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Grindhouse

 
  

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Dutch
21:53 / 11.04.07
Mattshepherd said:

This is warring with my strong feelings about never supporting dubbed movies, which I hate and think are a crime against actors.

----

Dubbing is horrible. Absolutely horrible. So much goes out of a movie by hearing the voices of people that do not convey the emotion of the actors. Few other things could damage the beauty and depth of any form of cultural expression more than dubbing.


Unless,: Republicans rap, which is a crime not only against culture, but all humanity.

(sorry for the threadrot)
 
 
Mug Chum
00:44 / 12.04.07
I don't know. I've seen some pretty good dubbing (mostly because it became a mildly refined industry in my country over the years). For instance, I just can't watch "The Incredibles" on the original (no matter how much Sam Jackson and "Edna" were great); I find it horrible and contrived after seeing for the first time actual GOOD acting dubbing. But yeah, even when it's top notch, on a "actual" film's still distracting and breaking (and too many "lost in translation" on too many levels).

Although for something like Grindhouse... no, please. I couldn't even imagine how that could go (although I would love a extra audio track on the dvd with a portuguese dubbing with an intentional cheap-trashy dubbing emulating what we had on the 50's-60's).

So, by the producer's reaction it's pretty much on our faces that the worldwide "separated versions" is about more profits. I wasn't pissed that Kill Bill was split at the time, but I am now after seeing both of them and how they're pretty much one film, period. I'm just rambling to say in vain that I'm very pissed.

Seriously, what's the appeal in worldwide market to a "Director X's trashy z-film" if it's not on the original "back to back" package-concept "from Tarantino & Rodriguez", their dancing-dialogue, the following of the trashy patterns, in-jokes, trailers, previews, aesthetics etc? I really don't feel like I'm exaggerating by saying it's like selling Citizen Kane's ending on another screening.
(I can't even imagine anyone here in Brazil going by the distributor's plans, seeing a "Robert Rodriguez's Planet Terror" poster alone and wanting to see it. A "Tarantino's" holds value, but the original concept would bring more appeal, people and money in the total, in my view)
 
 
Mug Chum
01:16 / 12.04.07
ps: I wasn't comparing in any way Welles with either directors. I just found it suitable to contrast that so far in my conception (haven't yet seen the films) I still think "one film" is pretty much part of "the other", being the whole point of the attraction from the trailers and the concept.
 
 
Mark Parsons
06:10 / 12.04.07
Last I heard, UK was not a market that would get the split version. Germany, yes, and other out of the way (non-EU) places. But the research I did (my job) was three weeks back so maybe I've missed new news in Variety etc.

I saw the flic at opening night @ the Chinese Theater in Hollywood. Tarantino was wandering about outside b4 the show (his first opening at the Chinese, I'm told). Some cast (a pal saw Rosario Dawson) and crew were there, Eli Roth intro-d the movie. Packed house. Everybody loved it (including me).

P TERROR was hilarious (I was worried Rodriguez would not be able to sustain it) and DEATHPROOF was great, although I really wanted to see more of Stuntman Mike (the missing reel).
 
 
Liger Null
11:03 / 12.04.07
for god sakes, can't someone tell him those dialogues are boring and only make the characters sound the same [like major video\comicstore nerds]?

Actually, those dialouges were always my favorite part of Tarantino movies, mainly because they so much mirror conversations in real life (after all, isn't that what we're doing right now?)

That being said, I agree with Denfeld that the conversations in Death Proof lacked the usual wit and fell kind of flat, at least when the women were talking about anything other than movies and music.

I also think that splitting up the movies is a total crap idea. Granted, three hours is a bit too long for some people to sit in a theater without a smoke/bathroom break. I say just throw in a ten-minute intermission and surely it will attract more people.
 
 
Mark Parsons
14:02 / 12.04.07
I liked the QT convos in Deathproof more than usual, as they did not have all the hyperkinetic Trantinosisms. They were interesting because they were "normal," for Tarantino, anyway.
 
 
John Octave
14:48 / 12.04.07
I can't help but feel partially responsible for its "disappointing" box-office take. I didn't see it last weekend because I had two Easters to go to over two days, and I can't see it during the week because I work second shift.

I'll get to see it this weekend, but if not for family and work, I probably would have seen this enough times to boost ticket sales by $2-3 million for the opening.
 
 
garyancheta
21:07 / 12.04.07
I didn't mind the dialogues in Death Proof...if only because it started to feel, in a weird way, like a Richard Linklater film. I thought it was interesting to see the movie through the eyes of that sort of movie, only to veer into WTF territory later down the line. If I didn't know it was a horror movie, I'd think it was a Richard Linklater movie.

I didn't mind the dialogue in the beginning that much. It made it more enjoyable because it felt like slacker or Dazed for a while before veering into horror.

What I thought was interesting was how Quentin Tarantino seemed to treat the beginning half of the movie of girls as "one" girl being chased by a killer and the second half had 3 girls acting as "one" girl being attacked by the killer. If we use those horror motifs, it works quite well. The first part of the movie basically has one girl who is kind of an pothead, kind of a cruel girl, kind of a drug dealer, and kind of a tease. They drive a red car. This Zeitgeist of a woman decides to go home by herself, even though she's a bit wasted, and gets attacked by the crazy stalker/killer guy.

This is mirrored later in the movie by the 3 other women who form another Zeitgeist where one of the girls is kind of smart, kind of clever, kind of courageous, and kind of virginal. They drive a white car. This Zeitgeist of a woman is clever enough to go out in broad daylight to do something potentially dangerous, but is then attacked by the crazed killer. This woman is clever and manipulates and beats the guy into submission.

I liked Deathproof more than Rodriguez's film (although I'm very curious about where he was taking the Zombie Metaphor...with mentions about Afganistan and such).

- G

PS: if you're looking for some more in-depth interviews, check out http://www.podcastdirectory.com/podcasts/4176 which has a Tarantino and a Rodriguez podcast interview.
 
 
John Octave
13:35 / 17.04.07
Some theatres in the US have them split up already and some of them don't; I had to do a bit of driving to find a "whole" screening.

All I've heard in reviews is "They're the wrong way around; Death Proof should be first because it's less exciting than Planet Terror," but I would've been let down by anything after Death Proof. Planet Terror is a good time but it pretty much just hits all the marks you expect a zombie movie to hit, like Cameron said. But I was actually edge-of-my-seat excited through Death Proof. A series of fun car chases and stunts, and a feel-good ending that had the whole theatre half laughing, half cheering.

I am, however, increasingly unsettled by Quentin Tarantino's cameo appearances. As a director who has a history of writing unexamined and problematic sexual and racial material (tickspeak), it is uncomfortable when he appears in his own (and his friend's) movies as guys like Jimmy, Mr. Brown, etc. Sure, as the would-be rapist in Planet Terror, you're supposed to hate him so that you cheer when he dies, but when man playing him mayyyyybe, possssssibly has a thing about violence against women in real life, I'm just wondering what's going on inside that head of his as he's doing the scene.

Also, I'm going to pass around the collection plate. Give what you can, and however much money we raise will be donated to Edgar Wright so that he may film "Don't."
 
 
This Sunday
14:55 / 17.04.07
There should be some sort of spiritual law about not going to see a movie called 'Grindhouse' in the theatre if you can't sit through a double feature with previews. It's like watching one of those 'Gun Crazy' flicks and complaining 'I like the fairytale about a woman part but I didn't think there'd be so much shooting.' Or wishing the theatrical release would cut all the songs out of a musical.

I dunno, maybe geeks can just sit in a chair and look at stuff longer than other people. I'm still waiting for a friend of mine to get out of the hospital, because within the first week of his release we're doing the 'True Romance' Sonny Chiba triple feature: 'Streetfighter', 'Return of the Streetfighter', and 'Sister of Streetfighter'.

Not that I don't now have a finer-detailed understanding of why there's been the trim-for-theatre habit, of late. If this works, then, yes, unfortunately, I'm going to have to be less disatisfied with the notion of knocking twenty minutes off a film's runtime for the theatrical release and putting it back on DVD.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
03:00 / 18.04.07
as of 18\4\07, according to BoxOfficeMojo:

Production Budget: $67 million

Worldwide Grosses: $20,223,232

any split release will favor Dimension.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
14:09 / 18.04.07
for the sake of the discussion, an EW article:

Pap Fiction - If director Quentin Tarantino wants to reconnect with a wide audience, he might consider putting away childish things and tackling new material worthy of his gifts.

does he? I'm kind of confortable seeing QT as a remixer [like a DJ who works with old samples], but one that usually only makes tunes that sound old anyway...
 
 
This Sunday
15:57 / 19.04.07
See, even if I agree with EW that something is bad, or I also don't like it... there's just a smugness pervading every article that's absurdly boring and pretentious.

'Not very good to begin with' is such a sweeping statement, as is referring to Sonny Chiba as kitsch. That's just insulting for anyone whose had a long-standing carreer, which Chiba has. How is he a trick-shot and Kurt Russel's a misused relaxed and fabulous actor? (I mean, I love Russel in just about every movie he's been in, but it's just rudeness on the mag's side.)

Also, EW seems to have a policy whereby they hate things, not for succeeding or failing on their own terms, not for whether or not they're interesting or unique or whatever... but whether they're easily slotted into a modern Hollywood format. This is the same mag that ragged on the Wicker Man remake, not because the remake was a bad idea, unnecessary, and horribly redevelopes a brilliant film involving Christopher Lee in drag dancing like a lovely loon... but, because Nic Cage was too good to be doing a horror film.

Because Nic Cage is too good of an actor to be...

I'm still trying to process that one.

And they're missing the fact that there is a market for this, and unfortunately, it's a market that current theatre-habits are probably keeping from bothering to see it right away. It's the market that would go see Boondock Saints or Cry Baby, Split Second, and Kitamura's Versus in a double or triple feature at a rundown, but properly conducive to enjoying the movie instead of filtering the movie through children being babysat by the screen, cellphones, and pretentious middleclass film experts telling their seat-neighbor loudly how inferior the film onscreen is to the Tom Hanks movie they saw the week before.

Even today, can you imagine seeing the original Dawn of the Dead in a proper, standardized multiplex? Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was about as Hollywood as Wuxia get (they even scored a Hollywood director), and I couldn't get through that in a theatre without people going on and on in the middle of the film, and complaining when their two year old got bored or hungry. Two Shaw Bros. flicks back to back? Shaft and Foxy Brown? When that was the only option you had, maybe. Now that we have DVD, VHS, big giant goddammed TV sets and video-projection equipment available at less than a hundred dollars?

Not that I understand the current obsession with opening weekend or even theatrical bucks in general. The real money's in the DVD release, surely.
 
 
Mark Parsons
06:40 / 20.04.07
Did anybody catch the "real" name of Deathproof that pops up on screen before the "DEATHPROOF" reel insert retitle comes on?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:18 / 20.04.07
when man playing him mayyyyybe, possssssibly has a thing about violence against women in real life, I'm just wondering what's going on inside that head of his as he's doing the scene

This, my friends, is what's known in the Stoat household as David Hess syndrome. Only with Hess, I'm fairly sure which reading to take, and it's not the nice one.
 
 
whatever
02:40 / 21.04.07
It seems like Grindhouse may have the potential to turn into one of those ongoing festival-type midnight rescreens ala Rocky Horror.

I saw this at the drive in the first night it was out. I ate popcorn, a cheeseburger, and a turkey burger. I smoked cigarettes and drank beer. My friends and I had a lovely time. Plus the movie was really really good. But I feel like it had a lot to do with the overall experience, which is what Rodriguez and Tarantino in particular have been promoting. The simulation of that atmosphere.

I think this is sort of interesting, because my mode of viewing definitely impacted my perception of the film.

So, you know, just an interesting strategy.
 
 
TimCallahan
03:10 / 21.04.07
I believe it said "Thunderbolt" before the Death Proof title came up. Is that what it said?
 
 
CameronStewart
05:02 / 21.04.07
Yes.
 
 
FinderWolf
16:43 / 23.04.07
it hasn't yet started actually being 'split up' in the US, has it?
 
 
John Octave
22:52 / 23.04.07
The theatre in my town (a Marcus Cinema) had already split it up in the second weekend, although they did run a deal by which you could buy one ticket and see both movies on a same-day-only basis. I don't know if they showed longer versions of each movie, or if they ran the trailers before and in between the movie.

In surrounding, slightly larger towns it's playing in its complete form. I'm assuming that individual theatres get to select which format they want.
 
 
FinderWolf
16:20 / 24.04.07
ok, thanks...I think it's still playing in full form in NYC...
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
01:22 / 01.05.07
There's talk here in Australia that it won't even get a theatrical release.
 
 
Quantum
00:46 / 04.05.07
You know who else has a gun for a leg? The scotsman from Samurai Jack.
 
 
Triplets
01:36 / 04.05.07
Och, aye!
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
11:35 / 04.05.07
we don't even have a release date for Brazil yet...

but news have made the rounds that we're likely to get the two split extended versions with both director's coming down here for each release.
 
 
Janean Patience
10:35 / 07.06.07
I managed to see this as the creators originally intended in a tiny, dirty theater in New York last week and I'm glad I did. Because the format works, because Planet Terror was fantastic, and because sitting through an extended European version of Death Proof would make me yearn for the sweet release of death. I hated that fucking film. And I come on here and everyone loved it? I can't understand that. Let's get into some

SPOILERS

FOR BOTH GRINDHOUSE MOVIES

Rodriguez: there's a dude who understands the grindhouse aesthetic. Or what I understand that aesthetic to be, which is something closely related to what we called video nasties here in the UK for a while. Cheap, exploitative, lurid, sex and violence very much to the fore and shot through with gross-out moments. The genre's bad taste was recreated with Cherry losing her leg and the many subsequent jokes about it before it turned her into the heroine, there was lesbian love and a hot blonde with a broke car, there was an evil doctor and medical horror and the one thing that reliably makes audiences cover their eyes, injections going in. It was knowingly kitsch in its recreation of everything that made those movies so bad and so compulsively watchable (though I would have preferred Rutger Hauer to Bruce Willis) and it did it all with such love. It worked as a joke and a grindhouse flick in one. I laughed at the conventions as I feared for the cardboard characters. And I'm totally down for seeing Machete.

Perhaps after Planet Terror Death Proof was always going to be a disappointment. It had to be different, Tarantino couldn't just have pushed the same buttons again, but as the trailers showed the genre contained lots of wildly different movies. Indeed was made up of random films which appealed to particular audiences, assembled after the fact. And I guess that, rather than going for a movie that was deliberately exploitative, QT wanted to make one that ended up there by chance because it contained elements that somehow made it grindhouse.

If that was his intention some of it worked. The dizzying shifts in tone between the end of part one and the end of part two, the wild, joyous sunlit ride of the final car chase. But these are small sections of a boring-ass film.

The very idea of girl gangs versus a crazed stuntman is grindhouse, but there was nothing grindhouse about the execution. Rodriguez's luminous colours were gone, the crackles were gone, and for what seemed like an hour but was probably half that we watched girls hang out in a car and a bar. They didn't have anything particularly interesting to say. Tarantino used to be able to get you with a conversation. The opening minutes of Pulp Fiction were electric even though it was just two people talking. You get to know Jules and Vincent through their conversations. But in this movie it was nothing but filler. Who's seeing who, who's buying the weed, all that crap about the lapdance which was dragged out excruciatingly... we didn't learn much about the characters. We weren't hearing anything interesting. It wasn't in any way grindhouse; it was late-period Tarantino, in love with his own dialogue, and it was boring.

That was Stuntman Mike's problem, too. Walking away from that bar, you'd say to your buddy "That guy was kinda creepy, don't you think?" They'd say "What, Mike? He tries to be scary. But nah, he's just a boring old fucker." The undercurrent of menace was drowned out by the methodical tedium of the character. At this point, Mike should be charming or at least intriguing, and only the audience should know he's scary. Instead he's an old man who wants everyone to be a little bit afraid of him and goes about it in a heavy-handed way. The scene where he demands a lap-dance; would anyone give him one? The scarfaced old dude's calling me chickenshit, and I need to rise to that bait?

The MISSING REEL bit that follows is a good illustration of the differences between the two films. In Planet Terror, it's a joke that gets funnier the more you think about it. We've missed a reel and all the dull characterisation is skipped out, the heavily-armed go go dancers have arrived, everyone knows who El Wray is and the survivors' hideout is in flames. Again, it shows a knife-keen understanding of the conventions of the genre and the audience's desire to just skip to the fuckin' end. In Death Proof, it's a weak joke (hah! you missed the lap-dance!) that only confuses the plot; what, everyone's cool with Mike now? What did I miss? Then there's horror, which is good though brief, but it's not surprising. Whether it's because we know grindhouse or we know Tarantino, it's not unexpected when the ladies die. It's not the seismic shock that the director seems to be expecting. Films of this genre or by this director contain sudden death, and we're not invested in the characters particularly so we don't particularly care.

Then, after almost an hour of indifferently-written girl gang chat culminating in about two minutes of action, we're introduced to another girl gang having a chat and my heart sunk. Fuck not again. Yes again. Again it's indifferently written, though this time it's more contrived. We need to know one of the girls carries a gun and another one's managed, through a chain of highly unlikely circumstance, to get herself a go on a car from a famous weird grindhouse movie. It takes an age to get to the action, to QT's mate playing Ship's Mast and Stuntman Mike back again and from there it's good if slightly odd in terms of tone. After the first half and the establishment of a realistic tone it's odd to see three girls laughing it up as they chase a homicidal driver, but I admit I kinda liked that difference in tone. I even liked the abrupt ending. But there's no excuse for making us sit through an hour or more of tedious conversation for that amount of action, especially not in a movie which purports to be grindhouse.

There's no excuse for Stuntman Mike, either. Kurt Russell is a terrible thing to waste. He should have been a malevolent presence which owned the film until his comeuppance. Instead he was a plot device and a bore with unreadable motivations.

You have to feel sorry for Rodriguez. He makes a movie with his much more famous mate and he puts his whole soul into it. He creates a trailer which encapsulates the thrills of the genre they've chosen perfectly, and a movie which elaborates on them at joyous length. Then his mate turns up with a piece of crap starring this girl he clearly fancies as herself and which hardly belongs to the genre at all. Instead it's full of his usual stuff except produced even more lazily than usual. And his mate is the one who gets to go to Cannes.
 
 
Mistoffelees
10:41 / 25.08.07
Janean Patience´s comments about Death Proof pretty much sum up my experience, too. I saw DP yesterday (and later reading about the movie on the internet discovered, this version is 40 minutes longer than the US version), and for the most part I was bored. It´s as if a has-been famous band cranks out another album that sounds like they used to ten or twenty years ago, and has nothing new to say. Maybe Tarantino should just call it a day.

And the lapdance was icky. There is no reason for her to rub herself all over this creepy loser guy, and while she dances all over him, Russell looks bored (maybe staying in character and wanting to get to his car already?).

The worst was the endless diner scene. So I am supposed to be impressed because it´s one long shot? How are these women any different than any other character in any QT movie? When they´re not driving or shooting, all they do is sit around going on about these banal topics like tips, bellies, or awkward silences. QT better think of something fresh and innovative if he wants an audience for his next movie.
 
 
Mark Parsons
23:34 / 25.08.07
I saw the US version, so did not see the lapdance/missing reel.

Totally disagree with the above assessments of Stuntman Mike. I thought he was appealing and creepy, a great role & returns to form for Russell. I was hoping for bit more of Mike in the second half of the story.
 
 
Bandini
14:18 / 11.09.07
I also agree with Janean Patience. I too, though, watched the extended version of Death Proof making the exercise in Grindhouse cinema even more meaningless. But hey, Miramax want more money right?

I truly, truly hated Death Proof and am quite angry at my self for watching it and not spending those TWO HOURS! watching something more worthwhile.

I am a fan of what has been described commonly as Grindhouse and the joy i find in these films is their ability to transcend their genre and constraints and also to do things impossible in the mainstream film world they sit on the edges of.

Death Proof was not a Grindhouse movie in any way by my understanding of the 'genre'. Tarantino's referencing self congratulating style seems to have imploded with scenes that seem to be poor facsimiles of his earlier films and he seems to not only be unable to make a film that successfully rehashes other films but he can't even rehash his own films without ending up with something truly dire.
Just witness the painful scene in the diner in the second half that feels like round two of the scene from Reservoir dogs. The difference is in the level of writing and the level of acting.

Overall i felt Death Proof failed in everything it set out to do and was so appalling and boring a watch that my girlfriend said it made her want to never watch a film ever again.
 
 
Janean Patience
20:19 / 11.09.07
Death Proof was not a Grindhouse movie in any way by my understanding of the genre.

When I attempted to see how it might fit in to the genre above I was actually conflating two different traditions, grindhouse and the midnight movie... the latter being where weirder fare that hadn't been successful on first release, like The Harder They Come, The Rocky Horror Picture Show, Electra Glide In Blue and Vanishing Point found an audience. Cult movies, in other words, which could contain sex and violence but often didn't. Films in the grindhouse genre always contained sex, exploitation, and copious gore. Tarantino's movie, therefore, has a grindhouse outline but is in no way grindhouse.

Reading what I wrote above, it seems I'm critical of girls in conversation being worthy of a movie. Not the case at all. The problem is, and I'm imperfectly recalling something someone else once said here, that this is girl talk written by a guy. What do men think women talk about when there are no men around? Men think women talk about men.
 
 
This Sunday
00:00 / 14.09.07
I can stand the films being split up, because I'm from the fake-double-feature generation, where I remember real ones from childhood but mostly it's just watching to flicks back to back at a friends or a screening room because they go together interestingly. If I had to see them back to back in a theatre, I would have paid the twelve bucks and done so.

But no fake previews? How the what now? On either disc?
 
 
PatrickMM
23:10 / 21.09.07
I saw Death Proof, the extended European cut, and really enjoyed it. I'm not sure if it's a different context, having seen it without Planet Terror, but I loved the leisurely opening part of the movie. While Pulp Fiction and Reservoir Dogs are great films, I don't think they come close to Jackie Brown and the two Kill Bills, and this movie has more in common with those latter two. Tarantino called Kill Bill a hanging out movie, you're not really worried about the plot, you just like spending time with the characters, in their world, and I think that's this film's greatest merit too.

In the opening half, we have a very specific sense of place, it's like you're sitting at that bar with them, and I thought that was a lot of fun. Yes, you could call the extended dialogue filler, but I saw that as the substance, what he really wanted to do with the film, and the car chase part was secondary. I do think the film's biggest mistake is essentially doing a remake of itself in the second half, that stuff, even the great car chase, just felt superfluous after the near flawless opening part.

As for Tarantino's issues with women, I think the very fact that he made a movie with so many showcase roles for women puts him far beyond most Hollywood directors, who only place women in the role of wife or girlfriend. Yes, he dwells on the death sequence, but I think that's more a general love of violence than anything specific with women. After all, this is a guy who's put his male characters through equally awful stuff over the course of his films. Sure, he's subjecting all the women to his filmic and feet obsessions, but that doesn't negate the fact that they are the ones who hold all the agency in the film.
 
 
CameronStewart
05:29 / 22.09.07
I've watched the Death Proof dvd twice since I bought it on Tuesday. It's one of my favourite movies of 2007.
 
 
Bandini
09:02 / 23.09.07
May I ask why?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:35 / 23.09.07
But no fake previews? How the what now? On either disc?

They're not on the DVDs? What the fuck?

It looks like we may have to wait awhile to get the fake trailers, but in the meantime, I'm gonna get me some real ones.


Anyway, to get back on topic, Death Proof's just come out over here and I have time off work as of tomorrow morning... methinks I shall finally catch the bastard this week. It's been getting VERY mixed reviews, largely bad (though most of the bad ones have said it's the extension that spoils it, and the original, shorter version worked much better)- but even the bad ones have made me ache to see it, and most of those have had a few good things to say about it. A couple have been fantastic, though.
 
  

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