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Topics of Concern- Banning

 
  

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Ticker
18:20 / 30.08.07
Open membership absolutely requires a fast, simple, non-frustrating banning system. Without it, it's idiotic.

yeah that's what I'm thinking. It's not about hiding away from google sent tourists as much as being bale to quickly and with low energy output get rid of the problem ones.

Last time the board was open it was over run with trolls? No retooling has occured since..yes?

My understanding of other boards is a shitload more active mods who can approve a ban based on a poster being warned x amount of times? Not so much the collective sit down rumination?

could we increase the number of active mods per forum, give them ban recommendation power like for editing posts, and have someone who can quickly change the db?


I mean so long as there are backups of the db to roll back to giving a long term solid poster access isn't unheard of.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
18:27 / 30.08.07
Tom won't do that.

Any decent solution you come up with that isn't stupidly complicated, time-consuming or limited, XK? That's the answer to it. That, or "Tom *can't* do that".

A board where the only person able to enact a ban is a person who's never there? That's a broken board. That's a board that has NO future. That's a board where any and every good thing that its members suggest is only so much hot air.

As much as I understand that his decision on this is one that comes from a good place, unless Tom comes to understand and acknowledge this, then do something practical about it, this board is that board.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
18:36 / 30.08.07
If anyone wants me, I'll be in the cellar, looking for the things I'd like to take with me.

Depressed meself now :/

Open it up, whatever. But anybody who agrees to take on the Tom-contacting job in that case should prepare themselves for a suffocating feeling of total uselessness.
 
 
Ticker
18:47 / 30.08.07
Unless I'm totally missing something I'm not clear on why an auth logged in person like the proposed ban squad couldn't go here and see an extra button next to someone's suit and click BAN to change the db? Again I'm sorry if I'm not understanding something but it is just another db field to be pulled up and connected to the already existing page? the db can already be tweaked by users as mods to edit posts. There are already mod perms, yes?

What if the existing mod perms of 3 approvals, any three mods, could be attached to editing the suit db? Would that be horrible?

Are we really afraid three of our mods aren't capable of making the decision? do we really need it to be an ultra team?

also Tom did make the recently updated thread so I'm not 100% certain he wouldn't consider making a new piece if it was simple enough and built off of existing functionality?
 
 
grant
19:31 / 30.08.07
I believe he did that before his current, high-pressure job at Yahoo.

There *is* one thing that could be done, I think, that's more like the wiki - well, sort of.

The thing is, I don't have any *real* control over the wiki content (Spatula's comment makes me smile, actually). I don't have banning powers - although they're possible, I simply haven't been granted them. All I can do is, in effect, switch pages off - make them uneditable. And I have a button that makes undoing an edit (in effect, deleting it) slightly easier to do.

When it's running correctly, any user can edit anything on the wiki. And any user can look on the Recent Changes to see what edits have been made lately. And anything that can be edited can be deleted by anyone who's looking at it.

So, the wiki-ish answer to banning on the message board would be something like a delete-on-sight list, accessible to every moderator, checked by every moderator, and enforced (or at least not vetoed) by every moderator. I think this could work, but for some forums we'd need quite a few more moderators active on the board in different time zones/times of day. I don't think any banned user, no matter how driven or encoproetic, would be capable of keeping up any kind of posting frenzy for any sustained length of time, especially if there's no visible result that lasts longer than 15 minutes.

Then again, I always seem to be readier to delete posts than most of us.

----

Oh, and incidentally, I don't think spam would be nearly as much of a problem here as on the wiki; that stuff is spread by bots programmed to post on the popular MediaWiki software, but the message board is (presumably) unique enough not to be bot-friendly. Any spam would really just be the same thing as a problem poster.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
19:47 / 30.08.07
Mm, I was thinking that, but it's also software that was created a number of years ago - how much have bots progressed since then and how many holes are there in this board, due to the age of the code, that they look for as a matter of course?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:42 / 30.08.07
So, the wiki-ish answer to banning on the message board would be something like a delete-on-sight list, accessible to every moderator, checked by every moderator, and enforced (or at least not vetoed) by every moderator.

The last time we tried something of that order a couple of moderators vetoed the deletion requests.

It is possible, but it would need consensus, and would also potentially eat mod time. Do we have the 50 post limit still? Even with that a determined troll could cause a lot of hassle, even with a single user ID.
 
 
jentacular dreams
05:35 / 31.08.07
The last time we tried something of that order a couple of moderators vetoed the deletion requests.

Wasn't that was a reasonably long time ago though? I may be completely wrong but I've got the impression that the boards' general attitude towards banning and trolling has hardened a lot over the last few years?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
07:52 / 31.08.07
That doesn't mean those moderators aren't still moderators.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
07:57 / 31.08.07
Also built off of existing functionality?

See functionality implies something that works and I have this crazy feeling that the back end of barbelith may be a shambolic mess.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:48 / 31.08.07
Actually I think the amount of time it's taken to agree the edit of the comment above indicates that banning via moderation vote isn't particularly hott stuff.
 
 
grant
11:50 / 31.08.07
I think that's because EST hasn't gotten to the office yet. In effect, your moderation request is in the middle of the Atlantic, speeding towards sunrise in New York....
 
 
grant
12:41 / 31.08.07
And it's there!
 
 
Ticker
12:54 / 31.08.07
See functionality implies something that works and I have this crazy feeling that the back end of barbelith may be a shambolic mess.

Well from the error codes it occassional spews up it seems to be running MySQL, and while that can be messy there's an inherent structure and that seems to be working just fine. From the members page we know it is functionally pulling up a list of all ficsuits and from the working mod request forms we know people with mod status access viable mod-only pages.

So what I'm imagining is a piece of functionality cloned off of the existing mod change request page but is attached to the user table. Take the same code and change what table(s) it accesses.

Let's go to pretend land for a minute please. Let's pretend any three mods can boot someone off. Maybe we give the ultra team a mod clearing day and the only mods we have left after that are up to snuff, Gods know we have a shit load of unactive mods that need removing. Worse case is someone gets booted that shouldn't? then there's a bit of weirdness and we move on. That's what happens on other boards all the time. People get booted, make their cases elsewhere, and are allowed back in. Why are we being so precious about it if it gives us an open board policy?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:17 / 31.08.07
I wouldn't mind that particularly, as long as I got to choose which moderators were left. Problem with that being that everyday moderation actions might then slow down a bit - which is the case for having a tier between moderators and Tom. There used to be a philosophical objection to banning around these parts, but that has been largely abraded.

However, this is not going to happen if Tom a) does not feel able to code it himself and b) does not want other people to access the database. Unless the code is separated from the database or new software is developed, that's our impasse. Otherwise, we have to devise workarounds.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:20 / 31.08.07
Oh, PS. Could you identify where people are being "precious"? I think they might rather be acknowledging the reality of where we are, for which see above.
 
 
Ticker
13:34 / 31.08.07
sorry I meant precious not in the same sense I think you took it in...? I meant seeing banning as this epic no turning back event rather than the process of how to ban. I think we are all conditioned here to currently see it as such. Open board means easier return no?

Here's the more concise version of what I was rambling about over in the other thread as an option for Tom.

1. clone the Policy mod request page (make a copy of it)
2. edit the table and field the new page looks at to the user & password table/field
3. end up with a new page that allows Policy mods to change any suit's password.
4. Policy mods could then send emails requesting perm delete to Tom but the suit would be locked out unless the mods elected to give the user their new password.

so in my mind, not having crawled in the guts of the board but from what I see currently working, the easiest thing to do is tweak exsiting functionality. Make it easy for Tom to go in and make something new out of what is already working. Yeah?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:43 / 31.08.07
Passwords and email addresses - otherwise the "banned" user can simply request their new password be sent to them.

Otherwise, as before. If something has changed which now makes this a credible option, and not identified by Tom as not to be done, we could certainly do it, subject to some washing of the Policy moderator list. I doubt anyone would mind awfully. Especially if the banned could resubscribe using a different email address. Or, in fact, the same email address, unless a blacklist is maintained somehow. AS such, this would be a useless tool against trolls without a blacklist. But we could certainly do it, if it has become doable in the very recent past. As to whether it has, one would have to ask Tom.
 
 
Ticker
14:01 / 31.08.07
when the board was open how did the sign up process work? Just fill out the info ont he register page and get a suit or did something get emailed to confirm?

I know this is a shitload of workarounds rather than solid rebuild but sometimes that's how things work out. there are often ways to work with existing structures that take less time to do even if they are a bit less than shiny.
 
 
Ticker
14:04 / 31.08.07
sorry I should be more clear..

I'm thinking we might have to develop a work around the ban issue and develop one around registering. If we work them out it maybe much easier for Tom to implement them.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:55 / 31.08.07
I think we are using "workaround" to mean two different things. My use of workaround depends on the current reality of our situation - where nobody is going to get into the back end but Tom and (theoretically) Cal, and thus describes a human solution for streamlining the flow of information and action prompts to our sole agent (Tom). Your use seems to be based on the assumption that this is going to cease to be the current reality for some reason in the near future, and thus that a workaround is a technical, coded solution short of a recoding of the board. I don't think we have any evidence to suggest that this is the case.

However, just in case:

Admission process 1 - user sets username and password. Email address is optional - anything can be put in the field, so a false address can be used, but then if password is lost or forgotten it cannot be retrieved automatically.

Admission process 2 - after open admission shut down. Applicant submits request to email address, is placed in database, is examined and passed/failed by two separate trusted individuals. This process very efficient for keeping out trolls by dint of very rarely actually letting anyone in.

Admission process 3 - Applicants submit application to email address. These applications parceled out for checking. Assigned checkers check, ignore or eat applications.

Admission process 4 (current) - Applicants submit email to email address. Single person checks applications. On a 2-4 week rotation, passed email addresses are sent to Tom Coates. Invitations are sent to a screen where username and password can be set. Email addresses are stored on a database, to check against the member lists, in case somebody tried to generate multiple suits or use a dummy email address.

And:

Banning process 1: Tom alerted to bannable behaviour. Bannable behaviour limited originally to trolling, harrassment, holocaust denial, homophobic bullying. Tom bans or does not ban.

Banning process 2 (Shadowsax onwards) Banning thread created in Policy. Banning discussed. Tom invited to read discussion, follows perceived consensus on banning/not banning.

Banning proces 3 (current) Banning thread created as above.
Haus or Randy, when they feel consensus has been reached, or at least all opinion have been expressed, contact Tom with their understanding of the decision made. If other party disagrees, decision to ban/not ban postponed for further discussion.

Which I think brings us up to speed.
 
 
Ticker
00:26 / 01.09.07
yeah I'm talking about technical work arounds in terms of using the functionality we have, the people we have, and the least amount of restructuring.

So for troll proofing registration brainstorming I should go to the application thread to discuss process mapping options?
 
 
Ticker
12:01 / 01.09.07
I've been reading people's PMs and posts about their frustration with me bringing any of these suggestions up.

Because I have seen Tom make small changes and offer to turn existing functionality on/off I have been thinking if we asked him to make specific small changes that we would use willingly there is some chance that he might.

This seems to be making people feel that I am not listening to their long term experiences of the board or their struggles to improve it.

I have interpreted Haus' posts above to indicate that the possibility of Tom making small non time consuming changes is not completely outside of the realm of possibility.

It is not my intent to present options as if no one has done so previously. It is not my intent to ignore the long struggle to improve the ban/admissions processes.

I have seen Tom post recently that he is willing to turn things on/off and within months he has added a piece of functionality to the board. His schedule may have changed since then, he may no longer be willing to make any more small adjustments, but I feel that if we were to present him with concrete minor changes that he could make in an afternoon he might be willing to consider them. I could be on crack hoping for such a thing but he seems genuinely supportive of the site not dying.

It's been proven that he doesn't have time to redo the infrastructure, and I honor your frustration over the pain it has caused you over the years. I recognize other folks have offered countless suggestions and efforts to pitch in directly and been rejected. I'm sorry if I'm annoying the fuck out of you but I see a possibility in asking Tom to directly take action in small specific ways and to present him with potentially feasible options to do so.
 
 
HCE
14:11 / 01.09.07
xk, don't take my comment personally, please. It's a general irritation with the solution being tantalizingly obvious and yet frustratingly impossible. I'm not annoyed because of you as an individual. It just starts to feel like salting the wound after a while.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:08 / 01.09.07
I have interpreted Haus' posts above to indicate that the possibility of Tom making small non time consuming changes is not completely outside of the realm of possibility.


Well, it's not beyond the realms of possibiility, but precedent suggests that it might not happen - if I recall correctly, when the recently updated functionality was introduced, it led to a degree of unhappy comment to the effect that this was nice, but it was not any of the things that were being requested. However, we could make a list of specific, small changes we might ask to be made, as long as we understand that:

1) The only person who will be able to access the back end to make them is Tom (and theoretically Cal).
2) As such, if Tom does not have time to do it or is not sure how to do it - or indeed does not _want_ to do it - then it will not be done.
3) This means that things that may seem quite easy to the outside observer may be, functionally, impossible.

So, based on this model and on experience, there is a better-than-normal chance that any proposed change will not happen.

That said, if you fancy it, you might do it by, say, starting a thread titled "specific, small actions to be put in place before any chance to admissions", and list change, reason and benefit. So, as an example.

CHANGE: Applicants have to type in random set of letters and numbers arranged on a coloured background to validate their entry.
REASON: Bots, spammers and trolls can otherwise easily and automatically register large numbers of suits without countermeasures.
BENEFIT: Suits will not be registered as easily by trolls, spammers and bots, without significantly increasing the complication of registering a single suit for legal use.

CHANGE: Instead of allowing users to set their own passwords, a randomly-generated password is sent to their registered email address.
REASON: Currently, the process of validating users' unique email address is handled by a human being. Without this human interface, false email addresses could be used to generate very large numbers of suits.
BENEFIT: Each suit would be tied to a specific email address, which will not slow the registration of a single suit for legal usage to any significant degree, but will slow mass registration of suits for illegal purposes.

CHANGE: Only one suit can be registered per session (using cookies, e.g.).
REASON: Only one suit, generally, should need to be registered per session by any user.
BENEFIT: Mass registration of suits for illegal purposes would be made slightly more difficult and time-consuming, without affecting the experience of registering a single suit for legal uses.

CHANGE: Creation of a page containing terms and conditions, which need to be agreed to using a checkbox before registration can complete.

And so on.

However, if you do so you should accept that the chances of these very sensible, relatively simple-looking changes actually being made are from the lessons of history slim to none.
 
 
Ticker
19:02 / 02.09.07
ok but I'm thinking we need community consensus on some of these proposals before going to Tom? If we can say the majority of us want this specific small change it makes it easier for him to decide whether or not to implement it? I'd hate to waste his good will and time in making a change and then have some of us unhappy with it on a dramatic level?

So your model of:

CHANGE: Applicants have to type in random set of letters and numbers arranged on a coloured background to validate their entry.
REASON: Bots, spammers and trolls can otherwise easily and automatically register large numbers of suits without countermeasures.
BENEFIT: Suits will not be registered as easily by trolls, spammers and bots, without significantly increasing the complication of registering a single suit for legal use.


so it might also have:

SUGGESTED IMPLEMENTATION TECHNIQUE: CAPTCHA

CONSENSUS APPROVAL FOR REQUESTED CHANGE: REACHED
 
 
Ticker
19:06 / 02.09.07

gourami, no worries. I need to be more considerate of why people are frustrated and burnt out about trying to make suggestions.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:35 / 02.09.07
ok but I'm thinking we need community consensus on some of these proposals before going to Tom?

Oh, sure - although consensus is a bit of a tricky one. At best one would get agreement, tacit or otherwise, from the people who read the Policy. However, I think that's the only agreement one would need. Again, however, this may be an exercise in chasing rainbows. I wouldn't want you to be too upset if this doesn't go anywhere.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:53 / 02.09.07
I can see how the new system (that TC will ban on recommendation alone, without reading the thread or threads in question) might work, though. As an industry professional he presumably checks his e-mails on at least a daily basis; beyond that and pressing the relevany keys, what else would he have to do?
 
 
Ticker
22:50 / 04.09.07
Again, however, this may be an exercise in chasing rainbows. I wouldn't want you to be too upset if this doesn't go anywhere.

I hear ya. I think it's about expectations. If we do it as an exercise that might be beneficial it's different than if we do it with expected results.

I can see how the new system (that TC will ban on recommendation alone, without reading the thread or threads in question) might work, though. As an industry professional he presumably checks his e-mails on at least a daily basis; beyond that and pressing the relevany keys, what else would he have to do?

well with an open board a 1-2 day delay before a ban gets implemented could tire everyone out with a blazing display of crapitude on the part of the troll. So if the floodgate gets opened we could do with a bigger bucket in case of spillage. Especially if you have 6-10 trolls wheel in.

Has the board had more than 1 really active troll at a time?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:21 / 04.09.07
A couple. But really, until you've been there, you have no idea what a determined troll with a wardrobe full of ficsuits can accomplish.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:25 / 05.09.07
Which there may be ways around- like, if you get two trolls in a row from the same IP address, or who registered at the same time, you could ban the whole row of suits registered at that time of the day. However, these again depend on social engineering, and on human activity and volition - when the board was closed and we were getting regularly flamed, but only by suits registered in mid-2001, I repeatedly recommended shutting down all suits registered in mid-2001 and subsequntly unused, as being either suits that had been forgotten about (and were potentially hackable) or suits that had been registered specifically for trolling support, and I don't think that happened...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
08:54 / 05.09.07
Which is really our problem, we need an administrator who can make that judgement and carry it through quickly.
 
 
Janean Patience
12:43 / 05.09.07
suits that had been registered specifically for trolling support

beep
Hi, this is trolling support, how can I help you?

Hi, yeah, I've been kicked off my message board for calling everyone humourless gay assholes, and I want to get back on there and annoy them some more before their anger fades?

No problem sir, I'll set you up with a new identity and password... there, that should be waiting for you when you go back, and do remember to deny any connection with your previous suit for the first few days.

Is is okay to start a thread asking why that last guy was kicked off and saying how great he was, like a trickster figure?

It's almost mandatory, sir.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
16:10 / 05.09.07
Janean, did you really sign up in June 2006?
 
  

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