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Human Sacrifice

 
  

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SMS
02:20 / 06.05.07
I am interested in understanding the internal logic of human sacrifice. The caricature given of human sacrifice is pretty purely mechanistic: the ancient so-and-so's used to sacrifice virgins/children/their enemies in order to produce a good crop, because they all figured that this worked, and, besides that, it was a method for controlling the masses, etc.

But isn't there more to it than that? Does the practice of human sacrifice do more than merely produce a mechanical effect, first on the material world, and second in the socio-political sphere of control and domination? Might it, in face, be understood as a making sacred, even of the very thing that is sacrificed — namely human life? I don't know the answer to that question, but I am suspicious of the caricature.

Once this internal logic is understood, I have lingering questions, noted in the abstract: "Is there anything in its practice worth recovering for "good" magic, and is there any trace of it (in its sacred sense) in practices today."

Crazy people surfing the web, please note: I condemn the practice of human sacrifice whole-heartedly, and am in no way planning to perform one.
 
 
This Sunday
02:49 / 06.05.07
I think it's been refined a bit, so that it's usually the idea, these days, that you're supposed to crap on other people, make their lives shitty and unpleasant, to be a grand supermage. Or, that you have to do something similar to your own life and die miserable, alone, penniless with bruised shins and a broken finger or two and puke stained into your shirt, because then are you truly enlightened.

A lot of the historic cultures who committed mass human sacrifices, we now basically know didn't. Or, at least, not to the degree we were taught as little kids and believed as academics and historians in previous times. The Aztecs, for instance, or the Persians, and possibly even a good deal of the wickerman stuff was far more animals or the occasioned criminal-type or PoW, rather than just pick a number and pray.

The single or small-group murder sequences that are even tangentially tied to magick - I may not like to agree with Crowley, but Gilles de Rais was a bit absurd, yeah? The bulk of it's just sicko thrillkillers. The rest is inadvertent or very disconnected except on theoretical or hypothetical bases. There wasn't any deep spiritual aspect to Manson, to Oppenheimer's infamous Trinity quote, or that band that killed a couple of sixteen year-olds in Milan. At least, none that's been effectively demonstrated.

The bronze bull is a make-the-community-feel-good-and-united/scare-community-silently-shitless tactic. It's the same as putting on a war or a good lynching party to distract people from the problems in their day-to-day and simultaneously remind them how they too could be punished.

And, personally, I always found (deliberately) killing someone a mark of real weakness. It's not that hard to get someone to stop breathing, for one thing, but it's almost always from a position of not being able to let them live. That's legal executions, middle of war experiences, and the more predicated murder murder. This is not to say for someone there is no weakness or some similar pretense, for we've all got weaknesses, but that the lionizing is a case of still standing and not any sort of real superiority, no matter how shitty the dead person may've been.

Sade was right on the money with that one. Once killed, there ain't much you can do to them. And it never really makes you right.
 
 
*
17:26 / 06.05.07
To sacrifice something is literally to make it sacred, to set it apart from ordinary uses for the use and benefit of the Divine, the ancestors, or someone else. The Divine may or may not consume the thing being sacrificed; it may also just get the benefit of the gift and return it—changed, but perhaps in ways we can't perceive. For instance, when animals were sacrificed to the Gods of Olympus, their meat was eaten by the people sacrificing them—the Gods took the benefit of the sacrifice, carried from the animal carcass to the heavens in the smoke from the cooking fire. The meat appeared to be unchanged by this essence departing it and being consumed by the Gods.

I sometimes sacrifice myself when I do ritual sex, to the Divine in the person of my partner, or to my partner himself. He may not see it that way, but it matters that I do. I'm aware that when I do this I might be consumed or altered by the experience, and that's terrifying, and the entire point.
 
 
Quantum
19:52 / 06.05.07
I thought sacrifice was about giving up something you own, something of yours to the deity-or-whatever. I feel very differently about someone offering themselves to the Divine (which is lovely) than I do about offering someone else to the divine by slitting their throat. I can't imagine many victims were *for* human sacrifice, except perhaps the bronze age bog men or those sun kings.
 
 
Quantum
20:01 / 06.05.07
I mean to say, you can't own someone else so you can't offer them as sacrifice in my opinion.
 
 
SMS
21:23 / 06.05.07
From what I've read, ritual sacrifice is very often considered quite apart from actual ownership, which is not to say that it is generally encouraged to grab your neighbor's goat for a sacrifice, but only that it might still be considered a sacrifice, albeit an unlawful one.
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:19 / 06.05.07
I think what has been recovered and is good in the examples given, are the ideas of self sacrafice, offering ones life on trust to something, becoming a sacred offering as quantum mentions you cannot offer anothers sacrifice, as its only your own that you really own on a temporary basis at that.

To lose oneself or life in a moment of sacrality as Id mentions is what is most treasurable in human sacrifice, the faith and trust of letting ones life fall out of ones hands and into a state of sacred space and being, letting go of control through conscious choice and submission perhaps.
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:26 / 06.05.07
It means giving up alot of self serving illusions and seeing something that requires your love or courage, or a quality that means forgoing your life in favour of more lives or something that will effect more lives hopefully for the greater good.
 
 
*
06:05 / 07.05.07
I'm sorry for hijacking and for talking in tones of authority. All of what I'm blathering on about here is my opinion and experience, open to question, debate, analysis, and refutation. I'm elaborating a little here, so you know where I'm coming from with this.

So, my understanding of sacrifice is based on the following components of my belief system:
The Divine is not removed from the ordinary world of the living, it permeates it.
Sacredness is a quality that sets things of the Divine apart from things of ordinary consciousness—in people's experiences of them.
Holiness is a quality of Divinity that permeates ordinary things and people.
To make something sacred, therefore, two things have to happen—it has to be removed from ordinary use, ownership, or existence, and it has to be surrendered over to the Divine (or its representatives) to use as the Divine wills.
To make something holy it is enough to recognize it as containing Divine essence. Holy is the default state of everything, in my worldview.

Following from this, since the Divine is present in the world of living things, to remove a person from the world of the living is not to give them to the Divine. The Gods may benefit more from having them here in the living world—in fact they almost certainly would, since a living person can make sacrifices to the Gods and a dead person probably cannot, since they own and use nothing to sacrifice. In my relationship with my Gods I have never known them to tell me that something should be offered them by its total destruction in the ordinary world. If you wish to offer the Gods a gift of song, the way to do that, in my worldview, is not to sever your larynx. I can't avoid making a judgment about this, even with respect to other people's practices, even if I accept that it's possible that I'm wrong.

The ritual taking of a human life removes a whole set of holy possibilities from the world of the living. In almost every case, I believe, it takes away from the Divine. One might as well be picking the Gods' pockets and then expecting them to be grateful.

There are a bunch of ways to remove something from the ordinary in order to make it sacred. It can be physically destroyed, in some cases, but that's only if having it physically intact is not part of the point of the gift. You could also cease to use it, and ceasing to be able to use it can increase the emotional impact of the setting aside. You could also give up sovereignty, ownership, or control over it. Let's say I decided to sacrifice my left hand to some God. I could cut it off (or have it bitten off by a wolf, maybe). It may or may not be useful to the God in that form. But let's say instead I took an oath to use my hand only for what the God willed. Maybe, further, I could wear a glove or bind my hand to constantly remind myself of my oath. The God might be able to make use of that gift in a practical way, and it would be a powerful reminder of my dedication and service. I could also, theoretically, make an agreement with the God that I would no longer own or control that hand, and when the God wished to make use of it, the God could use it without my intervention (partial body possession; don't know how often it's been documented). It all depends on what's appropriate to the situation.

I think it's important to have an equal emphasis on removing the thing from ordinary use, and making it available to the Divine in a practical, intentional, and appropriate manner. The emphasis on ritual killing or destruction as the most obvious and simplest form of sacrifice tends to be an emphasis on removing the thing from the ordinary world, without regard to whether this effectively makes it available to the Divine or not.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:34 / 07.05.07
In my trad...

Back in the day, when our Gods used to recieve human sacrifice per se, it was seen very literally as giving the individual to the God. They'd go on and join Them in the afterlife. More than one God used to be the recipient of man-blót, but the one best-known for liking the occasional human in the mix is Odin.

The thing I note about a lot of the sacrifices made to Odin is that many of those unfortunate men and women were going to die for some other reason. The sacrifice aspect seems to have consisted of their deaths being specifically dedicated to Odin. Condemned criminals were hanged in Odin's name; battles were dedicated to Him by hurling a spear over the assembled warriors with the assertion that "Odin has you all!" Infanticide was practiced at the time by means of exposure; whilst not sacrifice exactly, those infants were said to be taken by Odin when they died. (Author Freya Aswynn has stated that she sees children abandoned to institutions, as she was, as potentially belonging to Odin in a similar way.) It was also not unknown for Odin's people to sacrifice themselves by suicide.

These days of course it is necessary to re-evaluate the practice, and Odin's nature as a God of sacrifice. Give or take a falling out between death-metallers or gaolhouse shivving, the sacrifice given to Odin by most of His people is the sacrifice of the self. This is accepted by the dedicant as potentially having a very literal meaning--the Old Man might choose to cut your tenure on Midgard a little shorter than you might wish--but is also understood to have a deeper symbolic meaning, that of trancendance.
 
 
This Sunday
10:49 / 07.05.07
Y'know, that last post, and the synchronous reading in another window of something linked by somebody in the Odin thread, and I'm thinking, flat-out legit suicide I've got no real problem with. Dedicated to some end, some goal, perhaps even less so than just deciding to fuck with it. It may be the one thing I think we all should be allowed to entirely decide for ourselves.

I may be the only person in my semi-immediate family to have never once tried to suicide. Most of them between the ages of eight and fourteen, some later and successful. And I don't mean cry-for-help half-assing it, but making a real good go of it and failing because they were kids. We've got grand stories of ancestors suiciding for political reasons, to protect someone else, or because they'd been enslaved and would've been sold on the other side of the world. Heroic stories of a lines of men and women doing themselves in with farming tools rather than be enslaved does weird things to your worldview, I think.

Suicide for religion, because it's contracted to specific ends? Not a lionizing of a last go round, not a pompous run of self-destruction and misery (which Cab Calloway just sang at the same time I typed it) and flopping about in the gutter for your own good, but because there's a deal to an end? A debt or promise called in? Even if it were for a god or an entity, a policy, that I had no great faith in, I couldn't bring myself to get righteous and cry nay about it. Odin always struck me as a decent enough god if you've got to have one, but someone who worships Mickey Mouse or old hissyfit-throwing Yahweh? I feel like I should be against it, even as a hypothetical, but, y'know, it's their contract. Even it's just making one with their own self.

I still maintain the rest is either thrillkill or community building, though, ninety-nine times out of ninety-nine and a third.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:58 / 07.05.07
I thought sacrifice was about giving up something you own, something of yours to the deity-or-whatever. I feel very differently about someone offering themselves to the Divine (which is lovely) than I do about offering someone else to the divine by slitting their throat. I can't imagine many victims were *for* human sacrifice, except perhaps the bronze age bog men or those sun kings.

In the case of something like Abraham's near-sacrifice of Isaac, Isaac was considered, as Abraham's son, to be his most prized "possession", and the most important Earthly thing he had.
 
 
grant
15:00 / 07.05.07
Mmm -- that story's a little tricky, though, since God ends up saying, "No, don't want him after all."

There's a thread running through the Torah dedicated to making Jewish practice distinct from the practice of local & neighboring tribes -- raising pillars in high places (I think this refers to worship of Asherah) and sacrificing children to Moloch being two of 'em. And by "making distinct" I mean these are things the Jews would start doing until God sent a good judge/king/prophet to set them straight and make them stop. Until they start up again... and again....

More on Moloch here. Key bit: According to some sources, the Moloch in the Old Testament is not a god, but a specific form of sacrifice. (That is, feeding children to a statue of a sun god with a big fire in his belly.)
 
 
Stone Mirror
15:01 / 07.05.07
Once upon a time (when we all lived in The Forest, and no one lived anywhere else), the Powers walked with people, and even as people. This was before we all got much too smart for our own good, and learned so much that we forgot what we knew. The Powers could even be enticed, under certain circumstances and at certain times, to become particular people.

And then we ate ‘em.


(More...)
 
 
grant
15:04 / 07.05.07
Also, whether the fire was consuming living children or merely sanctifying the stillborn fetuses is a matter of some debate.
 
 
alphito
15:05 / 07.05.07
In addition to the many points stated above, I've often had two intuitions regarding the ancient logic of the subject:

that it may have once been a newly agricultural/pastoral society's proffered replacement for that percentage once killed during the rigors of the Hunt as Nature's due(thinking ginormous extinct beasties and stone tools here);

and that, alternately, in a culture/religion containing shamanism, serious ancestor work, and an elaborate occult technology, it could have been a certain drastic kind of road, for a very specific purpose, to the Otherworld, the gods, and beyond.

I would think that any Underworld or 'plant poison' work today might be an echo of the sense of the latter, and that any food/goods offering would connect to the former.
 
 
Quantum
16:54 / 07.05.07
not to say that it is generally encouraged to grab your neighbor's goat for a sacrifice, but only that it might still be considered a sacrifice

But a goat is considered property, whether it's mine or my neighbours. The condemned criminals and such also considered to be owned by the sacrificers, kinda.
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:59 / 07.05.07
Jesus is the obvious example of human sacrifice and the transformation of human spirit and body that self sacrifice brings.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
22:52 / 07.05.07
I think that from a purely practical point of view, human sacrifice can be a good thing in the sense of thinning out the numbers in times of hardship; if the crops arn't growing than another person isn't another worker who can earn their keep, but another mouth to feed, meaning less food for everyone else.

From a magical point of view, I think that human sacrifice is like many forms of magic; you generate an energy in order to direct it towards desire, so that when the energy returns those desires will be fulfilled. A great deal of magic seems to be appealing to higher powers so that 'mummy and daddy will buy me a lolly-pop if I'm good'; in the case of human sacrifice, those higher powers are believed to think this to be a good thing. Working out why they might think it's a good thing is the real question though; perhaps it's little more than a wake up call to say "pay attention, we need you" or perhaps it's meant to say "this is how much we value your help", or perhaps something else entirely.

An interesting analysis of Cain and Abel - Genesis 4:3-5 states that whilst God may have rejected Cains offer because he did not offer a blood sacrifice in attonement for original sin, it may have also have been because God saw that Cain was without faith and just going through the motions; he was wicked, and so did not deserve a blessing. Perhaps the act of human sacrifice isn't because God/s actually have much desire for the sacrifice itself, but for the faith of their worshippers to be so great that they'd be willing to do such a thing? Perhaps it's because the soul that arrives knows just what the society it comes from is like, and whether or not that society deserves a blessing?
 
 
*
01:29 / 08.05.07
The thing I note about a lot of the sacrifices made to Odin is that many of those unfortunate men and women were going to die for some other reason. The sacrifice aspect seems to have consisted of their deaths being specifically dedicated to Odin.

That's interesting, TTS; somehow I'd gotten the idea that the man-blót was a marginal practice among ancient heathens, viewed ambivalently at best by mainstream worshippers. But maybe that was subsequent propaganda to try to sweeten heathens for the palates of "an it harm none" Wiccans.

I think that from a purely practical point of view, human sacrifice can be a good thing in the sense of thinning out the numbers in times of hardship; if the crops arn't growing than another person isn't another worker who can earn their keep, but another mouth to feed, meaning less food for everyone else.

Do you know if it's worked out that way, practically speaking? I'm not a south american scholar, but I have heard that although archaeologists conjectured this about the Aztec sacrificial practice, it wasn't actually effective that way. I can't remember where I hear this, though, so any evidence either way would be helpful.

A great deal of magic seems to be appealing to higher powers so that 'mummy and daddy will buy me a lolly-pop if I'm good'

There's a basic belief common to everyone I've met that we would like good things to happen to good people and bad things to happen only to people who do bad things. Generally speaking I think ethical and religious systems tend to be a little more complex. In ancient Greek religion, sometimes sacrifice is a good thing and sometimes it's not and leads to disaster. Certainly a sort of trade seems to have sometimes been the motive; there it's not "mommy and daddy will reward me for being good" but "I'll scratch your back if you'll scratch mine," a sort of trade between partners—who are unequal, but at least within sight of one another. Thus Chryses in the Iliad:

"Hear me, Apollo of the silvery bow
who strides 'round Chryse and sacred Cilla—
powerful lord of Tenedos—Smintheus, god of the plague!
If I ever roofed up for you a pleasing shrine,
or ever burned the long rich bones of oxen and goats
on your holy altar, now bring my prayer to pass.
Repay the Danaans in arrows for my sorrows!"

It's less "haven't I been good and can't I have candy please?" than "I've rendered you service; now render me service in return."
There's been a lot written about the common theme of an animal sacrifice being by providence substituted for a human one; it's pretty prevalent in Greek myth and literature, and reminds one eerily of the Abraham and Isaac story.

An interesting analysis of Cain and Abel - Genesis 4:3-5 states that whilst God may have rejected Cains offer because he did not offer a blood sacrifice in attonement for original sin, it may have also have been because God saw that Cain was without faith and just going through the motions

I've always found that passage complicated and interesting, not least because while both of those interpretations are possible and valid, I also read it as part of a strain in some ancient societies of devaluing agriculture as compared to herding. Recently heard a paper given about the devaluing of agriculture in Homeric Greece due to the need to justify placing more emphasis on herding, which was seemingly a more impressive way to display one's wealth for the landowners. Compare the status of servants in the Odyssey—those who herd land-intensive livestock, like pigs and cattle, are high-status, while those who herd less land-intensive animals like sheep and goats are midrange, and those who grow plants are presented as the lowest of the low, despite the fact that growing grains is by far a more efficient conversion of land into food. (After a talk by David Tandy, U Tennessee, at New College of Florida, April 2007.) It's a little presumptuous of me to conjecture that something similar may be going on in ~800 BCE among the Israelites as may be going on ~800 BCE among the Doric Greeks, but it's what I've got. In this view, though, it's not so much whether G*d accepted the sacrifice or not, but that the authors/compilers of Genesis believed that G*d had not accepted the sacrifice, for one reason or another—possibly, I hypothesize, because there's some reason to consider plant farming inferior to animal husbandry.

Er. Digressing again. Sorry. Hope there's something interesting or of use in here.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
09:41 / 08.05.07
Mmm -- that story's a little tricky, though, since God ends up saying, "No, don't want him after all."

Yes, but at the point of intent, Abraham had no idea this was going to happen, which ties in with what Mako was saying about the offering itself being irrelevant other than an as a symbol of the depth of one's faith. After all, to stick with the Old Testament, if God wanted a sheep, or a cow, or a human being I'm pretty sure he could just grab one for himself. Dude parted the Red Sea, after all.
 
 
GogMickGog
10:04 / 08.05.07
As is so often the case, a dose of 'The Golden Bough' might prove illuminating. Tonnes in there about sacrifice and the beliefs behind it.
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:41 / 08.05.07
Staying in the old testament there is always this disputed incident - Jephtha

From the above ---Ancient Jewish writers interpreted it as a human sacrifice, as seen explicitly, for example, in the classical Pseudo-Philo, where the daughter sings a lament about her impending death and its necessity to fulfil Jephthah's vow. That Jephthah's daughter was indeed offered as a burnt-offering was also the common opinion amongst Fathers of the Christian Church since the Holy Spirit is said to be upon Jephthah when he made his vow. According to their interpretation Jephthah was foreshadowing the sacrifice of Jesus. Leviticus 27:16-29 is used in support of both positions. On one hand it can be argued that these items are destroyed, but the cited text also allows for ransoming and also mentions land which can not be destroyed and was traditionally turned over for temple use. Some Jewish sources claim that Jephthah may have expected an "unclean" animal such as a dog to greet him upon returning home. Alternatively, the main point of this story may be to instruct young girls as to how to behave should they ever be selected for service (verses 37-38). That is, it could be a normative tale. Whatever the case, it became a custom in Israel (perhaps only in the region of Gilead) that women should go out four days every year and lament the daughter of Jephthah. This custom is still practiced by some Gilghadic Isarlaeans during the last four days of Spring (in the month of Khordad), just before the summer solstice.---
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:33 / 08.05.07
Also occurrences of this in hinduism -Recent Sati incidence

Sati still occurs occasionally, mostly in rural areas. About 40 cases have occurred in India since independence in 1947, the majority in the Shekhawati region of Rajasthan. The last clearly documented case was that of Roop Kanwar. However there are claims that other more recent deaths have also been cases of sati.

Roop Kanwar, a childless 18-year old widow, committed sati on 4 September 1987, some allege forcibly, dressed in her red wedding dress in Rajasthan's Deorala village. Several thousand people were said to have been at the event. After her death, she was hailed as a "sati mata", meaning pure mother. The event quickly produced a public outcry in urban centres, pitting a modern Indian ideology against a traditional one. A much-publicised investigation led to the arrest of a large number of people from Deorala, said to have been present in the ceremony, or participants in it. Eventually, 11 people were charged. On January 31, 2004 a special court in Jaipur acquitted all of the 11 accused in the case, observing that the prosecution had failed to prove charges that they glorified sati.

On 18 May 2006, Vidyawati, a 35-year-old woman, allegedly committed sati by jumping into the blazing funeral pyre of her husband in Rari-Bujurg Village, Fatehpur district in the State of Uttar Pradesh.[22]

On 21 August 2006, Janakrani, a 40-year-old woman, burnt to death on the funeral pyre of her husband Prem Narayan in Sagar district.[23]

Some people in India are adherents of a set of theistic philosophies called Tantrism (not to be confused with Tantric Buddhism). Most either use animal sacrifice or symbolic effigies, but a small percent of them engage in human sacrifice:
“ After a rash of similar killings in the area — according to an unofficial tally in the English language-language Hindustan Times, there have been 25 human sacrifices in western Uttar Pradesh in the last six months alone — police have cracked down against tantriks, jailing four and forcing scores of others to close their businesses and pull their ads from newspapers and television stations. The killings and the stern official response have focused renewed attention on tantrism, an amalgam of mysticism practices that grew out of Hinduism.[24] ”

A 2006 newspaper report states:
“ Police in Khurja say dozens of sacrifices have been made over the past six months. Last month, in a village near Barha, a woman hacked her neighbour's three-year-old to death after a tantrik promised unlimited riches. In another case, a couple desperate for a son had a six-year-old kidnapped and then, as the tantrik chanted mantras [were uttered], mutilated the child. The woman completed the ritual by washing in the child's blood. "It's because of blind superstitions and rampant illiteracy that this woman sacrificed this boy," said Khurja police officer Ak Singh. "It's happened before and will happen again but there is little we can do to stop it. In most situations it's an open and shut case. It isn't difficult to elicit confessions — normally the villagers or the families of the victims do that for us" […]. According to an unofficial tally by the local newspaper, there have been 28 human sacrifices in western Uttar Pradesh in the last four months. Four tantrik priests have been jailed and scores of others forced to flee.[25] ”

From the wikipedia article on human sacrifice.
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:36 / 08.05.07
There seems to be a common scapegoat element to the notions of human sacrifice, as if the sacrifice is some form of payment, a transaction for a service rendered. Life as capital in a sense.
 
 
GogMickGog
12:58 / 08.05.07
Rene Girard has a very good essay on this, possibly 'Violence and the Sacred'. With special reference to Oedipus, he talks about the cleanliness and preparation necessary for sacrifice: the sense of the casting out of some corruption or blight upon the territory.

He makes a case for a similar attitude with executions in contemporary society: that the executioner's meticulousness is both practical and moral, so that he is himself not corrupted by the act or it's associations.
 
 
grant
13:59 / 08.05.07
Compare the status of servants in the Odyssey—those who herd land-intensive livestock, like pigs and cattle, are high-status, while those who herd less land-intensive animals like sheep and goats are midrange, and those who grow plants are presented as the lowest of the low, despite the fact that growing grains is by far a more efficient conversion of land into food.

Just to chase this tangent a little further, in Bantu culture (and I think throughout a lot of indigenous African cultures), dealing with cattle and meat is men's work, while vegetables and fieldwork is for women. It's a gendered divide. I suppose it's possible to read a human sacrifice, then, as being MAN PLUS PLUS in that sort of schema.
 
 
*
17:20 / 08.05.07
The Golden Bough should be salted liberally before consuming, due to Frazer's antiquated and colonialist views of cultures he had no direct experience with.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
01:07 / 09.05.07
Dude parted the Red Sea, after all.

Exodus 14:15-16

15 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Why are you crying out to me? Tell the Israelites to move on. 16 Raise your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea to divide the water so that the Israelites can go through the sea on dry ground.

Exodus 14:21-22

21 Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and all that night the LORD drove the sea back with a strong east wind and turned it into dry land. The waters were divided, 22 and the Israelites went through the sea on dry ground, with a wall of water on their right and on their left.



Looks like it was a team effort to me.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:55 / 10.05.07
Hmm, not so sure about that- I always took it that God was working through Moses. All Moses did really was provide an arm to hold the staff.
 
 
*
16:54 / 10.05.07
There's the Jewish belief that when Moses raised his arm, the sea didn't actually part until the first of the Israelites walked in up to his nose. It took someone else's faith—and willingness to risk death—to part the sea.
 
 
EvskiG
17:07 / 10.05.07
From the Midrash Rabbah:

Each tribe was unwilling to be the first to enter the sea. Then sprang forward Nachshon the son of Aminadav and descended first into the sea [and they all followed him]...

Why does it say, "The children of Israel went into the midst of the sea on the dry ground"? If they went into the sea, then why does it say "on the dry ground"; and if they went on the dry ground, then why does it say that they went "into the midst of the sea"? This is to teach that the sea was divided only after Israel had stepped into it and the waters had reached their noses -- only then did it become dry land.

The daughters of Israel passed through the sea holding their children with their hands; and when these cried, they would stretch out their hands and pluck an apple or a pomegranate from the sea and give it to them.

(Talmud, Sotah 37a; Midrash Rabbah)
 
 
Quantum
17:38 / 10.05.07
only then did it become dry land.

...but...before that happens it says;

the LORD drove the sea back with a strong east wind and turned it into dry land

How does that work then? If the east wind blows back the sea how do you walk up to your nose in it?
 
 
EvskiG
17:58 / 10.05.07
"The children of Israel went into the midst of the sea on the dry ground."

I think the idea in the Talmudic commentary on this verse is:

The Israelites first went into the midst of the sea -- up to their noses.

Then God sent the East Wind, which blew the sea back (without knocking the Israelites for a loop) and turned it into dry ground.

So the Israelites ended up on dry ground for most of the trip across.

Of course, this is flatly contradicted by the actual text:

21. And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and the Lord led the sea with the strong east wind all night, and He made the sea into dry land and the waters split.

22. Then the children of Israel came into the midst of the sea on dry land, and the waters were to them as a wall from their right and from their left.

But don't knock yourself out looking for logic or consistency.
 
 
grant
18:16 / 10.05.07
In the same book I mentioned yonder, Ogilvie, in the "Sacrifice" chapter, talks about the etymology -- making something holy, sacer, and handing it over to a god.

Then he drops this bit of trivia:
In primitive times the ultimate sanction which the state could use against a criminal was to declare him 'holy', which meant that he was cut off from all human intercourse and could be killed with impunity in order that the gods might enjoy their property the sooner: effectively, it was a death sentence.

He goes on to talk about the role of sacrifice as transferring vitality to the gods, helping them move around and do things. The parts of the body most filled with life -- the liver, heart, blood -- were the best sacrifices for this reason (and, he mentions, also happened to be the least edible bits).
 
  

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