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The Great Invisibles Re-Read: Part Two

 
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
Tim Tempest
17:55 / 27.02.07
In this thread, lets try and get some more personal info along with your annotations and thoughts. I want to hear where you people were and what you intially thought reading these issues.

This trade is especially significant to the development of the rest of the Invisibles World outside of the main characters. With Season of Ghouls, Royal Monsters, and Best Man Fall, we have some VERY unique perspectives that we get to ride along with.

And then we enter into Lord Fanny's world...But lets get into that after we discuss 23: Things Fall Apart, and the aforementioned one-shots.
 
 
This Sunday
18:01 / 27.02.07
I'm going to go against the suggested order, above, and just say briefly how nice it was, first reading these issues, and reading them again, how pathetic and annoying Fanny makes just about every other Native character in all comics look. Her magick isn't treated any cleaner or holier or speciously special than any of the other characters. Which, is rare and quite great.

More on the earlier issues later.
 
 
PatrickMM
19:03 / 27.02.07
'Best Man Fall' was the first issue of the series that I really loved. I think the early issues and 'Arcadia' are so dense, as a first time reader, you're just trying to keep up, and aren't always able to just sit back and enjoy them. But, 'Best Man Fall' stops talking about the themes and just shows them. We get totally fractured chronology, mimicing our experience of life from outside time, and in the final pages, the most concise and powerful statement about the similarities between sides. I love the way the exact same panels I thought were incredibly cool on the first read now seem so very cruel. Bobby may have been a bastard at times, but he didn't deserve to die. It's one of the most emotionally raw and powerful things that Morrison has ever written.
 
 
Make me Uncomfortable
20:21 / 27.02.07
"Season of Ghouls" was my first "favorite issue" of the series. The imagery during the entire voodoo deal was incredible- the "good and bad UFOs" fighting, the Arachnid palace, Jim's "Were-spider" outfit, the Ville-Aux-Champs, I was totally swept away.

And in the more "real" parts of the story, the blending of racism, capitalist greed, and magic was equally entrancing. That was the first issue that really showed me how far Morrison had pushed the comic world- spirit magic had real world, Law and Order style consequences. It was OK to mix five different genres.

I have some thoughts on the other issues in Apocalipstick, but I'll save those thoughts for when I can pull them together a little better.
 
 
penitentvandal
12:43 / 28.02.07
Looking back, 'Royal Monsters' was the issue where the hypersigil really grabbed me by the bollocks and started squeezing. Around about the same time as I read it, I found that my (Catholic!) school library had a copy of The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail in the sixth form section, and devoured it whole in about three days, then went on to the rest of the Baigent/Lincoln/Leigh rabid conspiracy ouevre, then started reading books on the Gnostics, found a copy of Liber Kaos at the local Waterstone's and saved up to buy it, then discovered Illuminatus! - entirely because I was looking for something 'a bit like the Invisibles'. Even weirder, iirc the lettercol for 'Royal Monsters' contains a missive from a guy who also wound up going on a wild conspiracy-ride as a result of discovering HBHG, and liked the Invisibles because it reminded him of that, whereas the whole reason I liked HBHG was because it reminded me of the comic. I was, clearly, the thing on the other side of that dude's mirror...

'Sheman' was also a very inspiring read for a high-achieving adolescent bulimic struggling with issues of sexuality, though tragically I wouldn't work up the courage to actually go out wearing nail varnish for another four years. Ashamed to say I fell hook, line and sinker for the King Mob Meme-Infection Module that was 'Entropy in the UK', too - about half of my magickal practice post-2000 and the end of the Invisibles was all about convincing myself that there were valid models for modern magecraft beside being an incredibly stylish but cold-hearted magickal assassin. As always, of course, I hadn't been reading all that closely - there's a reason 'Best Man Fall' comes right before 'Entropy', and it's to innoculate you against the 'King Mob = Cool as Fuck' meme by showing you the other side of what he does. As a callow youth, though, I was too dumb to notice that.

Also: the bit in 'London' where Dane kicks Sir Miles in the gonads was, for me, the first time I found myself liking the character...
 
 
unbecoming
18:57 / 02.03.07
It's certainly an excellent run of issues. what i really like about these arcs is the way that the art very effectively communicates the feel of the writing harks back to the brittish comic tradition by using several 2000ad artists. I really love the development of Sir Miles' character in these issues, his dialogue with Tarquin, Pennington, etc.

I agree with the other commments that Best Man Fall is a beautifully structured comic, definitely among, if not the single best, issue Grant Morrison has written, due to both its internal structure and storytelling and its contextual place within the narrative of the whole series.
 
 
PatrickMM
20:56 / 02.03.07
Velvetvandal, I too fell prey to the King Mob meme infection, the first time, I was just in awe of everything he did. On this read, I wasn't caught up by issue 1, but I just read the first part of Entropy in the UK and it all came back. But, I think Grant himself got just as caught up in the character and his image, to the point that he pretty much hijacks the book from Jack.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
06:15 / 03.03.07
The art's a bit awful though, isn't it?

At this point the rot really started to set in, IMVHO.

If George had had the sense to at least try to sign up decent artists, ie, not Jill Thompson; if the first arc had been drawn by Steve Y, all the way through, then would GM have been reduced to asking the fans that he doesn't seem to like very much any more to indulge in that orgy of morbid self-abuse?

I suspect not.

And there are far greater iniquities yet to come.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
06:31 / 03.03.07
Fans of 'Best Man Falls' might be interested in a screenplay I'm, optimistically, pitching to BBC3, at the moment. Basically, a lot of the ideas in there are things that I'd thought about before I even read the comic, ok!?
 
 
This Sunday
07:09 / 03.03.07
I actually think Jill Thompson is my favorite artist of the whole series. Okeh, Phil Bond. And she's a helluva runner-up. The 'She-Man' arc and 'Best Man Fall' are still more 'Invisibles' to me, I guess, than what came before and all that will come later.

It's interesting to me that, between the Jim Crow issue and 'She-Man' this is a ridiculously monocultural multi-ethnic comic, compared to what else was on the market at the time of original release. Kinda still is.

That said, I don't think Morrison was trying to sleep with black women through a fictional proxy, or even with Jill Thompson through a cyborg author fictional proxy. I don't think the racial portrayals are as bad as some have claimed, or even the racial politics, but the single issue stories do suffer from having an extended cast, and each character is then relegated to the broad-strokes of their persona and life. The ones who stick around, like Boy or Fanny, certaintly aren't entirely stereotyped or operating as placards declaring a racial position or some such racist nonsense.

I like that a few people have admitted to falling under the glorious glamour of King Mob and his ultraviolence, because I really thought he was shit back in the day, and can now look on him with refreshed and sentimental eyes and he's not so bad. I mean, his regular deal is be rich and hurt people, and then, his cover persona is to be an absolute selfish ass of sorts, coping with trauma or no.

And he's not really leading, even here, is he? KM, despite his Big Man suit, seems to be quite at the beck and call of Robin, even this early. Or am I the only one who thinks she trumps him at every turn in these early tales, from their apple-eating intro, through the trip to France and straight out past those little bottom-page Boy & Robin have fun and consume mini-strips?
 
 
unbecoming
16:19 / 03.03.07
If George had had the sense to at least try to sign up decent artists, ie, not Jill Thompson; if the first arc had been drawn by Steve Y, all the way through, then would GM have been reduced to asking the fans that he doesn't seem to like very much any more to indulge in that orgy of morbid self-abuse?

I suspect not.


I suspect that you may be right in that the series' sales probably dwindled due to the over dense approach and not-the-best art in Arcadia but this said, i really like the art in the rest of the first volume, even Ridgeway who is the object of some scorn from many fans.

I think the art works because at this point the series is basically a horror story with hints that it will expand its scope and the art, especially the brittish artists, communicate this effectively through stylistic devices inherited through a brittish tradition.(perhaps it this brittish element that alienated some readers?)


on the King Mob question, this reread has left me feeling a bit at odds with the character. Although KM is given a lot of dialogue and story that either illustrates that he is a callow killer or a guilt wracked human being who just has to get on with it, i wonder if this only servesd to reinforce the cool as fuck element. Even when he is at his lowest ebb in the upcoming entropy trade he still has an ultra cool psychic trap all along and makes a sudden and unconvincing recovery.
 
 
andrewdrilon
16:49 / 03.03.07
The 3-issue Lord Fanny story arc is one of my favorites in the series, and my favorite story in this trade. Funny since I find that it resonates with the first story arc (Jack Frost's 3-issue apprenticeship under Mad Tom), in that both stories are initiations into the world of magic and invisible-ism.

Fanny's journey is flashier and more mythic here, I think, than Jack's initiation, although re-reading this arc, I had to wonder if they were both probably going through essentially the same experience, albeit through different lens. Can anyone find parallels? It just struck me as an odd notion I hadn't really thought of before.
 
 
This Sunday
17:01 / 03.03.07
Both are guiding (by guides, naturally) through the secret otherside of the world. Both must go to death and pass through. Both must learn that life is pain, but life is also laughing, playing, and sometimes being a little bit of a smartass.

It's funny that I, back on the first read, felt much more comfortable with Fanny's initiation, and it was Dane-to-Jack that seemed innovatively strange to me. Non-tradition magick, almost. Made me rethink the way I was approaching a lot of life, with regards to ancestors, inheritence, and that sort of thing; no great shift, in the end, but a little validation.

Which, I should say, is what 'The Invisibles' was about, for me. It was not a headbreaking change-your-whole superrevelatory explosion, but, instead, validation. Demonstration and validation.

I like it that way, too. Headbreaking always seemed overrated.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
18:15 / 03.03.07
I actually think Jill Thompson is my favorite artist of the whole series. Okeh, Phil Bond.

With you on Bond, who should really have been hired to do the whole of volume three - thinking about it now, how 'The Invisibles' is going to possibly impact on future generations, it does seem as if the decision to pick artists apparently pretty much randomly out of the phonebook was, at best, a flawed one.

'Preacher', which is basically a load of terrible bollocks, metaphorically and actually, still stands up reasonably well these days because at least the art was reliable, even if the writing often seemed like the work of a mildly deranged lunatic, but not in an interesting way.

I appreciate that I must sound like Richard Nixon now, but; if George had sat down and planned the whole thing out properly, I can't help feeling that Teh Invisibles would be much more highly regarded than it is at the moment, by anyone, anywhere. - compared to say, 'Watchmen', or 'The Enigma' it reads like the work of someone who was on a lot of drugs at the time, which would have been perfectly all right. had the consequent hallucinations been approached in a vaguely linear fashion, art-wise.

As it is though, George is basically a jobbing writer for DC, these days - I'm not the first to say so, I don't think (although my memory's not what it used to be) but, compare and contrast George's lot (being bothered over the internet about a comic that nobody's very interested in, really) with Alan Moore's (being bothered over the internet about a comic that everyone who's anyone is terribly excited about, in, er, well a small world anyway,) and it seems as if George could have handled things a bit differently, to his advantage.
 
 
PatrickMM
21:46 / 03.03.07
IMO, Thompson is much better than Yeowell, and it's not until Sheman that I feel like the characters really define themselves. Look at Yeowell's Fanny from the first couple of issues, she barely resembles the character she'll eventually become.

I think that the art problems of the series have been exaggerated a bit, the art jam at the end of Volume III is a complete mess, but other than that, it feels like the artists generally fit well with the story they're telling. Ridgway defines Sir Miles for me, I think his art is perfect for 'Royal Monsters,' and Jill Thompson's work on 'Sheman' is also fantastic.

I'm not sure if it's a case of me just accepting that this is what the art has to look like, becuase it's always been like this, but it all seems to fit fairly well. I wouldn't want Paul Johnson drawing 'Entropy in the UK,' but his scratchy style works fine for the two Dane solo stories.

And, in terms of favorite artist on the series, Chris Weston and Jiminez are the tops for me, and I think Weston takes over at exactly the right point in Volume II, when the shiny gloss starts wear off and his nastier style makes more sense.

Actually, I forgot the best artist of all, Frank Quitely on the last issue. I still wish he could have drawn the entire last arc.
 
 
PatrickMM
21:49 / 03.03.07
Fanny's journey is flashier and more mythic here, I think, than Jack's initiation, although re-reading this arc, I had to wonder if they were both probably going through essentially the same experience, albeit through different lens. Can anyone find parallels? It just struck me as an odd notion I hadn't really thought of before.

I think that's exactly how it is, all the characters go through this experience at some point, but they perceive it in different ways. King Mob has the same thing when he goes into the cave and finds the giant scorpion ship, and Robin's is when she jumps in the timesuit and eventually moves out to Barbelith.

'All Tomorrow's Parties' pretty much mimics the structure of 'Sheman,' only doing so with literal time travel rather than just the perceptual experience of different times. I don't remember the specifics, but I don't think Robin goes 'home' to Barbelith before that. That means that after Boy sheds her identities, Robin is the only one who hasn't experienced that perceptual jump.
 
 
PatrickMM
22:00 / 03.03.07
I appreciate that I must sound like Richard Nixon now, but; if George had sat down and planned the whole thing out properly, I can't help feeling that Teh Invisibles would be much more highly regarded than it is at the moment, by anyone, anywhere. - compared to say, 'Watchmen', or 'The Enigma' it reads like the work of someone who was on a lot of drugs at the time, which would have been perfectly all right. had the consequent hallucinations been approached in a vaguely linear fashion, art-wise.

I think that's true to some extent, it's a lot easier to read Volume II than to sort through the changing styles of Volume I. To me, 'The Invisibles' tops Watchmen and every other comic out there, and I have wondered why it seems to get so little media attention compared to Alan Moore's stuff, or even Preacher or Sandman.

I first heard about the series as a major inspiration for The Matrix, and sporadically heard discussion about it online, but it wasn't anything like Watchmen or Preacher, which came up all the time, both in comics circles and on more general sites. But, when people did talk about The Invisibles, it was with huge enthusiasm, as a transformative work.

I don't think the series could ever have the mainstream acceptance of a Watchmen because of the sheer complexity of its ideas. Concepts are placed and then not followed up on for years, a good chunk of 'Arcadia' is incomprehensible on the first read, and I just don't think most people want their fiction to be that demanding. Fiction, particularly genre work, is generally considered an escape, and, while there are components of that here, it's wrapped in so many other elements, it's hard to enjoy as just an escapist work.

Volume II works a lot better in this respect, and in giving people the series, I've sometimes started them with Bloody Hell in America as a teaser, then tracked back to the slower, more complex beginning.

But, I think there's certainly an interesting discussion surrounding why so many major comics are getting adapted into films, but Grant's never seem to. Is it the fact that we're all schizophrenics, unable to process metaphor? Or just the fact that he's not a proven commodity within the industry yet?
 
 
This Sunday
22:56 / 03.03.07
'We3' is being adapted, if I recall correctly.

And, to be fair, I don't think a Moore comic has ever been put up on the screen, they just keep some of the basics and add trails on the knives and an American with a gun or something.

And I always feel a little guilty when I state this, because I'm not trying to run anyone down and it's more something with me than with the two writers, but, fuck it: The weakest of Morrison's comics work better for me than anything Alan Moore has done that I've seen. It's just how it is. Which, is not to imply that Moore is a bad writer, at all; the majority of his style and methods do not entertain me. And I'm actually going to borrow and read all of 'Promethea' sometime soon, because the dipping in and out just strengthened my conviction that we think of narrative and magick very differently. Which, no doubt, keeps Moore awake and terrified at nights.

'Watchmen' is something I can never really be objective about - but, then, I'm never objective, so - because I first read it when I was a kid, and as a kid I didn't like it. My tastes, as it were, have never really matured. I still like pretty much the same thing I liked when I was five or fifteen. Density in place of being entertaining, trauma in place of innovation or interesting placement of ideas, is just never going to sell me. And that's what I get out of 'Watchmen' and I think the reason more people talk about it instead of 'The Invisibles' is

(a) 'The Invisibles' on some level, expects you to put some actual thought into things. 'Watchmen' is a narrative with everything plugged into place, in a world unlike our own, so if you want to put it down and not let it be our world, it's just a fictional reflection.

(b) 'The Invisibles' expects you to take parts of it, if not seriously, than as plausible. This includes magick, sex-magick, and that your enemies aren't, actually, your enemies, but just some other people trying to get by. 'Watchmen' is a world where villains are villains, the brilliant are terrifying, the violent or justice-motivated are damaged, scarred and lonely, and so on.

(c) 'The Invisibles' is about everything. 'Watchmen' is about comics, maturity and lack thereof, and being very serious.

(d) 'The Invisibles' treats rape as any other sort of degradation: something to get through and not let turn you into a shitty person. 'Watchmen' treats rape, and degradation in general, as something that breaks people, perhaps permanently. One of these demands you be responsible for yourself, the other, allows for a sort of post-trauma perpetual victim-hood of physical and psychological grounds.

(e) 'The Invisibles' really pushed some boundaries, in regards to what a mainstream comic could get away with communicating, condoning, or criticizing. Relationships, sex, chemicals, religions, daily and nightly habits, and whose fault is it anyway? 'Watchmen' had rape, some psychological violence, a dead dog, and um... The Vietnam War was bad! Atomic weapons are dangerous! Smart people are scary and inhuman, and so are the dumb ones!

(e)'The Invisibles' often had fun with itself. It's characters and world are, in the end, hopeful and we have hope for them. 'Watchmen' is very very serious. With superheroes. There is no hope that is not false.

(f) There was little effort in 'The Invisibles' to curtail artists personal tics. Dave Gibbons has a singular style.

(g) 'The Invisibles' is an inocculant. 'Watchmen' is a diagnosis. Diagnosis is little good without a good chemist and posologist somewhere down the line, which, if it's in the book, I totally missed it. Definitely included in 'The Invisibles' from page one.

It's easier to talk about 'Watchmen' because it's entirely fictional and the really critical parts aren't about 'us' but political figures, wars, and social matters to which criticism comes comfortably. On the other hand, 'The Invisibles' basically climaxes with a demand that we're 'all drawn on the same paper' as Morrison said in some interview. When Moore's characters are analysed and/or critiqued, in-story or out, they stop at the criticism, at the flaws; everyone in 'The Invisibles' is critiqued, autocritiqued, judged, and in the end, those who don't die in-story, get to change and grow, and those who don't get to change and grow in life, do so either through our later-perspective ('Best Man Fall') or in the big blank page of love we know they're going to.

So, 'Watchmen' says, basically, you can't grow up, and if you do, you're somehow damaged goods and frozen there. 'The Invisibles' demands you account for yourself and be a good person. Or King Mob'll kill you and we'll discover you probably weren't all that bad to begin with.

Audrey Murray, we hope you inherit the comics market.
 
 
This Sunday
23:53 / 03.03.07
I can do 'The Invisibles' vs 'Preacher', too, if necessary.

If this was the wrong thread for the above, somebody who has the authority, feel free to knock it out of here.

But, really, to hell with 'media interest' or whatever. Where and when was the last online 'Watchmen' reread, or the great 'Preacher' annotations?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
00:54 / 04.03.07
On the other hand, 'The Invisibles' basically climaxes with a demand that we're 'all drawn on the same paper'

We're all badly drawn on the same paper, surely?

I both love and hate Alan Moore, but isn't the point of him that he does exactly what he likes these days? Wouldn't he rather have got a haircut than pick up a cheque for something as teh lame as '52'?
 
 
This Sunday
01:10 / 04.03.07
Alan Moore wrote a 'Badrock vs Violator' mini. And got paid for it.

And damned well he should, too.

How do we know Morrison isn't enjoying all his current projects? Or the money they bring in?

Have either of them 'just done it for the money' before? Are they now? As long as I like the work, I could care less about their motivations for writing them.

It's not like 'The Invisibles' goes up in smoke and vacancy just because Morrison writes something else you might not like as much (or at all). They didn't pull all the copies of 'V for Vendetta' off the shelves and burn them because I decided I don't much care for 'Watchmen'.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:53 / 04.03.07
I don't there is necessarily much bad art per se in The Invisibles, more that a number of artists don't seem to understand what Morrison wants them to draw. I'm not sure about how many of the artists knew Lord Fanny was a tranny, for example, most of the time ze is drawn like a Wonder Woman and Morrison leaves the impression that there is no difference between Hilde apparently working as a female-presenting prostitute in Rio and Lord Fanny the drag queen in London, mainly because, I suspect, he chose the character first and then worked out her backstory later.

But we've only got a couple of pages of script for 3.2 so we don't know how many other times the artists just went off and did their own thing, I don't know whether anyone here who is on better terms with Morrison than Haus might feel about asking him whether there's any chance of scripts for long completed works like 'The Filth' and 'The Invisibles' could be put up at GM.com for people to see?
 
 
andrewdrilon
11:56 / 04.03.07
But we've only got a couple of pages of script for 3.2

...where? Where?? Do you have a linkee or something?
 
 
sn00p
13:28 / 04.03.07
Being a master procastinator i managed to read apocalipstick this afternoon, some thoughts:

In the first issue i love the I-Ching title, that's really clever.
The Voodoun gnostic workbook influence starts in the second issue, which i've only just started working through, so at the time i just thought it was this really personal trip report inserted into a comic, which it is, but to my 15 year old stonner self this was awesome, and is awesome to me now in new depth.
Last man fall and the issue about the Moon King are great, real classics.
In the next few issues about Lord Fannys and Jacks initiation you can really feel the 90's pulsing off the page, all the smart drugs and UFO's. It's really good the way Grant put's his more modern UFO transcendual experience in context with the more classic aztec mythical experience of Lord Fanny.
In the scene where Jack truly experiences the UF0( were he says something like "This is all shite, like a film in 3D") reminds me of what it feels like when you take DMT. Like being in an infinite dimension of infomation that folds back on itself so everything is touching.

I remember the day i first read apocalipstick. Down on the beach smoking some hash and it felt like 12000 degrees. I remember being so horrified by some of the concepts of domination. The way that man's wife is 'given' to someone else. The way every aspect of the butlers life is so controled. That horrible rape party with the animal masks. That and best man fall remind me that he is a brilliant writer and not just a visionary, which is how i often think of him, the man instead of the writer.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
15:28 / 04.03.07
It's not like 'The Invisibles' goes up in smoke and vacancy just because Morrison writes something else you might not like as much (or at all). They didn't pull all the copies of 'V for Vendetta' off the shelves and burn them because I decided I don't much care for 'Watchmen'.

Well no. I suppose I sometimes over-state my opinions on the interweb because a) I see myself as a sort of virtual Rudyard Kipling, and b) that's the kind of thing I like to read personally.

I do hope Grant Morrison is emotionally, creatively and, dare I say it, sexually satisfied these days, of course I do, but he does seem to have taken on a number of projects recently that for whatever reason he can't, apparently, really be arsed with.

Alan Moore's no doubt written a lot of terrible stuff, but in the process he's managed to carve out a reputation for himself as a serious literary figure, in a way that as far as the wider world's concerned Grant Morrison really hasn't. And I don't think it's because of the quality of the writing, so much as a somewhat cavalier approach to questions to do with the art, at least in this, his so far main claim for the attention of posterity.

I do sort of admire him for this, but Grant Morrison was apparently very difficult to get hold of during The Invisibles, in terms of returning phone calls from his artists; basically, Alan Moore's much more hands-on approach seems to have served him a bit better, over the years.
 
 
unbecoming
17:59 / 04.03.07
Having read scripts by both artists i notice that Moore tends to describe each panel visually, making alot of the decisions for the artist himself whereas morrison often gets carried away with descriptive language, making it more difficult for the artist
 
 
Alex's Grandma
19:19 / 04.03.07
Perhaps another way of looking at it would be this; that Grant Morrison writes like a naked man with his engorged %nob% in one of his hands, and Alan Moore's largely just trying to remember where he put the morphine, artistically.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
19:31 / 04.03.07
Where and when was the last online 'Watchmen' reread, or the great 'Preacher' annotations?

I'm not sure that half a dozen people discussing Invisibles on a board called Barbelith really carries much weight if you're trying to put Watchmen and Invisibles against each other on the grand balance. (Which I wouldn't do anyway; any more than I feel a need to definitively try to prove whether, I don't know, Heat is better than Collateral. I mean the movie Heat... not the magazine.)

For what it's worth, I've seen numerous sites dissecting and annotating Watchmen. In terms of word count, it might well weigh in heavier than all the discussion of Invisibles on this board. But as I say, I don't really think that's the way to judge the artistic worth or cultural importance of a comic. I don't think the two need necessarily be compared in that way. I'm glad they both exist ~ but Invisibles would very probably never have been written (or never published) without Moore's work of the 1980s.

I remember the day i first read apocalipstick. Down on the beach smoking some hash and it felt like 12000 degrees. [These experiences] remind me that he is a brilliant writer and not just a visionary, which is how i often think of him, the man instead of the writer.

I used to read Revolver magazine in the garden with two cans of Special Brew. (What!?) As I remember, not just Rogan Gosh but Dan Dare, Happenstance and Kismet and Dire Streets seemed to be drawing me into a world of trippy freakery where the mysteries of the future (1993) were unveiled. Just noting that sometimes you have to separate the power of the substances from the power of the text and its author.
 
 
calgodot
20:42 / 04.03.07
'The Invisibles' really pushed some boundaries...

Watchmen was written and published 1986-87. The Invisibles was written and published 1994-2000. The "boundaries" that Moore pushed in 1986 were no longer present by 1994. Moore's work is literary antecedent for Morrison's work. The Invisibles may be said to stand on the shoulders of Watchmen. Heck, the Vertigo imprint was created as a result of the brouhaha that Moore and other writers created with their "adult content." Significant changes in the comics industry occurred in the decade that separates the two works, making such comparison of the works problematic. Suffice to say, Morrison could not likely have gotten away with The Invisibles in 1986.

Morrison barely got away with the Arcadia sequence 12 years later. But by then transgressive content was almost de rigeur in comics - and certainly so in Vertigo and similar titles. Kids in the 90s bought Vertigo comics the way kids in the '50s bought copies of Tropic of Capricorn, often lured in by the promise of tits, ass, and mega-violence. Note that The Invisibles does not disappoint on those grounds.

The issues containing Fanny's story are my favorite of volume 1. Dane's character has always annoyed me, and while I enjoy the rantings of Mad Tom (and the fine lessons in city magick), I didn't begin to enjoy the characters (or the premise) until we were treated with Fanny's story. Oddly this heartfelt account of the life of a transgender seems to have disturbed some comics readers at the time for than the gangrape in Arcadia. People canceled or threatened to cancel their future purchase of issues due to Grant's obvious authorial sympathy toward Fanny.

It was Fanny's story that also demonstrated the level of research Morrison had put into the story. I was already a fan of Moore's work by the time I read The Invisibles, and was directed to the comic because I asked a friend, "Who is the next Alan Moore?" The friend loaned me the trade of Apocalipstic. I immediately ordered a complete run (I hate trades) and read them over the course of a week.

The Arcadia arc contains some imagery that is of course quite disturbing - I wonder how others responded to it at the time of its publication (and now). Without a better understanding of de Sade, I think the castle sequence might have put me off the rest of the story, particularly if I had been reading them in sequence, a month (or more) between issues. Fortunately I had the benefit of being able to read the story with only a few days passing before I "got it" (when the comic does its own eternal recurrence).

As others have offered, Best Man Fall is a compelling and moving story. It took me quite by surprised when I read it. One of the greatest weaknesses of The Matrix is, I think, the manner in which the filmmakers chose to neglect the incredibly high death toll Neo and his allies create. Not long after his retrieval, Neo is told that Matrix-death equals meat-death - and then Our Hero goes about murdering people without ever considering this again, without considering that every uniformed cop he kills adds up to one death of some "copper-top." It's not often that an author asks us to sympathize with "the bad guys," and I was impressed that Morrison not only thought to do it but pulled it off masterfully. Over later issues he demonstrates the psychic/karmic toll that killing takes on King Mob. This ain't your daddy's superhero comic, for sure.

I wasn't too impressed with the Royal Monsters one-shot. A little too neo-Lovecraft for my tastes, with the daughter's betrayal all too predictable. I appreciate that the intention was to rouse our sympathy for another poor sap used & abused by the bad guys, but it didn't work for me with the butler. Maybe it's because I don't like butlers to begin with.

"Season of Ghouls" reminded me of the old DC horror comics. Jim Crow is the kind of guy who might show up in Houma, or is acquainted with the Brothers. The image of corporate masters using the occult to push their product, the old mother summoning up a supernatural ghetto defender, even the heavy lines and dark colors of the art - all struck me as very "1970s," an comics era of which I am particularly fond.

Of course, the issues that followed (with Gideon Stargrave!) fed my 70s comics jones even more....
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:16 / 04.03.07
People canceled or threatened to cancel their future purchase of issues due to Grant's obvious authorial sympathy toward Fanny.

Really? That seems odd. I recall there being some discussion here of how Fanny seemed to be having a pretty horrible time - but obvious authorial sympathy? There was some discussion on Barbelith about whether Fanny was a coherent character (a) and whether Fanny got more than a fair share of mistreatment (b). Are you referencing the letters pages at the time?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
23:35 / 04.03.07
Have you patched things up with him then, Haus?

Or, more precisely, has Grant extended the olive branch of his love to you?
 
 
unbecoming
08:32 / 05.03.07
...where? Where?? Do you have a linkee or something?

There are extracts from the script on The Bomb wiki, in the section about the third volume.

Haus, is there a link to the Lord Fanny discussion?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:40 / 05.03.07
I think most of the discussion was in older boards and therefore lost unless you're prepared to mess around with the Wayback Machine, however, there is this thread which touches on the issue.
 
 
This Sunday
17:05 / 05.03.07
Looking over the two recently-linked threads from back in the day, and thinking about people's issues with portrayals and character types, stereotypes, and treatment: I think the important thing is that (a) Morrison's big on everybody being a stereotype, and in fact, several stereotypes at once, and (b) one major point to the series, climaxing in that last issue with our newest Invisible, is that the best thing to do is not define yourself solidly, but let other people try and box you, so that you aren't locked to their box. We are dis-invited to analyzing and judging Lord Fanny or Helga or Jack Frost based on their backgrounds or steretypes, as it is almost demanded of us to judge them and treat them based solely on their own self, their own actions and reactions. We can't do a 'they listen to this kind of music because they're...' or 'they react this way because of social expectations and political...' and so on. Being in a shitty situation does not excuse shitty behaviour. The best moments are those handled with class, with dignity or decency, and the vindictive, asshole moments are clearly presented (after some eroto-violent misleads and a downward spiral of blood and assholity) as unnecessary and unbecoming. Thus, KM rethinks his positions (more than once) and becomes the yuppie terrorist. Boy walks off without a need for justification or revenge. Mister Six sheds identities, reclaims some old ones as necessary or enjoyable. Because King Mob isn't just a baldy guntoting mass murderer in a cool jacket. Boy isn't dramatic vengeance-seeking Ultimate Black Woman cop-gone-sour. Just like you can't look at people in life and tell them to pick a path, a pre-established and rigidly defined path, and get in-step already. Then, stay there and never deviate. That's the Outer Church method, there, not the ultimate lesson or realization.

I don't have a great problem with Fanny's being abused, assaulted, and otherwise spat upon and mistreated by assassins, psycho-ghosties or cowboys at breakfast. The point is that she never lets any of that make her a bitter old asshole. Ever. Spiteful and cocky? Sure. A little snippy sometimes, given, but even when she puts a shoe in Orlando, it's not anything to do with being horribly angry and hateful, and she doesn't go on to, y'know, smash random people in the face or rob liquor stores at gunpoint, because she had a bad life. She goes dancing. Fucks some gorgeous mumbly fellow. Pulls the wig down off the shelf.

That's what identity is about in 'The Invisibles'. It's not about telling someone they have to, for example, only be sexually attracted (or active) with one specific gender. Not about insisting a whiteboy dating a black woman several years older than him is more about race than age, or about Britain vs America, or what have you. Nor, demanding that Sir Miles me an absolute unrepentant permanent asshole from moment one. Miles, in the end, was a very sad case, not a damnable one. None of them are damnable, really. Glorious or pitiable, or both, but there's not a case to be made, using the series' moral structures, for insisting X can't listen to Y or A can't look at B lustingly.

In the end, especially with how KM's whole corporate activities are going, it's better to sell than to force. People will, ostensibly, play 'The Invisibles' because people like to play games, not necessarily because somebody's put a gun in their face and told them to change their life, change sides, and rethink existence to be just like them. Just like them. That's the trap it takes the whole series to get through, and really comes up in Vol. 3, with KM's admiration of Jack. Because he really is, in many ways, building Jack into being just like him. And while Jack Frost is early on seduced by many of the forefront King Mob traits, in the end, he makes his own tracks.

That, I think, is where Jim Crow's detournement and his revision of the first 'Doctor Who' ep come into play. It's also why he's better in the second volume, which is all about falsity and play. In the first series, there are a few stories that are deliberately (rigidly) themed, including Boy's origin, the crack-zombies, and the lovecraftian thing-from-the-mirror... and their all very socio-economic, as well, in ways that are totally misleading. These are false representations. We know they're false, because we've already been through 'Arcadia' presumably. The situations and reversals are not false to the characters, but really, having your daughter betray you, or someone who thought you were on the level with... having friends or partners betray you, the loss of siblings or friends... these are painful enough that your initial pain or shock always makes them seem very real, the initial reaction is so big it seems truthful. When, in fact, if we take the distant-view, the long-view of all these, the initial reactions are almost always false. Boy's judgment of her brother, her opinion of police, for example, or of her home life are all intensely misleading. But, they seem reasonably true and plausible to her, at the time, and to us. So, too, our dear shoggoth-food hidden agent, who is, in the end, a servant. He's quite convinced himself he's beyond all that and part of something glorious and impactful - and he is, dammit - but at the same time, he's just a tool.

These are all things that need reviewing from the long-view, the complete intake revealing that the reversals and judgments initially perceived may be incomplete or misdirection.

In the end, even characters Morrison may've intended to condemn, at least to death, get up and walk away on panel, like Roger. Helga writes herself a broader and longer position in the series, because she's not just Six's girlfriend. Nobody's just somebody's lover.

(I've ruined the storyline-by-storyline model for these threads, now, for which I apologize. Still, hopefully this has some place here, and presents something interesting or useful, otherwise unnoted.)
 
 
PatrickMM
18:42 / 05.03.07
On the eternal question of Moore vs. Morrison, surely the more analagous works are The Invisibles and Promethea. I remember an interview where Grant said something like "Alan Moore has spent the last ten years trying to be me," which isn't entirely inaccurate. Certainly they take different approaches to magic, but Promethea's major revelations are basically the same as The Invisibles.

In looking at the two works, you can see the difference between Grant's chaos, do it yourself magic and Alan's structured, highly researched worldview. I love both works, but I did find Promethea less mind blowing than I otherwise might have because I read it after The Invisibles. The best thing about Promethea for me was the way the art and narrative were so perfectly in synch, perhaps more so than in any other comic. The Invisibles has a lot of art issues, but the changing perspectives give it a bit of room to breathe, and the more haphazard structuring allows for a more improvisatory energy to infuse the work.

Ultimately, I feel like the major difference is Grant is clearly having a lot of fun writing the book, while Alan seems to take a somber approach. That may be what gets Moore the respect of the literary elite, while Morrison remains on the fringe. I feel like people will inevitably regard a work that is as shiny and cool on the surface as The Invisibles as lacking in substance. Part of the reason Sandman was able to get such acclaim is that it doesn't look like a 'normal' comic, whereas Jiminez has gone on to work on the biggest superhero titles in the industry.
 
  

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