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Catholicism

 
  

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EmberLeo
20:07 / 10.09.07
I believe my job will be here tomorrow because it's reliably been here for years and I have no reason to believe otherwise.

(which the Catholic Church expressly says must be taken on faith): for example, that Jesus is the only begotten son of God the Father, and that his essence is the essence of the Father.


Huh. Well, I find it evident in everyday life that Jesus is NOT the Only Son of God, because I experience daily that everyone is. But I suppose the reverse is not as repeatative...

Remarkably enough, I don't think that's always the case.

Granted. For all my citing it, I definitely don't think my experience encompases all cases.

--Ember--
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:03 / 11.09.07
I think what i actually mean by faith is power. I think i mean the same thing when i say will as well. (i may be wrong in certain philosophical contexts but i think that is what i mean.) I think that that power for me is rooted in my passions, my lust, my desire the whole of my body and environment yearning or loving or enflamed.

I kind of realize that does not have much to do with the traditional notion of religious faith, and more to do with a sense of empowerment.

Perhaps for me, it will be more promising to look at what empowers and what leads to a sense of dis empowerment so it may be discarded or re visioned.
 
 
EvskiG
12:08 / 11.09.07
I think what i actually mean by faith is power. I think i mean the same thing when i say will as well.

"I don't know what you mean by 'glory'," Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't -- till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!'"

"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master -- that's all."
 
 
grant
15:38 / 11.09.07
"Faith" is used in two contrary senses - one is "a strongly held belief," which is generally strongly held because based on evidence, and the other is "belief held in absence of proof," which is the religious sense.

Here, check out the Catholic Encyclopedia entry. Starts by defining the word as a translation of the Hebrew word for "steadfastness," combining senses of "belief" and "trust."

It's a very long article - here's a bit from about a third of the way down:

An angel understands truths which are beyond man's comprehension; if then a man were called upon to assent to a truth beyond the ken of the human intellect, but within the grasp of the angelic intellect, he would require for the time being something more than his natural light of reason, he would require what we may call "the angelic light". If, now, the same man were called upon to assent to a truth beyond the grasp of both men and angels, he would clearly need a still higher light, and this light we term "the light of faith" -- a light, because it enables him to assent to those supernatural truths, and the light of faith because it does not so illumine those truths as to make them no longer obscure, for faith must ever be "the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not" (Hebrews 11:1).

snip

...[F]aith is essentially an act of assent, and just as assent to a series of deductive or inductive reasonings, or to intuition of first principles, would be impossible without the light of reason, so, too assent to a supernatural truth would be inconceivable without a supernatural strengthening of the natural light. "Quid est enim fides nisi credere quod non vides?" (i.e. what is faith but belief in that which thou seest not?) asks St. Augustine; but he also says: "Faith has its eyes by which it in some sort sees that to be true which it does not yet see- and by which, too, it most surely sees that it does not see what it believes."
 
 
EvskiG
16:27 / 11.09.07
It's always interesting to see how organized religions try to justify belief in things that not only ARE not supported by evidence, but by their nature CANNOT be supported by evidence.

It's possible that there are truths beyond human comprehension. It's also possible that some things that some religions CLAIM are beyond human comprehension simply don't make sense, or are flatly false, and that the only way to justify belief in them is to appeal to an unprovable "supernatural truth."
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:57 / 11.09.07
Which is to be the master..... Interesting the dialogue suggests to me that Humpty is talking about the root word that all words become by reducing all words to mean one thing, but another suggestion appears in that it may also be a way to create mastery of Alice. Also it suggests whom is to be the master the human or the words that are spoken.

Lots going on their. I am more likely to go with the first, but i wonder what you make of it.
 
 
grant
17:02 / 11.09.07
It's always interesting to see how organized religions try to justify belief in things that not only ARE not supported by evidence, but by their nature CANNOT be supported by evidence.

That's basically the point of religion, I think. Unsubstantiated belief.

Doesn't go over so well in the postmodern era, but there are still benefits to it, as well as the obvious disadvantages.
 
 
Unconditional Love
17:06 / 11.09.07
I came across something that made me stop and think not so long ago, it was a simple sentence, "Different truth's for different times" It made me take into consideration the temporal nature of truth, how truth is very much a perception valid from certain positions but as those positions change so does the quality and validity of a truth.

It makes the position of knowing a much harder position to assume or at least makes knowledge and understanding temporary for the time consideration is taken and meaning is relevant.
 
 
Unconditional Love
18:11 / 11.09.07
Which is to be the master, also reminds me of the practice of mantra, a single phrase that embodies so many connotations symbols and meanings repeated so that all merges into the phrase.

Also reminds me of the rhythm of hymns that seem to be desinged in a similar fashion to emphasize certain words, and incorporate visualisation into the recognition of the words, i am thinking of the simple ones i was taught at infant school that mostly repeated words like love and jesus along with encouraging my imagination to give size quantity and location to the notions of love and jesus. Jesuses love is very wonderful for example.

But that is not a quality exclusive to hymns but most forms of song that in some context act as emotional stimulator's to identify with certain qualities and give those qualities character.
 
 
Stigma Enigma
16:47 / 12.09.07
Although I fell away from the church after my confirmation (and was quite devout before I began to lose faith...) I find now after many years I can return to the church and find solace, grace, and care, even though I once felt betrayed and mislead.

So it looks like you are going the opposite direction I did so long ago...and more power to you. My only problem was my own naivety, and now returning with a more comparative/phenomenological approach Catholic ritual has become fresh again. You never know what faith life will lead you to, I suppose.
 
 
darth daddy
01:36 / 20.09.07
Long time altar boy who needed much help, including from Barbelith, to go beyond. However, that which does not kill you makes you stronger. Which religion has more straightforward magick? (Other than Judaism?) Invoking saints and angels, reinacting murder? Great Stuff.
 
 
iconoplast
18:18 / 05.10.07
So, I have recently encountered two people involved with the Jesuits, and have in fact been hooked up with a Spiritual Advisor, whom I have not yet gotten around to calling.

That said, some of my conversations with these people about the Catholic Church have been really interesting.

When I ask, "But the Church says XXX" (i.e., no women priests, no married priests, Gays can't take communion, whatever), I'm told that I am confusing the Church with the Magisterium.

The Church (Which is some sort of embodiment of an aspect of Christ) is the people gathering together to pray. The Magsterium is the governing body - the priests, bishops, cardinals, and the pope.

Catholicism today (and in some sense also in the past) is always engaged with this internal tension - a push/pull of ideas and doctrines - the Magisterium may declare something (Priests cannot marry), but it's up to the Church to enforce it.

For example: there is a Diocese in Montana(?) where two priests are married. Because their bishop has not opened the letter from the vatican telling him that these priests have been defrocked, the priests are not considered defrocked. More importantly, because the Church - the community around them - accepts them, those priests still administer valid sacraments.

I really like this vision of Catholicism. It makes me feel like Liberation Theology may resurface in another 20 years, like we may see a Pope from south of the equator, like Catholicism isn't necessarily this force for conservatism as much as it's just an extremely old organization that reacts kind of slowly to new ideas.
 
 
grant
18:34 / 05.10.07
It makes me feel like Liberation Theology may resurface in another 20 years, like we may see a Pope from south of the equator, like Catholicism isn't necessarily this force for conservatism as much as it's just an extremely old organization that reacts kind of slowly to new ideas.

This is basically my impression, too, I think. However, I feel like I should point out:

1. I don't think Liberation Theology has necessarily gone anywhere - it's just not supported by the hierarchy. There are still plenty of radical priests doing things in Latin America & elsewhere. Came up during Benedict's visit to Brazil.

2. A pope from south of the equator seems inevitable, doesn't it? That's where most of the church is.

3. I'm not sure I see the difference between "a force for conservatism" and "an extremely old organization that reacts slowly to new ideas." Then again, I tend to read "conservatism" literally.
 
 
grant
14:21 / 30.11.07
So, Benedict just came out with a new encyclical condemning atheism as pessimism.

You can read excerpts here.

This excerpt of an excerpt seems remarkably nihilistic for a pontiff:
A world which has to create its own justice is a world without hope. No one and nothing can answer for centuries of suffering. No one and nothing can guarantee that the cynicism of power, whatever beguiling ideological mask it adopts, will cease to dominate the world.


But I'm more interested in his view of science:


Science can contribute greatly to making the world and mankind more human. Yet it can also destroy mankind and the world unless it is steered by forces that lie outside it.
...
We can free our life and the world from the poisons and contaminations that could destroy the present and the future. We can uncover the sources of creation and keep them unsullied, and in this way we can make a right use of creation, which comes to us as a gift, according to its intrinsic requirements and ultimate purpose.
 
  

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