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I love chavs

 
  

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STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:06 / 04.06.07
Meant to add- I agree with the rest of your post, but am just trying to point out that it's a bit of a trap to fall into to assume that because we're looking at a style in a certain way, those within it must be looking at it that way too. Not saying you're saying otherwise, mind.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
07:47 / 05.06.07
I'm not sure that the Jews-Chavs analogy works here.

No, hardly at all, but where I think we can find something relevant in the Zizek is how the hatred is directed not at any real, observed persons, but towards ideological, made-up characters with which real persons are considered to be interchangeable by Power - so to get to the bottom of the problem, it's not enough to say "you should not hate these (X people)" because the haters actually hate their own fictional version of the (X people). Zizek then says that we need to look at what these fictional characters do for the haters - why it is in the hater's interest to keep reproducing the ideology - which comes back down to the haters trying to create an "other" against which to define their "self".
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:47 / 05.06.07
On Burberry - Burberry, I believe, stopped putting its check on its clothing, precisely because of the association with "chavs". By the end of 2004 the Burberry baseball cap had been taken out of circulation and Burberry check appeared on far fewer clothes sold in the UK - in effect, it was made far harder to identify clothing as Burberry, which also made it less tempting to counterfeit. This was a conscious attempt to preserve the brand values, just as the counter-spin when the Met initiated Operation Burberry as an anti-hooligan measure in 2006.

So, that may be people moving on from a style, or a style withdrawing from a particular look. Speaking of which, I'm interested by the proposition that one could simply remove one's hoodie (which also raises the question of whether "chavs" are analogous to "hoodies") and stop being a chav, and the fact that people do not suggesting that there are benefits to having that group identity. I think this is certainly a viable line of inquiry - is this a form of self-identity, and whether or not it is what kind of benefits are conferred and why is it desirable - but I don't think it is as easy as putting on or taking off clothing. If I were to attempt to be a goth, I imagine I would make a complete pig's ear of it - I might be able to convince myself that I look like a goth, and I might be able to convince other people who were not goths that I looked like a goth, but actual goths would spot me in a minute. By the same stripe, if we are identifying [called by others and maybe selves] Chavs as a bona fide subculture, do we expect them too be able knowledgeably to represent not-Chav?
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
12:03 / 05.06.07
Do most "bona fide" subcultures have "their own" music? I'm asking because Haus mentions goth, and "goth" is also an arguably definable subgenre of music that spun off from punk (another music/subculture twinning) in the late '70s and continues to this day.

Other than Goldie Lookin' Chain -- who I find it hard to tell if they are "self-indentified chavs" celebrating it or just fronting for middle-class scorn and mocking "chavdom" -- I can't think of any music that you could call "chav."
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:19 / 05.06.07
Ah, well, that's interesting. I can't think of "chav" music, as in music that is called "goth", and listened to by goths, and played in clubs full of people who either identify as goths or as part of a subgroup of goth - darkwave punk, anyone? On t'other hand, there is music - grime, eski, like that - which may well be listened to by people whom other people call chavs. GLC... hmm. Mainly bought by students, surely?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
12:52 / 05.06.07
Do most "bona fide" subcultures have "their own" music?

Well there was the Casual movement in Britain in the Eighties, which for all it was loosely affiliated to a certain type of music (Lionel Richie, Luther Vandross and so on; basically, slick American Soul) was much more to do with an aspirational approach to football, cars and Italian clothes, in particular pastel jumpers and loafers - think Bebgie in the film of 'Trainspotting' for example, although a lot of these characters had jobs in the City. It was arguably at least partly a working/lower middle class response to Thatcherism, and also punk, which the Casuals routinely hated, and the tabloid bugbear that grew out of it, the Essex Man was, debatably anyway, one of the forefathers of the "chav". Although I do accept that "chav" and "pikey" are pretty much interchangeable in certain quarters too.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
14:03 / 05.06.07
GLC mainly are students- don't even get me started on them man...
As for 'Chav' music, the clubs 'round my way with reputations for 'Chav' clientèle tend to play commercial pop and r'n'b (linking with Granny's 'casual' culture perhaps) on 'general' nights with frequent Trance, Hard-trance and House nights. Grime, as far as I'm aware, is more popular in indie clubs, being played alongside Klaxons, Crystal Castles et al. to a mainly student audience, though I can imagine it has a pretty broad appeal. Note how hard it is to pin down 'Chav' music compared to Punk (Sex Pistols, Dammned, Dead Kennedys) and Goth (Bauhaus, The Cure, Sisters of Mercy) and how while your average Punk/Goth can look at the bands they like and see people like them singing about stuff they're interested in. This can't be said of 'Chav' music which, if I've identified it right, is mainly produced by African-American artists or largely faceless DJs and producers.

Going back to something Haus said above...

If I were to attempt to be a goth, I imagine I would make a complete pig's ear of it

Howso? In that the clothes you selected for your Goth disguise would be 'off' somehow, that you wouldn't have knowledge of Goth culture (talking about Evanescence instead of Christian Death or something), your accent or an indefinable something that Goths have but nobody else does? And, bringing it around to 'Chavs', if somebody was going undercover as a 'Chav' with a meticulously researched 'Chav' costume how might they be spotted as an impostor? What -and be specific here- would be their 'tells'?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:10 / 05.06.07
Might I ask you a) what you would seek to get from any answer to that question and b) what you think it says about your perceptions of subcultures (bona fide or otherwise)? Those seem to me to be far more interesting than the question itself.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
16:06 / 05.06.07
In terms of what I want to get from your answer: above you said I'm interested by the proposition that one could simply remove one's hoodie (more accurately any of the myriad fashion signifiers of Chavs-dom for non-Chavs and those who self-identify as Chavs, if indeed people do)... and stop being a chav and that I don't think it is as easy as putting on or taking off clothing. This, to me at least, says that there is something beyond purely visual signifiers (clothes, jewelry or lack of, hairstyle etc.) which could both a) cause somebody to be identified as a Chav by both non-Chavs and Chavs and b) be used by people who self-identify as Chavs to show others that they are part of this group (knowingly laying themselves open to both the negative aspects, ie having this social construct of 'The Chav' foisted upon oneself, and the positive, ie being part of the most prevalent subculture in one's area or, perhaps, appearing 'threatening' in order to prevent being assaulted etc.) I want to know what this X-factor (or X-factor) could be because if there is something more intrinsic to being* a member of an identity group than adopting the superficial signs of being in that group then that's going to fundamentally change my (hardly new or original) ideas about how people use signifiers (like clothes or even more abstractly preferences in music, opinions, manner of speech etc.) as 'tools' to adapt to and define their role within their social environment rather than express some deep and unchanging inner essence.

*=That's 'being' as in being part of a group to other people ('There goes a Chav/Punk/Goth/Morris Dancer') and self-identify as part of a group ('I am a Chav/Punk/Goth/Morris Dancer')
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:39 / 05.06.07
Before I answer your question, then, can I ask what your position is on identifying features? So far you started with the hoodie, you then expanded that to all items of clothing or fashion choices, and then broadened it again to include taste in music, opinions and manner of speech. How amny things do you want to include before things outside that become an "x-factor"?
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
18:05 / 05.06.07
Let's say that for the purposes of this question 'identifying features' are anything visual- clothing, jewelry, tatooing, piercing, hairstyle, make-up. Are we good to go now?
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
18:07 / 05.06.07
(sorry for the brief and probably insufficient reply- I've got to be elsewhere and I probably won't be able to read and respond to your reply until tomorrow evening.)
 
 
Alex's Grandma
18:10 / 05.06.07
I want to know what this X-factor (or X-factor) could be because if there is something more intrinsic to being* a member of an identity group than adopting the superficial signs of being in that group then that's going to fundamentally change my (hardly new or original) ideas about how people use signifiers (like clothes or even more abstractly preferences in music, opinions, manner of speech etc.) as 'tools' to adapt to and define their role within their social environment rather than express some deep and unchanging inner essence.

I suspect you're taking the piss here, but ok, I'll bite. As far as the "chav movement" goes (and I really don't think such a thing can be said to exist, although if you've got any examples of "chav" being used as a positive signifier by anyone other than Julie Burchill* I'd be interested to hear about them) isn't this a bit off the point? I guess as far "chavs" go, the X-Factors you mention are class, social background and so on; otherwise what do "they" do (shopping, watching the football, going to the pub etc) that's so different to what anybody else gets up to of a weekend? What else could be considered tribal or impenetrable about this so-called sub-culture, which as far as I can see is made up of people who'd largely just consider themselves ordinary?

But then I'm pretty sure you know all that already.

* I actually do know someone socially who self-identifies as a chav, but I think it's fair to say that he isn't someone you'd think of as representative of anything, or include in a cultural survey. A novel perhaps, but not a cultural survey. Although it would, I suppose, be great if he and la Burchill could meet.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:02 / 05.06.07
Very tired, so will come back to this, but broadly, yes. If we are just talking about physical manifestations, then there are plenty of things we can look at before we have to start thinking about the metaphysical end of x-factors - what rural savage identified as the deadness behind the eyes that marks out the chav.

He was, lest we forget, a bit odd.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
15:14 / 06.06.07
I wasn't taking the piss, but I can see when we're discussing something as silly as the notion of 'Chav'-dom how there's potential for all sorts of classist pisstakery.
You've kinda hit the nail on the head of the 'Chav' thing Granny- there's really not anything special about people are identified and who identify as 'Chavs' - they're pretty much jut regular people doing regular people stuff for their class and background- most of it (shopping, watching the football, going to the pub etc) hardly unique to one particular class, or race, or subculture or whatever. The one thing that, to a person on the street say, that identifies them as 'Chavs' is, like I said, the physical manifestations, more often than not the clothes, rather than some almost indefinable X-factor (even those nasty shark-eyes that Rural Savage seemed to think they have). Again, hardly unique as Goths or Punks- a lot of people own hoodies, trainers, track-suit bottoms, baseball caps and the like. It is as if somebody* took a look at the ordinary things young working class people were wearing and decided that this was a unique and unprecedented style just like the Mods, Teddy-boys, Punks, Goths of other times. They assigned them a name- 'Chav'- and some characteristics- the socially constructed 'Chav' that Allecto mentions above. What's interesting is that this construct has been very successful as a 'meme' (almost everybody in Britain could identify the traits and look of a stereotypical 'Chav' regardless of whether the term refers to something real in the same way that everybody could describe a Unicorn or Bigfoot) and has gone on to affect the real people it refers to- the Burberry thing for instance- and real people, knowing full-well what looking a certain way will mean to others, are choosing to use the physical manifestations of 'Chav'-dom- 'use' being the important word here.

*= Not one particular person of course, these things are far more organic than that.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:18 / 06.06.07
Just to note: Grime, as far as I'm aware, is more popular in indie clubs, being played alongside Klaxons, Crystal Castles et al. to a mainly student audience, though I can imagine it has a pretty broad appeal.

Grime is very much local London thing, which has the interesting effect of it being seen as urban - despised by Indie - in London, whilst in other parts of the country it's presented as "the Urban you can like" for Indie kids because "exotic".
 
 
miss wonderstarr
20:19 / 12.06.07
Erm am I coming really late to something, and has this been discussed elsewhere: but I was shocked today to see a TV advert for some sort of crisps, with the slogan something like... "say BLEH to CHAVS".
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
20:33 / 13.06.07
That would be Seabrook crisps- their ad just came on during CSI*. For those who haven't seen it: a thirty-something, vaguely middle class woman is on a park bench when, horror of horrors, two young gentlemen arrive in a car so tastelessly souped up it looks like a Transformer half way through changing. She notices one of the duo has his finger up his nose, eats a tasty Seabrook crisp and says 'BLEH!' to the car and its occupants and, kinda like when Black Bolt from Marvel's Inhumans speaks, the car is instantly destroyed and its occupants are rendered naked- showing that underneath the car and the clothes and nosepicking they are MEN, men like any other. Then we have to buy crisps for some reason.

*=I am hopelessly addicted.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
20:39 / 13.06.07
I really was surprised, and a bit dismayed by that ad (thanks very much for the elaboration). To me, it's not far off "Say BLEH to P*kis" in terms of its shock value ~ a really problematic word apparently being treated as fully mainstream and acceptable.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:56 / 14.06.07
And which will instantly be picked by prattling idiots in universities across the land, becuase "bleh" is random, lol.
 
  

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