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I love chavs

 
  

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jmw
16:34 / 29.04.07
Or at least I am deeply suspicious of the public moralising about them.

A spectre is haunting Europe—the spectre of chavdom. All of the powers of old Europe have entered into a holy alliance to exorcise this spectre: Archbishop of Canterbury and (drugs) Tsar, Cameronite and liberal, social democrat and Blairite think-tank.

Or, to put it more seriously, why is it that in an era when class politics has collapsed, we see the re-emergence of outright snobbery?

The notion of the "chav" strikes me as suspicious. It seems to be a zombie category for people we don't like very much and to have little actual content or meaning. Loud music that we don't like, clothes that we don't like and an anti-social behaviour that we don't approve of. In short, I smell a rat.

Many people object to the characterisation of "chavs" as working class, usually along the lines of "My father was working class and he didn't act like that, these people have no respect" etc., an argument that comes most clearly from an upwardly-mobile middle class perspective. The problem is, so-called "chavs" are most certainly working class. As are, in fact, most supposedly middle-class people. The problem lies in our understanding of the nature of social and economic class.

The middle class is almost entirely fantastic in nature—it has a social component but no economic one. Today's burgeoning middle class has little to do with the petit-bourgeois of yesterday: grocers and shopkeepers, small producers and so on. Today's middle class for the most part have jobs, something which puts them in the economic category of working class because they do not own the means of production. Ironically, the actual petit-bourgeoisie, rather well served for a long time, appears to be a little bit miffed at how it is being treated by what, in the 1960s was called "monopoly capital", hence the re-emergence of Proudhonism in the form of the likes of Jose Bové and the growing interest in small scale production, farmers' markets and the like.

A further objection to the idea of "chavs" as working class commonly raised is that "they're not poor". Perhaps not, though perhaps they are in relative terms, but arguing this means that one simply misunderstands the nature of class composition. It is a liberal conceit that working class-ness is somehow related to poverty. In fact, the economic category is much more simply quantifiable than that: do you work for yourself or for someone else.

Thus, by depriving "chavs" of their working class nature and into some category of Other, I think we're skirting awfully close to the Victorian nature of the "deserving and undeserving poor".

Considering that many people are now uncritically championing Freakonomics this perhaps isn't very surprising. A trendy gloss put on some very unpleasant theories.

Compare the notion of the "chav" with the 1980s concept of "the underclass", a transparent attempt to put a moral character on poverty.

Much of this discourse is predicated upon the disappearance of the industrial working class as a political force, especially since 1984/5—which is fair enough, I suppose, it has gone away. Nevertheless, the absence of cloth caps and the declining power of trade unionism doesn't mean that society has been fundamentally transformed and class has ceased to exist. Interestingly, many commentators are arguing that social mobility has declined since a high-water mark in the 1960s, something that could well be furthered by university top-up fees and so on.

What do you think? Am I way off? Or is there something funny going on?
 
 
sleazenation
18:27 / 29.04.07
You're not alone infinding the word 'Chav' problematic, which is why a number of people here avoid using it and critique its use when it comes up.
 
 
jmw
18:45 / 29.04.07
Sure, but am I right in thinking the term indicates a resurgence of snobbery (driven by something I'm not quite sure about the nature of) or is it less significant than that?
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
20:17 / 29.04.07
There have been quite a few threads on 'chavs' on the Barb', here and here.
 
 
Olulabelle
20:48 / 29.04.07
I don't understand this:

The middle class is almost entirely fantastic in nature—it has a social component but no economic one. Today's burgeoning middle class has little to do with the petit-bourgeois of yesterday: grocers and shopkeepers, small producers and so on. Today's middle class for the most part have jobs, something which puts them in the economic category of working class because they do not own the means of production.

I am not very good at economics and I am frequently wrong, but I thought that these days the middle-class was the economic strong-horse with all the buying power. Doesn't that make it have an economic nature?
 
 
jmw
20:54 / 29.04.07
The relative buying power of people that self-identify as middle class is very high, true. What I am arguing that their existence as an economic category is somewhat dubious. Middle class is more of a social category than an economic one because most, but by no means all, people who are labelled or label themselves middle class don't actually own anything for themselves (other than a house, usually mortgaged) and are employees, not employers.

Economic classes are not defined by consumption but by their relationship with capital.

Likewise, the so-called underclass is a bit of a myth too being more of a moral category rather than one with any economic meaning.

Thanks for the links. Will read them now.
 
 
Olulabelle
21:25 / 29.04.07
I don't know. I think a great deal of people who self identify as middle class are also self employed. Freelance people, jobs like that. Middle England is made up of little businesses now.
 
 
nighthawk
05:44 / 30.04.07
The relative buying power of people that self-identify as middle class is very high, true. What I am arguing that their existence as an economic category is somewhat dubious. Middle class is more of a social category than an economic one because most, but by no means all, people who are labelled or label themselves middle class don't actually own anything for themselves (other than a house, usually mortgaged) and are employees, not employers.

'Middle class' is a perfectly legitimate economic category if well-defined. Are you saying that its not a very useful category politically, in terms of where people's interests lie? I think that's probably true, and I also think that a class-based politics is pretty fundamental. The problem is coming up with an analysis that is adequate to contemporary society. Most people I know settle on a two-class analysis, but it seems to miss a lot out - for example, even if we get rid of the idea of a middle class,there are certainly managerial and professional classes who, while they don't own anything for themselves, exercise a large amount of control over how and where capital is deployed; and these days that's often much more important than owning stuff, in terms of how one makes money and where one's long and short term interests lie. I'm not sure 'owning the means of production' is as useful an indicator in trying to understand contemporary capitalism as it was in the C19th.

Then again, I suppose it depends what you want from a class analysis?
 
 
jmw
07:17 / 30.04.07
Going a bit off topic here and I have to be quick because I want to get back to work.

I can't quite find the statistics I'm looking for but self-emplyment is oft overstated, accounting in 2006 for just over 13 per cent of work: http://www.freelanceuk.com/news/1743.shtml. It's more common between the ages of 50 and 65 (20 per cent): http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1266

It's also worth considering the nature of self employment. A freelance journalist writing for magazines and newspapers or doing shifts is not his or her own master and has more in common with a temp than they would likely admit (superstars aside, of course). A taxi driver, on the other hand, can pretty much do whatever he or she likes so long as they work enough to meet their basic needs and not answerable to anyone for long periods.

Nighthawk, good point about managers. Still, it does seem to me to avoid the question of productive property (land, buildings, machinery, factories, shops, etc.) and that this is inherently unequally distributed. Also, there are managers and there are managers and the kind you are referring to are much more plugged into the business side of things than most who remain paid wage-labourers even if their labour is entirely intangible and well remunerated.

Similarly I am deliberately ignoring stock ownership (the means of production?) among non-capitalists for the sake of clarity in the model.

Professions are funny things. A doctor is freer than most people and yet talk to any and they will complain about burdensome regulation and paperwork.

We're drifting off topic here but what I mean is that I think it's undeniable that what we call "class politics" is off the radar and yet it strikes me that all manner of micro-classes and categories are being created, some voluntary: "I am middle class", some involuntary: "He is a chav," and that their defining characteristic seems to be one of moral worth.
 
 
bunnyoku
12:44 / 30.04.07
plenty of people use chav round me but it has nothing to do with class of people. is that where it came from, or is that what people that spend as much time as possible in righteous indignation mode turned it into?
 
 
nighthawk
13:01 / 30.04.07
plenty of people use chav round me but it has nothing to do with class of people.

What does it have to do with?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:10 / 30.04.07
Tell you what, Bunnyoku - why not pop off and read the previous discussions, linked to above? They will give you a better idea of the kind of space discussions on Barbelith occupy, and the way you might most profitably interact with that space. If your question remains unanswered, you might at least discover some useful ways to ask it.

To address the first part of your question: nobody is entirely clear on where the term "chav" came from. The most credible explanation I have heard - in particular, because it does not involve a set of initials, which etymologies are almost always reverse-engineered - is that it comes from the Roma stem "chavv-", meaning a boy or girl (chavvo/chavva, I think). The logical inference there seems to be that chavs, as they are presented - ugly clothing, petty criminality and lack of social graces - are, in effect, white people who are behaving like gypsies, another handy set of others.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
13:41 / 01.05.07
Note also that 'chav' is used interchangably with 'pikey', also a word for travelers, though generally Irish rather than Romany. There are of course dozens of regional terms for the same group that don't have racist connotations: 'townie', 'ned', 'kev', 'scally' etc.
 
 
jmw
06:48 / 02.05.07
Interesting. The typical Irish word for 'chav' is 'knacker', which has a fairly obvious intention and etymology.

That said, there is no connection between gypsies/Roma and travellers. The travellers are the descendants of people that were dispossessed during the Irish famine. I'm not sure I buy the explanation of it deriving from Roma, though it's certainly possible. I was told it was something 'average'. xxAV?

I don't think it's in doubt, however, that prejudice is usually the central issue. The Belfast specific word for working class females is 'millie', dating back to the town's linen industry.

Does anyone when the term 'chav' first appeared? Does it have a long history or did it, as it seems to me (perhaps wrongly), get promulgated overnight due to the internet etc.?
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
08:00 / 02.05.07
Personally, I don't remember hearing the specific term 'chav' before 2002-2003, though terms referring to the same people were around long before then- 'townie' being the one I most remember from my yoof.

Question for the board: Do you think the term 'chav'/'townie'/'ned' etc. refers to a socioeconomic class (in the same way as 'working class', 'petit bourgeoisie' etc.) or a subculture (like 'goth', 'skater' etc.)?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:08 / 02.05.07
I was told it was something 'average'. xxAV?

Cheltenham or Chatham average, yes. As I say, etymologies based on intials almost always reverse-engineered.

In this case, one could look at the Newcastle/Tyneside slang "charver", which seems to be a parallel or intermediate evolution, which has a longer pedigree than "chav".
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:59 / 02.05.07
Question for the board: Do you think the term 'chav'/'townie'/'ned' etc. refers to a socioeconomic class (in the same way as 'working class', 'petit bourgeoisie' etc.) or a subculture (like 'goth', 'skater' etc.)?

Both. Unfortunately. Which means that when the skaters and goths go to college, what had been a merry war between yoof cults suddenly becomes social snobbery...or rather, such snobbery slips in on greased rails because the hateful language is already there, and because "They're in the OTHER GANG!" is an easier concept for a 16-year-old to deal with than anything in economics.
 
 
bunnyoku
17:55 / 02.05.07
yes allecto, that was what i was on about, although in my rushed about way, it apparently came across as more of an insult to everyone on barbelith, not my intent but such are the perils of internet message boards.


Tann Vennegoor of Hauserlink -- popped off to them and found it answered my question perfectly, thankyou

what i was trying to say is that chav means a lot of different things to different people, classes and regions. A chav, in college seems to refer to someone who wears the baseball cap and disagrees with the goths/emos/anyone not them or appearing weaker than them. This loathsome description is the one i first heard about and (upon reading this board) seems to be the most far removed from reality. The question was trying to make the point of how many different people the word "chav" might encompass while at the same time asking which one you guys were going with.

thank you for tolerant understanding and not turning my error into a flame war
 
 
lord henry strikes back
19:19 / 02.05.07
If I can go back to the economic class issue above (just for a moment) I think the problem with mapping the proletariat/borguise dynamic onto present society is as follows:

In the classical Marxist analysis the proletariat had nothing to sell but their labour. They were interchangeable worker units and as such had little or no power. If they tried to push for anything more than their current lot they could always be replaced. Modern professionals (doctors, lawyers, etc), while having no more access to the means of production than a factory line worker, do possess a set or rarefied and saleable skills over and above their raw labour. This gives them more choices in terms of employment, makes them harder to replace, and so gifts them a greater voice in the market place.

To come back to the point of this thread, I agree that 'chav' is primerally an othering term. Much like the more modern term 'hoodie' it is a lose and lazy grouping of 'those who are not us'. No-one who reads the Daily Mail (I realise that these terms are used widely, but the DM is an easy short hand, much like chav) is a chav or a hoodie. These are groups outside of the DM, forever excluded from it's right minded world view and to be pitied or feared or helped depending on the context. Chav, in my opinion, is a socio-political concept that is deliberately vague to enhance it's usefulness and forever changing as contemporary need require. The only constant is "I'm not a chav, you're not a chav, they're chavs".
 
 
All Acting Regiment
16:16 / 03.05.07
I'm sure similar terms have always existed - both youth culture terms and social snobbery terms. There were "mods and rockers", I suppose, and "skinheads and punks", and there are phrases such as "the great unwashed" or indeed, when said in a certain way, "the working classes".

I think the huge problem today is that the two sets of othering terms (youth terms which are problematic but probably a normal part of growing up, and class snobbery terms which are much more pernicious) are getting conflated.

The economic status quo is, through the media, using youth talk to youth and anyone in the 15-25 bracket (at least) to hide the machinery of capitalism* - "Hey college kids, those people over there aren't troubled/troublesome because they're poor, but because they're evil! Just evil! They're just an essentially evil kind of person!", or, frequently, "Look at them! How stupid! They think they're black!", and worse.



*I'm not trying to make a sheeple argument, you don't have to be stupid, or unpleasant, to get taken in by that.
 
 
Mooot
06:11 / 25.05.07
'The Chav' is the most prolific and successful Anglo-American subcultural archetype of the last decade.

It really is; crucially, it's a melting pot between British bad taste, the semantic and ideological influx of crass American images/media representations and the very understandable need to find solace in a speech community/gang/subculture.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:03 / 25.05.07
Would you care to unpack that a bit, Maaat, possibly giving some indication that you've read at least this thread if not the others linked to near the top? How do you counter the frequent* claim that the term "chav" is a class-based slur?

*Because true.
 
 
Mooot
09:30 / 25.05.07
I wouldn't counter it, it's a widely used and publicised epiphet that people use to single people/groups out. Frankly, it's a dead topic based on equally snobbish ideals for how young people are to behave and act.

My point is that in pure aesthetic/youth culture terms, the chav is a success. A good proportion of British youth self-identify with this standard of lifestyle. It has had a sizeable influence on the acceptance of multiculturalism in the UK and it's a phenomenon that, as Allecto Regina points out, is very much a part of British social history.

The differences between Mods, Rockers, Chavs, Goths and Emos are minimal in terms of self-expression if you discount what they actually look like or want to think. I fear that it's actually prejudice towards low-class American culture and ideals of easily-accessed wealth (sports wear, jewellrey, particular naming conventions) that is really driving the popular condemnation of it.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:04 / 25.05.07
Right. I think what confused me is that your previous post used the terms "bad taste" and "crass" (not to mention "gang", but I'm willing to allow that that word has more than one connotation). Are you saying that these were short-hand for "considered to be bad taste and crass as a result of prejudice"?

I'd be interested in hearing more about how you think It has had a sizeable influence on the acceptance of multiculturalism in the UK - I think there are probably some people so scared and/or contemptuous of the young urban white working class that they would call any of them who, say, listened to rap music or attended grime parties "chavs", but I'm not sure it follows that therefore those people are "chavs" and that there is a "chav" culture that has done positive things in terms of racial integration etc.

I still have yet to see any substantial evidence that any number of people self-identify as, let alone aspire to be, "chavs" - one or two minor celebrities talking out they neck does not a genuine subculture make. My own experience of people who are very much into the signifiers you see as being part of the "chav" subculture is that rather than seeing themselves as "chavs", they in turn displace the term onto those people whom they see as having bad taste, as being somehow lower (poorer, less smart, less classy) than them.
 
 
Quantum
11:32 / 25.05.07
the chav is a success

What? I don't understand what you mean, unless you're calling a group of people 'chavs' and then saying they're successful?


Meanwhile in local news, the Mosquito has been banned in my town, due to safety fears but is still in use nationally.

"The device, also dubbed the "chavbuster", is designed to send young people scarpering by emitting a sound only people under 20 can hear."

So, in this instance chav means person-under-20 who hangs about town centres bored probably in a hoody and grown ups are lamenting the chavbuster's passing, because they're a plague on nice middle class folk who are scared of teh yoof.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:48 / 25.05.07
this standard of lifestyle

Um, you're saying there's a single "standard" of lifestyle for every kid who listens to music X/wears X clothes/goes to X clubs? That they go out and choose ("self identify with") this of their own accord? Not sure I'm happy with that, to be honest.

One of the major problems with the way these kids get misrepresented is it's assumed in the scum press that if you like hip-hop and wear street gear, you must also be into actual crime, benefit scams, smack, etc - a certain "standard of lifestyle" that it's apparently possible to locate these kids in just because they wear cool clothes...
 
 
Mooot
17:56 / 25.05.07
What? I don't understand what you mean, unless you're calling a group of people 'chavs' and then saying they're successful?

If you read my initial claim in the first post: I'm not talking about how successful individuals have been in their exploits and lives. I'm saying that the style/identity/archetype/trill-ness of the chav is, firstly, prolific enough to warrant wide media coverage and cultural commentary in real-life discourse and corpus throughout the land. And secondly, it's one with such potency to have society question the values of what it means to be a young person (if you were to compare the very middle class contstruction of a teenager in the 1950's, for example).

Nor did I give any opinion on the standards of lifestyle that young people should have. Call it amoral if you like, but I my point is that is a valid social identity, coupled with being a class slur.
 
 
Quantum
10:24 / 26.05.07
It's a valid social identity? I'm confused as to how that works if people aren't willing to ID as chav, because it's a slur. You could say 'wanker' is a valid social identity, but nobody is going to identify as that are they? It's a descriptor we apply to other people.
 
 
Quantum
10:26 / 26.05.07
...or a better example, 'posh git' as a class slur equivalent to chav. Valid social identity?
 
 
Mooot
10:25 / 03.06.07
Identity is a much bigger fish to fry than class, geography, or economics. I don't have enough ethnographic data to suggest anything concrete (this really should be done soon) but you can't deny it's prevalence in modern day popular corpus. Also, some decent work on the Scally/Pikey epiphet here: http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article2600486.ece
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:52 / 03.06.07
You could say that people, who do not identify as such, consider there to be a real social identity called "Chav", or consider there to be real people who are Chavs.

In the same way that people in 1665, who did not identify as such, beleived there to be a real social identity called "Witch", or considered there to be real people who were Witches.

In, I think, "The sublime Object of Ideology", Zizek talks about how the German antisemitism was more complex than just "hating Jews" - it's also about constructing the idea of this "Jew" character which has little or nothing to do with any actual Jew. Now in that case there is not only a) the ideological figure of "the Jew", which is beleived in/appears in the corpus, but which nobody self-identifies as, but also b) the real Jewish people who self-identify as "Jew". Which means that the made-up ideological entity and the actual human being share a name.

Now could you prove that the same thing happens with "Chav", Maat? That is, that not only is it an othering term, but also something people self-identify as to the same degree to which they are identified as it by others, i.e. that everyone who gets called a Chav also calls themself a Chav?
 
 
Mooot
13:38 / 03.06.07
I'm not one, so my musings are flawed. I can't deny that. But I have been stabbed by two of them, in my past (I grew up in Middlesbrough), and in my experience, what defines the chav is a fractured mixture of teenage bravado and easily accessible wealth signifiers. I'm not happy with it being solely a lazy slur, or a weird slogan,

There is lots to be said about the relationship between in-group and out-group psychology and how language is used in these situations. Certainly in the case of 'The Jew' discourse you mentioned.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:17 / 03.06.07
Maybe if you go and read the thread linked to upthread, Maat - a form of your position - that one can understand a group by having been attacked by people whom one believes fit into it - has already been advanced by, I think, two people there, and it might save some time to go through those.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
13:37 / 04.06.07
I'm not sure that the Jews-Chavs analogy works here. As far as I can tell identifying somebody as a 'Chav' often comes down to one thing: the clothes they wear (which is why the various teenage clothing-cults, goths and skaters etc. are often mentioned in the same breath). When a person stops wearing those clothes they cease to be identified as a 'Chav' and lose both the negative and positive aspects of this identification. The same cannot be said for Jews in pre-WW2 Europe (or any minority anywhere in fact)- the Nazis (the group who constructed the ideological figure of 'The Jew', analogous to Daily Mail readers and the like here) went out of their way to make sure that the real-life physical persons couldn't opt out of the designation 'Jew'- placing them in Ghettos, forcing them to wear arm-bands, creating a psuedo-science of race and ancestry so that Jews and Aryans could be easily separated. This was all made official so, for example, if a person had one grand-parent who was Jewish they would be recorded in government documents as a Jew and, in the eyes of the German volk, could be identified as a Jew and subject to all that entails. Unless a person changed their name, forged documents etc. the designation 'Jew' was inescapable because, to both the Nazi authorities and the Jews themselves, it was something much deeper than a costume that could be worn or discarded. Is the same really true of 'Chavs'? I don't think so.
We have, in this country, an ideological construct of a 'chav' that is just as pervasive as the image of the 'Jew' in Nazi Germany (though obviously many orders of magnitude less harmful and with the flow of inter-group violence inverted). However, if a person opts out of this construct- simply by changing one's clothes- there's no government body that'll measure your head and trace your ancestry and force you back into a hoodie when they find that your grandmother was working class. The fact that even when there are so many disadvantages from dressing in the 'Chav' (or 'Goth', or 'Punk') style (unwanted police attention, people assuming you are violent/thick/misogynistic etc.) and yet people still do* means that for some people there is an advantage to dressing in this style that trumps the numerous disadvantages. Since I've been going on long enough I'll leave it to the next 'lither to suggest what that could be.

*=Though I should note that the 'Chav' style is evolving- Burberry has almost disappeared, at least in the parts of Britain I've been to, meaning that people who once wore it now choose not to- perhaps to avoid the social stigma around it?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:47 / 04.06.07
Burberry has almost disappeared, at least in the parts of Britain I've been to, meaning that people who once wore it now choose not to- perhaps to avoid the social stigma around it?

More likely because even withn subcultures, fashions, no matter what the stigma or class/political connotations around them, tend to evolve and change. People, I'd imagine, in the main tend to wear what they personally think to be good, or cool, or comfortable. That's not going to change in this case just because the style has become something of a tabloid folk devil.
 
  

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