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'Vibrations', 'Energy' etc.

 
  

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Quantum
18:08 / 02.04.07
I did some physics at school and got annoyed that people used words like 'Power' and 'Work' inexactly, but 'Energy' and 'Vibrations' were particular bugbears of mine. Thankfully I've grown out of heckling people who use them, but I'm still quite interested that such vague terms as vibes and energy have great currency in the new age movement and magical practice in general. They are probably the metaphors I hear used the most, what do they actually mean?

Obviously they're not the literal meanings- take vibes as an example;

Vibration;
1. The act of vibrating or the condition of being vibrated
2. (physics) Any periodic process, especially a rapid linear motion of a body about an equilibrium position
3. A single complete vibrating motion
4. (slang) An instictively sensed emotional aura or atmosphere; vibes


My view is that it's usually a shorthand for subconscious, difficult to vocalise feelings based on body language and verbal subtleties. In a magical context it can be very different though, meaning anything from good intent to somebody's aura. I think it became common in the 1960s hippy movement, but unfortunately it often gets literalised, and people think something is actually vibrating (although they can never say what- usually it's some sort of il-defined energy).

Energy is a mixed bag of stuff too, which I regard very similarly, although sometimes it's used as a synonym for a more clearly defined concept like prana or qi. Here's some links;
Energy; Spiritual energy
Psychological energy (motivation/agitation)
(See also Vitalism)
And here's a couple of old threads;
Energy-what does it mean?
Energy

Now, I think there's a place for the use of these terms in a magical context, for example the intensity of an experience or describing a working ('I sent hir some healing energy') but there are many, many occasions where people mistakenly take them literally or use them very inexactly.

How do you use these words? What do you think they mean? What do you think of them?
 
 
The Ghost of Tom Winter
05:24 / 03.04.07
I tend to use the word "vibe" when I get a definitive feeling about someone. If they seem like a very jolly guy I may use the terms "he had a nice jolly vibe," or if some guy seems really creepy I'll say "I just got a creepy vibe."
Sometimes it's a bias based on looks, other times the looks don't match the vibe I feel. Often times though I'm spot on in how the person is.
Vibe seems to coincide with the pingy feeling I get on occasion whether it is with people or places.

For energy I tend to use it for when I get a surge of emotion like at a concert. I may say "they had some crazy energy going on." I think this has to do with being in the moment completely, concentrating on only the now, and all around connecting with those around me.
It seems I often use the term energy when there seems to be a moment of communitas.

Usually when I express those words to people who are with me during said events they tend to agree. So it seems that, at least in my area, these are pretty well defined in terms of oral communication.
 
 
EmberLeo
06:49 / 03.04.07
Hmm, I think I use both the terms the Hippy way - which makes sense, since I learned them from my parents, who were both hippies back when.

I don't use Vibe very often, except in the "I got a bad vibe off him" kind of way, and then I acknowledge that it's slang.

Energy I use all the time, in several ways, but I'm not being vague - each of the uses of the word is pretty specific to me.

There all the scientific meanings, of course. If I say somebody "has a lot of energy", I mean they're moving around a lot, being bouncy, and otherwise acting like they are burning calories at a reasonably fast rate.

Magically, I use "Energy" to mean what I suppose is also called Ki, or Chi, but I am reluctant to call it that simply because I don't do Eastern Philosophy, for the most part. I have been taught Reiki, however, and I acknowledge that what I'm moving with that skill is, to the best of my knowledge, the same thing I'd been moving all along with the skills my parents taught me, which is the same thing we seem to be raising - in various flavors specific to the elements, gods, etc. involved - during most of the rituals I'm involved in.

--Ember--
 
 
Quantum
09:36 / 03.04.07
"I'm picking up good vibrations" - The Beach Boys (October 1966)
 
 
Unconditional Love
09:54 / 03.04.07
I think vibrations may also come from physical sensation, rushes up the spine come to mind and down the spine, someone just walked over my grave feelings. Also the obvious orgasm, can be a series of rushes up the spine and can quite literally be a vibration from the pelvis causing the whole body to shake or vibrate.

Energy is a complex one, id have to say how does it carry quality? For example if i say the energy of sekhem is fierce and fiery, yet healing. What do i mean by that and how do i quantify that sensation in my body and my consciousness.

I can say my body felt hot and infused with a quality akin to emotional rage, yet the anger/rage became a kind of healing clarity, ie the force (another misused word) burnt away the obstacles to bring a healing clarity, calm after a storm. But all these metaphors and descriptors dont come close to the actual experience that takes place in the body and consciousness, but i think they are all we have to communicate such experiences so far.

To give subjective quality to the energy at least gives it a context, but to quantify it is a different matter entirely, thou people have attempted to in relation to various forms of vital energy.
 
 
*
16:04 / 03.04.07
I got the impression that "vibes" was a term related to an auditory metaphor for social and magical interactions. i.e. "I just don't get along with this person" became "My 'energy' and this person's 'vibrate' at different 'frequencies' creating 'disharmony'" became "vibes." Also "My magical practice is incompatible with this place/thing/deity/ritual/incense/person/belief/etc." I thought that it was meant to be nonjudgmental, but "bad vibes" followed pretty quickly.
 
 
grant
19:21 / 03.04.07
I'm nearly positive the Theosophists used vibration as a metaphor, and I think wolfangel might be onto something when talking about the actual physical sensation of vibrating when in altered or heightened spiritual state.

I also think there's something to the idea of our brains & bodies and that oscillating at a specific frequency -- the Hz of our brainwaves and that. The droning buzz of sleep paralysis and ether intoxication.

But the metaphor.... Yeah, it was Theosophists... here (HPB is Helene Blavatsky) : from 1888:
Q. - It has struck me while thinking over the difference between ordinary people and an adept or even a partly developed student, that the rate of vibration of the brain molecules, as well as he coördination of those with the vibrations of the higher brain, may lie at the bottom of the difference and also might explain many other problems.

H.P.B. - So they do. They make differences and also cause many curious phenomena; and the differences among all persons are greatly due to vibrations of all kinds.

Q. - In reading the article ["Aum!"] in the PATH of April, 1886, this idea was again suggested. I open at p. 6, Vol. I.

The divine Resonance spoken of above is not the Divine Light itself. The Resonance is only the outbreathing of the first sound of the entire Aum.... It manifests itself not only as the power which stirs up and animates the particles of the universe, but also in the evolution and dissolution of man, of the animal and mineral kingdoms, and the Solar system. Among the Aryans it was represented by the planet Mercury, who has always been said to govern the intellectual faculties and to be the universal stimulator.

What of this?

H.P.B. - Mercury was always known as the god of secret wisdom. He is Hermes as well as Budha the son of Soma. Speaking of matters on the lower plane, I would call the "Divine Resonance" you read of in the PATH "vibrations" and the originator, or that which gives the impulse to every kind of phenomena in the astral plane.

Q. - The differences found in human brains and natures must, then, have their root in differences of vibration?

H.P.B. - Most assuredly so.

Q. - Speaking of mankind as a whole, is it true that all have one key or rate of vibration to which they respond?

H.P.B. - Human beings in general are like so many keys on the piano, each having its own sound, and the combination of which produces other sounds in endless variety. Like inanimate nature they have a key-note from which all the varieties of character and constitution proceed by endless changes.


I think the 20th century revision of this was to dial it down a notch to the atomic or subatomic level rather than the molecular level. The brainwave thing is possibly a 21st century version of the same move, but it still makes a certain amount of sense to me (in some ways similar to the ways "vibrations" get used in discussing this stuff).
 
 
Papess
19:47 / 03.04.07
Grant: That is more along the lines of what I am defining when i use the term "Energy" or "Vibration".

Energy is the charge, a "vibration" is an emission of that charge, which would emit at a certain rate or frequency.
 
 
EvskiG
20:55 / 03.04.07
Yes, from my limited knowledge of physics it appears that all matter and energy can in some sense be said to "vibrate" at a given rate (or at different given rates).

And yes, when one vocalizes one produces a certain kind of "vibration." And music can have certain rhythms, or include notes that vibrate at certain frequencies. And both vocalizations and music can have certain profound physical and mental effects.

And people can use "energy" as a metaphor for psychic, spiritual, or even psychological force (e.g., libido), and can use "vibration" or "vibrations" as a metaphor or metaphors for moods, attitudes, or the ways in which they interact with other people or the environment.

But are any of these three things related? And if so, what proof is there, if any?

For example, in the discussion above Blavatsky appears to be making flat statements with no substantiation of any sort (i.e., talking out of her ass).
 
 
EmberLeo
02:28 / 04.04.07
Oh, huh... I thought "Vibe" came after the popularization of Radio, along with "He's not on my wavelength" meaning "We don't communicate well". That is, I took the metaphor to be that when one is tuned in to a different channel, one gets different content.

--Ember--
 
 
grant
03:46 / 04.04.07
For example, in the discussion above Blavatsky appears to be making flat statements with no substantiation of any sort (i.e., talking out of her ass).

You gotta follow the link and read the whole interview (if it can be called an interview).

Blavatsky was big on invisible authorities that anyone can consult -- once they had entered the astral plane and gotten a card for the Akashic library.....
 
 
trouser the trouserian
08:33 / 04.04.07
The whole notion of "vibrations" I think, goes back to the eighteenth century. Like many esoteric notions, there isn't one traceable source, but there were certainly a number of hot topics in 18th century thought which make good candidates. Take for example, Franz Anton Mesmer, the founder of "animal magnetism", who in 1766 proposed the existence of an invisible, universal fluid which flows continuously throughout all things and accounts for the mutual influence between the earth, the planets, and all living things. Not a new idea of course, as you can find a similar notion in the writings of Aristotle, Paracelsus and Fludd, but Mesmer believed he was founding a new rational science. Mesmer's work influenced the nineteenth-century concept of the "luminiferous ether" which was championed by both scientists and occultists alike (albeit in slightly different ways):

The secret of the universe is the existence of horizontal waves whose varied vibrations are at the bottom of all states of consciousness. [Matter] is only that thing of inconceivable tenuity through which the various vibrations of the waves (electricity, heat, sound, light, etc.) are propagated, thus giving birth to our sensations - then thought
Oliver Lodge, 1898

Then there's Ernst Chladini (1756-1827) who did pioneering work on acoustics - his "Chaldini Plates" were metal plates covered with a thin layer of sand. The plate was vibrated by running a violin bow along the edge and the sand formed patterns. he travelled around Europe demonstrating this phenomena (he also invented an instrument called the Euphonium, made of glass rods and steel bars sounded by rubbing one's fingers up and down them) and his work was an influence on Faraday's investigations of electrical currents.

Another influence is David Hartley who in his Observations on Man (1749) suggests that all sensations are rooted in "vibrations" mediated via a subtle fluid running through the nerves.

On of the attractions for 18th & 19th century advocates of ether & vibrations was that it demonstrated the divine presence of God. William Barrett (an early founder of the SPR) believed that:

...the study of sympathetic vibrations illustrated that when the “student of nature” listened to the “sweet, though silent, music sung to him by every object of his diligent study” he bowed before “an oratorio as far above that of Handel as the works of the Creator are superior to the composition of the creature”.
 
 
Quantum
15:00 / 04.04.07
Ta Trouser- Mesmer of course is also famous for 'inventing' hypnosis, Mesmerism.

from my limited knowledge of physics it appears that all matter and energy can in some sense be said to "vibrate" at a given rate

Well. It depends. Almost all matter vibrates due to the structure of atoms, and the faster it vibrates the more energy it has (e.g. heat). If something is at absolute zero it is at rest and doesn't vibrate. Electromagnetic energy, light and such, has wavelengths and frequency etc. so it vibrates, but if you treat light as streams of photons then it becomes trickier, and it depends what you class as energy- potential energy doesn't vibrate, for example.
But I think the physics is a bit of a red herring, it seems to me it's another example of occult thought using very out of date science, cf. ether, calorific fluid etc.
 
 
EvskiG
15:02 / 04.04.07
But I think the physics is a bit of a red herring, it seems to me it's another example of occult thought using very out of date science, cf. ether, calorific fluid etc.

Yep. Faulty reasoning dressed up with crap science.
 
 
electric monk
15:25 / 04.04.07
After thinking it over, it seems that when I talk about "energy" and "vibrations", I use "energy" to refer to the combination of Will, Emotion, and Imagination and I use "vibrations" to mean the measurable effect of the "energies" that pass thru me. Inexact and more Theosophical than I had expected, but there it is. I frankly hate using them in conversation, mostly because it seems everyone has a different definition for them, but they suit me fine if I'm writing in my journal or juggling concepts in my head.

OBTW: The new aether?
 
 
Papess
15:33 / 04.04.07
Why is it that because some things in the Universe do not vibrate, it makes the terminology crap?
 
 
Quantum
16:07 / 04.04.07
When people talk about vibes they almost never mean heat or atomic energy or frequency of oscillation, they mean a subjective perception of intangible qualities like hostility.
 
 
EvskiG
16:15 / 04.04.07
Why is it that because some things in the Universe do not vibrate, it makes the terminology crap?

I didn't say the terminology is crap, I said the science is crap.

I find it problematic when a magician or mystic dresses up mystical thinking with scientific terminology but can't provide any genuine reason for the use of that terminology.

(For example, saying that quantum physics supports the idea of telepathy but not being able to explain how it does so. Or claiming that by intoning "Om" one is tuning in to the "vibrations" of the atoms of the universe.)

It makes me think that the magician or mystic is using scientific terminology only to add a glossy sheen of legitimacy to his or her dogma. Or that he or she really doesn't know what he or she is talking about.

Of course, I have no problem with someone using those sorts of terms as metaphors or shorthand. Provided everyone involved in a given conversation understands that that's how they're being used.
 
 
Papess
16:15 / 04.04.07
So, the quality of the energy emitted is usually the reference that most people are making when discussing "vibrations"? I suppose that could be said of the usage of the term "energy", but there is a correct usage, no? I am wondering, if just because these terms are used incorrectly, that they are to be discarded, or to be defined for, at least, our purposes here in the Temple.
 
 
Papess
16:16 / 04.04.07
Sorry, my last post was directed to Quantum.
 
 
Papess
16:23 / 04.04.07
Ev: Or claiming that by intoning "Om" one is tuning in to the "vibrations" of the atoms of the universe.

Where did you get that example?
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:53 / 04.04.07
If consciousness was considered to be a phenomena of a non local field that intersected with local physical energy structures, or to exist in a dimensional relation that was outside the physical laws of space time, then you could posit that consciousness has a vibration and so do words sounds dreams memories emotions and pretty much everything with a conscious existence, if consciousness exists at all, and has origins beyond a chemical electric relationship and if the brain has non local quantum properties. Warp factor vibrations, sci fi emotions.
 
 
EvskiG
17:24 / 04.04.07
Ev: Or claiming that by intoning "Om" one is tuning in to the "vibrations" of the atoms of the universe.

Where did you get that example?


Nowhere in particular -- just provided it as a hypothetical example of what I'd call sloppy mystical thinking.

If consciousness was considered to be a phenomena of a non local field that intersected with local physical energy structures, or to exist in a dimensional relation that was outside the physical laws of space time, then you could posit that consciousness has a vibration and so do words sounds dreams memories emotions and pretty much everything with a conscious existence, if consciousness exists at all, and has origins beyond a chemical electric relationship and if the brain has non local quantum properties. Warp factor vibrations, sci fi emotions.

There's another example.

Let's break that down a bit.

First, what do you mean by consciousness?

Second, what if anything is your basis for supposing that consciousness (as you define it)

(1) is a phenomena of a non local field [whatever that is] that intersects with local physical energy structures [whatever those are]?

or (2) exist[s] in a dimensional relation that was outside the physical laws of space time [whatever that is]?

then you could posit that consciousness has a vibration

You could posit all sorts of things. Why posit that consciousness has a vibration?

and so do words sounds dreams memories emotions and pretty much everything with a conscious existence . . .

I don't think it necessarily follows that if consciousness has a vibration [whatever that means] that, for example, "words sounds dreams memories [and] emotions" do as well.

and has origins beyond a chemical electric relationship and if the brain has non local quantum properties. Warp factor vibrations, sci fi emotions.

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean.

If you want to see someone who addresses this issue in a serious and methodical way, you might want to check out the writings of physicist David Bohm. Had the privilege of discussing this with him once a long time ago.
 
 
Quantum
17:38 / 04.04.07
If consciousness was considered to be a phenomena of a non local field that intersected with local physical energy structures, or to exist in a dimensional relation that was outside the physical laws of space time...

...then you would have great difficulty explaining how it has a causal connection to our bodies and why consciousness follows the laws of spacetime e.g. our thoughts occur in sequential order, we recieve images through the eyes in our own head etc.

there is a correct usage, no?

There's a) the physics usage which is very specific b) the common usage which less specific but still referring to physical system and then there's c) the new age or magical usage where we are referring to something quite different. The critical difference is you can measure physical vibrations and energy, but you'll never get a vibe-o-meter built by a physicist. They're the same words being used to reference different things, like 'ring' meaning both the-thing-on-your-finger or the-noise-of-your-phone.
 
 
Quantum
17:42 / 04.04.07
Had the privilege of discussing this with him once a long time ago.

Really?! David Cosmic Plenum Bohm, as in Bohm's law? Oooh! lucky Ev G!
 
 
Papess
17:47 / 04.04.07
They're the same words being used to reference different things, like 'ring' meaning both the-thing-on-your-finger or the-noise-of-your-phone.

That is fair enough. I suppose people have changed traditional words such as "shakti" and "qi", into euphamisms for "energy", perhaps to align the concept with Western thought.

"Vibration" is usually a word I try to keep out my magickal jargon, as it tends to remind me of dildos.
 
 
Quantum
18:08 / 04.04.07
God, the number of times I've heard someone say they had a chi blockage or somesuch when they meant indigestion or depression I cannot count. I've now given up shouting NO IT ISN'T SHUTUP YOU'RE TALKING NEW AGE SHITE, which I think shows I've grown as a person.
 
 
EmberLeo
18:51 / 04.04.07
Okay.... from what (little) I know of eastern medicine, I can see long-term depression or chronic indigestion being the result of a chi blockage, or resulting in chi blockage, but that's a -> b, not a = b.

Or do you reject any connection at all, Quantum?

--Ember--
 
 
EvskiG
18:58 / 04.04.07
I can see long-term depression or chronic indigestion being the result of a chi blockage

What IS a "chi blockage"?

Is chi, and the flow of chi through meridians in the body, a useful model or metaphor, or does it refer to some real thing like a carrot? If it's a real thing, how (if at all) do we see or measure it? If we can't see or measure it, why should we assume it's real?

Of course, it's possible to say that a person should act AS IF chi is real when doing certain exercises, treating disease, etc., and even that doing so will have certain practical benefits or effects, but (I'd argue) that's different from saying that chi is REALLY real in the same sense as a carrot.
 
 
EvskiG
18:59 / 04.04.07
(Given the subject, perhaps I should have used blood, cells, nerves, or nerve impulses as "real things" rather than a carrot.)
 
 
trouser the trouserian
19:00 / 04.04.07
It makes me think that the magician or mystic is using scientific terminology only to add a glossy sheen of legitimacy to his or her dogma. Or that he or she really doesn't know what he or she is talking about.

As anyone who knows me well will attest, I am no fan of the indiscriminate use of terms such as "vibrations" or "energy" (see this post for some earlier reservations) but having said that, I don't think magicians' use of scientific terminology is always about legitimacy - adding the authoritive "voice" of science, as it were in order to lend weight to wibblings which otherwise would be dismissed out of hand.

I've been doing a lot of reading about magic in the post-Englightenment period, and there's a good deal of evidence hat points to eighteenth-century occultists were just as keen on the science of their day as contemporary practitioners nowadays. Moreover, the distinction between science and magic was, in that period, less hard and fast. Mesmer, for example, considered himself to be a Newtonian and, by all accounts, based his theory of "animal magnetism" on Newton's writings about gravitation. Although he was declared a quack in 1784 by the French establishment, but there was a revival of interest in Mesmer's work in the 19th century and a good deal more investigation by the medical profession, and by the 1840's some surgeons & dentists were using mesmerism as a form on anaesthesia.

The writings of Ebenezer Sibly (an 18th-century doctor and freemason who wrote a couple of major works on occultism and astrology) show that he was as keen on Newton as he was on Paracelsus and strove to unite Hermetic philosophy with the emerging scientific theories of the day. Blavatsky was doing much the same thing a century later - praising scientific theories when they appeared to substantiate her hermetic and quasi-Vedic pronouncements, and sharply dismissing them when they didn't. A case in point is the legendary continent of Lemuria - first proposed by zoologist Philip Sclater in 1864 as a hypothetical land-bridge between India, Africa and Madagascor, taken up by Haeckel as a probable "birthplace" of the human race's ape-like ancestors and then taken up later by Blavatsky as the home of the "Third Root-Race" and used by her as part of her rescue of humanity from "the ignomity of simian descent".

But it's not just occultists using these models - Sir Oliver Lodge, who I referred to in my previous post, was still championing the ether/vibrations theory in the early twentieth century, as was Lord Rayleigh.

Ev - yes, Blavatsky was fond of making flat statements with not much in the way of subtantiation, but that seems to be not unusual in that period - try reading Edward Tylor or Max Muller and you'll see much the same writing style - the Victorians didn't suffer from our contemporary diffidence over making declarative statements.

Quants - I spotted someone on an e-list I'm on the other day saying. "Hmmn - that's the second time in three days someone's responded negatively to one of my posts - there must be some bad energy around." I wished for the spontaneous appearence of Haus but the negative vibrational vortexes around Yahoo obviously prevented him from subscribing.
 
 
EvskiG
19:27 / 04.04.07
I totally agree that many mystics and magicians throughout history have attempted to explain their experiences and models by using scientific terminology, and that that can be a good thing. In fact, as you suggest, plenty of real science (hard and soft) has come out of occult practices such as astrology, alchemy, meditation, etc.

Ev - yes, Blavatsky was fond of making flat statements with not much in the way of subtantiation, but that seems to be not unusual in that period - try reading Edward Tylor or Max Muller and you'll see much the same writing style - the Victorians didn't suffer from our contemporary diffidence over making declarative statements.

There's nothing inherently wrong with making flat statements without much substantiation. However, if someone does so, it's far less likely to convince me of something unusual or unlikely than if he or she does provide substantiation.
 
 
EmberLeo
19:44 / 04.04.07
What IS a "chi blockage"?

I believe within the context of things like Reiki, Chi/Ki is considered a "real thing" that exists in it's own right, rather than a metaphor for something else.

However, you've narrowed "real" down to "science can touch it", leaving everything else to metaphor. I don't think that's an accurate description of the context the concept of Chi comes from.

--Ember--
 
 
Pyewacket The Elder
21:06 / 04.04.07
For what its worth 'om' or properly AUM, is a a sound that that is produced from the back of the throat to the lips (according to Alan Watts NEway) and therefore encapsulates all possible vocal 'vibrations' - and in this instance it's fairly hard to argue that vocal cords, or guitar strings, or any mass does not resonate at certain frequencies.

Fortean Times ran a small story saying that a tiger's roar resonates at the frequency of eye-ball flesh in order to discombobulate the target....and that a cats purr resonates at the frequency of bones. The puported fact that they purr when injured as well as happy given as evidence thatthe purr performs a healing function. Hence their amazing healing ability and the myth of nine-lives.

Aphex Twin claims, less convincingly obviously, that he makes people do a brown baby in their undies simply from the deep resonance of a sound he plays...

There appears to be power in vibrations but whether that means the same thing as the supposed new age bunnies of this topic I really do not know.
 
 
EvskiG
23:39 / 04.04.07
you've narrowed "real" down to "science can touch it, leaving everything else to metaphor. "

I don't think so. I think I've narrowed "real" down to "we have some sort of proof -- other than purely subjective and anecdotal proof -- that it exists."

I'm open to proof that chi is a "thing" in the same sense as, say, blood (which has substance and mass) or nerve impulses (which, as I understand them, are observable and consist of measurable energy). I'm just not sure what that proof would be.
 
  

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