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So, everybody's got some good in them...

 
  

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wicker woman
07:01 / 18.05.07
The night before last on the BBC World Service (carried from 10pm-5am on a local NPR station), one of their reporters interviewed a woman who had escaped from a group of Darfur rebels who had strayed over the border into her country, kidnapping her and 50 of her fellow villagers. 25 of them were her family. I don't have a direct link to this interview, though I will continue to look for it. If anyone knows the story I'm referring to, feel free to link it.

This woman told her story, and I cannot get it out of my head. It's not like an epiphany where all of a sudden I realize "Hey, there's bad people in the world!" But this... I can't stop thinking about it. And this is happening on a regular basis over there. I can't hope to capture this story in exactly the way it was translated, but...

The rebels came upon this village as its residents were heading into the woods to sleep for the night; they didn't dare to sleep in their houses for fear of these same groups. The rebels took 50 of the villagers off to their encampment, and forced them to sit on the ground.

One of the rebels told the villagers that whoever was related to the chief to 'stand up'. When they did, the rebels immediately killed all of them, shoving their bayonets inbetween the villagers' ribs.

The rebels approach the woman, who is carrying her 4-month old baby in a carrier on her back. Slipping a rope around its neck, they force her to hang her own baby.

Later, they tell the woman's brother to rape her. His last words to her were "I cannot rape you, because I will die if I do. And if I do not, they will kill me. But I cannot rape you." And so, they did, beheading her brother in front of her.

Gathering the remaining villagers, they were told that they were going to grow cabbages for the rebels. While they were out digging the holes (with their hands), another small rebel group joined up with the first. The new group asked "Why are you keeping these people around? Why have you not killed them?" to which they answered "They are digging their graves now."

Much later, as the woman was lagging behind a couple of rebels she had been forced to follow, she was approached by one of the younger, "sympathetic" rebels, who told her "Even if I let you go, you are not in the shape to survive. But I will anyway. Go in that direction, and you will come to a river. Follow that."

She did, eventually collapsing in front of a young boy from another village, who got some of his own village elders to help her.


So I hear all this, and I just can't comprehend it. Can't wrap my head around it, that people like that exist in the world. Normally, I can get behind the idea that there's some good in everyone. This is not a world of Dudley Do-Right vs. Snidley Whiplash (a philosophy that American foreign policy seems to follow...), but the guys that did this? They're monsters. I can't help but see them that way.

So, anyway, the over-arching question is: Are there people that are just complete shit? Redeemable qualities or reasonable excuses for behavior = zero?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:38 / 18.05.07
Ask me later. I've just started reading The Lucifer Effect: How Good People Turn Evil by Philip Zimbardo. Zimbardo was the guy behind the infamous Stamford Prison Experiment and was called as a defense witness for one of the Abu Ghraib guards, the book apparently will concentrate on these two examples as well as the ethnic cleansing in Rwanda, with examples quoted in the introduction not much different to what you described.

I'll come back to this thread when I've read the book, but in the meantime what would you say are 'redeemable qualities' or 'reasonable excuses for behavior'? The problem is that every act has a 'reason' or an 'excuse'. It may not be a very good one to someone else, in this case you, but these rebels had reasons in their heads that were perfectly valid for their actions. There's also the 'madness of crowds' aspect, to mundane it down to an almost ridiculous level, I can remember a number of people I knew at school who I got on well with on their own who I was beastly to when with my peer group and a number of other people who were the same with me if they were alone or with their friends, so there is also a self-reinforcing group dynamic at play here.
 
 
Janean Patience
09:48 / 18.05.07
I can't find the quote, but it's been said that any human being given absolute power over others will eventually turn to torture. The evidence bears this out. Ideology, even ethnic hatred, doesn't have much to do with it. Everybody's got some evil in them.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:55 / 18.05.07
Well, we could talk about "good" or "evil". And this would immediately obscure things like economics, colonialism, starvation, and poverty, all of which are massive contributions to this horrific incident. I'm not being deliberately hard-nosed - I genuinely don't think "good and evil" is even approaching a useful way of thinking about this.
 
 
This Sunday
15:13 / 18.05.07
I do think it comes down to personal decision. The brother who chose to die, in the initial example, for instance, is suffering under quite a bit of oppression, under financial, social, and threat to life and limb concerns, and he doesn't let it turn him into a 'bad person.'

I do have problems with the 'bad person' thing, though. Everyone's got levels of bad or good in them, and I honestly don't think anyone is totally irretrievable, although I might relent and allow for 'totally irretrievable this side of death,' which may seem like a cop-out, but it's an honest feeling.

We all do things we feel at the time are bad (but not bad enough not to) or we feel fine with at the time and then later regret. Some things are done that the doer never feels were wrong or unnecessary, while the bulk of outside judgement sees it as a clear case of wrong/bad/evil. But all of those people had at least one good act, one qualiatative moment of decency in them, or at least the potential for such.

I just think it's a myth that the ounce of good somehow requires everything else to be forgiven or made-better. The scale doesn't shift because they have some good in them; evil vile acts are still precisely that. It's not more okeh to order in the death of a few thousand people, say, if you're kind to kittens and always tip service people. It's not more okeh to steal twenty dollars out of your friend's wallet because they made you sit through a dinner party you absolutely hated but were polite and civil all the way through.

I knew a Sudanese kid, a few years back, who survived hellish and unnecessary conditions all his life, and then got sent off to the States where he attended high school and worked at a hotel. And there was lots of talk about how much safer he'd be here and happier and how people are just less evil. He was stabbed in the small of the back in the hotel basement a few months later, by a white supremacist type. And didn't say anything to anyone for over a week, because he didn't want to cause any problems. Around the same time, two other Sudanese refugees, both also kids, were beaten and one of them raped because they were holding hands and being generally huggy at an outdoor concert.

There appears to be more freedom to act, a kind of sadism allowance, with Sudan right now, but it doesn't lessen or disqualify the cruelties elsewhere or imply there's more potential there. Painful as it is to consider, I suspect the potential may even be higher in some places it's being kept in check by the simple things like fear of the police, as opposed to more inner-goodness or anything.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
11:16 / 19.05.07
By modern western standards, such people can be considered to have an antisocial personality disorder - the problem is that modern western standards don't really mean much in Darfur, and the particular social standards of their rebels say that such things are ok. Granted, they still show signs of impulsive behaviour and indifference to the rights of others, however given that many have been involved with rebel groups from an age where they were kidnapped and recruited to the cause, and that such acts have been presented to them as normal (most likely with the justification being a denial of the humanity/importance of their victims) its perhaps understandable that they can be so callous, as by their standards these acts arn't anti-social.

Considering the circumtances these rebels are in, a lack of emotional development and a pushing of boundaries is to be expected - basically their empathic emotions are mostly shut off, as is their tendancy to feel regret, and so they become jaded and even bored with what they do, so they do it to a greater extent. Rage and fear are powerful and easy emotions to tap into, and the terror of others and the power to instil it is like a drug - quite possibly they're addicted to their actions, and like any junkie their tolerance levels become higher and higher with time, so their actions deviate further and further from the norm.

I don't think that any of this is an excuse for what they do (in fact I think that like any rabid animal they should be hunted down and executed without due process) but I do think it's a reason, as well as a warning.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
16:10 / 19.05.07
Care to rethink that statement you made in the last paragraph, mako? "Hunted down and executed without due process. Cuz they're rabid animals."

%I guess that'll make it okay for me kill any US soldier I happen to come across, because as far as I can tell, what they're doing in Iraq, Gitmo, Afghanistan etc etc ad fucking nauseam looks pretty rabid and evil, to me. Oh, I forgot, they're mostly white Xtians talking English, so obviously they're the good guys. They're with us.%

You're just so fucking wrong there mako.
 
 
SMS
00:02 / 20.05.07
Evil, in the end, really cannot be explained, at least without resorting to some sort of denial of its existence. Evil isn’t just a kind of misdirected attempt to get something good (as, for instance, I might use insider information to make money in the stock market — making money being a good thing, but the means of doing so being bad). Evil distinguishes itself by its sheer senselessness, war crimes that seem even contrary to the purposes of war — what Luc Ferry once called being a "thoroughly rotten bastard."

To speak of irredemability as an essential characteristic of such thoroughly rotten bastards is, I think, to claim much more than we are capable of knowing. That some people behave as if they were irredemable is something I am prepared to admit. But the only truly irredemable is the refusal of the constantly offered gift to turn.

The utility of economics and colonial theory are not to be denied, nor ought we to ignore the effects of real poverty, which so often includes starvation. The latter shape human life in very troubling ways. Psychological studies, too, are useful — when one is instructed to treat another human being as a physical extension of himself (and thereby deny the other person’s soul, even though it presents its existence constantly), that person will do quite monstrous things. But these theories tend to explain the behavior more than the evil, which is why AR’s concern makes sense to me, even though …

I think that retaining the notion of evil is still very important. The inexplicable characteristic of such behavior will never escape us, because it has more than a material dimension to it. When we exclude this dimension, which is really the dimension in which we find norms, then politics becomes nothing but a matter of describing what is.

I’m reading one more question in the OP, which is the question of our response as human beings to inhumanity. I think this can be both more complex and much simpler than it may seem. More complex because the answer may need to address concepts we thought were behind us — retribution, penance, even sin — as well as concepts we are happy to keep but which seem out of place — justice, compassion, openness, courage, humility. Much simpler because the situation may make our response abundantly clear, already.
 
 
Tsuga
01:02 / 20.05.07
when one is instructed to treat another human being as a physical extension of himself (and thereby deny the other person’s soul, even though it presents its existence constantly), that person will do quite monstrous things.
I'm sorry, but besides the gender exclusion, the rest of this doesn't really make sense? Really, I may be obtuse sometimes. No, certainly sometimes. But I also don't understand Evil, in the end, really cannot be explained, at least without resorting to some sort of denial of its existence. At least, I don't feel that comment was explained thoroughly.

And why do you say retaining the notion of evil is still very important? Why can it not be the combinations of circumstances, upbringing, genetics that explain (or at least elucidate) why people do crazy bad shit? Does it have to have more than a material dimension to it? I know, you say it's inexplicable. I would agree, up to the point of saying that the myriad of factors that create an individual and any situation that they come into is too complex to understand with certainty. But being too complicated to understand doesn't make it supernatural.
Really, I think it's just different perspectives, though. You use the term "irredeemable" in a way that makes me think you're saying, "we're not the ones to say who's redeemable" because you're talking about the ultimate redemption from god? I'm sorry if I'm reading it wrong. I think of irredeemable as something some people are because they are too mentally damaged. That is, corporeally. Not to discount your perspective, if I'm even reading it right at all in the first place. If I'm not, I'm sorry. If I am, maybe you could state it more directly?
 
 
SMS
02:23 / 20.05.07
Evil, in the end, really cannot be explained, at least without resorting to some sort of denial of its existence.

At least, I don't feel that comment was explained thoroughly.

One thing I meant was that the concept of evil does not refer to something reducible to materiality. So, for instance, if you give an account of all the physical occurences that take place in a given situation, you won’t need any recourse at all to the concept of evil, but if you want to give a moral account, you might. Now that gets more complicated. Genetics is obviously a study of matter, as is neurology, but it isn’t clear that psychology is ’pure‘ in that sense, nor does it need to be. Or if we talk about the "experience" of abandonment, for instance, we’re not talking about matter (brains) but about qualia.

I’m not saying that evil is inexplicable simply because all the factors that go into it are too complicated to grasp. I’m claiming that, in the domain in which discussions about evil make sense (moral discourse), we need to appeal to certain kinds of reasons to give an account. Maybe I could give some examples, first of what an explanation of a good action might be and why that couldn’t apply to the evil action:

Say I helped a friend who had fallen on hard times find a job. The question is asked, "Why?" in different ways

a) materially: when my brain received certain stimulations, which it interpreted in certain ways, it responded in such and such a way that the rest of my body also moved, which eventually resulted in the body called "my friend" having what is called "a job."

b) psychologically: having been raised in relative comfort, and having witnessed kindness and compassion all my life, I responded to my friend's need kindly and compassionately.

c) morally: it was right to help my friend find a job because it exemplifies virtues and maintains a proper relationship between the two of us.

Now, a psychoanalyst might want to claim that c) is entirely reducible to b) or even a), but c) is the only one of these three that makes normative claims: it is "right" and the relationship is "proper." To reduce the normative claims to materiality is to remove any claims to their legitimacy. The meaning of "right" is radically transformed in the reduction to, either "the appearance of right," or "what this body speaking 'desires' to be right," or something very similar.

In the case of evil, answers a') and b') can be given just as well, but answer c') cannot be given. The moral explanation only runs one way, towards substantive or formal goods. Evil is that which rejects this (which, as I said, is distinct from the case of insider trading). Because it doesn’t seek goods it cannot be explained as evil. This led some people (like the Stoics) to claim that no one does any evil willingly; there’s always some good that is sought. I don’t believe this, and I think the case in the OP is sufficient evidence that the Stoics were wrong. But I also think it would be wrong to toss the whole category c) out the window on this basis.

One objection you could raise would be to say something like this:
"If it is to be accepted that 'I did X because it was right and it was right for l,m,n reasons,' is an explanation for X, then why couldn’t that be inverted: 'I did Y becuase it was wrong and it was wrong for p,q,r reasons'?"

My response would be that the nature of explanations is that they become explanations by living in a systematic conceptual framework. What is morally good has such a framework and is defined positively. But what is evil is nothing but a negation of that framework. Thus, asking about the explanation for the morally evil is analagous to asking for a physical explanation for the physically impossible. The cup that impossibly hovers in mid-air does so only by failing to obey the laws of physics. If you see it happen, you have to decide whether you really saw it, our current understanding of physics is wrong, or whether there simply is no explanation. I think people respond similarly when faced with the morally 'impossible.'

On redemption, yeah, I was at least in part talking about redemption from God, but not without human consequences.

I think of irredeemable as something some people are because they are too mentally damaged. That is, corporeally.

I’m a certain kind of compatibilist when it comes to mind-body questions, so I don't think conceiving of irredeemability this way is too far off. What I would say is that, what I described as irredeemable would necessarily be attended by certain physical states. Just as the mental experience of pleasure is necessarily attended by certain physical brain-states, so would any other mental experience.

I really hope that helped clarify some things. I appreciate your patience because I am doing my best.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
09:22 / 20.05.07
Care to rethink that statement you made in the last paragraph, mako? "Hunted down and executed without due process. Cuz they're rabid animals."


You mean the statement of my personal opinion as to the what should happen, which actually went "I think that like any rabid animal they should be hunted down and executed without due process" (if you're going to use quotation marks, please get the quote right instead of paraphrasing) whereby I compared them to rabid animals, but didn't say that they were rabid animals?

guess that'll make it okay for me kill any US soldier I happen to come across, because as far as I can tell, what they're doing in Iraq, Gitmo, Afghanistan etc etc ad fucking nauseam looks pretty rabid and evil, to me.

That's rather crappy logic - how does my voicing my opinion make it okay, or make it okay to enact similar punishments, or for it to be okay for a vigilante to enact it, or for a vigilante to determine what circumstances are similar enough to warrant it? On the flip side, how does your crappy logic make my opinion less valid in the first place?

Oh, I forgot, they're mostly white Xtians talking English, so obviously they're the good guys. They're with us.

What does that have to with anything? The closest thing to race, religion, and nationality I mentioned was "modern western standards." I hate to burst your little bubble, but modern western standards include numerous races, religions, and countries, so throwing out the banjo playing reverse racism card as a provocative and insightful arguement doesn't really work.

You're just so fucking wrong there mako.

So? To the Darfur rebels it's wrong to treat those outside their group as being deserving of humanity and compassion, to the point where gross abuses that wouldn't be carried out on animals are to be carried out on these people. Right and wrong are entirely subjective - to me its right to have a dawn raid on the rebel base and annihilate it by dusk, showing as much compassion as one can in the killing of others (i.e no rape and torture), in order to prevent further horrific abuses to occur and as punishment for those that already have.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
09:48 / 20.05.07
I'm still holding out the idea that this "evil" we're all so quick to talk about as if it's a physical reality is actually just a concept we use to think about physical reality. Like human rights or the seven day week - rocks and stones don't acknowledge the existence of these things, they are cultural, human inventions. None of this makes them worthless. We have these concepts, maps and ideas becuase they help us deal with the world. Approaching the world using human rights as one of our maps, for example, ensures useful, productive things happen. Using a system of weeks and days that we all share helps us get on/work together/acheive stuff.

Likewise, just because "Evil" or "Good vs Evil" is a cultural concept and not a natural fact doesn't make it useless.

However. I simply don't think that Good and Evil are a useful way of thinking about a highly political situation. The minute you start saying "These people are Evil" you're a) ignoring all other possible reasons for this horrific behaviour and b) keying in to a medieval, religious worldview* where there is a "God" and a "Devil" (this is where the words good and evil come from), where some people are influenced by one and some by the other, and where the only options for those controlled by the devil are death and hell or redemption through joining the dogma from which you are talking.

The latter is exactly the tack that Empire uses throughout history; it doesn't work, it fucks people/s up, and it ultimately leads to this sort of thing happening in Darfur. This is why I think it's incredibly dangerous to throw it around here. It strikes me as basically powerblind.

*I'm thinking about how in Foucault the boundary between the old categories "Sinful" and "Holy" and the new cats "Normal" and "Pathological" are far more porous than we like to beleive, the very real danger of outmoded concepts coming back through modern language.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
09:58 / 20.05.07
To me its right to have a dawn raid on the rebel base and annihilate it by dusk, showing as much compassion as one can in the killing of others (i.e no rape and torture), in order to prevent further horrific abuses to occur and as punishment for those that already have.

This statement is a perfect example of the problems I'm talking about. The fact that "we" (i.e. the west) have so much power as to be able to do this, or to consider it as belonging even to the realm of possibility, is the underlying economic reality that means resources and food in Darfur are incapable of sustaining peaceful relations. Random noble raids by the "compassionate outraged white man" will do absolutely nothing to change the setup. There's a recent slight skirmish in Mesopotamia you might want to consider in relation to this.

This is the point at which liberal humanism/liberal capitalism, however useful it may have been in some cases, fails as method. Marxist economic analysis is the only tool I know of (there may be more) both powerful and precise enough to deal with global violence this serious.

The "base" you are suggesting we attack is really only the superstructure ; what needs to be attacked is the real i.e. economic base.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
10:16 / 20.05.07
Mako, you said in fact I think that like any rabid animal they should be hunted down and executed without due process. In reply to my post, you say you were comparing them to rabid animals, not saying that they actually -were- rabid animals. I fail to see how I have misrepresented you. And I'll quote any way I like as long as it conveys the same meaning. What are you saying is that insofar as they have effectively dehumanised themselves, you have the right to do the same and treat them as so many dangerous animals, to whom you will not and should not accord any due process, but instead administer an apparently humane execution to, that (huzzah!!!!!!!) wouldn't include rape or torture. How very magnanimous.

My logic was modelled on yours, so the crappiness is entirely right, only you don't recognise it in your own argument. And there were sarcasm markers there, dude. The %%? If Darfur rebels=rabid animals=warrants execution, then US soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan/Gitmo=rabid animals=warrants execution. Your dawn raid (%how romantic!%) should do the trick.
 
 
This Sunday
11:18 / 20.05.07
I wrote a silly-long post working everything down to this:

(a) If you can't find a reason to dehumanize another population, historically you just make a few up and then kill enough of them you can print more history books than they can.

(b) I'm born from genocide. There's a good case some strain of my earliest white ancestors were probably trying to other ancestors of mine, and there was enough horrible shit going on, who knows if they were slicing bits off women and tossing them to dogs, spearing kids on sticks, and what not.

(c) If you don't leave room for the notion that people can 'get better', in this life-thing, the only sensible option is to kill them. If a person is totally unforgivable and a total no-hoper, the only option is putting them down. For those who have a hard time forgiving, the sheer amount of cruel work they would have to engage in, should make the forgiving or assumption of 'they can get better'/retrievability that much easier to work with.

(d) How many generations does it take for those like 'rabid animals' to be clearly human and not so good for mass-killing? One or three? A year? Soon as the war/combat is declared 'off', regardless of what other actions are going on with them?

(e) How come, in the States, we only take refugee boys of certain ages out of Sudan? And why don't I like the answers I've come up with, so far?
 
 
SMS
12:16 / 20.05.07
what needs to be attacked is the real i.e. economic base.

The answer to the question of this thread all ultimately comes down to ontology, doesn’t it? What is really at the base of reality? What is really real? What is? If good and evil are understood as "only" concepts, possibly useful fantasies but not getting at anything true, then something like AR's logic follows pretty naturally.

I don’t see anything inherent in the discussion of God and Devil that would make it necessary to ignore other explanations. In fact, we could find historical examples of medical professionals discussing without difficulty the devil's influence alongside medical explanations. Which is why, I think, the normal and pathological were able to emerge out of the good and the evil. Why this couldn't be the case with economic analysis (and what would we do if it turned out Marx himself was only possible through a historical theological discourse?) I don't know.

"The" Medieval Worldview seems to have been unable to avoid a variety of violent tendencies, but to link it to Empire, we need to talk about a Medieval-Modern Worldview (since the Medieval was not marked by nations, let alone Empires), and to talk about the Medieval-Modern Worldview, we need to include the importance of ancient Greece and Rome, without whom the Modern would not have been possible. And to really talk about that, we'd have to include the Islamic role in bringing much of Ancient Greece back to Europe. So we'd be talking, really, about the worldview of Western Civilization and beyond, none of which was devoid of concepts of good and evil (even though they surely had thinkers who wanted to do away with them).

What I would claim is that much violence occurs both for what is perceived to be good and in the name of what is thought to be good. But much more violence would result if nothing were good.
 
 
wicker woman
05:22 / 22.05.07
Well, we could talk about "good" or "evil". And this would immediately obscure things like economics, colonialism, starvation, and poverty, all of which are massive contributions to this horrific incident. I'm not being deliberately hard-nosed - I genuinely don't think "good and evil" is even approaching a useful way of thinking about this.

Normally, I would agree. But when I hear stories like the one I related above, I have to say... at what point do "economics, colonialism, starvation, and poverty" stop being sufficient as rational explanations for this kind of behavior? Surely at least a few of them would have stopped and said "Hey... I know we've got it bad, but are we really going to force this (guy to rape his own sister) / (woman to hang her own baby), " etc. etc. etc.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
09:32 / 22.05.07
I would think that socioeconomic and political reasons for these kinds of behaviours are necessary but not sufficient. Structural deprivation coupled with psychological factors such as diffusion of responsibility/the bystander effect, progressive desensitisation to violence leading to a view of Others as not human, and hierarchical in-group coercion all ease the path to extreme violence. Here's a quote from a Japanese soldier participating in the Nanking atrocities in WW2:

‘If my life was not important . . . an enemy’s life became inevitably much less important . . . This philosophy led us to look down on the enemy . . .’

Another quote from the same paper:
Veena Das argues that during the creation of nations, female bodies become maps where new borders are drawn.
Women symbolise the violation of nations and violated women justify retaliation (1996, p. 83). Both sides invoked this dualism during the partition of Punjab in 1947 when up to 100,000 Muslim, Hindu and Sikh women were abducted and raped (Das 1996, p. 67). Violating ‘the others’ women acted to infinitely mark territory. Robert Hayden compares the break-up of Punjab with that of Yugoslavia and argues that sexual violence became widely perpetrated in both instances due to the goal of partition. Hayden points out that what situations where rape has not been significant have in common is that people are expecting a continued coexistence. Rape makes this expectation impossible (2000, p. 31).


Both quotes from Elisabeth Vikman (2005), Modern Combat: Sexual Violence in Warfare, Part 2, Anthropology & Medicine 12:1.

In sum, my view is that the use of binaries such as Good/Evil are useless for an understanding of acts such as described in this thread, however tempting their use might be.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:40 / 22.05.07
I would think that socioeconomic and political reasons for these kinds of behaviours are necessary but not sufficient. Structural deprivation coupled with psychological factors such as diffusion of responsibility/the bystander effect, progressive desensitisation to violence leading to a view of Others as not human, and hierarchical in-group coercion all ease the path to extreme violence.

Aye.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
15:58 / 22.05.07
Thanks for that, AR! I'm still waiting for Mako to defend or retract that statement about dawn raids and all that, which got me going in the first place.
However, this

This is the point at which liberal humanism/liberal capitalism, however useful it may have been in some cases, fails as method. Marxist economic analysis is the only tool I know of (there may be more) both powerful and precise enough to deal with global violence this serious.

a) needs some serious unpacking, cause
b) on the face of it, I simply cannot agree, as IMHO all you're doing is substituting one set of binaries with another, ie instead of good v evil you set up have v have-not. And I for one don't believe it is that simple. Appealing to Marxist analyses smacks of a "nothing-but" attitude that is as fallacious as it is imprecise. Yes we need to look at politics and economy in a systemic perspective, but we also need meso and micro-levels of analysis (such as anthropological studies, social-psych, cognitive and clinical science amongst many others). In short, and this might be occasion for another Headshop thread somewhere along the line, we need methods and theories of analysis that doesn't reduce phenomena to nothing-but-societal-structures or nothing-but-individual-choices.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
16:27 / 22.05.07
on the face of it, I simply cannot agree, as IMHO all you're doing is substituting one set of binaries with another, ie instead of good v evil you set up have v have-not.

No, I'm not...I don't suggest installing a "haves vs have-nots" binary, I suggest proper scientific economic analysis which would reveal the actual shape of the power-money-resources structure (which by it's nature would be far more complicated than "haves vs have-nots").

I appreciate that some people in the past have gone under the banner of Marxism whilst promoting systems so black and white they are even less useful than Christianity (Year Zero, etc).
 
 
werwolf
08:06 / 24.05.07
[threadrot]
would love to join this discussion, but it's become too overwhelming... for me... hope to be able to gather my thoughts and pitch in at a later point... congrats on the thread, highly interesting!
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
09:25 / 24.05.07
What are you saying is that insofar as they have effectively dehumanised themselves, you have the right to do the same and treat them as so many dangerous animals

No, I'm saying that I have the right to think this an appropriate course of action, a right which is determined by the simple fact that I have the power of thought - I don't have the power to enact such a course nor will I develop or receive such powers in the immediate future, however even if did have the right to do so, this would not mean that such acts were right.

to whom you will not and should not accord any due process

Nor am I saying that if I had such powers than I would use them, or that having them automatically rules out any other options - just because something should be done and that it can be done, this does not mean that it will be done.

And I'll quote any way I like as long as it conveys the same meaning.

And if it doesn't, you'll tell me what I actually meant? How very magnanimous.

My logic was modelled on yours

My logic is that a group which has consistently practiced acts of ethnic cleansing and genocide, to the tune of half a million dead and two million displaced (U.N estimates) over a four year period, has shown an ammoral and highly dangerous nature with minimal internal and external measures of control. Past regimes of similar natures have not been afforded due process when intervention has taken place, until such time as their capacity to enact their highly dangerous nature was removed, as such a process is a luxury which cannot be afforded when 300-400 lives a day are at stake, most of which are civilians.

so the crappiness is entirely right

Your logic is that within a group that hasn't practiced acts of genocide and which follows the Geneva convention guidelines and has both internal/external measures of control, there are isolated elements which go against the majority of the group; this then gives you the right to kill any member of the group even though the vast majority are in no way within the same league as the Darfur rebels. This logic is based on the premise that because I have an opinion, you can warp this opinion to your own ends to justify whatever you feel like.

And there were sarcasm markers there, dude.

No shit - though sarcasm doesn't make for an insightful and compelling arguement, for or against. At best it takes a flaw and amplifies it to great magnitude so that this flaw seems to be the defining characteristic, instead of giving equal weight to the entire subject.

(d) How many generations does it take for those like 'rabid animals' to be clearly human and not so good for mass-killing? One or three? A year? Soon as the war/combat is declared 'off', regardless of what other actions are going on with them?

How many generations should those people be allowed to massacre, and do so solely for personal gain, as opposed to preventing and deterring them? I'm not sure how many Darfur rebels there are compared to how many kills they've wracked up, but I am confident that one dead darfur rebel amounts to more than one life being saved in future, and repayment for more than one life being ended in the past - even if it was a one for one trade, I'd still prefer the constructive life to be saved over the destructive one.

The fact that "we" (i.e. the west) have so much power as to be able to do this, or to consider it as belonging even to the realm of possibility, is the underlying economic reality that means resources and food in Darfur are incapable of sustaining peaceful relations. Random noble raids by the "compassionate outraged white man" will do absolutely nothing to change the setup.

Though the fact that "we" are responsible for these conditions seems to require that a greater responsibility is taken for them - random acts won't do much, but concentrated acts with specific goals will; fires need to be put out before rebuilding can commence.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:46 / 24.05.07
This thread is too depressing, in treatment and subject matter, for me to get into right now, but some vague sense of moderatorial duty incites me to request that people, if they use quotation marks, actually quote rather than paraphrasing. If they wish to paraphrase, they should state that they are paraphrasing.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
10:13 / 24.05.07
Mako...

No, I'm saying that I have the right to think this an appropriate course of action, a right which is determined by the simple fact that I have the power of thought - I don't have the power to enact such a course nor will I develop or receive such powers in the immediate future, however even if did have the right to do so, this would not mean that such acts were right.

Yes, of course you have the right to think that. But to me it seems there's an ickle bit of self-contradiction going on when you now state that such acts (I presume you're referring to dawn raids etc) are not right. Sure sounded like you advocated such measures upthread, regardless of your personal pwer or willingness to do so.

And voila:
just because something should be done and that it can be done, this does not mean that it will be done.
There we go again. So tell me Mako, is it right or is it not right to annihilate these animalistic thugs?

Moving on:
Your logic is that within a group that hasn't practiced acts of genocide and which follows the Geneva convention guidelines and has both internal/external measures of control, there are isolated elements which go against the majority of the group; this then gives you the right to kill any member of the group even though the vast majority are in no way within the same league as the Darfur rebels.

The group we are referring to here is the US Army and aother defense-affiliated US state orgs right? In that case, well, where to start? American Indians? The colonisation of the Phillipines under Teddy Roosevelt? Countless 19th and 20th century "interventions" in Meso- and South America? Vietnam? Falluja?

In case you're confused I'll quote the definition of genocide here:

Genocide is the mass killing of a group of people as defined by Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

So, I'll argue that directly the US armed forces have engaged in genocide and attempted genocide a number of times. In addition they have sponsored and backed genocides all over the globe, ranging from Saddam's gassing of Iranians and Kurds in the 80's to the Timorese genocide perpetrated by US (and British) backed Indonesian forces. Add to this Gitmo, Iraq etc. And your belief that they're acting within the Geneva Conventions' guidelines beggars belief. The same with your belief that these are acts of misguided individuals.

This logic is based on the premise that because I have an opinion, you can warp this opinion to your own ends to justify whatever you feel like.

No. This logic is based on your own logic, as I explained upthread. I haven't warped your beliefs. That you still insist I've misrepresented you is pure evasion my friend. It was you who likened them to animals.

Directly quoted from your post: in fact I think that like any rabid animal they should be hunted down and executed without due process
Excuse me, but I cannot for the life of me see how you haven't said they were on par with rabid animals. And further I cannot see how you can later try and weasel out of your commitment to plain and simple kill'em all.

More later, maybe.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
15:35 / 24.05.07
But to me it seems there's an ickle bit of self-contradiction going on when you now state that such acts (I presume you're referring to dawn raids etc) are not right.

And again with the telling me what I actually meant. How does my stating that the right of power does not automatically make the use of that power the right course of action, actually come to mean that utilizing power makes it wrong and that I've changed my mind about my earlier statement?

So tell me Mako, is it right or is it not right to annihilate these animalistic thugs?

As I said earlier, right and wrong are entirely subjective. From the perspective of preventing these "animalistic thugs" from annihilating numerous others and doing so in a disgusting manner, than yes, it is right. Though maybe I mean something else, please enlighten me.

The group we are referring to here is the US Army and aother defense-affiliated US state orgs right?

Well you originally said US soldiers and "mostly white Xtians talking English" - the later of which includes British, Australian, and New Zealand forces - though I guess what you meant was the U.S army?

So, I'll argue that directly the US armed forces have engaged in genocide and attempted genocide a number of times.

Fair enough, can't argue against that. How many civilians a day are currently being killed by the U.S army by the way? What would be the odds of your choosing a U.S Soldier at random and killing them be in regards to avoiding the rape, torture, or killing of a civilian in the near future?

That you still insist I've misrepresented you is pure evasion my friend.

Given up on your sarcasm markers I see.

Excuse me, but I cannot for the life of me see how you haven't said they were on par with rabid animals.

Similie - a figure of speech in which two unlike things are explicitly compared - i.e they're like rabid animals (which is what I said).

Metaphor - a figure of speech in which two unlike things are substituted - i.e they are rabid animals (which is what you said I said).

Normally I wouldn't mind being misquoted in such a manner, but given the nature of the discussion and my point of view on the subject (which raises cries of "you're so fucking wrong" instead of "interesting theory, please elaborate on why you think that") I'd prefer to be represented by my own words and not the words of those telling me I'm wrong, and what I actually meant was *insert what I actually meant here* especially when they're trying to point out why I'm wrong in the first place.

And further I cannot see how you can later try and weasel out of your commitment to plain and simple kill'em all.

Because while I've stated what I think should be done and why, and defended myself where you've told me what I actually meant, the act of reinforcing and defending my position is actually an act of retreat?
 
 
Closed for Business Time
10:23 / 25.05.07
Mako: One final remark, as I think we've made it painfully clear that we have substantive and likely irreconcilable differences of opinion.

So, we've established that you believe it is right to kill the Darfur militias without due process. You certainly have the right to have and voice that opinion, and I apologise for sounding like I was trying to silence your voice just because I happen to disagree. I also realise I was wrong to attribute to you a racist/othering attitude. However that was certainly part and parcel of my reading of your initial post. Whether you are in fact a racist I have no idea. I sure hope not.

The debate about the subjectivity of right and wrong is interesting in light of the thread's topic and our argument, but we would be stuck here for much too long before sorting that out.

The final thing I'd like to comment on is our bickering about your use of simile, and my quoting/(mis?)representation thereof. AFAIK simile (and metaphor, which is what I turned your quote into, eg from "x are like rabid animals >> x ARE rabid animals) is a rhetorical device used to establish a substantive identity between two unlike objects or phenomena. That you chose to use a simile to describe the Darfur militias is fine, but that doesn't IMHO mean that you can totally disengage yourself from the connotative meanings of that simile. Also I don't believe I wilfully misrepresented you or warped the meaning of your words by turning that simile into a metaphor.

So when you compared them to rabid animals I read that as a proposition stating their value as human beings = 0. Which I also disagree with.

So be it. I've nothing further to add to this debate, unless, of course, you feel there's something I haven't but should comment on.
 
 
Quantum
11:09 / 25.05.07
I'm reluctant to get entangled, but I just wanted to say the second post by ROFLady had some great stuff there on the Stamford experiment etc. explaining psychologically why people do these things.
Mako's desire to destroy the rebels without due process is an understandable reaction I'm sure, but there are bucket loads of examples around the world of horrific human rights violations, rape and torture camps etc. that don't make the news, and after an emotive response has worn off you have to think about what is best in the long term, military intervention by a foreign power (which didn't work too well in Iraq f'rexample) or something else. I'm depressed to say the initial post didn't shock me, as while fundraising for various charities I've come across many stories as bad or much worse (which I won't repeat because they are truly horrific) but the urge for vengeance isn't the best reaction IMHO. The hoary old Nietzsche quote applies here;
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.

Mako- would you include in your dawn raid the dude who freed the woman in the story? And, importantly I think, do you support capital punishment for murder?
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
14:44 / 25.05.07
My orginal statement was "I think that like any rabid animal they should be hunted down and executed without due process" and you decided I meant: -

1) That the Darfur Rebels were rabid animals...
2) And because of this, I had the right to put them down...
3) And that having this power meant its use was okay...
4) And that this meant I would not in any way give due process.
5) As I shouldn't give them due process.

And that by extension: -

6) This gave anyone the same rights if condition (1) were met in their mind.
7) However should the subject being considered in (1) be of ones own kind, they would be exempt from facing (2).
8) Which is a condition I've put in place because I'm a racist.

And that this made me so fucking wrong (presumably) because:

1) They're not literally rabid, hence my p.o.v is automatically invalidated, however...
2) Having an opinion does not give someone the power to enact it...
3) And even if it did, might does not make right...
4) And due process is considered a human right...
5) And being a human right, it is wrong to deny it...
6) And that giving anyone the power to deny it is clearly wrong...
7) Which would be made even worse because it would most likely be taken up and abused by racists...
8) And that racism is wrong, especially if it leads to a free for all between races as they implemented condition (6).

However in saying "I think that like any rabid animal they should be hunted down and executed without due process" I meant: -

a) The Darfur Rebels can be compared to rabid animals...
b) Because their defining attribute is a vicious and dangerous nature...
c) Which may be a mental disorder...
d) That puts the lives of those they are in contact with in grave and imminent danger...
e) And that to prevent this danger from being enacted a vicious and dangerous nature must be adopted against them...
f) And that due to time constraints which they themselves have imposed...
g) The luxury of due process can not be afforded...
h) Even though they are to be deprived of life.

And that by extenstion: -

i) At such time as the Darfur Rebels no longer posed a grave and imminent danger, due process can be afforded.

Also I don't believe I wilfully misrepresented you or warped the meaning of your words by turning that simile into a metaphor

As you said, we have substantive and likely irreconcilable differences of opinion.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
14:57 / 25.05.07
Well, thanks for the rejoinder, Mako. I'm out bowing out of this thread for now, agreeing to disagree and leaving it at that.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
17:14 / 25.05.07
Mako's desire to destroy the rebels without due process is an understandable reaction I'm sure but... after an emotive response has worn off you have to think about what is best in the long term.

My p.o.v isn't so much the result of hot blooded outrage, but rather cold blooded analysis, and whilst I’m aware of similar campaigns that have failed, I don’t rule out the theory just as I don’t rule out Socialist theory. Like you, the acts of the Darfur Rebels, Sudanese Militia, Janjaweed, etc. don’t surprise me either; after studying and empathizing with those involved in such horror stories as the European and South Pacific concentration camps of the Second World War, being surprised by acts of “inhumanity” doesn’t seem possible to me.

Mako- would you include in your dawn raid the dude who freed the woman in the story?

The purpose of such an operation would be primarily to prevent the Darfur rebel groups from having the objective and ability to continue their campaign of genocide, before this objective and ability to continue was made defunct by their success - acting as a deterrent to reformation and as a punishment would also be considerations. It’s nice that on that one day he showed compassion (though did so under the premise that she would die anyway, so perhaps it was an act of torture) however if the man in question was still part of a rebel group, than the rebel group would have the ability to continue its campaign.

And, importantly I think, do you support capital punishment for murder?
I’m of the opinion that it’s justifiable to take a life, provided that life is posing a grave an imminent danger to the life of oneself or another, and that taking that life is the only way to prevent ones own life or the life of another from being taken; capital punishment means that the offender has already been incarcerated and prevented from posing a grave and imminent danger to the life of another, hence there is no justification for taking their life. Whilst taking the offenders life may seem like a fitting punishment for murder and a practical solution to imprisonment costs, it will not replace the life taken or guarantee the right offender has been punished, nor encourage a financially self sufficient prison population or offer the offender a chance to contribute to society in some way, once the danger to society has been neutralized.
 
 
Quantum
10:14 / 26.05.07
Sounds like you would support assassination by that rationale, in order to prevent more deaths caused by (say) Saddam it's justifiable to kill him, by any means necessary and without due process because it's urgent.
I'm afraid I've got to vehemently disagree with you about killing people, so it's probably best if I duck out at this point. Before I go I would point at some websites on restorative justice, and suggest you have a read of the testimony of some ex-rebels, or people in similar situations who've managed to escape. I read an article on decommisioning paramilitary groups recently (unfortunately I can't recall where) about a South American guy who was in a rebel group, forced to kill people and so on, who now grows bananas with a partner who was on the opposite side. He said, for example, one guy wanted to get out and leave the organisation, asked the leader, who told him to immediately go and dig his own grave. It isn't as black and white as you are making out IMHO and peace is best found through reconciliation and negotiation rather than dawn military raids. Who are we to police the world anyway?
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
04:50 / 28.05.07
Sounds like you would support assassination by that rationale

Yes, though the greater the urgency the greater my support - ideally a minority report type set up would be in place, but that's far from realistic.

I'm afraid I've got to vehemently disagree with you about killing people

Is that my attitude towards what can justify killing?

He said, for example, one guy wanted to get out and leave the organisation, asked the leader, who told him to immediately go and dig his own grave.

If so than where does that person fit in with your ideas on the matter? Sounds to me like he stayed the course of genocide because he believed his life was in a grave and imminent danger. Either way, just following orders isn't much of an excuse; granted the rebels in some circumstance are under duress and possibly unaccountable due to ammoral natures, however this does not prevent them from taking lives - it makes it more likely.

In regards to the campaign already mentioned, if morale and motivation are so low to begin with, than it's more likely to suceede and do so faster - not many soldiers are going to fight for a cause they don't believe in if they're given the option to turn and run, especially if failing to take this option will quickly lead to their death and prevent them from be punished for failing to fight.

Who are we to police the world anyway?

We as in you and I, or we as in those that actually have the power to do so? I think the more relevant question is "who are we not to police the world, especially if it needs policing because of our actions in the first place?"
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
04:54 / 28.05.07
Mind you, just following orders can be a defence is one doesn't know the orders are illegal - I don't think this is the case with the Darfur rebels, especially if they're protesting about carrying out the orders.
 
 
Quantum
13:43 / 28.05.07
Is that my attitude towards what can justify killing?

Well, let me ask you what can justify killing? I should warn you that I'm against capital punishment because I don't think you *can* morally justify killing, so I'm likely to disagree with you, as I do about unilateral military intervention and executing people in dawn raids etc.

"who are we not to police the world, especially if it needs policing because of our actions in the first place?"

Clearly we are Team America, World Police. I didn't realise.
Do you think more interference with other nations in defiance of the international community and international law will lead to more violence, or less? I notice that Afghanistan, Iraq etc. aren't quite the democratic utopias the invasions were purportedly attempting to establish. Perhaps you're proposing a UN taskforce put down the rebels? I'd prefer the world police to be the UN rather than the US, but really imposing order from outside is very unlikely to succeed whoever does it. I think reconciliation and disarmament are more successful tools than killing, and I would point to Northern Ireland as an example of a (kinda) successful peace process, where military force failed.

Anyway, I wanted to respond out of politeness, but I really am going to bow out now because I don't believe in evil or any deontological ethics, I don't have anything to say about Darfur that wouldn't go better in the Switchboard, and I think we're going to fundamentally disagree and I don't want to fight.
 
  

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