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Underground > Temple >

Afro-Caribbean Powers in Contemporary Popular Culture

  
  

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EmberLeo
19:56 / 08.02.07
I have no idea, however, if these saintly crossovers ever extend to syncretizing the orisha themselves -- if because Lazaro is in some houses a road of Eleggua and in some houses a road of Babalu, that means that people acknowledge a double nature of Eleggua and Babalu (moreso than Eleggua's naturally doubled nature with everything), I have no idea.

Um, well, maybe I'm off, but it's my understanding that the identities of the Saints aren't really under consideration at all. It's not that they're identifying Eleggua's nature with Lazarus's nature with Babaluaye's nature. It's that they're using the image of Lazarus to represent whowever the image reminds them of, given the symbology, and any given House tends to have a sort of... ruling... on which images are used for which Orixa. Then the name of the Saint is attributed as a path of that Orixa, but the story of the Saint is often all but ignored.

--Ember--
 
 
grant
20:01 / 08.02.07
That's my understanding too, but, y'know, book-larnin'.
 
 
EmberLeo
21:17 / 08.02.07
My understanding comes as much from my Umbanda House and what I'm taught by others there as from books. There is something of confusion there, because in other syncretic contexts attention is given to the identity behind the symbol. But in this case, the syncretism isn't a product of the rulers coaxing the converted by saying "look, your guys are like our guys over here", it's a case of the opressed group hiding behind the symbols of the ruling group. Since the opressed group was working from oral tradition and often without the ability to read what was written about the Saints in their original context, it makes a LOT more sense that they were simply using the visual symbols they were permitted to correlate with the visual symbols that actually meant something to them.

Sooo the snakes are being driven away, not honored. Okay, the arrows that symbolize Oxossi happen to be through the guy's chest. Doesn't matter. The snakes are there, so it's Damballa. The arrows are there, so it's Oxossi.

--Ember--
 
 
Quantum
15:03 / 12.02.07
This leads me to wonder..what other 'incarnations' and 'masks have the Powers disguised themselves in other than the Catholic Saints? panthergod

I'm fascinated by the relationship between gods of different pantheons, and I wanted to bring up the notion of homology (thanks Patrick Harpur). Rather than think of the 'real' powers disguising themselves with masks it might be better to think of them as separate entities with important similarities, e.g. Hermes and Mercury are both gods of trade and are both psychopomps, but Mercury didn't invent fire and Hermes didn't get a metal named after him (also check out Turms the Etruscan god). It's all very well saying 'Luke Skywalker is Tyr' but taken too literally that road leads to mental backflips trying to equate Darth Vader with Fenris, Ratatosk with Jar-Jar Binks etc.
When the Romans did it they called it the interpretatio Romana, and it led to interesting correspondences when they tried to do it to the gods of the celts and germans and such. For example Tacitus says that the chief gods of the ancient Germans were Hercules and Mercury— referring to Thor and Odin respectively. (Roman syncretism)

My laboured point is on the nature of identity and the multifarious relations the word 'is' can cover. Luke Skywalker 'is' Tyr in the same way my cat Spot 'is' a cat- he has four legs and whiskers because cats do, but all cats don't sleep on my sofa because Spot does. It's a logical fallacy to extend the identity both ways (technically a type/token identity error) caused by the linguistic identity i.e. use of 'is'.
So you can just as meaningfully say Chango is Thor because they are both gods of thunder as you can say Chango is Tyr because they are both sky gods. Likwise Hermes could be equated to Loki (both tricksters) or Freyr (both with the big nobs, I mean Herms) or Odin (gods of magic). The utility of the comparison has got to be the last word IMHO, how useful the comparison is.
I try to remember when equating different entities the complex relationship they have. Sometimes they are cognate, sometimes old gods get new faces (as ember notes sometimes to hide your beliefs from those in charge, sometimes they evolve as practices change and such) sometimes one entity will be an aspect of a larger, reflecting only a part of it etc. the relations are complex and variable. Taking Legba as a kenning for Turms would be a mistake if you ask me.
(more ramblings on identity and syncretism later)
 
 
EmberLeo
17:04 / 13.02.07
I'm not sure if it's clear... I presume the true Catholic Saints indeed have their own identities as well. It's not that the Orixa are "Real" and the Saints are just masks. It's that when trying to get by in a different world, one often wears the clothing of the locals, and in the case of gods, that may well include faces of the locals.

--Ember--
 
 
Quantum
12:57 / 14.02.07
See, I disagree- I think when *we* go to other countries we fit in with the locals, I think the gods live there. The Ocean god of one culture might be similar to another's but I wouldn't say if you contact Yamaya instead of Neptune you'd be speaking to the same entity. The interpretation of the mysteries of Ocean is culturally dependent, like glasses you wear, so your perception of Catholic saints might be heavily influenced by your understanding of the orisha- as you say, the dude with the arrows is familiar, the closest fit to the dude I already know.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:53 / 14.02.07
If you are in a place devoid of characteristics, emptiness, where are the deities ? I would argue they are in you, no matter where or how you may find yourself, just as they exist within the fabric of other things. Understood as energetic fields with attractions to certain things it makes some sense, understood as absolute essences it doesn't seem to.

Then said existence of deities is based on prevailing conditions in a place, rather than say them existing as living fields of awareness, the physical representations are necessary for human communication, but they are not absolutely necessary.
 
 
EmberLeo
17:35 / 14.02.07
the dude with the arrows is familiar, the closest fit to the dude I already know

Two problems with this.

1: The "dude" with the arrows through his *chest* is nothing at all, in Identity, like the dude who is known for *hunting* with them. They weren't even TRYING to understand who the Saint really was, they were just looking for the pieces they were allowed to use that would let them interface with the powers they knew and loved.

2: I don't believe the gods are only attached to place. They are also attached to their people. If I go to Athens, and reach out for Freya, I'm not getting Aphrodite or Athena or Demeter. I'm getting Freya. If I go to a temple of Athena, see the statue of the lady standing there well armed, and think - knowing nothing of Athena, and much of Freya - "Gee, this statue reminds me of Freya" and then I pray to FREYA, I'm not really praying to Athena by mistake.

If a whole bunch of my people all moved to the same place at the same time, our gods are coming with us.

To whatever degree the Orixa are not already everywhere, the Orixa came to the Americas with Their people. The syncretization wasn't religious, it was political.

Similarly, the Roman forced syncretization was political, to maintain the illusion of unity.

--Ember--
 
 
Quantum
10:32 / 15.02.07
they were just looking for the pieces they were allowed to use that would let them interface with the powers they knew and loved...The syncretization wasn't religious, it was political.

So the diaspora (like the subjects of the Roman empire) is a different case to travelling worshippers, in that the oppressed retain their religion by masking it in the forms of the gods of their oppressors. In which case, the saints *are* masks for the orishas, surely? From the perspective of those following Yoruba at least? Like Capoerista slaves disguising their martial art as dancing, it's following forbidden practice through deception if I'm understanding you correctly.
I think syncretism is more complex than that (although I freely admit I don't follow a syncretic faith), santeria and candomble et al. seem to me to be the children of two parents, Yoruba and Catholicism. After a few hundred years of worshipping shango as St Barbara, there must be some mixing of their characteristics. That's slightly different to equating him with Zeus because his symbol is the double-headed axe, which is more what I was getting at.
 
 
EmberLeo
02:43 / 21.02.07
If I'm not mistaken, there's more varieties of African influence than just Yoruban, and the various flavors of Catholic does seem to matter. Brazilian Catholic culture is a bit different than French Catholic is a bit different than Spanish Catholic. How each culture and church handled the New World, and the subject of slaves varied. Then, also, Amazon tribes are rather different than Carribean Island tribes, and neither are much at all like the Eastern Woodland tribes of North America.

So yeah, it gets really complicated.

--Ember--
 
 
EmberLeo
05:56 / 21.02.07
Pardon me, for "Brazilian Catholic" read "Portugese Catholic".

I honestly don't know how deeply the actual life stories of the various Saints that became treated as masks for Orixa and Lwa relate to the stories of the spirits. On a cursory level, in the specifics I know, not very much at all. I would hazard a guess - and I do mean guess - that the Saint's story could often become an Orixa story with a bit of shifting, but the Orixa stories are somewhat unlikely to become attached to the Saint for non-Orixa worshiping Catholics in the same area.

--Ember--
 
 
Thistle
09:19 / 02.07.07
Perhaps Erzulie is Beyonce's head? Beyonce is a virgo, I'm finding the heads and star sighns sync(as it goes)
 
 
rosie x
14:24 / 14.08.07
A few weeks back, I had the pleasure to see this perfect treasure of a film, Billy Wilder's Sunset Boulevard (1950). It seems like I've found another fractured appearance of my Lady and some of her mysteries: this time through the character of Norma Desmond.

Norma Desmond, fading star of the silent screen, inhabits a grandiose and crumbling mansion on Hollywood's Sunset Boulevard: overgrown on memories and decayed luxury. A young and unemployed screenwriter, Joe Gillis, happens upon her world while in flight from two repo-men; from thereon it's all like some strange abduction into faerie.

Deluded Norma takes a shine to young Joe and offers him a job editing her lengthy, self-penned manuscript, Salome: the vehicle with which she plans to make her long awaited comeback. Joe bites, and in the process becomes something of Norma's boy toy. Norma spoils him with fine, tailored suits, little engraved silver cigarette cases, champagne on tap and long rides through the hills in her vintage Isotta Fraschini...until it all goes horribly wrong that is.

By the close of the film poor Norma has lost all touch with reality, it having become too harsh and cruel a mirror for her to face. She sinks dreamily into a world of her own imaginings, ready to make that grand and long awaited comeback that everyone's been anticipating.

The ending is strikingly similar to that of A Streetcar Named Desire, and has an equallly heartbreaking and harrowing final line for its star:

"All right, Mr DeMille, I'm ready for my close up..."
 
  

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