BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Tracey Emin on The Bed

 
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
Ellis
20:07 / 19.08.01
Melvin Bragg: What do you trhink of the criticism that anyone could have done the bed?

Tracey Emin: Well why didnt they?

Ha!


Interesting point made in this programme (The South Bank Show)- if there is no criteria for what is considered good art, then it is all in the marketing.

[ 19-08-2001: Message edited by: Ellis ]
 
 
DaveBCooper
14:21 / 28.08.01
I think it was the Daily Telegraph who said something like "the most interesting thing about Emin's need to share so many aspects of her life with us is the way they're all so uninteresting"... I wouldn't often quote the DT, but I'm with them on this one. She's not inherently interesting, despite what she may think, and often her art isn't as a result.

Many people might have thought about doing 'the Bed', but I suspect a lot of them would then have thought "nah, maybe I'll do something that involves a bit more thought and effort" and gone on to do something else.

I think that she's hardly writing 'R MUTT' on a urinal here, and challenging preconceptions of what art is, despite what's said; it looks like fairly lazy semi-diary work a lot of the time.

Am I alone in this ? It looks like the Empress's Dirty New Bedclothes to me in terms of content, and I think Ellis' comment about the marketing side of it may well be worryingly true... which makes me wonder : is marketing art, or can it be art ? There's a question.

Not one I'll try to mull over here and now, but I'd be interested in other people's views...

DBC
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:22 / 28.08.01
One of the highlights of the South Bank Show was Emin talking about a newspaper that ran a series of photos of members of the public's beds, with commentary by their owners: Emin said how much she'd liked that, how it was in the spirit of the original. I agree.

Since I don't subscribe to a Protestant work ethic, I don't give a shit about how much "thought and effort" go into a work of art. Not that the amount of thought it takes to decide either to do Emin's bed or any other work of art is really quantifiable. All that is quantifiable is our response to it. And in terms of effort, this gets interesting: because do we assume that the contents/surroundings of the bed were strewn there without artifice? Surely not? And this in turn raises questions about our assumptions about authenticity and duplicity that strike me as both challenging and worthwhile. For starters.

Honestly. "It's just a bed." Yes, and the Mona Lisa is just a painting of some woman, and a Rothko is just some random colours... Philistines.

Typo. Corrected. Philistines!

[ 28-08-2001: Message edited by: The Flyboy ]
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
15:54 / 28.08.01
But isn't that true?!

All except the Monda Lisa. I don't know what that is...
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:39 / 28.08.01
And I'm sorry, but "why didn't they?" is hardly one of the best replies to the situation. I've just created a piece of art called 'Bin', which has some envelopes, last weeks RT and a pair of socks in. Where's my installation. 'The Bed' is not in there because it's necessarily good art, its in there because Tracy Emin did it, not Fred Bloggs. My arse to all this, art has had it's shot in the arm and now needs another shot, preferably in the head of Maurice Saatchi and all these 'Sensation' wankers.

(This is why I don't come in here that often)
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
17:24 / 28.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Jack The Bodiless:
All except the Monda Lisa. I don't know what that is...

It's my new installation piece. A modified Ford, parked outside a gallery. Enigmatic smiles are an optional extra.
 
 
Ganesh
22:43 / 28.08.01
Ungodly, I think 'why didn't they' is an extremely apposite response. If you can arrange a suitable context within which to exhibit your installation ('Bin') in a way which elicits a emotional reaction from me, then yes, I'd happily call it art too.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
10:43 / 29.08.01
But, more accurately, if Tracey Emin was in MY position, without the patronage of being one of the New Art Elite, would 'she' be able to get space and publicity for the bed and make it as big as she is?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:33 / 29.08.01
Yes, Lozt, that's right, Tracey Emin was born a fully paid-up member of the New Art Elite. The art establishment in this country being famed for their tendency to privilege lippy working-glass women from Margate.

Ahem.

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that her high profile is largely the result of the bed, and before that, the tent ('Everyone I Have Ever Slept With'), not the cause. Her drunken storming-off on that art programme may have helped, but it's largely the notoriety that's been granted her work that has led to her fame, not the other way round, surely. No one knew who she was before she did these pieces, did they?

[ 29-08-2001: Message edited by: The Flyboy ]
 
 
DaveBCooper
11:41 / 29.08.01
I like to think that 'art' (and this is where things get a bit hairy and dangerous) is something which involves a bit more than looking at your bed after you've been depressed in it, and deciding to exhibit it. That's where the effort thing comes in, as far as I'm concerned.

As the Ungodly one says, for the average person, a bed in that kind of physical state is not the sort of thing you could get exhibited. You need the reputation or contacts or whatever. And that's not art... more like marketing, or networking, or resting on your laurels, or something like that - cunning, perhaps, but that's not necessarily artistic.

Maybe this is part of the problem with so much modern art, as far as the average person is concerned; we want to feel that artists have to sweat for their craft, that it takes at least a modicum of effort - or, at least, that it LOOKS like it did. Emin's work strikes me - and I doubt I'm alone in this - as self-absorbed and lazy, and I think the nearest any of her stuff comes to art is in the performance-art element that accompanies it; she seems to believe her own hype - or, at least, does very well at pretending she does. And that - plus the way that she seems to have convinced so many people she may have a point - could be the real art.

"But is it art?" is the eternal question; and as the answer will inevitably be a subjective one, unless there's some way that people can feel it IS (if they look at it and it makes them feel or think something in particular, or if they can at least see what the creator intended, whether or not they succeeded), it's going to get the kind of reception that Emin, or Hirst, or many other artists receive from the general public : a frown, a scratch of the head, and a dismissal as NOT being art.

I don't think people want to look at something like an unmade bed, and be told the artist was depressed in it, and that's pretty much it; they're going to see an unmade bed. And for most people, that's an everyday sight. And everyday sights - whilst it would be wonderful to pretend they can be always beyond the mundane - are all too often made unmagical and unartistic by their commonplace nature.

I think Flyboy's right that only our responses are quantifiable, but I suspect most people will use certain shorthands in terms of their reaction (like the ones I mentioned above) to gauge whether, to their mind, something is art. It's bound to be a personal thing, but if it doesn't work for that person, they're unlikely to say it's art (or successful as a piece of art). Which isn't to say it isn't art, but the artist has to accept that that person doesn't see it as such.

And, as a parting swipe, I'm not entirely convinced that art which needs explaining does itself (or any movement it might be part of) any favours. Indeed, that need of explanation might be what puts people off, and leads them to damn it as 'not being art', if you see what I mean...

DBC
 
 
deletia
07:44 / 30.08.01
Absolutely. My five-year-old could do better.

And when the FUCK did I start defending Tracey Emin? Do you realise what this is forcing me into?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
07:44 / 30.08.01
Actually, five-year-olds often do better. I've known several artists who were reduced to a state of wistful envy seeing the clear, simple lines of a child's depiction of exactly what s/he sees, or feels about what s/he sees...

It's not the same, though, is it?

Is it?
 
 
deletia
07:44 / 30.08.01
Depends entirely on what you want from your art, presumably.
 
 
Ganesh
07:44 / 30.08.01
And the grounds upon which you claim to speak for the 'average person'.
 
 
Saveloy
14:15 / 30.08.01
This "is it art?" problem is never going to sod off, is it? The only civilised solution is for the Queen or the Pope or someone similarly big in the world of Being Official to make a public declaration that there will, henceforth, be TWO officially recognised forms of art:

ART1 - anything which complies with a strict set of rules about what ART1 actually is (no idea what they'd be - academics can have a whale of a time figuring them out - but they must be STRICT!)

ART2, or 'PHELB' or 'EYENICE' - no rules, whatever you bloody well please type stuff.

Each would be of equal status, with its own schools and critics and experts and galleries etc, so when someone says "that's all very well but is it art?" the artist can hold their head up high and say "I don't make art, I make PHELB!"

Tracey Emin's particular brand of phelb doesn't do much for me (I just can't get interested in her private life), but the more I see of her the more I like her as a personality.

Hey, here's some smashing eyenice.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:34 / 30.08.01
Cornell was real? I thought William Gibson made him up... Whoops.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
14:29 / 31.08.01
Oi oi, Saveloy!

Can't believe no one's done that yet...
 
 
Ellis
15:07 / 31.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Jack The Bodiless:
Oi oi, Saveloy!

Can't believe no one's done that yet...



There is a reason for that, Mr Eyebrows, there is a reason.
 
 
Saveloy
11:49 / 03.09.01
Jack The Bodiless:

"Oi oi, Saveloy!"

, !
 
 
Mordant Carnival
09:19 / 04.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Ellis:
Melvin Bragg: What do you trhink of the criticism that anyone could have done the bed?

Tracey Emin: Well why didnt they?


Because the pub shut before I could convince ppl it was a good idea, that's why.
 
 
autopilot disengaged
09:19 / 04.09.01
i like tracy emin. i think she's good. she's wayward, and creative, and self-destructive - essentially, a pop star. she expresses raw, uncut feelings about the shitty, abusive adolescence she was subjected to in a direct, but often witty way.

i like the fact that, love or hate the saatchi YBAs, they strove to make some kind of fusion of arte povera, conceptual and pop art - and to connect with a younger audience - their peers - instead of sucking up to museums (initially).

i even like the fact damian hirst made a pop video (didn't especially like the videa, though). yeah: all in all, i like tracy emin.

i think she's good.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
14:38 / 04.09.01
She's not as good as me. I'm great.
 
 
Edgar Barefoot
17:16 / 14.10.01
I think the best criticisms of Ms. Emin's ridiculousness can be found withinStuckism, a Remodernist art group, which I have the privilige of being affiliated with.
 
 
CharlesThomson
19:07 / 01.04.04
I totally agree with Edgar Barefoot who is obviously a very sound individual of discernment and wisdom.

I especially commend the Stuckist manifestos written by Billy Childish and Charles Thomson, two gentlemen who in my opinion certain know their onions.

They are not the sort of dimbo-heads fooled into thinking that a stupid old bed is anything other than a stupid old bed, and is certainly not a work of art.

Why, if you suggested such a thing to them they would laugh their heads off at the ridiculousness of your suggestion.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:18 / 05.04.04
Given that Billy Childish owes the title of and most of the attention given to the collection of manifesti with occasional outbreaks of painting that we know as "Stuckism" to having gone out with Tracy Emin, there is a definite hand, meet teeth vibe going on...

To bring things to a more recent Emin controversy - quiltgate. This seems like another evil selfish Emin story at first, but might reward a second look - after all, if I had taken time off from your extremely lucrative job as an artist to help kids make something, and then discovered that this work was being considered in terms of its resale value, I think I might be a bit pissed off. What do we think? Rights and wrongs?
 
 
Linus Dunce
21:11 / 05.04.04
Yes, fair play to Emin on this one I think, especially as the school is due to be closed at the end of the year. Selling the quilt for a quick profit in these circumstances does look a little cynical. BTW, the school didn't have three grand for framing? What's that, the price of a couple of "educational" PCs loaded with office drone software?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
11:22 / 06.04.04
" What do you think of the criticism that anyone could have done the bed ? "

" Well, why didn't they ? "

Yeah but they do though, lots of us wake in a conceptual art piece worth however many grand every Sunday morning, and then we groan a bit, shudder inwardly, then go out to the pub to get away from the damn thing, as opposed to just dumping it in the middle of a gallery. Quite who the fool is here though, I'm really not sure.

Really, what bugged me about the bed when I saw it " live, " as it were, was just how little thought appeared to have gone into it. I mean she couldn't even be bothered to come up with a title, at least Damien Hirst, even if apart from that it's just a call to the glazier and the local slaughterhouse, can seemingly find time to scribble something interesting down on the back of a napkin. I just wonder if T Emin's even capable of that much.

So sure, Bed was thought-provoking ( ie " what is this doing here, " it stirred an emotional response ( mild iritation, ) and even inspired a physical reaction ( walking slowly away with a shake of the head ), but if that's art, for god's sake, then surely anything is. I mean conceptual art without a concept - she's not the only one doing it, and it seems to work as a scam, but I'm really not sure it's doing anyone any favours, except the artists themselves. You know, so the art world's venal, and easy to fool... Well yes, and ?

Really, she's all about her public image - divorced from that, the " crazy Tracey " persona, what I've seen of her stuff doesn't seem to mean anything. So if she wanted to shut herself away in a gallery somewhere, ideally pickled in gin in a soundproof glass case... well that'd be making a fairly apposite comment on her status in the art world, I mean I'd go and see that.

And then again, maybe not.
 
 
Linus Dunce
13:12 / 06.04.04
Given that a recurring theme in modern women's art is that of domesticity, and the objects are often cast in domestic materials, is it possible that Tracey was asking some uncomfortable questions about women's art in general? For instance, what makes women's artwork different from their housework? Is it just context? Does that mean all traditional women are artists without a gallery? Does it mean that modern women artists are glorified housewives? You yourself asked why was it there ...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
16:18 / 06.04.04
Hm. Well resisting the obvious gag about housework here ( ie she doesn't seem to have done any... okay I couldn't resist, ) I just didn't get the feeling the bed was asking any questions at all. I mean sure, the ideas you raise here are interesting ones, but the point is they're yours, you've really done all the work, and artistically speaking I don't think that's good enough. At this late stage is it really still acceptable to just take an object, whatever, and then shove it in a gallery without any comment, any style or wit, or, as in this case, at least on the face of it, even any work, while relying on the context to make your point for you ? It seems to say the least lazy, and while I can see the counter-argument, that this type of stuff is all about what the viewer brings to the piece, it's now been used so often that I'm really not sure if it stands any more. Time for something new I think.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:18 / 07.04.04
You seem to be assuming that Emin woke up one day, realised that she had a deadline, and exported her bed, as it was, in a fit of panic. As far as I know, this did not happen. She constructed an artwork called My Bed (not Bed) suggestive of her bed, but which was in fact not her bed, in the sense of the bed that she slept in, but rather a representation of a bed created by her. So that's already one issue and one nuance in the title... I could, of course, be wrong, but it must otherwise have been a bugger to transport it without anything falling off...

I feel i should repeat here that, not being a big fan of Emin, I find it slightly astonishing that I am having to defend her, but the nature of the criticism is at times incorrect and second seems to be making some rather dodgy assumptions. For example, Frankie, along with his suggestion that Emin's My Bed, being Emin's bed, is a direct representation of her ability to do the housework (a noose was added to some of the displays, suggesting that the silly slut hadn't tidied since her last suicide attempt), and that the piece was called "Bed" (see above), tells Linus that Emin is forcing him to ask these questions about women's art, which seems not to take into account her lengthy collection of quilts, embroideries and other repositionings of "women's crafts" into the white cube of the gallery...
 
 
Linus Dunce
17:52 / 07.04.04
Doesn't it? OK then. Obviously then the art it solely about her personal experiences. Hardly a round defence of her work.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:46 / 07.04.04
I think you misunderstood me, Linus. What I meant was that by suggesting that you were doing all the spadework in thinking of the piece as tied into a broader consideration of women's work, women's crafts and women's status in the gallery, he's neglecting to consider the other work Emin has produced on these themes. That is to say, I think you're right that this is something to be considered.

I think that the themes of "My Bed" are, if not subtle, a little too subtle for some of the analyses we are geting here, of the "it's just a bed!" variety. This doesn't necesarily make it good art, of course. I think Emin was intertwining her own lifestyle, and the way it is perceived - madwoman, drunkard, slut - with broader representations of some pretty broad-brush women's issues - loneliness, sex, contraception, menstruation, depression, and of course being expected to keep the house tidy. Given that Emin's usual approach to messaging is embroidering "I want to have a nice cup of tea" on a tea cosy, this is a work of almost Violan enigma for her.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
12:37 / 08.04.04
" His suggestion that Emin's My Bed, being Emin's bed, is a direct representation of her ability to do the housework. "

Um, when I said that no work had apparently gone into the piece, I meant that in the sense of artistic work, not the domestic variety.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:19 / 08.04.04
Hm. Well resisting the obvious gag about housework here ( ie she doesn't seem to have done any... okay I couldn't resist, )

Do try to keep up with your own posts. However, the idea that no artistic work went into "My Bed" appears about as misguided as the idea that it didn't have a title. You seem still to be labouring under the belief that Emin woke up on the morning of the exhibition and hired a forklift to transport the bed in which she had shortly beforehand been sleeping to a gallery. I do not believe that this is in fact the case. If you mean that none of the traditionally recognised *crafts* went into it - stonemasonry, painting, welding - then that's another matter, but to the best of my knowledge it was assembled through a process of working out what elements to assemble to create an exhibition piece called "My Bed", gathered them, arranged them - worked with them, essentially.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:52 / 08.04.04
Yes, Emin might turn out art that I don't like at all but it does revolve around some rather hefty issues- female sexuality in British culture etc. It's rather more than cheeky to claim that she doesn't put any work in to her art. Let's not make ignorant claims, if you dislike something than tell the truth about it. I dislike the bed because I think it's ugly and it's representation is a little off (it doesn't work for me, the objects seem misplaced), not because Emin didn't put any work in to it.
 
  

Page: (1)2

 
  
Add Your Reply