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Afro-Caribbean Powers in Contemporary Popular Culture

 
  

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panthergod
18:00 / 31.01.07
I've been reading this book on Santeria, and it references a statements to the effect that the American Tall Tale of John Henry was based on Shango.

This leads me to wonder..what aother 'incarnations' and 'masks have the Powers disguised themselves in other than the Catholic Saints?

Riught now the first that comes to mind, due to the above mention of John Henry, is DC's Steel. He's a blatant offshoot of the John Henry fable. He looks to be to be a merging of shango with Ogun, being a metal shethed warrior/blacksmith/inventor. Morrison gave him the role of Hephestus in the Big 12 JLA during his run, so the African God of Blacksmith and Technology seems to be at least as much of an influence as Shango.

I've also heard of people on this forum considering Beyonce as a mask for Erzulie.

An more thoughts/ideas on this?
 
 
grant
18:27 / 31.01.07
Personally, I think that Shango quote is... sketchy.

What the hell does John Henry have to do with drums, wooing women an' that? Admittedly, both are *fast*, but still -- he's a steel-drivin' man.
 
 
panthergod
18:47 / 31.01.07
I'm guessing it probably a hammerstrike=thunder type thing myself.

I do see more Ogun than Shango, though.
 
 
rosie x
08:43 / 01.02.07
I've also heard of people on this forum considering Beyonce as a mask for Erzulie.

Well, if pop stars and celebrities are indeed the saints of the modern age, then that might not be too far a stretch in some cases. But Erzulie is as complicated a goddess as they come. In my opinion Miss Knowles, lovely as she is, lacks the fragility and tragedy associated with Erzulie Freda Dahomey, often known as Erzulie Maitress. Erzulie Freda is often represented by the Madonna Dolorosa, a pale skinned virgin surrounded by jewelled hearts, her own breast pierced by a sword. In Haitian mythology, it is her lot, as the essence of all that is delicate, beautiful and luxurious, to be continually disappointed by the ugliness of the material world and all its shortcomings. Hence the tears, which are cathartic, and link her to vast reservoirs of creative energy. A voudissant would perceive Freda as the force behind all artistic creation and aesthetic appreciation… A muse both generous and demanding.

I have several representations of Erzulie Freda on my home altar for her. There’s the Mater Dolorosa, of course, but photographs of Marilyn Monroe and Vivian Leigh have also been known to grace it at times. My Freda is particularly fond of the enigmatic New Orleans photographer E.J Belloq, who is best known for his portraits of Storyville prostitutes in the early 20th century. Storyville was the old red light district of New Orleans, and Belloq obviously had a fascination with the women who worked in its saloons and brothels. His work has a haunting, spooky beauty…the fragile, damaged glass plate negatives, nearly a hundred years old…all these dead women…it’s unsettling and sublime.

The character of Blanche DuBois in Tennessee Williams’ A Streetcar Named Desire, could without a doubt be seen as a manifestation of his particular Freda, and a rather dark one at that. There’s just so much in the play, and also in Elia Kazan’s film adaptation, that expresses Freda’s mysteries. I’d have no idea where to start, except to wholeheartedly recommend it to anyone with an interest in the Lady.

Freda is, however only one manifestation of Erzulie. The Erzulies all share a common core, but vary immensely in personality and temperament, as do the expressions of their mysteries. The goddess has many roads of manifestation, and many names. Take for example, Erzulie Dantor… There ain’t nothing fragile about her! She’s credited with starting the Haitian Revolution among other things, and is as fond of knives as she is perfume.

But back to Beyonce…

Personally, I’ve got to say that I’m somewhat uncomfortable with the deification and glorification of celebrities in contemporary culture. Beyonce Knowles is, according to those who know her, a rather quiet and nice Christian girl from Texas, very guarded about her personal life, who with a lot of talent and hard work, became famous and is now a superstar. And yes, I can see the mysteries of a certain Lady shining through Beyonce’s image at times. But for me to then make the statement, “Well, Beyonce’s like a modern day Oshun…” does a double disservice to them both, negating their respective complexities. I don’t know Beyonce, I only know her image, and to deify that image cheapens her as an actual woman. As for Oshun, to pigeonhole her thus is as equally restrictive, for her power is immense and manifold, and she may choose to appear in any number of guises.

But a lighter note, I’m really looking forward to Dreamgirls! At cinemas from Friday. Can’t wait!
 
 
EmberLeo
23:24 / 01.02.07
Thanks for that, Rosie X. Your description of Erzulie's tears was... Don't have a word for it, but thank you.

I will toss this in, because it's come up repeatedly recently, and I still find it enjoyable, if perhaps slightly superficial. I cannot watch RENT anymore without percieving the characters as Orixa (or perhaps more accurately, as humans who need to acknowledge their head spirits).

It all starts with Exu going on about documenting his friends for a year to see how it all goes. His flatmate Shango is no longer in a band, and is trying to write one great song but is too sad over the suicide of his girlfriend Oba, who killed herself when she realized that it was her fault Shango will someday die of AIDS.

Gregarious and sexy performance artist Pomba has recently broken up with Exu in favor of straight-laced activist lawyer Oya, who can't help but be attracted to her, but can't deal with her tendancy to flirt with anything that moves.

Oshun is instantly enamored of Shango, who falls for her immediately, but assumes he mustn't persue her until she makes it clear that she's already as messed up as he is. Her ex-boyfriend Ogun, who may or may not prompt jealousy from Shango, used to be part of the crowd, but his work ethic and efforts to elevate them all into a better life have prompted the rest of them to declare that he's sold out to the man.

They all look to modern philosopher Obatala for wisdom, and he in turn falls for the gentle caretaker Yemaya, who insists that they all be kind to eachother, and not forget they are a family. The two are practically a perfect couple until Yemaya dies.

--Ember--
 
 
rosie x
10:25 / 02.02.07
Ember, that’s really fascinating what you posted about Rent. I’ve never seen it before but have heard time and time again how fantastic it is.

I often see the Powers’ influence and mysteries shining through fictional characters, and it often can deepen my appreciation of the author’s work, as well as the actor’s individual contributions should it be dramatic material. This phenomenon is fascinating, and doesn’t seem to unsettle me in the same fashion that the modern day deification of celebrities seems to.

However, one might argue that the public persona of a celebrity can be, in certain cases, a fictional character of sorts. The most obvious example of this would probably be Marilyn Monroe. I was watching this really interesting little documentary on her one night; the film makers were interviewing several individuals who knew her during her time with Lee and Paula Strasberg at The Actors Studio in New York. Apparently, Monroe was quite aware of the fiction she was living. She refused to let anyone she knew personally call her Marilyn, preferring to be addressed as Norma Jean, her birth name. The most chilling moment in these interviews was when a fellow actor remembered walking with Monroe down a busy street in downtown New York, amazed that no one recognised her companion. Norma Jean then turned to her friend and whispered, “Do you want to see me be Her ?" The actor being interviewed then remarked that what followed was a personality transformation so marked it bordered on possession. In that instant, crowds stated to form on the busy street as “Marilyn Monroe” was spotted among the pedestrians, and the two women had to run to shelter to avoid being crushed in the attention.
 
 
Mario
01:27 / 06.02.07
That's an interesting vignette. It reminds me of some of the ideas that show up in Lawrence Miles' Faction Paradox stories.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
13:30 / 06.02.07
Hmmm. I know very little about Vodun and the like (I should know more, given the extremely strong influence on me of Christian traditions as filtered through the African Diaspora), but Freda... Frida... Kahlo?

Kahlo identified herself in some works as the Aztec deity Tlazolteotl, who again i know little about beyond what there is on the internet, but who i know to share some of the more interesting aspects of Kali... and the similarity of the names Kahlo and Kali, with my love of "word-sound-power" (to take a phrase from another post-African-Diaspora syncretic faith system), makes me sort of regard her as something like an archetype or avatar (inasmuch as i tend to conceptualise all people whose "creation" inspires me as such)...

Must remember to start a thread about post-colonialism and syncretism...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:50 / 06.02.07
This kind of thing is starting to happen more and more amongst modern Heathens: people are looking at popular culture and the modern world, and recognising the mysteries of their own Gods in public figures and in fictional characters. A Luke Skywalker figure on your altar to Tyr. Q, Jack Sparrow and the Human Torch as faces of Loki. Serena McKellen's Gandalf as Odin walking, disguised, into our time.

The more traditionalist groups absolutely hate this kind of thing, but my view is that it's not only entirely natural but a necessary development. It's important for the old Gods to find expression in this new world, new ways to talk to Their children.
 
 
Daemon est Deus Inversus
16:03 / 06.02.07
"Chango" is the spelling I've always seen. There are quite a few statues of her in various parts of Miami. She is associated with Saint Barbara, depicted as a blonde in a long red robe holding a sword thrust into the ground. Usually, she is paired with "Babaloo," the crutch-laden Saint Lazarus. Venus and Mercury.
 
 
EmberLeo
17:05 / 06.02.07
However, one might argue that the public persona of a celebrity can be, in certain cases, a fictional character of sorts.

Some are more larger-than-life than others. Perhaps it's the difference between Celebrity and a true Pop Culture Icon?

Serena McKellen's Gandalf as Odin walking, disguised,

(Serena?) Not terribly disguised, considering that Tolkien based the character on Odin - Gandalf and Odin share several kennings.

But yeah, the general trend I'd agree with.


"Chango" is the spelling I've always seen. There are quite a few statues of her in various parts of Miami.

Well, to my knowledge, Chango, Xango, and Shango are all correct spellings depending on which context you're in. I believe Chango is correct in Santeria. Xango is Brazilian. Shango is I think for Shango Cult, and perhaps where He shows up as a Loa, but don't hold me to that.

Yes, Santa Barbara is recognised as His icon in many places (She's Oya's Icon in Brazil) because She is depicted with lightning, since Her claim to Sainthood involves being struck by it. Despite this, in the contexts I'm aware of, Shango Himself is very, very male - Santa Barbara is merely a feminine mask He wears to interface with the Church.

Keep in mind that Saint Patrick is associated with Damballa Wedo because He is always depicted with snakes, even though Saint Patrick is known primarily for driving snakes away. Which Saint images are used has more to do with the surrounding symbols than with the story behind Their actual identity in the Church.

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:28 / 06.02.07
Well, by disguised I meant that you're not going to get the Odin connection unless you're already reasonably familiar with the Old Man (and aware that LotR is kind of Icelandic literature-based fanfic).

Serena = what Sir Ian's mates call him, or so I've heard. Me being cheeky.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:34 / 06.02.07
in the contexts I'm aware of, Shango Himself is very, very male - Santa Barbara is merely a feminine mask He wears to interface with the Church.

Shango's a very interesting figure for me. Lots of odd little resonances between Him and Thor: both associated with lightning, both princes, both had to employ cross-dressing to thwart Their enemies... am I correct in thinking that He is also associated with the colour red?
 
 
EmberLeo
21:11 / 06.02.07
Red, White, the number 6, Wood, yes. Hmmm, I don't find Shango and Thor to be terribly similar in personality, but I suppose they'd get on quite well with eachother (Thor doesn't do the Posessory thing much, in my experience. Not that He won't if specifically asked down for a good reason, just that He doesn't prompt for it at all).

I don't know. Thor has seemed much more easy-going to me than Shango. Shango seems to have a great deal of pride, being a King and all. Thor has a temper, and I'm sure He cares about honor and such, but He doesn't seem to be the sort who would take offense to a breach of protocol if it wasn't also a breach of ethics, you know? *shrugs* Just my impression.

--Ember--
 
 
rosie x
08:12 / 07.02.07
I'm not very close to Shango myself, but my partner has a relationship with Him (and He's definitely a Him, and a fairly macho one at that). He has a little niche altar in our main Mojo room: seems to favour shiny red apples, fine aftershave and Courvosier. You have to mind your manners quite carefully around Him: He’s royalty and expects to be treated accordingly. The red candles in His shrine burn very brightly whenever we play Him Elvis records. Must be something about “The King”.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:10 / 07.02.07
I'm curious about something, Dedi. What makes you associate Shango with Venus and Babalu-Aye with Mercury?
 
 
saintmae
17:05 / 07.02.07
This may be drifting a little bit, but one of the reasons I am so keen on pop magic(k) in general is that I think it piggybacks meaning in important ways. Someone used the example of Luke Skywalker for Tyr - when you make this connection on a larger scale (say, posting here, or talking to your friends, or doing a ritual with Luke Skywalker as Tyr) - you deepen your connections with both the god in question and the world around you. The next time you see Star Wars, you're going to be thinking about the Norse gods, and in general, I see that as a good thing. Not only that, but people who did not do this and just heard about it are going to be thinking about it. I know I am.

To get back to the specifics of this thread - if there are people out there who see Beyonce as Oshun, while I can see the limitations someone else pointed out - I think it generally gets more attention to Oshun from people who are not her explicit devotees, and in general that is probably a good thing.

Where that becomes tricky, though, is when some of these stories start to merge in people's heads. Does it change the manifestation of Oshun in your life if you are always conflating her with Beyonce (even if you know the difference loud and clear)? ...And what does Oshun think of that?
 
 
rosie x
17:07 / 07.02.07
That puzzled me as well. If any Orisha would be associated with Venus, it would undoubtedly be Oshun, the patron of love, rivers and sensuality, among other things. As for Babalu-Aye, well he’s the patron of both diseases and healing, hence the syncretism with St. Lazarus. I’m not sure what is particularly Mercurial about that, but then again I’m no Classics scholar. Thoughts?
 
 
rosie x
17:11 / 07.02.07
Oops, cross-posted there, sorry. I was referring back to Mordant’s query to Dedi.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:27 / 07.02.07
saintmae: what's really superawesome is that the person who talked about putting Luke on her Tyr altar fended off a knife-weilding attacker with the bag containing said Star Wars dolly and another action figure she'd bought to represent Loki. Which is just too cool, really.

The thing to watch out for, though, is to remember that you're using the pop-culture figure to represent the God, but that the pop-culture figure should not be thought of as including all that the God is. Luke Skywalker resembles Tyr in certain ways (Luke is concerned with justice and with restraining dark, dangerous forces that would consume everything around them if freed; he is a swordsman, like Tyr, and like Tyr he is one-handed; he is a hero who makes painful sacrifices and takes risks for the common good) but he's not Tyr. Tyr is something bigger and more complex than Luke, and not all of Luke's attributes are congruous with Tyr. Likewise any Lokean will gleefully recognise their God under Jack Sparrow's eyeliner, but Jack, wonderful though he is, does not include all of Loki's nature.

The same goes for correspondances between Gods from different pantheons. Tyr and Mars, for instance, clearly have certain mysteries in common, as do Odin and Mercury, and we can learn a little about Tyr and Odin's respective natures by noting which Roman Gods the Romans thought most like Them. But Tyr is not Mars, and Mars is not Tyr; to attempt to cram Them side by side into a narrow little box marked WAR GOD is to lose all the wonderful complexity and beauty of both.
 
 
EmberLeo
21:56 / 07.02.07
I'm curious about something, Dedi. What makes you associate Shango with Venus and Babalu-Aye with Mercury?

I thought he pretty much spelled that one out, actually. Chango as Santa Barbara, Babalu as Lazaruz. Male/Female, yes? Or would that have been Venus/Mars?

Beyonce as Oshun

I think things like this depend a lot on whether Beyonce is a new face being added to the list of Paths, thus expanding our understanding of Oxun, or if Beyonce is being directly equated to Oxun, thereby narrowing our understanding. I am very fond of the former. I am very irritated by the latter.

I think I just said what Mordant said....

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:02 / 07.02.07
If it was male/female I'd go for Mars rather than Mercury. The symbols in common use for male and female are Mars' shield and spear, and Venus' looking-glass. That's why I was curious. If I was looking for Mercury's opposite number amongst the Lwa or the Orisha, I guess I would look at Papa Legba or Eleggua, although obviously there are no exact cognates.
 
 
EmberLeo
22:04 / 07.02.07
But he seems to be more of an alchemist. Is Male in that context Mars or Mercury? I know "Hermaphrodite" comes from Hermes/Aphrodite...

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:12 / 07.02.07
I'm not that great when it comes to HCM gear, but it's my understanding that Hermes was seen as having male and female attributes, so I guess the God Mercury was too... I seem to remember that in alchemy, the element of Mercury is seen as having both male and female attributes.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:20 / 07.02.07
...and I'm pretty sure that the use of the astrological symbols for Mars and Venus to represent male & female is a holdover from the days when alchemy was just another hard science, but don't quote me on that...
 
 
Quantum
12:35 / 08.02.07
the element of Mercury is seen as having both male and female attributes.

Yup, changing and Mercurial. In alchemy Male=Iron, which corresponds to Mars, Tyr and Tuesday. Although Hermes is the male in Hermaphrodite and the Latin equivalent would be Mervenus or something, it's misleading. Here's a list to clarify;

PLANET METAL
Moon silver
Mercury mercury
Venus copper
Sun gold
Mars iron
Jupiter tin
Saturn lead
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:40 / 08.02.07
I really need to brush up on this side of things, even if I don't practice that way anymore. I am soooooo rusty, it's not even funny.
 
 
grant
16:11 / 08.02.07
In statues of St. Lazarus, he's usually depicted holding a crutch (a stick with a curvy bit at the top) and with one foot off the ground (limping, or mmmmaybe running quickly). Thus, you know, Mercury.

whenever we play Him Elvis records. Must be something about “The King”.

Favorite etymology: "Elvis" from "Al-viss" meaning "All-wise," a kenning for Odin. The King who sacrifices himself, who returns from the land of the dead, and who wanders among ordinary mortals incognito.
 
 
Quantum
17:21 / 08.02.07
Not that St Lazarus *isn't* equivalent to Mercury, but it seems a tenuous parallel;





I'm just sayin'.
 
 
Ticker
18:12 / 08.02.07
The King who sacrifices himself, who returns from the land of the dead, and who wanders among ordinary mortals incognito.

I love it when Archetypes take to the streets.
 
 
grant
18:16 / 08.02.07
Oh, I think you're right -- it was just the first thing that came to mind.

Hermes is a better fit with Eleggua (messenger, linguist, tricksy), who's also sometimes syncretized with Lazaro because of the stick. A walking stick -- he's an old man, sometimes. But Eleggua is also San Antonio (playing with kids, holding long lilies) and Papa LaBas is also Saint Peter (keys and gates and croziers).

Same way Ochosi (Cubano) is an Indian with arrows, while Oxosi (Brasiliano) is St. Sebastian, all stuck up with arrows.

I have no idea, however, if these saintly crossovers ever extend to syncretizing the orisha themselves -- if because Lazaro is in some houses a road of Eleggua and in some houses a road of Babalu, that means that people acknowledge a double nature of Eleggua and Babalu (moreso than Eleggua's naturally doubled nature with everything), I have no idea.
 
 
grant
18:16 / 08.02.07
My last to the FTD florist.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:44 / 08.02.07
Favorite etymology: "Elvis" from "Al-viss" meaning "All-wise," a kenning for Odin.

Another suggested derivation I've seen is "El-vin," noble friend or elf-friend. Alviss is also the name of a dwarf who gets pwnt by Thor.

(Where is Alviss given as a kenning for Odin? I'm not saying it's not, I just can't remember seeing it anywhere.)
 
 
grant
19:33 / 08.02.07
I think I got that from Brewer's -- or maybe Marvel Comics, where he gets called "Odin Allwise" allatime.

Funny -- I look at Havamal and find the name stuck with Jotuns:

142. Hidden Runes shalt thou seek and interpreted signs,
many symbols of might and power,
by the great Singer painted, by the high Powers fashioned,
graved by the Utterer of gods.

143. For gods graved Odin, for elves graved Daïn,
Dvalin the Dallier for dwarfs,
All-wise for Jötuns, and I, of myself,
graved some for the sons of men.


The grammar there is confusing enough that I can't tell if them giants is objects or subjects.

Google also gives me this bit of the Prose Edda, where Odin engages in a wisdom-contest with a Jotun he calls "all-wise" a couple times. And then beats him. More on that in wikipedia. There's another translation here. Apparently the "all-wise" tag is also applied to the Vanir (??) in the course of that rhyme-off.

So, I'm more confused than ever - a dwarf? a giant? Vanir?

The King??
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:38 / 08.02.07
We should probably take further discussion of that particular tangent over to the Northern Mysteries thread, as we've now veered allll the way off topic.
 
  

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