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300 (spoilers for the comic and film likely contained within)

 
  

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Fraser C
10:04 / 20.03.07
I'm a Miller fan, but his stuff comes with obvious hawkish right-wing baggage.

If you happen to be from the Gulf Region you might quite rightly wonder why the facts of a historical event have been changed to make white guys look like supermen and you look like a savage intent on forcing your culture on others.

Whether intended or not, 300 has certainly been co-opted as propaganda by those who see a need for it.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:13 / 20.03.07
I think the timing has nothing to do with tensions with Iran

I'm sure Miller would disagree, and is very proud of the timing. Remember that those goddamn barbarians murdered thousands of his neighbours. His neighbours. In HIS city. That was five and a half years ago, easily long enough to allow for the film of 300 to deliberately play up a perceived resonance (and whilst, y'know, informed people not think that Al-Queda, Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran are not a united mass of wily violent Persians, you can bet your broken collarbone - DON'T GO INTO SHOCK OLD MAN - that Frank does). Miller is on record saying that most artists/entertainers in the West are too scared of teh Arab terrorists to tell it like it is, or else they're too wet and liberal and politically correct. Which is why Nico breaks her sword is also mistaken. You make a mistake if you don't see this as political.
 
 
Fraser C
10:19 / 20.03.07
I would agree largely. I'm sure Miller has intended the parallel.
 
 
Mug Chum
19:36 / 20.03.07
>>>I'm sure Miller would disagree, and is very proud of the timing.

I really can't see it in any other way. If this guy could quit comics to join a half-baked paranoid militia, he would. Even if "THEY WERE ONLY 300 AGAINST AN EXISTENTIAL FOE OF DOOM, PROTECTING THE HOME-FRONT".

If you hear this guy talking (his words and his voice) you can see those enemy freak-things are not so much a "exaggerated myth for story purposes" in his head (his words, "these people genetically modify their daughters, barbarians enemies who couldn't even invent this microphone I'm talking now").

What I love most about the interview above is how the interviewer is a bit freaked by this guy and lays it out "oh I see... and why do you think THOSE LIBERALS (actually YOU) are scared, out of touch and whiny?";

I thought Sin City was made into a movie by Rodriguez with knowing how it was all bullshit, made it with a satirical sneer and "so dumb, but fuck yeah and let's have fun" (and to shine a light where many people think this stuff is genius if it's genuine -- I just love how stupid those dialogues come off when they actually come out of people's mouth, "my amazon warrior! She kisses me with fury!"; it makes me think it's supposed to put in perspective our reading muscles). I haven't yet seen 300, but I can imagine Snyder made it with something behind it, expliciting things to the core. I used to think 300 was a bit satirical when 300 (pretty much nazi slave) men went to fight into death for freedom. I used to read 300 as, "they're just going at it so they'll get killed -- that's the freedom part, and all the homoeroticism amidst the Phallus worship and... well, being where they are", but no, it really seems genuine now).
 
 
Blake Head
01:34 / 24.03.07
It’s a visually interesting film. I think Elijah made a good point about the story being a re-telling of the legend from a mythological point of view, it certainly felt like an instructive story that had been exaggerated out of proportion over the years, not just in the introduction of inhuman monsters. You get the same sense from the story concerning young Leonidas at the start, where it’s clearly a coming of age tale overlaid with mythic/fantasy elements like big scary wolf demons. I felt the stop-start battle scenes and the iconic poses largely conveyed very well the sense that this had been adapted from a comic (if that was indeed what they were going for) and how well that fits in with the sense of the frozen image as well, the idea that these were characters transformed from men into inhuman symbols. I thought the use of the phalanx style defence was good as well, although I can understand why they felt that, dramatically, it was the sort of thing that would work well once, and that they sacrificed plausibility for the cool actions scenes. But on the whole it was enjoyable and silly and on that empty-headed level I quite enjoyed it. Ridiculous shouty men with TORSOS stabbing at other men and beasts all slick with blood with silly background music. Lovely. If there was a bit more manly wrestling I’d have been sold. Both the narration and the sub-plot were much weaker, and the political speechifying decidedly more dubious. In some ways the narration spoiled the sense of epic, profound deeds and words by spelling it all out, which was a bit of a shame.

While there’s clearly a concern about how easy it is to read American imperialism into the film, and the desensitisation at the killing of the enemy as not being truly human is highly problematic, taking it apart from its conditions of production, what struck me about the main plot, such as it is, is how apposite it is for a reading directly opposite to the ones suggested above. So a counter-reading, if you like, not intended to dismiss the validity of other readings:

Gold underpants aside, I didn’t get the same sense of pervy, androgynous, bisexual Xerxes some people did. Definite elements of monstrousness though, overdeveloped size, self-mutilation. There’s obviously a lot in the narrative about physical disfiguration, not just in the Persians themselves, but in the corrupt Ephors and traitorous Ephialtes. Just to go back to the exaggeration of traits again, it’s clear that in the film you don’t get hunchbacks, you get grossly deformed, improbably muscled monster hunchbacks, you don’t get wolves and elephants and slaves and emperors, but giant wolves and elephants and overtly dangerous and grotesquely muscled giants and demi-gods. You don’t stand them beside men, but against perfect, clean limbed, virtuous paragons. It’s almost like a folk tale, a warning against the effects of corruption, and the importance of staying true to a rigid moral code.

From my point of view, you could easily read America into this image of a religiously oppressive nation that, effectively, rules the world. It demands submission from others and expects the fruits of the earth. It’s a corrupting force, decadent, sexual, exploitative, luxurious, prepared to coerce weaker nations financially and politically, and to bribe individuals or seduce them into working against their home nation. I think the film has a lot on the dangers of being fooled into fighting for the enemy either by taking on their luxuries or turning informer and/or donning their uniform (as Ephialtes does). There’s also the sense that the oppressor can only do this because of existing deformity or weakness within the other wise virtuous society, and in some sense acts as a test of its purity.

In terms of the conflict we’ve got a small defensive group, not technically an army, holding its own against a much superior invading force. This superior force mixes the nations of the earth, has over-developed warriors who lose their identities under uniforms, and in contrast to the defenders simpler weapons heavily uses powerful projectiles and incendiaries. They will also summon tremendously powerful, dangerous moving weapons (elephants and rhino-beasts) that the defenders are yet compelled to attack cunningly and indirectly to bring them down. There's a general message that organisation and valour and conviction and knowing the terrain can allow a much weaker force to struggle against a stronger one. The losses of life in the small group are important because they are connected to each other as family, and by extension they are connected to the lives they seek to protect at home, in contrast the lives of the oppressors are worthless because they are invaders who lack identity, who fight out of idolatry and obedience rather than believing in a true cause. The overall message of the film is that when physical victory cannot be achieved then there is a cultural victory earned through self-sacrifice which can be won and which will in turn result in an uprising of many nations coming together under a central cultural myth and overthrowing the external oppressor. The death of this small group of men is significant because they died as heroes against impossible odds, bloodying the nose of an overwhelming imperial power, which was only possible through their status as standard-bearers for that culture’s values.

Now, that reading won’t entirely fit the film in the same way its opposing one won’t, but the broad similarities between, say, the British/American incursion into Iraq and the events of the film, and the sense that the film could almost be read as a rallying call for present-day insurgents against Western power, certainly struck me, and coloured my perspective on how expedient it is perhaps for both sides of the current Iran/U.S. controversy to read it in one way. Putting aside yes the good guys are very white and yes the bad guys are very not (and the terrible, tacked on political sub-plot), in other considerations there’s really a lot of ground for reading the film the “other” way. Not saying involved in the making of the film was thinking that at the time. Just… saying.
 
 
jeff
03:08 / 24.03.07
[Slightly off topic]

I second the Brian Blessed role...indeed I recall he narrated the Battle of Thermopylae by shouting at the camera, smashing precious ceramics and generally bellowing. These are all virtues. At any rate, I do not know what educational video in question this was on, though I would dearly love that knowledge. It was better than 300 at any rate.
 
 
CameronStewart
06:51 / 24.03.07
I have to say I'm glad that the reaction to 300 on this board is mostly negative - pretty much all of my friends loved it and it's driving me insane being the only one who thinks it's garbage. They won't listen to my (I think) justifiable criticism either - apparently I just "expect too much."

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:45 / 24.03.07
I think The 300 Spartans is on telly today. (slightly off-topic, I know, but I figure some of the UK 'lithers in this thread might be interested).
 
 
Feverfew
14:37 / 24.03.07
Watch out for rubber-spear-face-interaction and classic Hollywood Stern Acting if that's the case. It's worth, in my humblest opinion, a look.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
19:22 / 26.03.07
I, um, really enjoyed 300. Not that that necessarily makes it a "good" film...

Knowing what I (and we all) know about Miller, and the chucking about of the word "freedom" did make some unpleasant ideologies surface in the mind... not to mention the "none-more-Riefenstahl" visual elements, the swaying cornfields, the beautiful wife and child standing in same right at the end...

...but it's still one of my favourite stories, and it was told pretty well here. (I think the comic told it better, because it cut out- well, didn't actually have- a lot of the extraneous shit- as I think I've said before, it's one story it was ideal for Miller to tell). I also think that, as propaganda, if such it is, it's fairly ill-conceived- take out the geography, and then try to tell me that a minute force holding off the biggest army in the world is pro-Bush... (yeah, I'm not doubting for a second that Miller was probably intending it to be, if not at the time of writing the comic, then at the time of the film's creation, just saying that as an analogy it's... well, a bit piss-poor, really).

Mind you, I went to see it with a bunch of friends. One, who's normally fairly left-wing, very chilled, hates violence afaik, said on leaving "it's quite refreshing to see a depiction of a society that actively embraces violence" (to which my obvious response was "yeah, cos there's clearly not enough of that around these days...")

Another made the quite cogent point that in the "what's your profession?" scene, it would have been much better if they'd turned round to Leonidas and said "so who makes your pots then?" and he'd replied "oh, we have slaves to do that kind of shit for us".

The other said "it makes me want to walk around in my pants and fight people".

I dunno. I really liked it. I disliked a lot of what it was probably trying to do, I thought a lot of the acting was terrible and the casting had clearly been based primarily on whether people LOOKED the part rather than whether they could bring it to life, I thought the "meanwhile back in Sparta" scenes were fairly mediocre and disrupted the flow... but somehow I still really enjoyed it.

And it had some great scenes. Xerxes walking on the backs of his courtiers (then the scene paralleling this with Leonidas' own back later), the rain of arrows, the Persians pushed off the cliff- in fact, pretty much all the battle scenes.

It was a fucking fantastic action movie. As anything else, it wasn't all that, really. But as an action movie, it was superb.



And, having seen this and Inland Empire in the last fortnight, am I detecting a trend whereby people are starting to make the end credits FUCKING BRILLIANT?
 
 
Feverfew
19:27 / 26.03.07
And also, good fluffy deity but there's a lot of spoofs up on Youtube.

I actually want to see this as an action movie rather than a political allegory, but I fear this is not to be.
 
 
Sniv
23:02 / 26.03.07
I enjoyed this movie too, as dumb and loud and violent as it was, it was not a movie that forced you to think or agonize about anything in particular, but rather be swept up in the glorious machismo of it all. I find many of the criticisms of racism leveled at the film not to wash with me because, as many others have pointed out, it only really has ties with Bush et al if you really want them to be there - you could probably fit in any other patriarchy you wish to deem heroic/brutal (depending on your worldview) into the role of the Spartans. It's a story about martyrdom, you can project a lot of your own values on to the characters' actions and motivations should you so wish.

I also didn't think it was necessarily racist because of the historical setting of the story. Yes, it's not 100% (or even probably 30%) accurate, but it is at least true to say that these two cultures were engaged in a war. Given that we are viewing the narrative from the Spartans' POV (from a tale being told on the battlefield to rouse soldiers before the climatic battles, no less), I saw no problem with elevating the Spartans to the level of perfect men, and the demonising of their enemies. It made for a much much more engaging and thrilling story than showing the simple reality of the situation. This film is fantasy in the same vein as Lord of the Rings with it's European protagonists and 'dark' antagonists, only it's based in the ancient history of our own Earth, and the fact that it's ancestors live on to this day is inconsequential to the actual story being told.

With regards to the film itself, I did find it very enjoyable, only I wished it would have been more gory (I know, I am a gorehound). The CGI blood was nice, but there were moments in the film where the blood fades too quickly leaving clean dead soldiers on a clean dust floor being slice up by clean Spartans. Come on! There would be blood everywhere! I'm not asking for Shining torrents here, just a bit of gore on the floor and blood on the bodies and swords. Surely that could be added in post? It's a minor quibble, but it took me right out of the film a few times, which is annoying.

I thought that Xerxes was spectacular though, I was mesmerised whenever he was onscreen. I thought that the opulence and sheer godliness of his presence was much more powerful than it was in the book and his androgyny couple with his immense power only seemed to make him more Godlike and 'other', rather than weak an ineffectual. There were no titters in the packed screening I was in, just an awed silence.

I found the rampant machismo in the film pretty refreshing as well. It was fun seeing this idealised, unreachable example of masculinity, all glistening man-pecs and five o'clock stubble, it was all very homoerotic in a way that pushes some very primal buttons in my caveman brain (and in my partner's cavelady brain if the following few days of Leonidas-inspired bedroom-disco were anything to go by). I'm not suggesting that we follow this film to make the ideal society or anything, but I found it's almost total focus on masculinity and these noble ideals of heroism and what it is to be a 'man' to be fascinating and yes, rousing - presumably to the same part of my brain that gets kicks out of scrambling around in the woods playing paintball or playing rugby or any other sort of macho, violent male-bonding you can care to mention.

So yes, in most ways this was a dumb, loud, macho, pointy-bearded film of oiled-up men in leather pants and fetching capes hitting people, which was exactly what I expected, but it still carried me away with its hack'n'slashing, surprised a few times and took me to a world where men were men, and had no body-hair. I think there are certainly conspiracy theories here for those that want to look for them and be outraged by the film, but sometimes it's fun just to appreciate a work for it's purely aesthetic and sensory qualities and just not look for the dodgy politics to spoil your enjoyment of the work's many surface charms. I wouldn't want to live there, but it was a laugh while it lasted.
 
 
Mug Chum
07:29 / 27.03.07
>>>>how apposite it is for a reading directly opposite to the ones suggested above.

I used to see the comic in that very same way (as in, “how can somebody outside the U.S. not see this at the time as a freedom macho story against bully imperialism and colonizing forces?”). Or my other view was that it was a lightly satiric. These guys are practically slave warriors in a nazi state "fighting for freedom", on which I always read as a sneer that these guys were just going almost willingly and almost wishing for their deaths, their best chance for "freedom".

But the thing is, at it seems to me now, Miller appears to see his own view as a lonely one against the unjustified enemy terrorist bully -- you know that view, where white men feel like minorities "because all the minorities are having it better and having more rights", feeling like they're taking and winning everything? That's what I get when reading the guy today, that sense of overall hostility, that sense I imagine a paranoid white militia guy has (one against many, few against millions, America against almost the entire word etc). That feeling you get when your hear the rhetoric from those Bill Donahue types, that secular jews, the liberal media and the world are controlling the world and lining up against the catholics etc. That sort of extremist right-wing persecution I get from Miller’s work, as being a few steps away from a fantasy-wish-tank. In Frank's interview, most people are either enemies or whiny pussies making it easy for the enemies – either case, they’re both enemies.

I do think Snyder might have made with a sneer behind it all, since many things in the very comic are so blatant that it appears to be intentionally “dumb” Colbert-style (and I like hearing that many are consciously appreciating the homoerotic undertones that the comic itself seems to deny; I was going nuts in thinking I was alone on it, believing it was intentional since first seeing the movie’s stills – only thing is, I fear most people actually see it as the ultimate straight-men macho “no faggot pussies allowed” wink, or “battle call” or a “call to arms and dicks” or whatever, instead of “Do you like gladiator movies, Jimmy?”) .

Although I might end up seeing a bootleg version, even if only to see what’s with all the “it’s a videogame!”, “I SCREAM!” and “was that a slow-mo bouncing titty?” chatter.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
08:30 / 27.03.07
I do think Snyder might have made with a sneer behind it all, since many things in the very comic are so blatant that it appears to be intentionally “dumb” Colbert-style

I don't know much about Snyder himself, but I did suspect there might be an element of Verhoeven's Starship Troopers-esque piss-taking going on.
 
 
osymandus
11:03 / 27.03.07
"I was going nuts in thinking I was alone on it, believing it was intentional since first seeing the movie’s stills – only thing is, I fear most people actually see it as the ultimate straight-men macho “no faggot pussies allowed” wink, or “battle call” or a “call to arms and dicks” or whatever, instead of “Do you like gladiator movies, Jimmy?”)"

Possibly though the 3rd option of beastul killing machine that doesnt give a crap for human ideologey or personification of symbolism . (i.e if a bear rears up on its hind lets and bites your head it just means it wants to kill you ). Sometimes the "meaning" is they just want you dead
 
 
Benny the Ball
07:02 / 28.03.07
I saw it, and quite enjoyed it. There's not much story, or meat to it, just men go to place, men fight, pretty images. I found myself liking Leonadis despite myself.

I too took it as Persian Army = US Army - even if Snyder and Miller didn't mean this at all, it's what I read it as. Especially as the Spartan's present themselves as happy to die for their cause, and the Persian's throw every "new" weapon they can muster from every corner of their world. Earth and Water as well, blatently oil.

It is funny that the film is a 15, considering the decapitations, dismembering, general gore fest.

Oh, and Stoatie - totally agree about the end credits, I thought that they were great.
 
 
Not in the Face
11:51 / 28.03.07
I saw this yesterday and really enjoyed it as a visual spectacle. I think attempts to link it with current situation in the middle east are pretty futile - Miller clearly wrote 300 based on his ideas of what good and evil were and so there is some carry over but I'd agree with people who argue this isn't carried through in the film, partly because it is an empty headed unreflective monster of a movie.

What I did find interesting was the insistence of the movie to show the 300 as 'modern' in the sense of being rational. The priests are corrupt charlatans, easily bribed by Xerxes and the refusal of the main body of men to follow this alledged superstition is never really examined. I know its all made up for the film and novel but clearly the producers didn't feel an audience would accept a society that actually followed religous law believing it to be the right thing to do, whatever the material consequences.

Instead the blame is shifted to the Council who refuse to break the law for reasons of both corruption and cowardliness (which seems to be very unspartan). It was this inconsistency that ruined the 'back at Sparta' scenes, mostly because I've become quite good at blocking out hammy speeches

Although I suppose they were telling the myth of the 'one strong man' who does whats right, regardless of red tape and corrupt advisors ever since kings and courts were invented so its hardly a modern parrallel
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:38 / 28.03.07
its hardly a modern parrallel

Seriously, what on earth do you mean? Do you mean the parties represented in the film do not accurately represent parties extant today?

Well, no, of course they don't, but I think the sentiment:

"All the eastern people are evil! They want to take over our country and will not stop, because inherently evil! Look at them with their dark skin, elephants and queerness! We must fight against them, because Freedom isn't Free, is it? Ah, only the corrupt governments and intellectual types would consider not fighting them!"

... which the film expresses is clearly supposed to carry some kind of "message" relevant to what it considers "the modern context", and if you don't see that intention, then frankly I worry.
 
 
deja_vroom
15:48 / 28.03.07
I hate bullet time. I hate bullet time. I hate bullet time, and I hate it even more when it's interspersed with quick fast-forwarding to the next bullet time. As I approach my 30's, the world gets more and more like a t-shirt that was cut for another size than mine.
 
 
osymandus
13:46 / 29.03.07
As I approach my 30's, the world gets more and more like a t-shirt that was cut for another size than mine.

Now that has to go on a T-Shirt
 
 
Emerald
12:14 / 05.04.07
While I was watching the movie, beside the stunning visuals what striked me was the adherence not to ancient Greek history, but to ancient Greek _literature_.

From what I remember from high school, they actually saw the Persians as evil, always trying to corrupt them (and many times they actually did, fueling the eternal internal strifes of Greek city-states). The Greeks despised the "empire-ness" of Persia, that is being a inter-ethnic and supra-national state, and the submission of different peoples to the same leader, the symbol of which was kneeling (proskynesys). And Orientalism, as seeing Asia as the source of all wealth and vices, was indeed born at that time.

All the same, according to the historical accounts of the time, the Spartans were seen by the other Greeks as a war-obsessed tyrannical state, with the eugenics and the continual mandatory military training, much as we see them in the movie.

What is ironic, is that all these elements are integral to ideological propaganda, used to legitimate war and denigrate adversaries, but it is a 5th century BC ideology!

I shiver thinking that one day people could perhaps read and study "American mythology" or even "Western mythology" based on present-day propaganda.
 
 
Spaniel
12:21 / 05.04.07
Haus, want to step in here?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:37 / 05.04.07
Ulp. Do I have to do more than "It's a bit more complicated than that?"
 
 
Emerald
15:26 / 05.04.07
It is and it is not.

It all revolves around the observation that "Why the hell should someone now revamp ideas and sensibilities two thousand years old, that were born with the (almost) sole purpose of other-bashing, and are still surprisingly valid today for the same purpose?"

And by other-bashing I intend it as both against the Persians AND the Spartans, given that most literature we have from that period comes from Athens, and they were enemy of both.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:45 / 05.04.07
Well, that's a bit more complicated as well, really. I mean, at a certain point Athens and Sparta were _at war_, certainly, but enemies? Trickier by far. Athenian aristocrats often had closer ties to Spartan aristocracy than to Athenian commoners - Cimon, IIRC, named one of his sons Lacedaimonius. And, for that matter, during the period when Athens and Sparta were at war, Tissaphernes the Persian became an important tactical asset. The Athenian democracy was founded with Spartan assistance, and you wouldn't see them as on particularly bad terms until the seige of Ithome, decades after the events of 300. Meanwhile, even during the Peloponnesian war you have sympathetic Peloponnesians popping up in Aristophanes, and earlier yet Aeschylus was writing sympathetic portrayals of Persians in 472.

One might perhaps say that 300 is based not so much on what was actually being written in the 5th Century, but rather half-remembered ancient history combined with an oddly reverent approach to a 1962 sword-n-sandals movie, and in those terms I think does disfavour to Greeks, Persians and historians alike.
 
 
Janean Patience
07:23 / 18.04.07
Maybe it's just that I saw them both in the same week, but 300 and We Were Soldiers, an entire movie about the Battle of Ia Drang in 1965, have a lot of similarities. Both focus almost entirely on one side, their opponents given screen time only as the enemy, both have a grizzled-and-heroic commander who fights with his troops, both lose an idealistic young soldier at about the same point, both are about a small, elite force massively outnumbered on enemy terrain.

So far so war film, yeah. But the visual styles of the two match up, though Snyder goes much further into stylisation. Lots of high-contrast filming, slow motion and spurting blood as our boys die, day turning to night and a plot with the commander's wife at home shot in a much flatter style, heightening the effect of the battle footage.

Both are ostensibly non-political, Soldiers focusing only on professional soldiers (as opposed to the dope-smoking draftees of most 'Nam movies) and the sacrifices they make for each other. Other than our guys being the good guys there's no engagement with the politics of the Vietnam war at all. Nevertheless, both were loved by flagwavers.

Whether one inspired the other in any way I don't know, but it provides a parallel of sorts.
 
 
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06:29 / 31.07.07
I just saw this and loved it. I was a bit confused and jarred by the way some of the Persians appeared as monster-types, but after reading Blake Heads counter-reading which I thought was a great post, I can put things into a better setting in my mind. Mainly though, it was the actual history of what happened in that battle that I found amazing when I read up on it a bit before watching the film, which led me to read up further on the Greco-Persian war in general, including the battle of Plataea, which started up as the film finished. Cool film, and I'm still recalling the now famous "This, is, SPARTAAA!" line, and the kicking of the messenger over the edge, as well as the rest of Gerard Butlers performance in the film, which I loved.

Oh and I totally agree with the person near the start of the thread that mentioned the way it was good to see the actual battles, instead of shaky camera bullshit that I hate with a passion, (and that pretty much killed the second Bourne film for me.) especially when it stops you from seeing anything that's going on. Pretty neat stuff.
 
 
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06:59 / 31.07.07
Huh, I forgot to add something about the timing of this film, which I thought was pretty suspect, and after listening to Frank Miller speaking from the link in the first page, that's pretty disturbing to say the least. I'll go with Blakes reading instead of the writers, for sure.

I really don't see their ships on your coasts Frank, heh. More like the other way around.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:04 / 31.07.07
I'd love to hear some equally radical Barbelith interpretations of Birth of a Nation and Triumph of the Will.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:17 / 31.07.07
Just to go back to the exaggeration of traits again, it’s clear that in the film you don’t get black people... und so weiter?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:43 / 31.07.07
Given that we are viewing the narrative from the Klansmen's POV, I saw no problem with elevating the Klansmen to the level of perfect men, and the demonising of their enemies.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:57 / 31.07.07
Well, I can see both arguments, and I can certainly think of films that do not communicate the message, or the untrammelled message, that the producers believe it does, or indeed that the writer and director believe that it does. Apparently, Black Hawk Down is a popular film in the US far-right community, which was probably not what the creators were going for, because, criticism of US command decisions aside, it shows a _lot_ of nameless foreigners getting killed by superior US technology and training.

I guess my problem with subversive readings of 300 is that they tend to have to say at some point "If you forget about the bit where all the good guys are white Americans/Europeans and the bad guys are all dark-skinned people from the East"... and I don't know if one can forget about that bit, or rather if one should.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:54 / 31.07.07
Well yeah - re-reading Blake Head's post I see that ze actually concludes there's isn't much of a case for some sort of counter-reading that sees the Persians as the US/West and the Spartans/Greeks as, I dunno, Iraqi insurgents or something. So I don't know what Te is on about, but it's hardly the first time.

(I think it's important to note, by the way, that only the initial 300 are outnumbered by the Persians. The Greek/we-are-all-Spartans-now army at the end is vast. This is entirely in keeping with the neo-con reading of the situation in the Middle East, which sees Israel and the current US/UK military presence in Iraq and Afghanistan as outnumbered by all the hostile surrounding Arab hordes, with the potentially superior might of the West held in check by... treacherous fifth columnists, cowardly politicans who'd rather debate than fight, weak sexual perverts, etc etc. 300 is entirely in keeping with this worldview.)
 
 
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16:21 / 31.07.07
Well yeah - re-reading Blake Head's post I see that ze actually concludes there's isn't much of a case for some sort of counter-reading that sees the Persians as the US/West and the Spartans/Greeks as, I dunno, Iraqi insurgents or something. So I don't know what Te is on about, but it's hardly the first time.

I wasn't bothered about the case at all when I read Blakes post, just that I liked it and it was inspiring. I don't care what people think when it comes to viewing a film in a certain way and don't need a case for it. This was before I found out anything about what Frank Miller actually thinks aswell, and now I'm even more inclined to see the film the way Blake wrote about it, to subvert the crazy bullshit going on in the original meanings(s) that the writer intended.

I'm quite put off the film now anyway, and don't even know if I can watch it again after imagining some of the asshatted and ignorant intentions that must have coloured the way the film was written in the firstplace. Maybe I can watch it again and just be inspired by the 300, but it might not be that easy now, and that's fucking annoying because I thought the way they fought and stuck together as they defended was inspiring, well written and well delivered.
 
 
Blake Head
00:12 / 27.08.07
Well, I’m glad you got something out of it Te. As to it being a preferable reading, well, as has been helpfully pointed out above there are a number of elements in the film which can broadly be said to be aligned with the current political attitudes taken by the US / West. My point was more that given that this is clearly the case, I was surprised by quite to what extent what appeared to me as very specific images corresponding between the fictional Persian army and the present day American one.

That is, that for a text that is so easily read as supportive of Western imperialism “we’ve got to band together to save our democracy” style jingoism there are numerous instances in which it seems the assumed correspondence between the Spartans as representatives of modern democracy falls down. It was the unreliability of the text that I was trying to get at. I don’t think you can ultimately get away from the skin tones of those involved in the film, or that any of the observations above are so jarring that they preclude either 300 or for that matter Black Hack Down being viewed as 100% pro-American.

If memory serves, I was making a point about the grotesque musculature / gigantism of the Persians because I felt, with a bit of a nudge, if one was attempting to use the film to highlight the negative traits of modern day American forces, an analogy could be made between those characters and the image of the pumped-up, steroid-fuelled US soldier.

In other news, I heard gossip to the effect that the Spartan six packs on offer were digitally enhanced. And that seemed disappointing, somehow.
 
  

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