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Home Bible Study: Genesis

 
  

Page: 1(2)34

 
 
jentacular dreams
17:14 / 30.03.07
OK, to continue (on what may not be a terribly fruitful section), here's the NIV's Genesis 4:17 - 5:32: Enoch, Lamech, plus geneologies (basically everything prior to Noah). [Footnotes] at the bottom.

17 Cain lay with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch. 18 To Enoch was born Irad, and Irad was the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael was the father of Methushael, and Methushael was the father of Lamech.

19 Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah. 20 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock. 21 His brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play the harp and flute. 22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of [a] bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain's sister was Naamah.

23 Lamech said to his wives,
"Adah and Zillah, listen to me;
wives of Lamech, hear my words.
I have killed [b] a man for wounding me,
a young man for injuring me.

24 If Cain is avenged seven times,
then Lamech seventy-seven times."

25 Adam lay with his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, [c] saying, "God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him." 26 Seth also had a son, and he named him Enosh.
At that time men began to call on [d] the name of the LORD.

Genesis 5
From Adam to Noah
1 This is the written account of Adam's line.
When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them "man. [e] "
3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.

6 When Seth had lived 105 years, he became the father [f] of Enosh. 7 And after he became the father of Enosh, Seth lived 807 years and had other sons and daughters. 8 Altogether, Seth lived 912 years, and then he died.

9 When Enosh had lived 90 years, he became the father of Kenan. 10 And after he became the father of Kenan, Enosh lived 815 years and had other sons and daughters. 11 Altogether, Enosh lived 905 years, and then he died.

12 When Kenan had lived 70 years, he became the father of Mahalalel. 13 And after he became the father of Mahalalel, Kenan lived 840 years and had other sons and daughters. 14 Altogether, Kenan lived 910 years, and then he died.

15 When Mahalalel had lived 65 years, he became the father of Jared. 16 And after he became the father of Jared, Mahalalel lived 830 years and had other sons and daughters. 17 Altogether, Mahalalel lived 895 years, and then he died.

18 When Jared had lived 162 years, he became the father of Enoch. 19 And after he became the father of Enoch, Jared lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 20 Altogether, Jared lived 962 years, and then he died.

21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. 22 And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years. 24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

25 When Methuselah had lived 187 years, he became the father of Lamech. 26 And after he became the father of Lamech, Methuselah lived 782 years and had other sons and daughters. 27 Altogether, Methuselah lived 969 years, and then he died.

28 When Lamech had lived 182 years, he had a son. 29 He named him Noah [g] and said, "He will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the LORD has cursed." 30 After Noah was born, Lamech lived 595 years and had other sons and daughters. 31 Altogether, Lamech lived 777 years, and then he died.

32 After Noah was 500 years old, he became the father of Shem, Ham and Japheth.

Footnotes:
a Genesis 4:22 Or who instructed all who work in
b Genesis 4:23 Or I will kill
c Genesis 4:25 Seth probably means granted.
d Genesis 4:26 Or to proclaim
e Genesis 5:2 Hebrew adam
f Genesis 5:6 Father may mean ancestor; also in verses 7-26.
g Genesis 5:29 Noah sounds like the Hebrew for comfort.

Have limited time so will only note that verse 4:19-22 seems to suggest the emergence of a caste system, a division between the muscians (does this imply music in the artistic sense, or more music for worship?) and those in charge of livestock (i.e. offerings).

I'd also like to note the seven vs seventy seven thing. Lamech represents the seventh generation since Adam, and commits the same crime as abel (thus presumably the 7 times punishment for vengence). Seven plus seven = seventy seven. Does anyone know what base the ancient hebrew numeric system was? I know it was based around their alphabet, but does 7 x 7 = 77 make any other mathematical sense apart from being two 7s side by side?

Enoch - walked with God, then was taken away.

Methuselah - the saddest story in the bible. Lived the longest but did nothing worth mention bar siring Lamech.

Finally, look at the lineages
Adam
Cain
Enoch
Irad
Mehujael
Methushael
Lamech
Jabal, zillah & tubal-cain

and

Adam
Seth
Enosh
Kenan
Mahalalel
Jared
Enoch
Methuselah
Lamech
Noah

Two Enochs, two Lamechs. Significance or mixup?
 
 
grant
17:43 / 30.03.07
Three, if you count Enosh.
There's also a town named after one of them.

* The phrase "walking with God" is much debated in some circles. What does it mean? (The apocryphal Book of Enoch, which is quoted in the New Testament and is thus a little less apocryphal than some, reveals that Enoch was taken into Heaven and turned into an angel. What this means is also a subject of debate.)

* "Began to call on the Name of God" -- does this mark the beginning of prayer? Because before that God was just hanging around and you could talk to Him directly?
 
 
EvskiG
18:27 / 30.03.07
Interesting modern translation!

Does anyone know what base the ancient hebrew numeric system was?

Base 10, sorta. Here's a Hebrew clock.

I know it was based around their alphabet, but does 7 x 7 = 77 make any other mathematical sense apart from being two 7s side by side?

It's not two 7s side by side. It's Ayin (70) Zayin (7): עז

23 Lamech said to his wives,
"Adah and Zillah, listen to me;
wives of Lamech, hear my words.
I have killed a man for wounding me,
a young man for injuring me.

24 If Cain is avenged seven times,
then Lamech seventy-seven times."


There's an interpretation here that because Cain killed Abel, God ordained that his descendants would die out within seven generations. (None of Cain's descendants were said to survive the Flood.) Lamech was said to have killed accidentally, so he wanted his descendants to last 11 times as long.

Here's the story:

"Lemech was blind, and Tubal-cain was leading him. He spotted Cain, who appeared to him as an animal, and he told his father to draw the bow, and he killed him. As soon as he learned that it was his grandfather Cain, he clapped his hands together [in anguish] and clapped his son between them and killed him."

As for those two wives: according to a traditional interpretation, men before the Flood generally had two wives -- one for pleasure and one for children:

"So was the custom of the generation of the Flood, one [wife] for propagation and one for marital relations. The one who was for marital relations would be given a potion of roots to drink, so that she should become sterile and he would adorn her like a bride and feed her delicacies, but her companion was neglected and was mourning like a widow."

Enoch - walked with God, then was taken away.

As previously noted, the Book(s) of Enoch are pretty damned weird. Lots of mystical stuff about heaven and angels.

Finally, look at the lineages

They're often thought to be two different and somewhat inconsistent versions of the same genealogy. They're also considered by some to be modeled on Babylonian King Lists.

He named him Noah and said, "He will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the LORD has cursed."

Another (weak) Hebrew play on words here: "Noah" and "nacham" (comfort).

After Noah was 500 years old, he became the father of Shem, Ham and Japheth.

Notice younger brother Shem is listed first instead of Japheth. This is supposedly because he was the most righteous and the ancestor of Abraham.
 
 
EvskiG
18:36 / 30.03.07
At that time men began to call on the name of the LORD.

This means that at that time people began to call God by the name YHVH rather than another name.

Of course, this is semi-inconsistent with Exodus 6:2-3, where God informed Moses that he was YHVH, but said he hadn't told that name to Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob.

(Both this line and Exodus 6:2-3 might be an attempt by the authors to reconcile the worship of El/Elohim with Yahweh.)
 
 
grant
23:13 / 30.03.07
This is supposedly because he was the most righteous and the ancestor of Abraham.

Just for the peanut gallery, "Shem" is where we get the word "Semite" from. It's important -- one of the things Genesis does is set up these concentric categories of God's people: Semites, Jews, Hebrews, Israelites, etc. They overlap but aren't identical by any means.

On the "name of God" thing -- is that reading based on the original Hebrew, or on a traditional interpretation, or what? It makes sense, but it ruins my beautiful theory!
 
 
EvskiG
11:34 / 31.03.07
On the "name of God" thing -- is that reading based on the original Hebrew, or on a traditional interpretation, or what? It makes sense, but it ruins my beautiful theory!

Got it from the Oxford Bible Commentary noted above (er . . . in the other linked topic), plus a quick review of the Hebrew.
 
 
jentacular dreams
14:32 / 01.04.07
Grant - Enosh (also spelled Enos) and Enoch apparently have different meanings.

From Ev-G's link.

[Enoch] was a righteous man, but he could easily be swayed to return to do evil. Therefore, the Holy One, blessed be He, hastened and took him away and caused him to die before his time. For this reason, Scripture changed [the wording] in [the account of] his demise and wrote, “and he was no longer” in the world to complete his years. — [from Gen. Rabbah 25:1])

Interestingly, this Enoch (known in Islam as Idris) who could be easily swayed to do evil was then made into an angel (Metatron), who by many traditions, was God's favourite angel.

Is this merely a spiritual/moral tale, that choosing/guarding oneself against doing evil can bring favour with god (or that even those 'inclined' to do evil can become amongst God's favoured)*, or was it more of a metaphor for mankind's (and especially Israel's) place in God's cosmic order? Or if the role as heavenly scribe and advocate of Israel myth is more appropriate, could it be that God saw the way things were going and decided humanity needed a defence attorney?

* the obvious protestant interpretation would be that people need God's intercession to avoid becoming sinful, but with that intercession the saved can stand at his right side.
 
 
jentacular dreams
14:46 / 01.04.07
Oh also note that according to the Enos link call upon the name of the lord is, by Jewish tradition the beginning of people identifying themselves with the Elohim/YHVH God as opposed to 'false idols', or the beginning of profaning in the name of the lord.

That article was sourced from this link, which may prove handy as we go.

http://www.plainbible.com/dictionary/
 
 
EvskiG
13:05 / 02.04.07
To my knowledge the Enoch=Metatron thing only occurs in 3 Enoch, which was (at best) a fifth-sixth century pseudepigraphical work.

It's a classic of Merkabah mysticism, but it's a bit quirky.
 
 
jentacular dreams
17:52 / 02.04.07
Is there any more we feel we can get out of this section or do people want to move onto Noah?
 
 
grant
19:43 / 02.04.07
I'm totally fighting an urge to get into the guts of Enoch's story, but so much of that is extra-textual.

I'll summarize by saying part of the reason it's probably not accepted as canon (by MOST* Christian denominations) is that it tells the story of a human becoming divine, which knocks the Christ story (and is probably a little theologically shaky in mainstream Judaism, too), and that it tells the story of angels, called Watchers, who, uh, against angelic nature had sex with "the Daughters of Men" and made babies, who were referred to as "giants." There are numerous references to giants throughout Genesis and the rest of the Bible, generally as a translation of either Nephilim or Anakim (sons of Anak, who probably weren't descended from the lusty angels).

According to Enoch, the wickedness the Great Flood was intended to wipe out wasn't general immorality, it was washing away the race of angel-human hybrids, who were messing things up for the regular humans God created.

So, uh, that's backstory to some otherwise strange-sounding readings I may blurt out when talking about some parts of the Noah story. (It's also a poetic link between Noah and King David, who slew the giant Goliath, but that's way later.)

As you can tell, I'm fascinated by Enoch, and Enoch.

-----------

* It's part of some Ethiopian Orthodox canons. I think the main way European scholars knew the text before the Dead Sea Scrolls was from some scrolls preserved in North African monasteries. It was also probably viewed as "canon" (or whatever passed for canon) during Christ's ministry, since it's quoted in the New Testament.
 
 
jentacular dreams
10:21 / 03.04.07
So do you feel the term "son of man" is in any way a reference to Jesus not being a child of the nephilim?
 
 
EvskiG
15:06 / 03.04.07
I'm totally fighting an urge to get into the guts of Enoch's story, but so much of that is extra-textual . . . . part of the reason it's probably not accepted as canon . . . is that . . . it tells the story of angels, called Watchers, who, uh, against angelic nature had sex with "the Daughters of Men" and made babies, who were referred to as "giants."

The very next verse (Genesis 6:1-4) IS canon, and tells that very same story.

Here's the KJV:

1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

So once humans start having daughters, the "sons of God" are attracted to them and take some of them as wives. Their children are the heroes of old.

The Hebrew bene ha-elohim literally means "sons of god[s]." Some say this refers to lesser deities in the Ugaritic pantheon (who may be sons of the chief God, El, who became the Hebrew God), some says it refers to angels.

It's pretty hard to explain away, but some say that it refers to the sons of the good (and hence godly) Seth rather than the evil Cain.

God also decides that from now on humans won't have the extended lifespans of the first men, and limits them to a (generous) 120 years.

Some say that God felt threatened by the children of the "Sons of God," and limited their lifespan and caused the Flood to kill them off.
 
 
EvskiG
15:32 / 03.04.07
Oh -- and as Grant noted, the word usually translated as "giants" in Genesis 6:4 is the Hebrew word nephilim (נפלים).
 
 
grant
18:42 / 03.04.07
And for those unfamiliar with the ins and outs of Creationism, the Nephilim, of course, are where dinosaur bones come from. Giants who lived before the Flood!
 
 
EvskiG
11:43 / 04.04.07
Excellent discussion of the bene ha-elohim (בני האלהים) matter, and all of Genesis 6:1-4, here.

A sample:

Essentially, the Ancient Near East was saturated with the theology of a pantheon of gods who were the children of older gods. This suggests that בני האלהים [bene ha-elohim] in Gen 6:2 should be understood to refer a sort of "heavenly assembly" composed of lower-deities. The problems that such an interpretation creates for Biblical monotheism make it fairly obvious why early interpreters took this to refer to angels. The truth is that Israelite religion was very resistant to the idea of Yahweh having any sort of children, and thus the Biblical phrase is always בני האלהים and never בני יהוה [bene YHVH]. The retention of an originally pagan, non-Israelite tradition here required a massive rethinking, which may explain the mutilated form of the narrative. Since Hebrew thought did not allow for a pantheon alongside or even inferior to Yahweh, בני האלהים were understood to be some sort of angelic beings. While this may have been the intention of the author/editor of the Genesis account, who . . . may have even doubted that such an event had truly occurred, it cannot have been the meaning of the original tradition.
 
 
jentacular dreams
21:35 / 06.04.07
Interesting spin from the YL again.

Verse 3: And Jehovah saith, `My Spirit doth not strive in man -- to the age; in their erring they [are] flesh:' and his days have been an hundred and twenty years.

4 The fallen ones were in the earth in those days, and even afterwards when sons of God come in unto daughters of men, and they have borne to them -- they [are] the heroes, who, from of old, [are] the men of name.


So from this translation - the Lord laments the immorality of mankind (which is linked to their flesh), and their lack of holy zeal.

Or possibly says that the older people get the worse they become, so their age will be limited to avoid the worst excesses?
 
 
jentacular dreams
21:37 / 06.04.07
The last point is especially interesting, given that mankind was kicked out of eden apparently to avoid our gaining immortality. Is this in a way something similar?
 
 
grant
01:27 / 07.04.07
Or possibly says that the older people get the worse they become, so their age will be limited to avoid the worst excesses?

Jumping ahead in the story again, this is exactly what happens to Solomon. He was the wisest of kings, and was more suited than David to build/pray in the Temple (God's House on Earth). But late in his life, he turns to false gods and strange practices, the story goes. Bit of a downer ending, actually.
 
 
grant
19:52 / 17.04.07
NOAH AND HIS ARK
God changes His mind, then changes it again.

When the LORD saw how great was man's wickedness on earth, and how no desire that his heart conceived was ever anything but evil,
6
he regretted that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was grieved.
7
So the LORD said: "I will wipe out from the earth the men whom I have created, and not only the men, but also the beasts and the creeping things and the birds of the air, for I am sorry that I made them."
8
But Noah found favor with the LORD.
9
These are the descendants of Noah. Noah, a good man and blameless in that age,
10
for he walked with God, begot three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
11
In the eyes of God the earth was corrupt and full of lawlessness.
12
When God saw how corrupt the earth had become, since all mortals led depraved lives on earth,
13
he said to Noah: "I have decided to put an end to all mortals on earth; the earth is full of lawlessness because of them. So I will destroy them and all life on earth.


The notes to the Flood story in the NAB are probably not what many readers would expect to find in a mainstream Bible. Goes out of the way to point out inconsistencies in the telling of the tale, and mentions the Flood story in Gilgamesh as a probable source.

Measurements for the Ark:
Approximately 440 x 73 x 44 feet. The Babylonian version was a big floating cube, so let's hear it for the Jewish shipwrights.

Material:
Gopherwood. Nobody knows what that is. Perhaps Noah built his ark with actual gophers.

Reason for the Flood:
God's regret. Specifically, the Creator's regret that everything He makes turns out wrong.

"I can't do ANYTHING right!" God fumes. "Might as well JUST GIVE UP and TOSS IT ALL IN THE RIVER."

Poor God.
 
 
Princess
20:15 / 17.04.07
See, what I found interesting in this is that God looks unreasonable again. Humans are awful so I'm going to kill the cows and trees too? I don't know, it just seems a bit, silly. It just doesn't seem to be the same as New Testament God.

Although, I've just read an interesting thing by a self styled Christian mystic who said the Bible isn't really an account of God's changing opinion on humanity, it's really an account of humanity's slow education on the nature of God. Which, personally, I think is an interesting take.
 
 
EvskiG
21:12 / 17.04.07
The proper Hebrew name of our current protagonist is Noach (נח) (No-ach).

"Gopher" is a transliteration of the Hebrew word goper (גפר) -- cypress, I think.

The Mesopotamian stories of the Flood are Tablet III of the Atrahasis and Tablet XI of the Epic of Gilgamesh. Interestingly, in those stories the gods destroy humanity because they're too damned noisy (and reproduce like bunnies).

God shifts from YHVH to Elohim as the authors merge the J and P versions of the story.

Agree with Princess on the unreasonableness of God here, punishing animals. There's a Jewish teaching that Genesis 6:12 ("All flesh had corrupted its way on the earth") means that "even cattle, beasts, and fowl would mate with those who were not of their own species." [Tan. Noach 12]

Damned pervert cows and chickens got what was coming to them . . .

Big dispute over Noah's righteousness, too. (Genesis 6:9: "Noah was a righteous man, perfect in his generations.") Some say "[i]f he was righteous in his generation then certainly he would have been even more righteous if he would have been in a generation of righteous people." Others say that "in relation to his generation he was righteous, but had he been in Abraham's generation, he wouldn't have been regarded as anything."

Love this classic comment: "Why was the generation of the Flood utterly destroyed, but not the generation of the Tower [of Babel]? Because the generation of the Flood were consumed by robbery and violence, while amongst the generation of the Tower love prevailed." (Midrash Rabbah)

And this one, too: when God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh is come before Me," Noah did not pray for mercy for the world, like Abraham for Sodom. This makes Noah culpable, because he did not appeal to God for mercy on the world's behalf. (Zohar)

Lots of cool stuff coming up.

But just to skip ahead a bit, I thought this modern comment on one element of the story is fascinating:

"The rainbow, of course, is a natural phenomenon. Rays of sunlight pass through water droplets suspended in the atmosphere; the clear, crystal-like droplets refract the light, unleashing the spectrum of colors it contains and displaying them in an arc across the misty skies.

Yet before the Flood, this natural occurrence did not occur. There was something about the interaction between the moisture in the earth's atmosphere and the light emanating from the sun that failed to produce a rainbow. It was only after the Flood that the dynamics that create a rainbow were set in place by the Creator as a sign of His newly-formed covenant with His creation."
 
 
EvskiG
21:56 / 17.04.07
I don't know, it just seems a bit, silly. It just doesn't seem to be the same as New Testament God.

Of course, unlike the New Testament God or even Jesus (e.g., Matthew 5:22-29, 10:28, 13:42-50), this God doesn't damn unbelievers and the wicked to eternal torment in Hell.

Your call whether drowning or never-ending torture is worse.
 
 
grant
17:51 / 19.04.07
That rainbow comment is gorgeous.
 
 
EvskiG
20:09 / 19.04.07
Onward!

From the King James Version:

14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.

16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.

22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

This strikes me as the single most improbable story in the Bible (which is saying a lot), simply because of the logistics involved.

We've already addressed the "gopher" or goper wood. Looks like no one actually knows what the word גפר meant. Best guesses are cedar, "squared timber," "smoothed wood," cypress, pine, or laminated wood. Notably, goper (גפר) rhymes with "pitch" (כפר), which also appears in Genesis 6:14, so there's another play on words here.

There's a tradition that God required Moses to plant cedar trees for the wood, then harvest them only after they were fully grown 120 years later. This gave humanity time to repent (which it didn't, of course).

The word ark (teba, actually) is used only twice in the Bible: here and to describe the basket in which Moses is stashed as a child.

The construction of the ark is pretty ridiculous -- as Grant observed, it's a big-ass box. There's one tradition that the skylight was a glowing jewel rather than a window.

Here we see God commanding Noah to take two of every animal. Later we'll see him command Noah to take two of every unclean animal, and seven of every clean animal (the extras are for sacrifices). Of course, there's a paradox here, because God hadn't yet informed Moses which animals were clean and which weren't.

According to one tradition, the clean animals bowed to Noah as they entered the ark. According to another, the ark magically only allowed one pair of each of the unclean animals in.
 
 
grant
16:48 / 01.05.07
So what's up next?
 
 
EvskiG
15:48 / 02.05.07
If people still are interested in discussing the Bible, I'm up for continuing with either Noah or another book.

Some suggestions: Mark (the oldest Gospel), Job, Esther, the stories of Babel, Abraham, or Joseph, or maybe something far out like Enoch or the Gospel of Thomas.

(I assume no one objects to a non-Genesis discussion in this topic.)

Any thoughts?
 
 
grant
15:49 / 02.05.07
Points in the next bit (Genesis 7) that I find compelling:

One -- a specific date for the Flood.
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month: it was on that day that All the fountains of the great abyss burst forth, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.


What's the point of naming that date?

Two -- the "breath of life". Should that phrase be meaning something other than the obvious?

15 Pairs of all creatures in which there was the breath of life entered the ark with Noah.

22 Everything on dry land with the faintest breath of life in its nostrils died out.


I'm wondering if there might be some theological legalese there about animals without breath, or a double meaning to breath (as spirit?) that leaves certain beasts out.

It's also interesting that the 150 days of flood (40 days of rain, 150 days of standing water) are ended in Genesis 8 with wind, just like in the beginning of everything.

There's more calendrical stuff in there, as well as the story of the raven (which keeps flying until land appears) and the dove (which comes home to roost until seven days have passed, when Noah lets it go and In the evening the dove came back to him, and there in its bill was a plucked-off olive leaf! So Noah knew that the waters had lessened on the earth.).

Which is a nice story.

Chapter 8 ends with what I think is the first burnt offering, isn't it?

The sweet smell of "clean" animals burning is what prompts God to forgive the sins of humanity because the desires of man's heart are evil from the start (literally "from his youth," and it's unclear whether that means the dawn of humankind or the callow teen years).

Burnt offerings seem a little freaky to this modern reader.
 
 
grant
15:50 / 02.05.07
Heh -- heck of cross-post there.

Obviously, I'm up for continuing with Noah then seeing what the rest of Genesis offers.
 
 
Princess
16:14 / 02.05.07
I'd be up for continuing to go through Genesis in this thread. But would anyone mind if I started up a study thread for a new testament book as well? I want to have a look at thi Jesus dude everyones allways on about.
 
 
grant
16:25 / 02.05.07
Sounds good to me!
 
 
EvskiG
19:20 / 02.05.07
Chapter 8 ends with what I think is the first burnt offering, isn't it?

More than that -- it's where God ends vegetarianism and permits people to eat meat:

Genesis 9:

3 Every moving thing that lives shall be yours to eat; like the green vegetation, I have given you everything.

4 But, flesh with its soul, its blood, you shall not eat.

This is why some observant Jews won't eat red meat unless it's well-done (so all the blood has been cooked out).

The sacrifices were, of course, from the seven pairs of clean animals.

The Story of Gilgamesh has a similar burnt offering after the Flood, where the gods "smelled the savor" and "crowded like flies around the sacrificer." Ick.

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month: it was on that day that All the fountains of the great abyss burst forth, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.

What's the point of naming that date?


According to Rashi, that's seven days after Methusaleh died (based on his lifespan earlier in Genesis). Because Methusaleh was righteous, the world gets a 7 day mourning period as a reprieve.

Two -- the "breath of life". Should that phrase be meaning something other than the obvious?

Super-cool and very poetic term here: ruach chayyim : רוח חיים. Chayyim means "life" (as in Tree of Life), Ruach means wind, breath, soul, and spirit. Ruach also is the term used in Genesis 1 for God's breath moving over the waters before creation, and in Genesis 8 for the wind that ends the flood.

It's also interesting that the 150 days of flood (40 days of rain, 150 days of standing water)

It's a year in total -- 365 days. 40 days of rain, 150 days of standing water, 16 until the ark came to rest upon "the mountains of Ararat," another 44 days for the mountain peaks to become visible, Noah waits another 40 days, sends a raven, sends a dove a week later, then again a week later, then a week later again. Then Noah waits until "the first day of the first month" -- 307 days after the rains began -- for the water to completely drain. Then it takes 57 days for the surface of the earth to dry. Then, on the 27th day of the second month, God says to leave the ark.

Another thing I like:

All the fountains of the great abyss burst forth, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.

The water of the Flood comes from two sources: the abyss at the bottom of the sea, and from above the dome created on the second day of creation to separate water from water.
 
 
grant
19:22 / 02.05.07
Yeah, I love that there's water above and water below....

We're just a bubble.
 
 
EvskiG
19:30 / 02.05.07
For those who care about such things, here's an article about how the flood could start on the 17th day of the second month, last 365 days, and end on the 27th day of the second month.
 
 
grant
00:19 / 03.05.07
A basic tenet of Chassidic teaching is that the Torah is eternal, its "historical" events ever-present realities in our lives. Noah's Flood is the prototype for a challenge which we all face: the flood of material concerns which threatens to quench the flame of spiritual striving we harbor in our souls.

Sometimes, I just love the Chassidim.
 
  

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