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What to do about fight-prone friends

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Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

01:34 / 05.03.07

I just recieved a call from my buddy detailing how he beat the crap out of some kid at a party. It started normally, each guy talking shit while drunk, and then my buddy (former marine and general asshole) hit the kid so hard he may have broken a cheek bone underneath the kid's eye. It wasn't a suckerpunch or anything, but it may not have been a "fair fight", so to speak.

I say "kid" but they're all twenty somethings. Anyway, when he told me, apparently full of pride, all I could think to say was "well, good for you, sorry I missed your moment". Then I realized maybe offering positive reinforcement was not a good idea. What if the nebulous ethics of the situation confused him, and he was actually looking for moral clarification?

I'm used to having violent friends. I'm not sure how it happened, but I ended up with more than my fair share. Most of them have since recognized that they are something of a public danger when they're drunk and take steps to avoid getting in fights (unless they feel the guy really has it coming, or one of their friends is in for a beating). This particular friend is different: he has actual violent urges, I think, perhaps stemming from his time in the military plus a fairly agressive personality. WHich is not to say he's just a bully, or that he never recieves a righteous kicking (he's been hospitalized for mouthing off to the wrong people, the sort of wrong people who carry brass knuckles and aren't afraid to wail on a 19-year old kid, which is how old he was at the time of the beating).

I know I'm not responsible for his actions, but I'd like to keep the next guy he gets in a fight with from having his face broken.

At any rate, even though I don't think I handled the situation right, I can't think of anything else to say to him. "These things happen; next time try not to break the dude's face" sounds weird, plus it's asking him to walk a fine line, something I'm not sure he's capable of.

Anyway. How do you sort out a fight prone friend?

07:07 / 05.03.07

I don't think you can manage or effect other people's behaviour that much. Either put up with it, or dump him. You could talk to him, but how likely is he to accept it? Perhaps telling him honestly how you feel might unburden you though.

It's possible he'll change as he gets older if he gets a girlfriend, has kids or a job that he likes too much to lose. But I don't think you can force these changes on him.

I have a mate who's similar and the only thing that stops him is fear of legal consequences. And even that's not failsafe. He attacked someone last time we were out. I don't live near him anymore, so I don't see him very much. That kind of solves that problem.

07:18 / 05.03.07

I think, perhaps stemming from his time in the military plus a fairly agressive personality.

It's a tough situation to be in. Talking to him about it might be an idea though. Personally I would point out to him that, as a former marine, he could easily get into serious trouble when (and it is a case of when, not if) he hits someone too hard.

I don't personally believe in attacking someone because they're "asking for it". Dumb male pride is no reason to get physical. My own personal belief is that I'll only fight when it is absolutely necessary, not just because someone's calling me names.

If he's got violent urges then he seriously needs to consider doing something to control them otherwise he could well end up pissing a life away (his own or someone else's) just because he's had one too many.

jentacular dreams

09:18 / 05.03.07

Does your friend have any other outlet for these urges? Was he as bad for example when he was a marine? Does he feel any guilt afterwards, or is it 'all in the past'? Is he usually somewhat innebriated or does it happen when sober too? Has he ever hit a friend?

I ask because one of my friends is a recovering/alcoholic who gets into drunken fights (often with numeous policemen) fairly regularly. About once a year though he'll end up trying to have a fight with one of our friends (me included), and always feels like shit the next day. The guilt is usually enough to keep him from drinking for a fair while, but he always gets back into it with other people eventually. Admittedly your situation seems quite different, though my friend, when he's in that situation and feeling aggressive tends to try to escalate tensions to the point when he feels he can justify (at the time) lashing out to himself. Does yours do the same?

I think eggs is right though, you can't control him or his urges. The only person who can even try is your friend himself. Talking with him may help him see that it is a problem, and encourage him to take steps to control it, and you and his other friends can help to an extent by trying to steer him out of those situations when you sense them coming (as I imagine you do already). But no-one else can control it for him.

And ultimately, it's not acceptable behaviour for society, and if it continues then at some point society will have him removed for its own protection.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

09:34 / 05.03.07

Sounds like a pretty grim situation to be in, TG. You have my sympathies. These guys are right--you can't change people's behaviour if they don't want it changed (and maybe even if they do). Since your mate is an adult, your responsibility to the guy is limited to maybe suggesting that find an outlet that doesn't involve fractured cheekbones before he ends up in gaol, or worse.

11:03 / 05.03.07

He phoned you up to brag about it? Ditch him. It doesn't sound like he sees it as a problem, in fact it sounds like he's proud of his habit of punching people. One day he's punch someone with a knife or gun, that might wake him up.

Tryphena Absent

11:56 / 05.03.07

"These things happen; next time try not to break the dude's face"

That's pretty much word for word what I've said to friends in the past, usually followed by "and why did you have to hit the poor bastard in the first place?"

14:11 / 05.03.07

My close friends all carry utiliy knives in their pockets, a sense of duty regarding intervention of public abuses, and many of us have some fairly nasty histories of personal violence. Yet as a collective we brag about the fights we didn't get into, tensions we defused, safe passage we offered vulnerable people, and not a little of the mind fucks we played on the single minded bullies we run into.

We judge each other based on courage and thoughtfulness not brutish violence. Yet each one of us is a vicious rage prone maniac held in check even when drunk (to some degree) by compassion. That shithead you want to beat down maybe the only person who stops by to help his grandmother get groceries, or has a child to feed. Every fight can lead to death and its consquences and viewed that what many times it makes more sense to walk away or find a more imaginative way to resolve the conflict.

Anyone too stupid to understand that fighting can lead to killing in mere seconds is a liability to your own safety.

14:13 / 05.03.07

Also, I think 'fight-prone' is a bit of a misnomer. I'm prone to hayfever allergies. I do not go looking for hayfever.

jentacular dreams

14:22 / 05.03.07

< semantic threadrot > But your immune system does < /semantic threadrot >

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:26 / 05.03.07

Yet each one of us is a vicious rage prone maniac held in check even when drunk (to some degree) by compassion.

In that case, can I suggest you leave the knives at home? I mean, really?

14:56 / 05.03.07

In that case, can I suggest you leave the knives at home? I mean, really?

heh, but I have a server cardboard box here I have to open and you know accidents can happen with rope in my life. Besides if I really wanted to fuck someone up I can't really leave my thumbs at home.

The point is the tool* does not make one dangerous the willingness to use it as a weapon does. The body alone can cause vast amounts of damage.

*tools designed to primarily be weapons such as guns are not in my reality in the same category.

Ex

15:05 / 05.03.07

Yeah, but if I stick my thumb in someone's tummy, they'll go 'ouch, you rotter' and no further surgery will be needed.

Ex

15:06 / 05.03.07

(Funnily enough, I accidentally took the top off my thumb, with a knife, yesterday, so I'm avoiding the use of both for a bit.)

Less searchable M0rd4nt

15:09 / 05.03.07

It's also a lot harder for your foe to take away your thumb and use it against you.

Tryphena Absent

15:19 / 05.03.07

Basically what I think we're all trying to say is if no one carried a knife then no one could ever pull a knife on us... or something.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

15:26 / 05.03.07

Well, sort of. What I'm trying to say is that I'm not a very nice person either, and that whilst--touch wood--my not-very-niceness has thus far tended to manifest as shouting, sulking and kicking inanimate objects* rather than outright violence, the precence or abscence of a utility knife in my pocket may mean the difference between my looking very silly and swiftly getting my ass handed to me, and my actually managing to do something regrettable before the inevitable ass-handage.

*Some people speak of the inner beast as Wolf; some speak of it as Dragon. I have an Inner Two-Year-Old. Fear me.

miss wonderstarr

15:39 / 05.03.07

the difference between my looking very silly and swiftly getting my ass handed to me, and my actually managing to do something regrettable before the inevitable ass-handage.

Or the difference between getting your ass handed to you, and having your belly opened up with your own blade. Something like that. What I mean, of course, is that if you bring a knife to a fight, you're making it a knife fight.

Alternatively, you could get arrested, which would be pretty bad also.

15:46 / 05.03.07

I don't use my knife for violence I brought it up in my original post to point out that in my community not fighting is the point of pride. However I do use my knife for opening things, cutting food, and emergency rope cutting. I'm not worried about someone taking it away from me in a fight because I'm not going to use it in a fight unless my life is at risk in which case my opponent already has something as dangerous as a knife in play. I will however use my thumbs to take out an eye or assist in crushing a windpipe if I am attacked. My focus is on not being attacked in the first place but if it does happen I'm prepared to defend myself with whatever is to hand.

When on an airplane I'm more likely to be annoyed that I can't cut my yarn because I don't have my knife than worry about being defenseless. If you think what makes people dangerous is their tools you're not paying attention. Unmanaged aggression and lack of proper conflict resolution is far more likely to lead to a hospital visit than a swiss army knife. I've seen more bar fights use glass than knives with major damage over the cuts.

What makes me dangerous isn't what's in my pocket it's how I'm valuing other people. As I personally tend to value them a great deal the reasons for inflicting harm on them without consent are extraordinary. You can leave the knife at home but if you don't also leave the hatred of other people there you've still got the more deadly weapon with you.

15:48 / 05.03.07

Besides if I really wanted to fuck someone up I can't really leave my thumbs at home.

If you can do BRUTUAL damage with your body then why not leave the knives?

15:49 / 05.03.07

Thanks, XK. I think you've answered my point there already.

miss wonderstarr

15:51 / 05.03.07

You've clearly got a sound attitude, XK, and have thought about this thoroughly ~ and could also probably take out my one good eye, so I don't want to argue too much with you.

But, while I assume you do have significant experience of "street fighting" ~

I'm not worried about someone taking it away from me in a fight because I'm not going to use it in a fight unless my life is at risk in which case my opponent already has something as dangerous as a knife in play.

~ this seems to assume that something can only be used against you if you choose to take it out and enter it "into play". (I don't mean to pick on that term, but it sounds like part of a war game strategy.) Just as someone can get my iPod whether I want to bring it out of my pocket or not, I'd think someone patting me down and trying to steal my possessions could bring that knife out themselves.

Also, I don't know much about your lifestyle and it may be very different to mine. But I can count the number of occasions when I wish I had a knife to cut rope on the fingers of my left foot. Is cutting thick rope a pressing need in most people's lives? And for what it's worth, is that a valid legal reason for carrying?

16:04 / 05.03.07

I think there is also a somewhat different perception of fighting happening here. In my close community all efforts are made to avoid physical confrontation because it isn't viewed as a sport. It's the last resort of desperation because your life is at stake. Not pride, not social standing, and not over the contents of your wallet.

We carry knives not in case we get into a fight and I brought it up to illustrate why they stay in our pockets during conflict.

We don't get into yelling matches and chest puffing and toddler-esque bouts of rage frivilously because we know the risks involved are not getting punched in the head or thrown down stairs. Every fight you enter into with any stranger is putting your life on the line. You don't know what is in their pocket or head.

If I cross a street at night to ask two strangers why one of them is screaming I'm weighing my social obligation against knowing I could get shot for just asking. However I personally will not place my own safety over that social obligation.

Every physical fight can lead to someone being dead not just cut, not just with a black eye, and not just with a bruised ego. Therefore the greater effort needs to be placed on avoiding the physical fight entirely while still upholding one's personal standard.

miss wonderstarr

16:10 / 05.03.07

Well, I just don't think I understand the kind of lifestyle or everyday reality you're talking about, XK. It sounds ethically good and noble in some respects, but I don't know anyone who behaves that way and what you're saying has little connection to any violence I've experienced. I'm sure your presence in the world is positive, but I can't really relate to what you're describing.

miss wonderstarr

16:13 / 05.03.07

To answer the original question, I would ditch that friend. I wouldn't want to endorse that kind of behaviour with my friendship.

16:20 / 05.03.07

Also, I don't know much about your lifestyle and it may be very different to mine. But I can count the number of occasions when I wish I had a knife to cut rope on the fingers of my left foot. Is cutting thick rope a pressing need in most people's lives? And for what it's worth, is that a valid legal reason for carrying?

I'm involved with rope suspension work on a regular enough basis to need it and while safety sheers are present having another option is sound. Here in the States my utility knife is legal and many people carry them.

~ this seems to assume that something can only be used against you if you choose to take it out and enter it "into play". (I don't mean to pick on that term, but it sounds like part of a war game strategy.) Just as someone can get my iPod whether I want to bring it out of my pocket or not, I'd think someone patting me down and trying to steal my possessions could bring that knife out themselves.

If an officer of the law is patting me down they are already carrying a lot more dangerous weapons than my pocket knife. If someone not in law inforcement is patting me down I will be seriously considering my life at risk to be in that situation. How they got me into that position was probably with something much scarier than my pocket knife.

The knife is really a red herring as if someone is going to take it away and use it on me without me brandishing it at them first I have to assume they already had the intent to harm me. If I am using all of my abilities for conflict resolution and cannot defuse the situation I will protect myself and other vulnerable people.

(Is this the point where I get keys to the Amoury or what?)

16:26 / 05.03.07

I'd ditch the friend too. By the sound of things, hanging about with this person might result in a head-kicking as a result of one of his fights.

I'm lucky that none of my friends are remotely violent, or have never been in a fight. One of my friends was chased by some guy who wanted to beat the snot out of him for some reason, but instead of engaging the pursuer he just legged it to safety.

Some of the experiences described here, where a fight is made to sound inevitable as soon as one leaves the house sound incredibly unreal to me. I'm not denying that these things have happened to the people describing them, but I just can't relate them to my own experiences.

I feel like I live an incredibly sheltered life (even when I don't) compared to knife wielding magic-users or ex-marine chaps with noticeable anger issues.

16:28 / 05.03.07

Well, I just don't think I understand the kind of lifestyle or everyday reality you're talking about, XK. It sounds ethically good and noble in some respects, but I don't know anyone who behaves that way and what you're saying has little connection to any violence I've experienced. I'm sure your presence in the world is positive, but I can't really relate to what you're describing.

It's true we've had very different experiences. My experience with violence is either with people who are either drunk/stupid acting out thoughtlessly or with mentally unbalanced rage and hatred. In the first case nothing is lost by walking away in the second one must determine the best course for survival. Violence is not a point of pride but rather a sign of failure.

miss wonderstarr

16:33 / 05.03.07

My experience with violence is either with people who are either drunk/stupid acting out thoughtlessly or with mentally unbalanced rage and hatred.

I'd say my experience of violence is mostly the same, but my response to it is generally based on trying fairly desperately and by any means possible to get away from people who outnumber and outgun me, rather than anything as coolly considered, socially responsible and confidently powerful as the stance you're representing.

16:34 / 05.03.07

knife wielding magic-users

I'm not comfortable with my efforts to have a thoughtful exchange reduced to this description. I find it dismissive and two dimensional especially as nowhere in this thread has magic been part of the discussion. I read it as an attempt to dismiss my voice as nonvalid by framing me in an absurd manner.

16:39 / 05.03.07

rather than anything as coolly considered, socially responsible and confidently powerful as the stance you're representing.

Ah well as stated upthread as the one with the anger mangement concerns it is my responsibility to have myself in hand. Therefore I need to be socially responsible and thoughtful about how I manifest in the world. These are coping mechanisms not social ideals.

16:54 / 05.03.07

I'm not comfortable with my efforts to have a thoughtful exchange reduced to this description. I find it dismissive and two dimensional especially as nowhere in this thread has magic been part of the discussion. I read it as an attempt to dismiss my voice as nonvalid by framing me in an absurd manner.

I apologise for causing you discomfort with my closing sentence. I didn't mean to dismiss your voice as non-valid, as I have a great deal of respect for you as a poster, and a lot of interest in your contributions to the board. My intention with the "knife wielding magic user," stuff was to frame the violent situations which you have occasionally found yourself in as absurd in comparison to my own social situations, in which I've never experienced violenced. I rather hastily and evidently stupidly threw in the magic user remark as I mostly read your contributions to the Temple, and that's one of the ways that I view you on the board.

Just like a lot of people probably view me as the guy who likes Doctor Who a little too much.

I'm afraid that it's one of those times that I probably should have read what I was about to post more carefully, and I regret causing you to be uncomfortable in a discussion where you contributions have been more valid than mine, due to your first hand experience with violence.

17:24 / 05.03.07

XK, I appreciate that this might be getting a little personal, but I feel compelled to ask whether your BDSM experience has given you, for lack of a better word, something akin to less fear of violence.

I understand that this is complicated territory, and that street violence almost certanly differs in many, many ways from your BDSM practice.

18:03 / 05.03.07

XK, I appreciate that this might be getting a little personal, but I feel compelled to ask whether your BDSM experience has given you, for lack of a better word, something akin to less fear of violence.

Actually it has increased my understanding of how fear promotes violence and how that expression is not always directed appropriately. BDSM may be better viewed as my sport of choice. Like many contact sports there is some inherent violence but the players are shielded from the greater part of it by rules and the sense of shared choice. I would rephrase your question to anyone who played rugby. True violence does not obey the rules and therefore one experience cannot completely inform the other.

I understand that this is complicated territory, and that street violence almost certanly differs in many, many ways from your BDSM practice.

Sadly I have had a goodly chuck of IRL violence in my life and what it has done has removed any illusion that you can have civilized fighting outside of a sport. People who engage in bar fights or weekend fights with strangers at parties are gambling with mortality. All it takes is one solid blow to the right part of the head or wrong kind of fall and someone is dead or maimed for life. What verbal insult is worth a return like that? Or if not anything so epic why be so owned by your hatred as to make stupid choices?

Yet our culture promotes it in entertainment as something you can get up and walk away from leaving no mark external or internal. Just a plot device. This is why when I get into conversations about implements I try to draw people's attention to what are we doing as a society about promoting violence and not training people in coping mechanisms. It's about learning appropriate responses at appropriate times not limiting people's access to various household tools.

I'm learning Aikido and I selected it from other martial arts in part because it's centered on nonviolence. It's not about harming your attacker but rendering them unable to harm you. Plus it is a huge amount fun to be flung and fling people around a room on big padded mats. If anything Aikido is more likely to remove some of my fear of violence by putting me in the path of more street like attacks on the mat.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

21:16 / 05.03.07

Does your friend have any other outlet for these urges?

Yes, he trains for professional fighting on and off. He doesn't actually fight professionally, largely because of time and he knows he's not nearly good enough.

Was he as bad for example when he was a marine?

As far as I can tell, no. I mean, I don't think he was court marshalled, but I'm not exactly clear on why or how he left. I know it was for the most part because he had absolutely zero desire to go to Iraq or Afghanistan, which made him pretty unpopular to his superiors. He was only in for two years so his gig might've simply ended.

Does he feel any guilt afterwards, or is it 'all in the past'? Is he usually somewhat innebriated or does it happen when sober too? Has he ever hit a friend?

I've seen no outwards signs of guilt, but he does not attempt to justify his behavior either. That last bit is probably due to the fact that he doesn't view his behavior as unacceptable. He certainly doesn't let on that he finds it poor behavior, anyway. He's gotten in fights with friends before, but that's not very strange in his particular social group from what I gather.

That's pretty much word for word what I've said to friends in the past, usually followed by "and why did you have to hit the poor bastard in the first place?"

Did it help?

By the way, in case I've made it sound like he goes out to picks fights and brags about them later, let me apologize. I wouldn't describe his behavior as "picking fights", he just seems, probably due to his confidence in his combat skills, to have absolutely no qualms about letting an argument reach the level of physical violence. I suppose that if you just enjoy fighting (not neccessarily just beating people up, but also beating them in general, like, competition-wise), you're bound to be okay with getting in a fight.

I don't know. I suppose I might be able to broach the subject from a responsibility angle.

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