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Banning thread: Netaungrot

  
  

Page: 12(3)

 
 
Jack Denfeld
01:30 / 10.03.07
Do we have probation mode or anything? I really don't wanna ban this guy for the specific charges brought against him. He is engaging now, and I think the case is different than paranoidwriter(I wish we coulda saved that guy, he started off alright before he went insane).

Maybe a voluntary leave of the Temple for a little while to kind of let things simmer down? Netaun seemed ok in our art area anyways.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:56 / 10.03.07
As has already been said, if Netaungrot feels that it is a compulsory religious or spiritual duty to troll message boards, then a) being a Discordian beats the crap out of one of those religions where you have to work in soup kitchens or help with disaster relief and b) we already have the information we need about how he intends to interact with Barbelith in the future.

***

No. You misunderstand, intentionally it seems.

Mockery does not = trolling. If it does, then why do we refer to comedians as comedians instead of trolls.


***

My interpretation often appears to be trolling to the outside eye and yes, sometimes that's all it amounts to.

I do wish the children would keep their stories straight. It would confer on these conversations at least some veneer of utility.
 
 
iconoplast
04:43 / 10.03.07
I've clicked on those liks, and I see him engaging sometimes, but then being rude and dismissive at other times. I mean, he responds to posts with more posts talking about the same thing.

However, the list of names of the posters who did not engage with the ideas at stake, made ad hominem attacks, and behaved like utter asshats would include enough people to make Barbelith worthless in their absence.

I'm not really engaging with Barbelith as much as I'd like to be these days, and I feel a real sense of disconnect from whatever passes for a mentality around parts as heterogenous as these. So, for what it's worth - I don't think we should ban him.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:53 / 10.03.07
Me Netaungrot , this may sound rude so I apologise in advance, but unfortunately I can't think of a better way to phrase it right now: Is English your first language and/or is your style of writing while on this board tied up to your belief system? A simple answer please.

Netaungrot Yes, English is my first language. I'm insulted that you think I ought to answer something as complex as the relationship of writing to belief in simple terms. Even the nature of language or belief considered separately elude researcher's understanding. You will have to be much more clear and specific if you want a simple answer.

Well, I'm not sure why you should feel insulted by that particular question or even how that could insult you. However, your reply was both instructive and illuminating. Thank you.

Searching you out online it does rather seem as though you have some previous in terms of sitting on a board, not offering anything other than critique and getting snippy when other people get annoyed. This for example,
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:CKZu64kAjAIJccultforums.com/forum//lofiversion/index.php%3Ft13115-100.html+netaungrot&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&client=firefox-a
, would seem very familiar behaviour.

(If anyone is interested, replace the smiley with a : and then an o to see the link)

And, having read the Principia Discordia many times, I don't see much connection between your behaviour and it. The confusion you cause is not that of people's reality tunnels being challenged, it's the bafflement of no-one knowing what on earth you are talking about. Being rude in return when they try to work out what you mean will also be counter-productive as that won't cause them to question the fundamental nature of their assumptions but write you off as a dick and go talk to someone who isn't afraid to speak in plain sense.

In your current state of intellectual separatism it would seem you are here neither to learn or to teach but to throw around the contents of rubbish cans. I'm sure you get satisfaction from having doors slammed in your face as you can tell yourself that they were too backward and hidebound to grok your truths and never have to face the fact that maybe you're just not a very good tale-teller.

I've now moved my position to one of not minding at all if
Netaungrot were kicked off the board. However, if it's felt that his presence, while grain-of-sand-in-the-eye irritating, has not yet been sufficiently irritating to warrant kicking, I would think he could be safely ignored as he seems unwilling and unable to bring anything useful to the table.
 
 
Evil Scientist
06:53 / 10.03.07
Maybe a voluntary leave of the Temple for a little while to kind of let things simmer down? Netaun seemed ok in our art area anyways.

That doesn't sound unreasonable. However it is reliant on Net agreeing to it and also, perhaps, agreeing not to display the same attitude when he returns to Temple.

You don't know shit about my volunteer work or my relationship to my community or what objections I have to religion. Your smear campaign will make you look stupid in the long run.

Your intention is to ban me before all the evidence can be examined.

All we are able to know about you Net is what you have written on the board. Given the confrontational and abrasive nature of your posts it really shouldn't be a massive shock to you that the response isn't that people instantly fall at your feet.

Just because this is only a message board it doesn't mean that basic standards of politeness shouldn't be followed.

If you have other evidence in your defence then why not post it for those of us who are unaware of your contributions to the board?

Are your misreadings of my statements genuine, or an elaborate ruse to ban me from Barbelith?

I think you need to be careful of over-analysing the issue Net. From the evidence that has been presented so far, and your generally unrepentant attitude, as well as the Barbelegal precedent of Paranoidwriter vrs The World there is IMO enough grounds for this discussion to be taking place.

I think Jack is suggesting a way that this could be resolved without banning. Would you be willing to give it a try?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:07 / 10.03.07
You don't know shit about my volunteer work or my relationship to my community or what objections I have to religion.

He does a lot of work for charity. Doesn't like to talk about it.

No of course we don't know any of those things, you haven't said anything about them. Because when challeneged you prefered (e.g.) to drop dark hints about the evol conspiracy behind the lack of a search function than to expound on what you actually think.

Your smear campaign will make you look stupid in the long run.

Nobody is smearing you, dude, except you.

By the way, I wholeheartedly apologise for that Lj friends list crack. It was out of line, a snide dig, and did nothing to help an ugly situation.

I should have said Xanga friends list.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:28 / 10.03.07
But you haven't been asked to provide an explanation as to "something as complex as the relationship of writing to belief" You were asked: is your style of writing while on this board tied up to your belief system?

If you're asking whether I believe what I write here, no, it's only a rough approximation of where I'm at and should be taken as such.

No. I am asking if your style of writing, the manner in which you write, is connected to your belief system. It's a painfully simple and very reasonable question. I don't know what you hope to gain by avoiding it.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:37 / 10.03.07
(PS: Lady, to get rid of the in that link you need to replace the : with %3A so the board software stops parsing it it as a bloody smiley. Link will then work.)
 
 
Quantum
11:56 / 10.03.07
My interpretation often appears to be trolling to the outside eye and yes, sometimes that's all it amounts to.

Netaungrot- here's another simple question for you to evade.
Do you intend to continue posting in a style that to an outside eye appears to be trolling? Hope it's not insulting to ask you for a yes/no answer.
 
 
Princess
12:39 / 10.03.07
Also, Netaungrot, if it appears like trolling then it is. The rest of the board doesn't get your intentions and internal processes, we only get the bit which looks, sounds, and feels like trolling.

Rarefied and pretty as your motives might be, we don't benefit from them if the posts communicate something else to us. Rather than telling other posters off for responding badly then maybe you should work out what it is about your posting that caused them to think you warranted that response. If people are treating you as if you are a certain thing it is only because your posts present that image to them and they have no other data to go on.
 
 
· N · E · T ·
17:39 / 10.03.07
Do you intend to continue posting in a style that
to an outside eye appears to be trolling? Hope it's
not insulting to ask you for a yes/no answer.

No I don't intend to continue posting in a style that
is easily confused with trolling. I plan on being very
careful until people know me and can easily make
the distinction.

Searching you out online it does rather seem as
though you have some previous in terms of sitting
on a board, not offering anything other than critique
and getting snippy when other people get annoyed.
This for example,
[troll-like ruining of text formatting with giant broken link]
, would seem very familiar behaviour.

That google cache doesn't even have half the story
in it, but it confirms enough of yourbeliefs that you
can fill in all the gaps and even gloss over what
doesn't fit.

Try filling in this one: if I'm such a horrible person
or a troll, why did I agree to let the bitterness go and
continue the discussion at occultforums? Do you
suppose that if your moderators had shown the tiniest
bit of leadership that I would have reacted similarly?

Critique is important to me. I wish more people
would give my art and ideas critiques rather than
succumbing to insulting my person or just asking
me to leave when they disagree. If you are going to
prohibit me from analyzing ideas on this site, just
say so. You'll never hear from me again. I want to
have nothing to do with a groupthink so severe
that they will outright prohibit analysis.


By the way, I wholeheartedly apologise for that
Lj friends list crack. It was out of line, a snide dig,
and did nothing to help an ugly situation.

I should have said Xanga friends list.

Still trying to goad me into character attacks eh?

Slimey.

That's fine for where I come from but seems a
might inappropriate for your role here.


Also, Netaungrot, if it appears like trolling then
it is. The rest of the board doesn't get your
intentions and internal processes, we only get
the bit which looks, sounds, and feels like trolling.

You've got a point and I'm sorry I was not more
attuned to how I was being received. Where I
spend a lot of my time, our discussions are
peppered with half-serious affronts and off-topic
freewheeling. I thought that was fine for a
Discordian thread and that people were taking it
with a boulder of salt let alone a grain. I see now
that only a very sober approach is appropriate
and will abide accordingly.

Or you can just give me the boot with confidence
that you know enough about me from a few
instances in the space of a few years, and that the
risk of another thread going sour is too great.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:32 / 10.03.07
I was asking questions even after people started taking shots at me.

Mmmmnnah. Can't quite agree with you there. I mean, you were writing sentences that ended with question marks, sure, but I don't see anything much in that thread which looks like an attempt to discover what kinds of belief systems might be a work in the heads of your fellow posters. I do see a lot of comments regarding supersition, groupthink, etc., which would seem to imply a degree of assumption-making on the part of the poster.

As for engaging viewpoints: [lengthy repost redacted]

Again, not seeing much engagment there. In fact since those are the posts that people have been complaining about WRT a lack of engagment (not to mention rudeness and generally being a bit of an irritant), if they were meant to engage the other posters they have evidently been misunderstood. Reposting them as-is without comment or further explanation seems singularly futile; perhaps, instead, you'd care to give us a rundown of what you were trying to say/learn/achieve in plainer language? For extra credit, try not to imply the existance of a stupid or wicked hivemind, or that people have not read the Principia/not read the Principia properly etc etc.


By the way, I wholeheartedly apologise for that Lj friends list crack. It was out of line, a snide dig, and did nothing to help an ugly situation.

I should have said Xanga friends list.

Still trying to goad me into character attacks eh?

Nope. I just found it a bit comic, the way you responded to the mere suggestion that you might use one species of blogging/networking tool as if it were tantamount to slander, when in act you make use of another, very similar, blogging/networking tool. Seems like an example of disingenousness to me. (Disingenuity? Disingenuosity? Damn, I can never remember...)

As for character attacks--looks like you've just perpetrated one right there, by accusing me of trying to goad you into an attack. Another one, should I say, on top of the several implied and outright character attacks you've already made so far.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:55 / 10.03.07
Netaun seemed ok in our art area anyways.

Yeah. What's up with that, Nettie? You're obviously capable of writing reasonable posts in clear, effective language. Why have you chosen an oblique approach elsewhere? And why are you so hostile when you're called on that?
 
 
· N · E · T ·
21:07 / 10.03.07
Nope. I just found it a bit comic, the way you responded to the mere suggestion that you might use one species of blogging/networking tool as if it were tantamount to slander, when in act you make use of another, very similar, blogging/networking tool. Seems like an example of disingenousness to me. (Disingenuity? Disingenuosity? Damn, I can never remember...)

Awfully disingenouus of you to pretend you were just referring to a networking tool rather than being hostile.

As for character attacks--looks like you've just perpetrated one right there, by accusing me of trying to goad you into an attack.

I'm not calling you names, I'm describing how your behavior appears to me. What are you trying to do then with your continued abrasiveness? Also, support this claim:

Another one, should I say, on top of the several implied and outright character attacks you've already made so far.


I'm not going to respond to you anymore until you can address me in a civil manner Mordant.


Netaun seemed ok in our art area anyways.

Yeah. What's up with that, Nettie? You're obviously capable of writing reasonable posts in clear, effective language. Why have you chosen an oblique approach elsewhere? And why are you so hostile when you're called on that?

Show me what you consider an oblique approach so we can discuss it. Also detail where you see hostility in response to solely being "called on that."
 
 
Princess
10:56 / 11.03.07
I don't intend to continue posting in a style that
is easily confused with trolling. I plan on being very
careful until people know me and can easily make
the distinction.

Great. Well, with that said then I'm all for you staying.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:26 / 11.03.07
Yeah, I'm with Princess on this one. As long as the statement was actually, y'know, true.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:47 / 11.03.07
I might suggest that Netaungrot could have a look at contributing to some other fora apart from the Policy and Temple? What about a thread for his art in Creation? Or look at the conversations currently underway in the Head Shop? It would certainly help to demonstrate his sincerity.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:06 / 11.03.07
I'm not going to respond to you anymore until you can address me in a civil manner Mordant.

If it's civility you want, old chap, then civility you shall have. I certainly don't have anything to lose by taking you at your word when you say "I don't intend to continue posting in a style that is easily confused with trolling. I plan on being very careful until people know me and can easily make the distinction." If you plan on communicating with the rest of the board in a way that is civil and readily understood, I have no further problem with you and will happily retract my call for a ban.

Lady, above, makes some good suggestions--visiting other fora to share your interests would flesh you out a bit as a fellow poster, and make it easier to evaluate your more abstruse posts fairly.

I would also invite you (maybe after everyone has calmed down a bit) to revisit the Temple and outline some of your concerns regarding magic and religion. Be advised that since this is a sticky subject, carefully-worded posts in plain English will serve you better than missing verbs and neologisms.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
17:46 / 11.03.07
I don't intend to continue posting in a style that
is easily confused with trolling. I plan on being very
careful until people know me and can easily make
the distinction.
Sounds good to me.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
18:11 / 11.03.07
Might want to read up on what moderators are actually here for if you don't want to piss people off even more, though.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
18:19 / 11.03.07
That is not a useful road to follow, and it is part of the path down to Paranoidwriter's banning terminus - which, incidentally, Alex's grandma and Jack Denfeld appear to have forgotten about.

Au contraire; when I die, they'll find the word 'Paranoidwriter' written on my heart ...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:04 / 11.03.07
He was so young and beautiful.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
19:18 / 11.03.07
Big deal, I've got The Rime of the Ancient Mariner on my stomach and This be the Verse on my kidney. You don't want to know about my pancreas.
 
 
Princess
19:54 / 11.03.07
Pah, that's all chicken shit. I've got a photo-quality miniature of the queen mother on the inside wall of my lower bowel.
 
 
Quantum
21:44 / 11.03.07
I don't intend to continue posting in a style that
is easily confused with trolling.

Ace, that's good enough for me.
 
 
Seth
10:13 / 12.03.07
Sorry it's taken me a while to get up to speed on all the relevant posts and threads here, especially considering one of the earlier threads linked to as possible evidence largely involves a few issues that Netaungrot and I had with each other a couple of years ago. Busy month.

Personally I'm of the opinion that the material in the Can you stop it just by not believing in it? is not something that I'd like to be taken solely as evidence for a prosecution. Yeah, I got annoyed. But I agree that I'm sometimes prone to being blustery, tedious, self-important and long-winded in my posting style sometimes, so it was probably only a matter of time before someone found my posting style annoying and took issue with it. But that thread also contains posts by myself and Netaungrot in its later pages in which ze and I were getting along fine once those issues had been laid aside, and in those places I thought that ze bought something of worth to the thread. Ze posts some good stuff on the first page too before the thread enters the paincave, but even the combative nature of the later discourse is arguably still on topic (a few people make that point themselves). Netaungrot expresses regret about it in on the first page of this thread, I've PM'd hir to the tune of no hard feelings. I'm happy with that outcome.

Now that we've had a few pages to clarify terms, it seems as though the issue here is one of acclimatisation to the type of writing style and means of approach that Barbelith generally favours. Netaungrot says ze is using a style that ze believes is generally acceptable on certain other sites, and says upthread that they won't continue with it here any longer. From my above example I quite like Netaungrot's posts when they're more similar to the kind of clear, concise and inclusive contribution that Barbelith tends to favour. So that all seems cool to me.

On the subject of long-standing members who have contributed a fair old bit having more leeway to be rude or abrasive because of their past record… ouch. That's made me think a little about some of the annoying snippiness I've been showing of late, especially in the Music forum, just because I arrogantly thought I could get away with it because I've done a couple of posts that people said they liked. I general, no, I don't think there should be one rule for one and another rule for the rest, but it's often tough to outwork in practise when you've known a contributor for years and know that they're not always an ass.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:45 / 12.03.07
On the subject of long-standing members who have contributed a fair old bit having more leeway to be rude or abrasive because of their past record…

That's kind of not what I was getting at. I certainly don't think it's okay for longer-term members to act out and behave badly just because they can point to a longer posting history, just that it's easier to evaluate confusing content or a challenging style if you know a bit about the poster.

I don't have a huge problem with n00bs being abrasive in tone as long as they are engaging with the board in a meaningful way. In general, problems arise not so much from a confrontational style per se but from posts in which a confrontational style is compounded by obliqueness and obfuscation.

In fact, in this case (and I'm sorry to drag all this up again, Netaungrot) I found the existance of clearly-written and meaningful posts actually compounded my sense of frustration and anger. That Netaungrot evidently could communicate well and contribute meaningfully when he chose to do so made me tend to interpret his more recent posting style as a deliberate attempt to obscure ideas rather than communicate them and to generate frustration and ill-feeling in the rest of the group. Unfortunately the deliberate creation of barriers to communication is pretty common in occult, magical and similar circles, either to disguise weak ideas and make the poster look more impressive to the impressionable or simply to generate irritation. This is an all-too-familiar troll tactic on Barbelith.

However, Netaungrot has stated that this was not his intention and I accept that. I hope we can put this misunderstanding behind us.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:39 / 12.03.07
Group hug?
 
 
Princess
17:08 / 12.03.07
Behold my open arms!
 
  

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