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Desire and its end — judgment, final cause, …

 
 
SMS
02:59 / 01.04.07
Desire indicates and is therefore only comprehensible by the positing of some concept. We know by experience, however, that the specific concept that the mind associates with the desire is not always accurate, insofar as the desire is not fulfilled when the idea (towards which the concept points) becomes actual. I am going to walk into the kitchen and get some Orange Milano Cookies. I’ll be right back.

Man, those are good — satisfying. But if I were to have an addiction, to alcohol, say, then I would have gone to get some beer, maybe. I’d be drinking the beer, and I might be able to convince myself that it satisfied my initial desire, but recurrence of the same desire would disprove this. That’s all the more true if alcohol made me depressed, since the fulfillment of desire cannot also at the same time be the cause of depression. A healthy desire for food is fulfilled with a healthy meal, and, although one will again experience hunger (since, after all, we humans usually need to eat every day), there is a sense in which every healthy hunger is new — not the same hunger, as though the satisfaction of the old hunger had failed, and the desire had simply returned with a vengeance.

What is most interesting is when a desire for one thing is interpreted as a desire for something else entirely. This might occur when a person is lonely and responds with online shopping, or if someone is angry with a friend and responds by excessive cleaning. Neither can truly satisfy the desire — in the first case, for good company and in the second, for reconciliation. They might distract from it. Shopping online for an hour or two may be all the time that is needed before lonliness either fades or is actually satisfied with a phone call. Cleaning might do the same, or even offer one an opportunity to organize one’s thoughts to prepare for reconciliation with a friend. But no one would say that the cleaning itself — as productive as it may be — actually fulfills the desire of which the anger is a sign, assuming, of course, that the original dispute had nothing to do with tidiness. What is clear in these cases, that is not clear in the cases of addiction, is that a the actualization of a certain idea would fulfill both of these desires. But one can actually misunderstand the meaning completely, and even fail to identify the feeling for what it is.

So we cannot make a desire comprehensible to us without some end toward which it is directed, but we may misrespresent the end to ourselves. That end is a kind of cause of the desire (a different kind of cause than the initial punch in the face that made us angry with our friend or the move to Boston which resulted in our present lonliness), but without it, we could say that, in some sense, the desire isn’t even real.

What are the dimensions of the need for humans to accurately represent desire? Is it possible for biological research to inform this judgment, or would an appeal to biology be mischaracterize the nature of the final cause we seek by returning to the realm of the efficient cause (ala the punch in the face). Would an appeal to psychology be any better or would it run the same risk? Is there a moral dimension — a duty to oneself to get it right? Is there an ontological dimension, concerning the reality of ideas, or the degree of reality in a thing (like a desire)?
 
 
Disco is My Class War
11:25 / 01.04.07
Frankly, even Freud said it more lucidly.
 
 
petunia
12:31 / 01.04.07
So we cannot make a desire comprehensible to us without some end toward which it is directed

Really? Have you tried?
 
 
SMS
19:28 / 01.04.07
Okay, I'm not trying to show off by being obscure. So I don’t understand the purpose of your post, Disco. There’s no reason to be unkind, simply because what I say is unclear. I give you my word that I did not attempt to make it unclear, and that I started the thread sincerely.

.trampetunia, it seems to be in the nature of desire that it is directed toward something. I’m trying, now, to think of what desire would be like without that, and the only thing that seems to come close is a desire for something I-know-not-what. And that’s still something.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
20:12 / 01.04.07
Hmm, how about the desire to eliminate (and this is distinct from satiate) one's desires? There is a 'something', here, but a self-erasing something.

(Aside to SMS) - I very much enjoyed your post. Dense, sure, but lucid nonetheless.
 
 
SMS
02:39 / 02.04.07
Hmmm, the desire to eliminate desire is different, but it is interesting that the tradition most well-known for this — Buddhism — doesn’t exactly treat this desire as all other desires. But what is really prescribed in Buddhism is to realize that all the ends of ordinary desire, which always lead to more dukkha, are ill-conceived, because they all take as their end something impossible. They all grasp at things as though they weren’t impermanent. In that regard, the desire for the elimination of desire is the only real desire, against which all others would be reduced for the mind that understands itself.
 
 
Proinsias
16:29 / 02.04.07
I assume that there are many different strands of Buddhist thought regarding desire. From what I understand the desire not to desire is just as much a problem as any other desire as it is aiming for something in the future and trying to achieve a goal which is getting away from the here and now aspect of Buddhism, most obvious in zen but appearing in mahayana aswell, maybe....
 
 
SMS
01:26 / 03.04.07
Oh, no, it is a problem, to the extent that it is grasping onto the idea of nirvana, but that would then fit the description I gave in the opening post, which I think was really what is under investigation. If we are a little lax with our words, though, the interest a person takes in seeking to eliminate desire, or rather, say, the ground which initiates the path toward such a state — this can be called a desire as well. But it is a desire only to the extent that it still has something as its end, even if this is paradoxical.
 
 
Charlus
04:51 / 06.04.07
Could you simplfy the question please?
 
 
Good Intentions
13:14 / 06.04.07
I am going to walk into the kitchen and get some Orange Milano Cookies. I’ll be right back.
This is the part that confuses me the most.
 
 
Good Intentions
13:59 / 06.04.07
On what grounds exactly do you distinguish between a healthy and an unhealthy desire? You realise that it's a bit strange to claim, as you do, that satisfying an unhealthy desire is no satisfaction at all (I’d be drinking the beer, and I might be able to convince myself that it satisfied my initial desire, but recurrence of the same desire would disprove this. That’s all the more true if alcohol made me depressed, since the fulfillment of desire cannot also at the same time be the cause of depression.). Wouldn't it perhaps hang together better to say that the satisfaction achieved from fulfilling healthy desires are purer (are not mingles with negative consequences) than those of unhealthy desires?
 
 
Disco is My Class War
19:26 / 06.04.07
SMS, let me explain further. I don't understand your question. The original post is so peppered with 'we' this and 'we' that. Who are you talking about? Yourself? Your ruminations might be interesting, but they have no context; they float freely in some universe where it's possible to generalise without anchoring your ideas in a reality that exists outside yourself. If you're talking about Buddhist philosophical perspectives on desire, make your ideological preoccupations transparent. Explain the historical trajectories of the ideas you invoke. Quote someone, anyone.

To explain my cryptic comment above, which was not meant to be unkind: of course desires are not transparent. A child could tell you that. Sublimation: easily the most basic psychoanalytical concept anyone understands. But who are you, or anyone, to tell us that our desire to do online shopping is representative of something 'deeper', loneliness? Or that excessive cleaning necessarily means sublimated anger? Could it be that a person merely has a cleaning fetish, that pleasure is found through scrubbing, through being on one's knees? At least Freud didn't like generalising too much. this was the point of individual analysis; everyone has a different context for each desire, and when it comes up, there is no assumption, no general rule, with which to account for it.

I, myself, seek no final cause. I want. Some things I want badly, and some things I want not so badly. Some desires can be explained; others, I would die trying to explain them. I don't truck with ontology and I don't really consider myself 'human', but I guess that's my business. If I had a copy of 1000 Plateaux lying around I would quote that bit of Deleuze and Guattari about desire being for itself.

And if there was a 'duty', a moral obligation to 'get it right' (whateer the hell 'it' means, there), in what behaviours would that consist? Do you mean people have an ethical responsibility to be transparent to themselves? Well, sure, but like that's ever gonna happen! The world is run -- capitalism, politics, sex, religion -- on the total non-transparency and utter mystification of desire. See again Deleuze and Guattari.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
19:28 / 06.04.07
Oh, and I would consider the elimination of desire to mean death. Or extreme boredom. So I wouldn't make a good Buddhist. Perhaps that's why I'm not 'getting it': too unenlightened.
 
 
Charlus
09:46 / 09.04.07
No, I think you are getting it Disco, for to eliminate any desire would ultimately end, or ask for death. We consisently desire. We can say we don't want to desire, but that in itself is a desire. The argument is circular, inmy opinion anyway.

To bring Buddhism into the picture..well, it is a belief system. Desires are personal, so what are beliefs, and how does it implicate desire?? This is what I don't understand.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
08:37 / 12.04.07
What are the dimensions of the need for humans to accurately represent desire?

Why say that humans have a need to accurately represent desire? Why not say that we have a desire to accurately represent desire? Why does this representation have to be accurate?

I think that life is all about desire, and that desire reigns supreme; I wouldn't be posting this if I didn't want to, and the need to post it in this thread only arises to satiate that initial desire. I am subject to conflicting desires, such as the desire to go for a walk and the desire to watch youtube, however as the desire to post is strongest, my actions are determined by this.

Sometimes (more that I desire to admit) I am subject to forces that influence my desires, if not outright control them; a speeding car influences my desire to get off the road as I have no desire to die (hence I need to eat, breath, etc. on a daily basis), showing that even though my actions are determined by my desires, my desires are determined by the actions of other things, who in turn have desires of their own.
 
 
SMS
02:22 / 13.04.07
I used the word "need" deliberately. Needing might be a kind of desire but it might also be a kind of imperative.

who are you, or anyone, to tell us that our desire to do online shopping is representative of something 'deeper', loneliness?

I haven’t done that. I was providing examples, obviously under the assumption that sometimes, the apparent desire to shop is in fact a misunderstanding.

Wouldn't it perhaps hang together better to say that the satisfaction achieved from fulfilling healthy desires are purer (are not mingles with negative consequences) than those of unhealthy desires?

Maybe, but I can imagine negative consequences from the fulfillment of healthy desires, as well. It isn’t just that negative consequences are had, but that something about the place where desire seems to point to fails to reciprocate back to the initial desire with real satisfaction.

I was asked to quote someone. I haven't found the quote, yet, but I’ll just express the concept: Somewhere in the 3rd Critique, Kant defines purposiveness. Purposiveness has to do with a way of comprehending an object in which the concept of the object stands at its base. That’s the kind of thing I had in the back of my mind. I also had in my mind a desire to explore this notion of final causes, and desire seemed to be a good place to start.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
12:22 / 15.04.07
Needing might be a kind of desire but it might also be a kind of imperative

Well an imperative is something that is absolutely necessary, and I'm saying that a need is something which is absolutely necessary for the fulfillment of a desire.

I can imagine negative consequences from the fulfillment of healthy desires

I think it comes down to the degree of fulfillment; not at all can lead to the displacement of desire, i.e drugs instead of sex, or adverse consequences, i.e starving to death, however excess fulfillment can lead to dependence, i.e drug additcion, or adverse consequences, i.e diabetes.

I think that a healthy desire is one that is acknowledged and controlled, and if the choice to fulfill it is made than the level of fulfillment should be reletive to the collective of desires, not just the one being fulfilled.
 
 
Good Intentions
14:51 / 15.04.07
Needing might be a kind of desire but it might also be a kind of imperative

Well an imperative is something that is absolutely necessary, and I'm saying that a need is something which is absolutely necessary for the fulfillment of a desire.

Actually, what you are describing is the definition of an imperative. Which is why one distinguishes between, say, a hypothetical imperative and a catogorical one.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
16:20 / 15.04.07
That was kind of my point... that imperatives and needs are the same thing and are subordinate to desire, and while desire can exist without them, they cannot exist without it. I wouldn't call the need for humans to accurately represent desire a categorical imperative but rather a hypothetical one, and as such it's a question of what leads to that desire to arise in the first place.
 
 
astrojax69
09:17 / 16.04.07
in the first post, sms said: since the fulfillment of desire cannot also at the same time be the cause of depression.

why not? why must desire be posited as something the body finds useful, positive, or at least non-detrimental to its well-being?

surely an addict's cravings for its substance of addiction 'desires' that thing. even in the pits of blackness, a true 'addiction' would have the subject crave the substance, desire it? i'm not sure, therefore, i follow the rest of the argument.

desire is an elusive concept, almost by definition. for once a desire is [albeit temporarily] sated, the desire vanishes. so desire must be an ethereal concept, or at least one in which the mind/brain is capable of subduing through acquiesence, or - in say the buddhist analogy - through force of will. one wonders, though, if this subduction is actually eliminating the desire or simply replacing it in the mind with a stronger force...

i imagine neuroscience will be able to map the correlates and mind strategies of desire [eventually] but i'm not so sure that this will actually be the same as understanding the psychology of desire. you ask in the summary if there is a moral dimension to desire - of course there is. desires can be strong or weak, and there is surely (potentially) some conflict between our understandings of [culturally] 'right' or 'wrong' behaviours, like a muslim and alcohol, and our capacity as a human animal to subdue the behaviour towards the desire. whether or not we are able to subdue the desire itself might be a question for neuroscience - perhaps it is an entirely non-conscious process, in which case all we have is the capacity as reasoning beings to subject our mental processes - conscious and non-conscious - to scrutiny and deliberate upon our course of actions pursuant to these mental flagrations...
 
  
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