompetent cleaning, which they can get here as well as anywhere else.

As for the idea of fewer people seeing them in Athens than here - I doubt this would be the case. The Acropolis isn't a little-known tourist destination, after all, and whn I went it was absolutely seething with people...

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

08:59 / 08.01.02

The Caryatids on the Erechtheum are indeed replicas - but it was left shamelessly late before they were removed to the Acropolis Museum.

Of course, we are far from innocent. The removal of the marbles in the first place was done very badly and the use of a blunt copper instrument in 1938 caused further unnecessary damage to some of the marbles. It's more a question of whether rectifying that wrong would be a wrong in itself, and whether the benefits of a unified colelction of marbles outweigh the dangers of retransportation.

Also, the fact that most of the British Museum has been half-inched from somehwere...

Fra; Athens is a grotesque shithole, an abomination to city planners everywhere and an eyesore, but it has a very large, if shambolic, museum and the Acropolis is always top. But I'd recommend Delphi as well - lots of lovely ruins without a big fuck off city built around them.

[ 08-01-2002: Message edited by: The Halfway Haus ]

08:59 / 08.01.02

As kit kat points out the marbles have actually been damaged whilst in the care of the British Museum thanks to rather abbrasive 'cleaning' techniques.

Handing the marbles back would open a huge can of worms as far as antiquities and appropriated works of art go, since most meseum collections are mainly if not solely based on stolen objects

The Return Of Rothkoid

10:06 / 08.01.02

I think it's problematic that there's (at least) two problems involved in sending them back/keeping them here - one's political, one's conservation-related. Both of them are undermined, too, by both sides' feeling of "we know better than you how to handle it" - which I spose is something tied into the way the acquisitions were made initially?

When was the cleaning damage initially sustained? I'm wondering whether the change in conservation techniques over the last x years means that this sort of thing wouldn't happen now, or...?

While something like the returning of artworks taken under the Nazi regime would be a good idea, it'd also be incredibly difficult to implement. And would be related to countries making admissions of regret/culpability for their behaviour in past generations - is it possible for such things to happen now? Or would it be seen as obsequiousness by both sides? Or can we change attitudes? Conditional return would obviously not be an option - and I think Haus' concerns about preservation would be shared by those making the decisions. How to effect change in the treatment of these objects, I suppose, is the question...

10:14 / 08.01.02

I suppose the Elgin Marbles are rather different from some of the items in the BM because Elgin was actually given permission of a sort to take them away from the Acropolis (though it is a moot point whether the permission was intended to extend to carvings that were in situ at the time - probably not).

But yes, this was my point earlier - there are tons of African/Indian/Greek/Roman etc artefacts in the BM and other institutions around the world - is it better that it should be this way, in order that people can see the products of cultures from the entire world? (The obvious problem with this being that museums in the developing world aren't likely to have or to be able to afford European antiquities, Old Masters, and so on)

But... in the specific case of the Elgin marbles, it seems graceless to insist that the British nation has proprietorial rights over them because they were removed here 200 years ago. Apart from the case of the late removal of the caryatids (don't seem to be able to spell Erechtheion/theum - which is right?), is there any evidence to suggest that the Greek museums would be unable to preserve them?

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

10:19 / 08.01.02

Cleaning damage in 1938 or 1939, IIRC.

As for how they were removed...well, that's a bit awkward, as they were removed legally, after a fashion. IIRC, Elgin had the permission of the Ottoman Empire to remove interesting inscriptions for the British Museum, and decided that the marbles constituted a very big interesting inscription. The haste and cack-handedness with which they were removed does rather evidence a certain lack of comfort about the whole process.

So, legal permission, but by a regime that no longer exists and certainly doesn't run Greece anymore. Leaving two possible reponses.

1) Send the Elgin Marbles to Turkey. That'll really piss the Greeks off.

2) Conclude that, as the only way to appreciate the sculptures is on a temple the Venetians blew to fuck some time ago, the two collections should be united and placed on a perfect replica of the Parthenon in a less polluted and fucked-up locale. I believe that Nashville has one...

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

10:24 / 08.01.02

Oh, and both Erechtheum and Erechtheion are right - one is Latin and the other Greek.

10:33 / 08.01.02

I see your point - I suppose it would be rather like trying to send the friezes from Nimrud back to Mesopotamia.

I don't think the permission was granted for Elgin to remove objects *for* the British Museum - IIRC he ran up terrible debts keeping the marbles housed while he tried to persuade the museum to cough up for them...

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

10:40 / 08.01.02

...which they did, IIRC, in 1816.

Problem being that one of the conditions of the Duveen bequest is that copies of the rest of the frieze and marbles are not interpolated, so a complete representation is not possible. Personally I would support a joint Greco-British installation to reconstruct the Parthenon in its entirety, with the complete surviving marbleson display around the building, that being based in Greece with an online viewing centre in the British Museum. But that's not going to happen.

I would like to see the Parthenon sculptures united. But they are all over the fucki g shop, IIRC - uniting the Greek and British collections would be a big step forwards, but not the end fo the task.

[ 08-01-2002: Message edited by: The Halfway Haus ]

The Return Of Rothkoid

10:41 / 08.01.02

quote:Originally posted by The Halfway Haus:
I believe that Nashville has one...Come on; you know that they'd only get the preservation they require in the paragon of age-defiance that is Dollywood...

They're not really going to go anywhere though, are they? Didn't Blair say (mid-last year?) that they'd have to be prised from his cold, dead fingers before they'd be taken away from the UK?

11:10 / 08.01.02

quote:Originally posted by The Halfway Haus:
....the two collections should be united and placed on a perfect replica of the Parthenon in a less polluted and fucked-up locale. I believe that Nashville has one...

COME SEE Dolly Parton's ancient marbles; the 8th (and 9th) wonder of the world!

WITNESS Kenny Rogers sing "Did I ever tell you, you're my Hero?" to Myron's Hercules.

MARVEL at a 60ft statue of Bill Gilman (the colossus of Rhodes(Island))

Y'all have a Country and (ancient) western time, y'hear!

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

11:19 / 08.01.02

Whether it is in fact Blair's and Blair's only to give is a matter of discussion. Norman Palmer talks around some of the possibles here.

11:43 / 08.01.02

So basically... given that the British Museum's position is as follows:

The Museum's collections are vested in the Trustees in accordance with the legislation enacted by Parliament, which since 1753 has prohibited them from permanently disposing of any objects (other than duplicates), and has required them to ensure that the collections are preserved for the benefit of international scholarship and the enjoyment of the general public.

The Trustees of the British Museum would regard it as a betrayal of their trust to establish a precedent for the piecemeal dismemberment of collections which recognise no arbitrary boundaries of time or place.

(Statement of policy here)

... and the only way around this would be for a government minister (presumably with the PM's authority if not that of Parliament) to grant the BM dispensation to ignore their statutes in the matter of the Elgin Marbles - something which they patently do not want to do - well, given all this the question of a return to Greece is a very hypothetical one. Still interesting to consider, though.

Thanks for the materials, Haus.

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

11:57 / 08.01.02

There's "return the Elgin Marbles" site somewhere - will see if I can find it - it's where I bookmarked that article from a while ago.

Also IIRC, there was a motion to return the marbles tabled for parliament in November, but whether it made it through war stuff I have no idea. I imagine pressure will mount, certainly from Greece and possibly from the International community, in the run-up to the Olympics.

Since the Elgin Marbles are by some distance the most impressive thing in the BM (with the possible exception of the less photogenic Rosetta Stone), there is a certain lack of will within the Museum to return them. Also because corporate hospitality in the marbles' room is a lucrative source of much-needed income...

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

12:02 / 08.01.02

quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Rain:
There's "return the Elgin Marbles" site somewhere - will see if I can find it - it's where I bookmarked that article from a while ago.

Also IIRC, there was a motion to return the marbles tabled for parliament in November, but whether it made it through war stuff I have no idea. I imagine pressure will mount, certainly from Greece and possibly from the International community, in the run-up to the Olympics. The "piecemeal" may just be a way out for the Museum - if they can spin that the Parthenon sculptures (to give them their political-correctness-gone-mad name) are in themselves a single collection and a fragment of a larger, Attic collection...but the will is simply not there, at least not at present.

Since the Elgin Marbles are by some distance the most impressive thing in the BM (with the possible exception of the less photogenic Rosetta Stone), there is a certain lack of will within the Museum to return them. Also because corporate hospitality in the marbles' room is a lucrative source of much-needed income...

17:51 / 08.01.02

vague, Vaugue, VAGUE, recollection, but doesn't the V&A have a large plaster column, of which they had the original, but sent back to wherever?

It's straight on and to the right when you go in. I'm sure that helps.

The Return Of Rothkoid

09:34 / 09.01.02

You're thinking of the cast courts. It's Trajan's column that you refer to. I don't think the V&A had the original column, though - I'm pretty sure it was a cast made in situ, like many of the things found in the room. Plaster casting stuff was (is?) pretty common; I know a lot of dinosaur skeletons found in museums are casts, not originals. Actually, this page says the original's in Rome, so no, they ain't got it. I would've thought that the V&A wouldn't be giving up anything once they acquired it, personally.

(Oh, for no other reason than I like its sort of "break glass in case of prudery" feel, check out the emergency fig leaf...)

12:00 / 09.01.02

Here I go with probably the least considered or well- researched post to appear on this thread: I think they should give them back, I was in athens last September and can remember just feeling quite sad and angry that we were clingin on to them so desperately. i'm sure it's just sour grapes over the fact that at the time British culture still consisted of finding innovative ways to smear one's thighs with bracken and avoiding geting gored by wild boars.

The Planet of Sound

14:50 / 09.01.02

I agree with Haus. I think. If we send them back (which is not very likely) we're opening the floodgates to returning the entire contents of the British Museum. And the V & A. And the Sir John Soanes museum. The horror... We paid good money for 'em, and their ours now, darnit. And they look awful purdy in Bloomsbury.

The Planet of Sound

14:54 / 09.01.02

And can I recommend the Gardening Museum over the bridge from Tate Britain? Maybe not immediately appealing, but started by the Tradescants (of 'Ark' fame in the Ashmolean in Oxford). Fascinating collectors, introduced the idea of the managed garden to England (without which we'd be living in swamps or scrubland) and owners of:

THE VEGETABLE LAMB!!!

CROMWELL'S DEATH MASK!!!

THE LANTERN OF GUY FAWKES!!!

A GIANT'S SHOE!!!

Material there, I think, for the next Indiana Jones movie.

21:11 / 14.01.02

Latest news: Britain refuses to even loan Greece the Elgin marbles

10:59 / 15.01.02

Look, the British are just the criminal underclass of the world, liberating all the nice objets d'art from the posh civilisations that have been there for donkey's years because we don't have any ourselves. What's wrong with that? Redistribute the art. It should be for all of us, not just some poncey blokes in beards and togas who sit around on hillsides spouting poetry and plucking thorns from lions' paws. God, you're all just so hung up on possessions and who owns what, aren't you? Next thing you'll be wanting the twat who nicked my car stereo to be prosecuted, or something.

11:01 / 15.01.02

Yes but i'd take better care of your car stereo than you ever could.

11:47 / 15.01.02

Have the Elgin marbles ever been in Elgin? hmmm I should really know that, maybe they should be sent there, my old room is free they could put them in there and my folks could make some money at the door?

12:08 / 15.01.02

This all started with you hairy-arsed jocks demanding the Stone of Scone back. God knows where it will end. Cleopatra's Needle back off to Egypt. The Welsh wanting Stone Henge. French people calling for Maxim's nightclub in Wigan to give them the name back.

It's political correctness gone mad.

12:12 / 15.01.02

quote:This all started with you hairy-arsed jocks

You know some people maybe offended by that remark, unless of course your Scottish, was it decided who could make fun of who yet?

I'd just be happy if they gave us Sir. Alec back

quote:It's political correctness gone mad.

The Planet of Sound

12:15 / 15.01.02

Well, maybe the Greeks should fight them for us, Sax? We paid for them; why don't they invade us if they want to steal them back? Laws of the streets, maaaaaan...

The Planet of Sound

12:17 / 15.01.02

Or us for them, even.

12:23 / 15.01.02

Bear - some of my best friends are hairy-arsed Jocks. It's just a term of endearment. I'd like to point that out before this descends into five pages of argument about national stereotyping.

And if you don't like it, you can always wax your crease

12:27 / 15.01.02

Seems the marbles never were in Elgin I can't even work out if Lord Elgin was in fkn Elgin but I imagine he was - here the story of it all, I don't think its already been posted -

Lord Elgin

Sorry if I'm killing this thread I guess I just got homesick seeing Elgin mentioned so much

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