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Warren Ellis does The Thunderbolts!

 
  

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FinderWolf
00:03 / 17.02.07
So it came to my attention that this book doesn't have its own thread (comments on the first issue were subsumed into the Civil War thread), and since Ellis' run on the series will outlive the CW mini & it seems Ellis will be on it for a good long while (hopefully), I figured it deserves its own thread.

Isn't it interesting that on the heels of DC announcing the return of its old-school fan-favorite book "Suicide Squad" (to be written by the same guy who wrote it in the 80s, John Ostrander), Marvel now effectively has its own "Suicide Squad" book, although T-Bolts has much viler and more A-level villains (for the most part). The Thunderbolts book probably has been the Marvel series to go through the most dramatic changes, from the fun of Kurt Busiek's original concept and his run up to about issue 33, to Fabian Niceza's mostly successful but more cliche and lackluster run, then the strange but bold "Fight Club for superheroes" turn the book took when Nu Marvel was at its apex, then back to Fabian for more 'old-school' comics appeal.

And now, we have yet another radical change for the direction in the title, with Ellis showing that having eeeevil murderous villains as your [coerced by the gov't to atone for their crimes] strike-force falls under the heading of "a not so good idea." Really, Ellis writing the titles makes it interesting...the same direction/concept written by a lesser writer would probably be pretty weak.

I thought The Swordsman was more of a good guy than truly EEEVVIL, but man is he pissed at the crippled Jack Flag in issue 2 of Ellis' run. I also always thought of Songbird as more of a 'good' character, but it's either my lack of recent T-Bols history in recent years or Norman Osborne's attempt to make her feel ashamed about herslef that leads to her being painted as extremely dubious of character.

Moonstone's line about 'hurry this up so I can go have meaningless sex' = cliche Ellis, which I'm not sure whether I'm quite sick of or not. But Ellis can write manipulative brilliant bastards like Karla and Norman reasonably well, and the bit with Norman needing to take his meds because someone mentions a Spider-Man-related hero was suitably creepy. I guess his meds keep him from becoming even more crazy and going back to full Spider-Man-hating, Gobby obsessive looney-tunes.

Reading the second Ellis issue, I felt like we, the audience, just want to see the train wreck this will become for the gov't and the power play between the villains....also, we want to see the T-Bolts get trounced by heroes, or anti-heroes, or whatever. Yet if the T-Bolts are defeated too easily as a team, this 'new direction' is finito. On the same token, it's like DC's ill-fated titles that starred the Joker or other baddies back in the 70s...how long can you have a book that stars villains, when we can't really "root for" the eeeevil ones?
 
 
FinderWolf
00:06 / 17.02.07
Also, whereas the T-Bolts book was always about bad guys who weren't horribly evil seeking redemption (more B- and C-list baddies ), I would find it hard to find much redemption happening with the new team.

And Penance doing his thing in this latest issue.....'meh,' as the internets people are wont to say. I almost don't want to hear much more about Penance because the concept is so silly. Just have him grunt and do his thing and keep him out of the spotlight for a while, please.

Much irony in the lingering tagline on the logo "Justice, Like Lightning"....
 
 
Alex's Grandma
00:27 / 17.02.07
I think if Marvel, for reasons best known to themselves, are serious about this then they ought to do it properly, and have what Garth Ennis might describe as 'a proper set of A-list bastards' on the team.

As it is, I've got no idea who half of these characters are, nor do I really wish to learn.

Hopefully most of them, Songbird, Moonstone, who-EVAH, will be killed off in the next few issues, leaving Norman free to recruit, I don't know, the Lizard, and so on
 
 
Benny the Ball
13:40 / 17.02.07
I'm amazed that DC is re-issuing Suicide Squad - the first book was great, the stuff linking in with Firestorm and the JLI was excellent - the 2nd series was okay, Giffen wrote some good issues, and the Injustice League/Sgt Rock stuff worked well - but I thought that Villians United (? United, Unlimited?) was the new take on this idea, without the government hanging over them.

Anyway, so as not to totally derail the thread - 1. I like Ellis, but, I don't buy comics at the moment, and this seems like Marvel's take on the Suicide Squad - and I just don't rate the Marvel Universe as being able to pull this off - it always seems like the gosh darn it teenage comic universe to DC's dang tooting grown up one. Still, Ellis is good (which I know a lot of you don't agree with, but that's my opinion).
 
 
Mark Parsons
06:31 / 18.02.07
I'm missing Fabian & Grummet (T-bolts was an old school nostalgia read: fun but for fanboys only) but am pleasantly surprised by Ellis' two issues. I'm pretty "meh" on the a-list villains, but Ellis is doing an AMAXING Norman Osborne and I also found myself caring for/rooting for Jack Flag, a character I was only vaguely familiar with. I enjoyed this much better than NEXTWAVE, which ran out of gas for me in issue two, and Ultimate FF, which was fun but low key fun compared to Millar's high octane approach.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
06:45 / 18.02.07
ngggh

I picked up #111 mostly on the strength of this thread, because it seemed like kind of a cool idea. But jeez, it's not cool at all. A note on human anatomy, Warren "I'm a scientist" Ellis: you can't "sever" someone's cauda equina, not with a sai. Maybe with a meat cleaver. Or, you know, a playing card.

Well, maybe that's nit-picking. It would certainly take the spring out of your step.

Putting Osborne in charge of an operation like this is a intriguing idea, but I have a hard time buying into a government that would authorize the use of guys like Bullseye and Venom, who are known to be A) uncontrollable psychopaths and B) not very successful at defeating superheroes, to track down and cripple American citizens in coordination with news media.

And yeah, the characters are obscure, their relavance, or even, really, their powers, are not made clear by the script--who is Penance again? Didn't he used to be called something else? And what's his problem?--and the art is really quite bad. This newfangled digital coloring covers a multitude of sins.

I feel like this whole concept is spun off from that one page in Bendis' Daredevil where the FBI coerces Paladin to take part in DD's capture--which was a fine moment--but is misguided in every respect. I fear it is an excuse for Ellis to get his jollies crippling Marvel's goofiest B-listers, and I find that a little disturbing.

Sorry, FW, I think in this case your enthusiasm is misplaced.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
07:49 / 18.02.07
Having read this month's issue, I was a bit depressed by the letters page, in which it was announced that the eight lead characters were 'here to stay.' I mean for God's sake, why? I could see the value in this series if it was a sort of death row/clearing house for tiring, second-string Marvel characters, both good and evil, as in; 'Nova/The Swordsman/Whoever - you've always hated him, and this month he gets his!!! Or does he??!!!', at least assuming they had to stay 'out of continuity' on a permanent basis once they'd been dealt with, but as it is, I fail to see the point. Warren Ellis is pretty clearly going to hand over the poisoned chalice of writing this once he's out of ideas (at this rate by Christmas,) and after that, cancellation looms. As well it might. The premise, that the bad guys are the good guys now, and so on, is simply quite irritating, and only likely to survive courtesy of guest star appearances once Warren jumps ship.

I'm not quite sure why 'Thunderbolts' annoys me so much (I borrowed this month's ish off a pal for example, so it's not the two quid,) but it does. Actually, one of the side-effects of 'Civil War' personally has been that it's got me to try out a number of Marvel 'books 'that I hadn't done previously, in an attempt to make sense of the overall story arc. Which has invaribaly brought me to the conclusion that most of what Marvel publishes is ... of a certain standard, and that I should think seriously, now, about pitching them a couple of my ideas.
 
 
KieronGillen
13:48 / 18.02.07
Alex: My reading of Marvel's stuff - and I'm far from someone who reads Marvel regularly - is similar, but I come to a much more depressing conclusion. I don't think much of what they're doing generally speaking, but that's a reason for me NOT to pitch anything at them. After all, they like what they're doing. That's why they're doing it. Since my ideas aren't on a complimentary wavelength, it'd be a waste of time.

(I'm okay with what I've read of Thunderbolts. Which is, as far as I can make out, Ellis running with his satirical sensibiilties with a Marvel Concept From On High. One bit I differ from most people here is that this is actually more respectful than I'd have thought to the marvel Z-listers.)

KG
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
14:18 / 18.02.07
I think there’s definitely potential in the new Thunderbolts, if it’s made into a solidly character based book. The various clashing moralities or lack thereof of the characters could be really interesting – we got the out and out evil bastards in Venom, Osborne, and Bullseye, the not quite as vile, but still fairly unpleasant examples of humanity in Swordsman, Radioactive Man and Moonstone, and the basically decent while decidedly screwed up Songbird and ‘Penance’ on the team, and in theory that mix of characters could make for some really interesting character interaction and conflict. Still it’s not really off to an auspicious start with that with even supposedly non-evil characters reasonably enthusiastically supporting the efforts to frame and cripple a minor unregistered superhero. Broadly I want some characters I can sympathize with – I want to feel that Songbird and ‘Penance’ at least are really suffering as a result of their part in this monstrous team, and that they hate every minute of it, but feel they don’t have any way out. When they co-operate with business like this without even raising an objection it saps my enthusiasm for the whole thing. Still I didn’t hate it, and that in itself makes it more interesting than a fair few books from either big publisher right now. I’ll probably give it till the summer or till Ellis leaves whichever happens first to win me over.
 
 
FinderWolf
20:20 / 18.02.07
It is rather interesting that the fact that Speedball is Penance is not mentioned anywhere in the first two Ellis issues. We only know it because Joe Q. and co. have said so several times in various online interviews about the character and the book itself.
 
 
Haloquin
20:31 / 18.02.07
And Frontline #10......
 
 
Alex's Grandma
21:55 / 18.02.07
Ok, my pitch;

Scene one; splash page, in leafy suburbia, white picket fences, lawns, etc.

Close in on REBEL, as he sits by his desk; he's reading a book by PJ O'Rourke

REBEL: Man, I'm totally depressed
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:56 / 19.02.07
I've only read the first issue of the Ellis-written stuff so far and to be honest that one didn't grab my attention the way that some of his work can. But as I do tend to like his comics I'm going to give it a little more time before I jump ship.

Putting Osborne in charge of an operation like this is a intriguing idea, but I have a hard time buying into a government that would authorize the use of guys like Bullseye and Venom, who are known to be A) uncontrollable psychopaths and B) not very successful at defeating superheroes, to track down and cripple American citizens in coordination with news media.

Let's face it, it wasn't too long ago in the Marvel-verse that Norm was chucking pumpkin bombs and giggling like an idiot too. That Stark authorised this seems to be the most unrealistic part of the concept. Let's not forget that the last Thunderbolt leader he shook hands with (Zemo) then went on to try and (once again) rule ze verld.

Iron Man knows Osborne's an unstable super-villain. Why give him the keys to his own personal post-human strike force when there are plenty of suitable good guys who's do the job as well, if not better (Val Cooper anyone?).

I'm not sure how much of the public knows that this isn't the original Venom. Eddie Brock was an anti-hero for quite some time (during that whole Lethal Protector of San Francisco thing). The government may be rationalising that a symbiote-enhanced Scorpion may be worth the hassle of having to shock him every once in a while to stop him eating J. Jonah's brains.

As for Bullseye. Well-known international assassin and serial killer. Not really the best choice for a team of "heroes". But I get the feeling that Ellis is going to be portraying him as the most dangerous team member.

Sure they got their asses kicked whilst they were villains. But so did the Masters of Evil before they became Thunderbolts. Once it's your comic you win a whole lot more. It's the rules.

Personally I'd have liked them to throw Phantomex into the mix, but that's just me.
 
 
Robert B
18:52 / 20.02.07
I've been enjoying this so far. In the latest issue looks like Bullseye is being kept on a short leash and out of the public eye. I'll stick around for a few more issues to see where it heads.

Liked Osborne thinking they were given the go ahead to take down Spider-Man when they mentioned Scarlet Spider as a potential target.

Aid reading off list of Thunderbolts targets that includes the Scarlet Spider.
"Wait. Did you say Spider-Man?"
"What? No, sir."
"Oh, I thought you said Spider-Man."

Or something to that effect.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
21:35 / 20.02.07
So far it's ok. Reminds me of the old X-Factors where they worked for the government and had Sabretooth hooked up with a collar.

Wondered why they didn't load the team with cool bad guys, there's plenty out there who aren't tied up in any stories right now but then I remembered Ellis has a habit of killing off tons of team members (Stormwatch). As a big Cap fan it was fun to see Jack Flag, and I'm loving Norman Osborne. I think Lex Luthor writers could learn a little, genius scientist always one straw away from losing it and throwing on green and purple battle armor and poisining the water with red kryptonite or something.

I am wondering which character we're supposed to identify with. Bullseye's the coolest, but he's getting the straight evil fucker killing machine treatment. Penance maybe? Not sure, but I'll stick around and see how it goes.
 
 
Triplets
22:13 / 20.02.07
Penance maybe?

In that he's trapped in a suit or 'life' where he inflicts things he doesn't really like on himself on a regular basis?

Perhaps monthly?
 
 
This Sunday
23:37 / 20.02.07
Am I the only one who finds the team line-up very cool? I'd give Norman Osborne a high-profile government weaponised-fellows control job before a number of people in the actual US Gov. And I'd buy a book where he has that control. Because it's amusing.

And it's Scorp-Venom! That's like two villains for the price of one.

All this needs is MODOK. Or Norman, Bullseye, and a random third Thunderbolt having their way with, y'know, Leapfrog or that kangaroo-villain in some slashy violent prison scenario for five pages. To kill finheaded torntights rape once and for good.
 
 
Evil Scientist
06:18 / 21.02.07
Am I the only one who finds the team line-up very cool?

Hell no. I think it's a great line-up (with the exception of Penance). Plenty of "classic" T-bolts, plus some of my favourite unredeemable villains.
 
 
Evil Scientist
06:19 / 21.02.07
All this needs is MODOK.

Who would have been much further up my list of "people I'd let run Thunderbolts" than Mr-cackle-cackle-boom!-Osbourne.

That said Annihilus is further up the list than Norm.
 
 
This Sunday
13:16 / 21.02.07
No, no. You give Norman the Thunderbolts. Annihilus and MODOK? President and VP of the United States of America. Tell me it's not better than Lex. Or that guy. The one. Or the last three presidents people actually voted into office here in the States, anyway.

Annihilus vs Rumsfield = good friendly fun for the whole family. And Kirbydots.
 
 
FinderWolf
12:28 / 17.03.07
All I can say is, having Stan Lee host the gameshow "Who Wants To Be A Thunderbolt" is a pretty hilarious idea. Nice once Warren.

This issue overall was really strong; almost the strongest issue yet of the Ellis run. Loved the scene with the Radioactive Man especially -- and nice to see that even EEEVIL Norman Osborn can find Bullseye's persona repugnant.
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
15:59 / 17.03.07
Yeah – I thought that was the best one yet. Plenty of good, strong character stuff. Personally I wonder if I’d like this series a lot better if it just skipped the action entirely and concentrated on the teams arguments, breakdowns and political machinations during downtime.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:21 / 02.04.07
was just reading this again and it really holds up to multiple reads...also, I noted that the town in the 'Who Wants To Be A Thunderbolt' reality series is called "Insurgent Town"! lol. Also, "Stabbity Jones." Wish this series were bi-weekly. The colorist is also doing some really cool, unique things with skin shading, textures, etc.
 
 
FinderWolf
16:39 / 09.05.07
more Ellis super-evil-guys mayhem this week... should be interesting to see how he tackles Sepulchre and the American Indian hero dude. I'm glad Deodato has been consistent on the art - it seems like these days fill-in artists get called in 4 issues into a new creative team's run.
 
 
FinderWolf
20:17 / 26.06.07
anyone else still reading or still psyched about this?

New issue out this week and I've really been enjoying the series as written by Wascally Warren (maybe that could be his "Stan Lee-hype" name)
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
20:31 / 26.06.07
Has it been ages since the last one or have I managed to miss an issue? Seems like longer ago than late May I last picked one up.
 
 
sleazenation
20:38 / 26.06.07
Are you saying that there is a comic written by Warren Ellis that is of low publication frequency?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
20:53 / 26.06.07
Where does Thunderbolts fall on the old Ellisomagnetic Spectrum, wherein (roughly) Planetary has the big, choppy waves of infrared and, say, Fell is the closest you're going to get to ultraviolet?
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
23:39 / 26.06.07
Next issue is out tomorrow in the states and last month there was a 1 shot Penance Special to give the artist a breather. It's been monthly.
 
 
The Falcon
22:18 / 28.06.07
There's also a fill-in next month, I think.

However, in the interim, before Warren's next series of hiatuses (where's my fucking Morning Dragons, ideas-man? and the one with John Paul Leon art) it'd maybe be instructive to look at books he actually has put out recently.

Which are: this. So.

He seems to be having fun with pushing the Authority-Ultimates format (i.e. repugnant leads, governmentally-sanctioned) to it's logical next phase at least, viz:
Q: Who do I, the reader, not completely hate in Thunderbolts?
A: Anyone who was on the team before Civil War, except Moonstone and Swordsman. So, two of them, and Penance seems completely pointless thus far - not that I'd give a rat's ass to see the prior incarnation return at any point.

So, really, it's no small pleasure to see one of them, probably the worst bastard of all, get the pasting of a lifetime in conclusion. One of the leads, to quote a fine old woman of our acquaintance, gets the you've always hated him, and this month he gets his!!! Or does he??!!! treatment.

There's almost nothing about this book that should work, really, somewhat analagous to the relations of the team - and really it's been the Osborn interviews with them that have been the best parts prior to this month, so it continually surprises by doing exactly that.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:37 / 29.06.07
Let's pitch an American Eagle ongoing, Falke.

Yeah?!? YEAH!??!??
 
 
FinderWolf
00:24 / 03.07.07
This issue was most excellent.

But will Bullseye really remain immobile for A Long Time (For Comics)? I guess he has been over-exposed in the MU for a while now, wouldn't be a bad idea to give him a little rest....
 
 
This Sunday
19:35 / 16.08.07
Reread these this morning, and the first thing that jumped into my head (so quickly I went and googled it to make sure I wasn’t making it up in my head) was Haus in the 52 thread: I don't see the problem. This is comics. First people have one look, and they stick with it. Native Americans have feathers in their hair (Danielle Moonstar, the various Thunderbirds), Australians have loincloths (Gateway). It's like Battle of the Planets.

If Warren Ellis, on a throwaway book like Thunderbolts can avoid pointlessly insulting racial-shorthands and insulting stereotypes when dealing with American Eagle or the Radioactive Man, than so can anyone on a big-hype book, a prestige format ultra-realistic wrinkle-faced and grim-determination vanity project, or well, the rest of comics. The excuse that the creators are socially stunted because they read comics, or they were raised on comics? Works only insofar as we continue to presume they don’t live on the same planet as the rest of us.

It’s very fun to say ‘Shut up, Ellis’ here and there, I’m sure, but really, if he’s one of the six or seven white people in comics who can bother to dress up his nonwhite characters in modern clothes and take the savage othering gloss off them because it intrigues or comforts some imaginary white audience who can’t handle anything else, I want him to yell it a little louder. Especially the bit about a giant Chinese man beating up white Americans never being an easy sell, specifically to the sort of public who apparently, would require the Radioactive Man to speak and act asianly and parrot a bad parody of orientalism (or what would be a parody if it weren’t reflective of the actual othering-tropes) to be acceptable.

It’s Thunderbolts, y’know? If it can be done here, in a c-list book that amazes most often just for still having new issues on the stand, where’s the excuse for anybody else? Written by a guy most often accused of just writing himself with a plot around his Marysue. Drawn by someone not terribly lauded often. And it’s a book I really like for many reasons, at the moment, but seriously, if it can do it, any prestige-format vanity projects or publisher-hyped frontrunner books and universe-defining series have no excuse. Maybe it’s very easy for otherwise rational people, who get properly offended at other insulting and stereotyping portrayals, be they sexist, homophobic, or religiously based, to write off the racism. Maybe it doesn’t effect them in their day to day life, and maybe it’s really petty of me to enjoy seeing nonwhite characters in virtually anything American doing something remotely badass and not tethered to a parodic stereotype, but it’s not like it really is easier to write. It’s the same amount of words, the same amount of characterization required of any of the white men to write a similarly interesting nonwhite character, a female or gay (or –yeah, like it’ll be common – nonwhite lesbian) character.
 
 
FinderWolf
18:29 / 19.08.07
I thought we were getting some sort of Jenkins-written T-BOLTS "special issue" to give Deodoato a month off, to catch up -- but now I see Marvel solicits for the new Ellis-Deodato issue and no mention of the Jenkins one-shot. Ah well, wasn't going to buy the Jenkins one-shot anyway... just curious about the scheduling. Bring on more Ellis/Deo. THUNDERBOLTS!!
 
 
Essential Dazzler
18:31 / 19.08.07
The Jenkins One-Shot, Desperate Measures came out weeks ago. It was poo.
 
  

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