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The Barbelith Anime Primer

 
  

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Seth
02:11 / 21.01.07
I hate the current anime thread. Detest it. Every time I look at it I get annoyed. It’s a graveyard of superb television relegated to one line mentions in a catch-all topic that only serves to reinforce the idea of anime as a niche medium. It’s like having an American Live Action TV thread in which everything from Boston Legal to Battlestar Galactica, Ugly Betty to Lost, West Wing to Heroes is mentioned once and never mentioned again.

If I had my way it would be locked and left to sink like a stone, and every new movie and series would get its own shiny new thread like it deserves. This is what I’ve come up with that might hopefully act as a decent replacement to get some quality discussion going and act as an entry point for anyone who is interested.

Essentially this thread is for discussion of anime in general without getting sidetracked by in-depth discussion of individual series, and will hopefully act as a primer with a good old discussion about its general history and conventions, as it says in the abstract. All questions encouraged.

If you want to briefly recommend a show or film then write up a short paragraph here as introduction, preferably with links to where we can buy it/stream it/download it and maybe a link to its own separate thread for detailed discussion. Not just whatever you happen to be watching, try to provide examples that you consider to be exemplars in the medium. Please make descriptions as clear and inclusive as possible with as few anime fan only references as possible.


There’s a lot of things I’m interested in for ongoing discusion here (which may inevitably lead to spoilers for certain shows, please make sure they’re clearly marked), so here are a few ideas for starters:

- Female representations within anime, particularly as it relates to fan service and ‘Gainaxing.’

- Techniques developed for depicting a satisfying narrative in the space of twenty five minute episodes.

- Reasons why some people don’t tend to watch anime.

- Animation techniques.

- Voice actors and the art of voice acting.

- Favourite designers, writers and directors and what you like about them.

- How anime caters for fandom and how this might add or detract from the story.

- Multiple continuities between comics, video games and even other series under the same banner.

- The manner in which anime exaggerates and magnifies, particularly with regard animation techniques. The manner in which *realism* is treated.

- Suspension of disbelief, how and when anime shows like to break the rules of their own fictional universes and to what effect.

- Sequences that work on multiple levels at the same time, how several seemingly contradictory messages can be delivered at the same time.

- Homage within anime, how shows and films will openly reference each other.

- The manner in which a TV environment which is more open to miniseries or finite series by experimental creators is more conducive to good storytelling.

Many of these discussion points aren’t necessarily unique to anime, but when they crop up within anime they’re often handled in a manner very peculiar to the medium itself.

Having set those up as potential topics for debate, here’s some examples of anime for you to try out that I reckon are amongst the best the medium has produced. Please bear in mind that many of these series are constructed in a way whereby they suck in viewers through a seemingly simple set up and then start motoring from the halfway point, so it's worth sticking around if you really want to be blown away.

A hopefully useful primer:


Eureka Seven. Fat Lee vs Kitchen Magnet Guy describes it as a blend of FLCL, Blake's Seven, Final Fantasy VII and The Invisibles. I described it as a cross between Firefly/Serenity, The Invisibles, Romeo and Juliet, His Dark Materials, Evangelion/Gunbuster (1 & 2), Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind and Point Break, with lots of rave nostalgia and giant robots. The best design work in the medium, characters who by three quarters of the way through seem like real people and a total tear jerker. A fifty episode self-contained masterpiece that can be sampled here. Barbelith discussion here

Paranoia Agent. Massively multi-layered modular narrative experiment in which an investigation into a series of linked assaults committed by a kid with a baseball cap and bat becomes an endlessly surprising superflat odyssey in which the entire of post-war Japan is placed on trial. Like all the good bits of George Moribund with very few of the dodgy bits (ie; no sloganeering). Gets pretty damn emotionally affecting in the second half as well. A thirteen episode self contained mini-series, the first episode of which can be sampled here. Has its own Barbelith thread for discussion here.

Bleach. Imagine Buffy/Angel only on an epic scale straddling Earth, Heaven and Hell and with insanely imaginative magical sword fighting techniques. Has a massive cast of well drawn characters, is very funny, has great design work and is superbly plotted. Adapted very closely from an acclaimed comic of the same name. My favourite current ongoing TV series, one hundred and eleven episodes so far plus a cinema movie with no end in sight. You can sample the first episode here or torrent the lot from these wonderful guys. Barbelith thread here.

Ouran High School Host Club. Gender confusion and class differences abound with hilarious results in a high school for the stupidly rich. A self-contained series with Haus as the target audience. Sample the first of twenty-six episodes here. No Barbelith thread on this yet.

Neon Genesis Evangelion. The troublesome masterpiece. Begins like a children’s show and ends like a mindfuck horror film set in a world in which a psychosexual Book of Revelation is filled with murderous giant robots. It’s about child abuse, growing up in a cult, the apocalypse and hurting everyone you love. Particularly interesting for Freudian/Jungian analysis. Considered to be one of the classic anime texts of the Nineties, a global phenomenon worth in excess of two billion dollars. It's a twenty-six episode story with a two hour movie called End of Evangelion that replaces the final two episodes. Both endings are extraordinarily controversial. Buy it here. Is being remade as an anime in 2007 (info here) and is in development hell as a potential mega-budget live action Hollywood event movie (info here). Barbelith discussions here, here, here and here.

Azumanga Daioh. Six high school girls, a couple of teachers, a dog and a couple of cats with bad attitudes, with nothing much really happening. Top class character based humour, very silly, cute as a button and it’ll charm your ass off. Like a girls only version of Charlie Brown, instant happiness in twenty six episodes, should be prescribed by therapists. It also has the best voice acting you're ever likely to hear. There's a very funny extended trailer for the show that can be found here here. No thread on this, it's one of the rare examples of an unstoppably brilliant show that resists almost any kind of critical discussion. Azumanga Daioh simply is, and sometimes what it understood does not need to be discussed.

Gunbuster/Gunbuster II. The first Gunbuster is like Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game, with child soldiers being sent to battle an inhuman insectoid menace light-years from home, sacrificing everyone close to them in the process as relativity means that they literally live in a different time to their loved ones. A classic series from nearly twenty years ago. It can be purchased here. Don't be fooled by the dated look, it's one of my favourite stories in any medium. The sequel came out last year and is just as good, a very brave way of continuing the series as it seems barely related to the original for the first half. It's probably the best pure sequel to anything I've ever seen and you can stream it here, but I really wouldn't if you haven't seen the first one. Both are self-contained mini-series of six episodes each and can be discussed in this brand spanking new Barbelith thread.

The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya. Very funny fourteen episode self-contained achronological high school comedy about a girl who forms a club called the SOS Brigade, otherwise known as the Save the World by Overloading it with Fun Haruhi Suzumiya's Brigade, with the intention of uncovering all the aliens, time travellers and espers who she is convinced populate her home town. Like a lot of the series I mention here the closest reference point for an anime newbie is Grant Morrison. Deadpan lines like, "That explains the cave cricket incident" are utterly fucking hilarious in context. Erm, this is where you can see the first episode (a very funny amateur movie with tons of anime in-jokes), but as it's not told in chronological order then the story properly begins with episode two. I prefer watching it achronologically. There's a Barbelith thread on it here.

Serial Experiments: Lain. Creepy as fuck tale of a girl who goes too far into the internet and comes out a different person. Eerie, inexplicable, plays with notions of identity and self, plus an interesting take on some Gnostic ideas. It's anime doing David Lynch. It has is self-contained in thirteen episodes, can be purchased here and has its own Barbelith thread for discussion here

FLCL. Next to Evangelion this seems to be Barbelith's favourite anime. For fans of Grant Morrison/Peter Milligan and properly portrayed puberty parables. Insane gobbledygook fever dream akin to watching every other anime show at the same time, somehow still emotionally effecting. Great soundtrack, the best animation money can buy and extremely funny, with the best running eyebrow joke I’ve ever seen. A six episode self-contained story that can be purchased here. A very well loved Barbelith discussion can be found here.

I repeat: while none of these series are anything less than solid from the first episode, almost all of them are designed to suck in viewers with something that seems simple to begin with but becomes very, very complex later on. You can't really judge any of them with any accuracy until you've reached the halfway point (or episode seventeen, in the case of Bleach).

There are many glaring omissions to this list. I've only focused on series and mentioned no films, because in my experience series are most overlooked by casual viewers. I also find them much more rewarding that most anime films, of which I can't think of too many recent examples of good quality outside of the Ghibli output. Please add to the primer if there's something you consider to be exemplary, and please join me in discussing any topics that relate to the medium of anime in general (with discussions of specific shows in the relevant threads linked to above).
 
 
FinderWolf
18:39 / 22.01.07
Thanks, Seth - I don't know all that much about anime and I'll look forward to seeing how this thread evolves (and reading the other thread that you're not so crazy about). A friend was telling me about FLCL recently and she basically said it was totally random, crazy stuff but somehow engaging, someone's father sleeps with their girlfriend, etc. etc., a hand comes out of some guy's forehead, a woman wants to bring about the end of the universe by letting loose a spirit/entity which is trapped inside someone else's body.... I was kind of confused/mystified by it all.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
06:17 / 23.01.07
I am utterly embarrassed at the level of my enthusiasm in the first bits of the FLCL thread {still love the show).

Gender confusion and class differences abound with hilarious results in a high school for the stupidly rich. A self-contained series with Haus as the target audience.

I'm...not entirely sure what you mean by the last part. I enjoyed the series, I mean it has a pretty typical anime romance feel to it at times (the reverse harem idea is sort of novel) but the simple style of humor translates very well and the characters are fun and well developed.

Come to think of it, this series is a useful start for discussing

- Female representations within anime, particularly as it relates to fan service and ‘Gainaxing.’

and how well humor crosses cultural and linguistic barriers. But I'm going to bed now so we'll all have to wait.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
07:38 / 23.01.07
A couple of interesting (and well-crafted, if maybe a bit ideologically squidgy) series from the darker side of the sphere:

Elfen Lied: A brutally violent and button-pushing series focusing on a strain of mutant humans called "diclonus" that are being sequestered away and experimented on. The series is nasty and pulls no punches: it's the first anime I've ever seen that actually made me pull back from the screen, avert my eyes and say "aw, JEEZ" -- and veers into some really uncomfortable moral and social taboos. On the other hand, the small redemption that some of the characters find at the end of the series is a lot more poignant because of how horrible the world they live in is. Available only in fansub format, alas.

Gantz: High school students get killed in a subway accident and wake up with other recently dead people in a Tokyo apartment... and a huge black sphere. The sphere ejects weapons and super-suits and tells them to go kill an alien living incognito in Tokyo. And they do it. And a lot of them die. And that's just the first episode. I hated Gantz for the first three or four episodes -- it has the trappings of a bad 15-year-old FPS addict's fantasy. Guns, aliens, superpowers, girls with huge breasts that get naked a lot. But once the series starts rolling, you start noticing something moving under the surface: a very effective look at the nature of military service, othering, and the dehumanizing power of violence. Unfortunately, it sort of turns into crap at the end of the series -- which is also, and I'm sure this is no coincidence, the point where it diverges from the original manga.

Both of these series are a little less "classic" and both have elements that I find more than a little repelling, but they're definitely audacious. Occasionally I wonder if I'm straining to see something that isn't there to justify watching them, but I don't think so -- I think both series have a lot more going on under the surface than you originally think.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
01:36 / 24.01.07
Disclaimer: I'm confused as to wether or not the word "trope" can refer to a concept, but I'm using like it can. Please forgive me.

Okay, here we go. When I say that Ouran High School Host Club is a good series to start a discussion on female representations within anime, particularly as it relates to fan service and ‘Gainaxing, it is not because it showcases typical treatment of female characers in anime but rather the opposite.

For a show to be described as a "harem" anime, it usually must contain a single, central male character surrounded by a host of female characters who, at some point throughout the series, become romantically entwined with the male lead. This need not be the main thrust of the show (think Tenchi Muyo, Tenchi Universe, Tenchi in Tokyo, etc.), but it often makes up a huge part of the story (think Love Hina, for instance, where the romance is in the fore and just about every other part of the story helps progress the conflict resulting from the romance plot).

The female characters in this type of show are usually not as developed as the lead, which is not surprising in and of itself, but many shows simply do away with developing a believable story and opt instead to use the large female cast primarily as a fanservice agent (Maburaho, which is terrible, succumbs to this. Also, to an extent, Shuffle. These are shows I pulled from memory. There are many, many, many more). In these situations, the various classes of female character tropes are often clearly visible.

Which is not to say that harem comedies or dramas are pretty much all "bad shows" or simply not good shows--Amenaideyo!! is a harem comedy chock full of fanservice and stereotypical female character tropes, yet the female cast is given far more depth than the rather shallow every-man male lead. Which is not very much, to be honest, but it succeeds in being a successful comedy despite that.

So. As mentioned earlier, Ouran High School Host Club is sort a reverse harem, where the lead is a female high school student surrounded by a large male cast. To work off a debt incurred the first day of school, she joins the Host Club, staffed by stupidly rich young men who vie for her attention. Aside from a side character who eventually becomes the club's manager and plays bit parts here and there to get a story rolling, she is the only female character. Novel, for a high school comedy/romance.

Also reversed are the stereotypical "harem" tropes: they are present, but apply only to the male members of the club, which they openly acknowledge throughout the series. When Haruhi joins, disguised as a young man, she too is expected to play to some sort of expectation. There is practically never any point where the typical female stereotypes are called in, certainly never in regard to Haruhi. The head of the club, who is the main romantic interest, continually tries to get Haruhi to act "more female", despite that this will result in her no longer being able to perform her duties as a club member.

Also absent is fanservice--at least, typical fanservice, which usually includes suggestive poses, lots of bare skin, the so-called "panty shots", extreme cleavage and bouncing, and general objectification and over-sexualization (is that a word?) of the animated female body. Straight male anime fans will be disappointed if they seek traditional fanservice in Ouran High School Host Club. Any fanserive seems aimed at women or gay men, as the club's purpose is to entertain the ladies and whatever gay men (none are ever shown, but y'know) attend Ouran High. And since Haruhi is a member, she disguises herself as a young man and works with the other members, who uses whatever unique traits they posses to entertain (for instance, the twins use something they refer to as "twin-cest", where they (not too) subtly hint at a sexual relationship between them, to the delight of the customers of the Host Club).

Now for the comedy: Ouran High makes me wonder how and why certain types of comedy cross the language and culture barrier better than others. Obviously, puns and pop-culture references will be lost on an audience that is not native the country a given show is created in, especially compared to character based humor or sight gags. But what about things like comedic timing? Or facial expressions? Is there a standard for these things throughout the world (as far as comedy goes)?

One thing I've always been a sucker for is somebody absent-mindedly tossing an object off-screen, followed by a shattering-glass/ceramic sound effect in the backround noise. That always gets me. I loved it when Rocko's Modern Life did it, which was almost every episode, I love it when Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law does it.

When it happened in Ouran High School Host Club, I laughed and then thought to myself "I don't think I've ever seen that comedic device in anime before". I've seen plenty of anime comedies, most of which are lost on me. Several shows produced within the last few years, however, have reached me in this regard. I wonder why that is. I don't think it's because my tastes have changed, or that I am more open to receiving the jokes. I recognize the jokes in less modern anime comedies. They just don't make me laugh. What does it mean when, as expected, anime comdey changes and grows throughout the years? Only to become more recognizable to me, an american?

Hell, does comedy mature like film making and other arts? Or, if not "mature", did it develop along a certain time frame? And on a global level? Does the fact that I relate to more modern japanese animated comedies mean that they are adapting to us, or we to them, or that we are approaching some sort of unified comedic theory? Or is a breaking glass sound effect funny to some people in every culture, and always has been? If so, why can't I remember ever seeing it before?

More and more, anime comedies are reminding me of Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law and other "western" comedies. Am I a fool for seeing "western" style comedy in anime more frequently? Is there even such a thing as "western" style comedy? Would it help if I watched more foreign comedy outside the anime genre (well, actually, that's a dumb question. Of course it would)? Somebody give me a hand here.
 
 
Essential Dazzler
14:31 / 24.01.07
Would it be useful for people to mention wether they prefer dubbed or subbed versions of the series' they recommend? I'm never sure which version to look for. I'm assuming that some work better than others in either format.

I have a really high tolerance for on-screen ickyness but Elfen Lied really, really upset me at one point. The flashback that reveals exactly went down on the train is one of the most distressing things I've ever seen.

Also I just came across a page which had the entirety of Eureka Seven as Rapidshare links, is it appropriate to share that kind of thing outside of PMs?
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
14:43 / 24.01.07
My fault: should have pointed to the Elfen Lied thread already in play -- I think Seth's intention was for this to be more of a repository that spawns threads. But I'd love to discuss Elfen Lied more there. The train scene drove me right up the wall too, and I have a hard time parsing "effective use of extreme images" vs. "blood porn."

As far as posting links to things, I personally get squidgy when I see anything outbound to copyvio material, partly because (a) it'll be gone and outdated in a matter of days, most likely, and (b) teh legal stuffs. But I'm not exactly an authority on that stuff.
 
 
Seth
21:07 / 24.01.07
Tuna Ghost: Regarding my description of Ouran High School Host Club… Haus has been known to get a kick out of reading frightening amounts of trashy teen romance. Reckon he'd like the setting and the class and gender stuff too.

Quarter Circle: Without exception I will always go for a subtitled version. This is for the following reasons:

- Never underestimate the value of decent voice acting. It's one of the least mentioned aspects in anime criticism and in my opinion one of the most important for characterisation. In Japan there are courses set up, even whole academies I believe I heard, for this discipline. If you've never focused on this side of things then try watching a few episodes of Azumanga Daioh in order to get a sense of what a difference it makes. I'm talking specifically about the high school girl characters, but you could equally apply it to the teachers. Contrast the deliveries of the actors; Tomoko Kaneda's energy and innocence as Chiyo; Chieko Higuchi's bluster and deranged shouting as Tomo; Rie Tanaka's seriousness and irritability as Yomi; Yu Asakawa's hesitancy and shyness as Sakaki; Yuki Matsuoka's incredible transparency, vagueness and detachment as Osaka; Houko Kuwashima's tomboyishness and intensity as Kagura. Each nails it and the differences between their work is striking.

To capture a character when all you have to work with is your voice is an extraordinary gift, and one that is rarely given the attention it deserves in animation from much of the rest of the world. Where would Evangelion be without Megumi Ogata and Megumi Hayashibara's frankly terrifying performances for Shinji Ikari and Rei Ayanami respectively? A lot of animation adds a couple of named stars on to boost the profile of the film, but seldom can they convey anything like the range of someone who has dedicated themselves to the craft.

The dub of Evangelion was an abomination, by the way. Let us never speak of it again.

- Many anime titles add a lot of extraneous material in their dubbed incarnations. The Studio Ghibli dubs are particularly guilty of this. Extra exposition or goofing around is added when character's mouths are not immediately in shot. This not only detracts from the economy of the piece (in a lot of anime, less is more), it can also destroy important story and character moments.

Take Spirited Away, for example. In the subtitled version Chihiro sees the dragon from the balcony being chased by the paper birds. Instinctively she calls out to it as Haku, and then does a double take as she realises that there's no way she could possibly have known it was him. It speaks volumes for the bond between the two and Chihiro's growing sensitivity and the changes that have taken place in her since she has come to the bath house, how she has become acclimatised to that world. However, in the dub when Haku leaves her much earlier in the film she looks up, sees him flying off as a dragon and says something along the lines of, "Oh, Haku is also a dragon," as though she were a witness to the transformation.

- Some things take a lot longer to say in English, some things take longer to say in Japanese. When the movement of a character's mouth is in shot you have a finite amount of time to get the lines in, and often English voice actors have to go through a lot of verbal gymnastics in order to make what they're doing synch to the animation. This might also be noticeable in the placing of emotional stress of the delivery is in each line and how that tallies with facial expressions, as it will come typically in different places in a sentence than it will in the Japanese original. As a result the characterisation of the animation may not match the characterisation of the voice acting. This pulls you straight out the moment and ruins believability.

- It generally doesn't matter how much you put on screen with subs, although sometimes they have to move pretty quickly to get everything in (see FLCL for pretty much the ultimate example) you can usually trust that it's accurate to what is being said. Well, as much as any translation can be said to be accurate. Of course, you'll miss out on the puns. Different translations differ in accuracy and potency: I still wish that my copy of that episode of Evangelion used the word 'rape' as I originally saw it on the fansubbed VCD rather than the considerably weaker 'defile.'

Some fansubs are excellent in this respect, coming with all sorts of explanatory notes for some terms, or exposition on cultural references with which a Western audience will be less familiar. I've seen various translations of Bleach, for example, and while I can't remember which translator gives all the footnotes I have to say it greatly enhances the experience. It was really interesting in my copies of Eureka Seven to notice that the translation for some words (specifically regarding the Coralians) changed as the series progressed and the fansubbers cottoned onto the official English versions of certain terms. It actually added quite a lot, as each correction seemed like a narrative reveal, in that once the correct term became clear there was a dawning realisation, "Oh, that was what was going on."

Hope that helps. In summary, always go with the subs!
 
 
Seth
21:20 / 24.01.07
The only places where subs can be difficult is when there are two or sometimes three vocals at once. There's one scene in Death and Rebirth (later added back into an episode on the Evangelion Platinum Editions) where there's dialogue from three sources simultaneously and the screen fills with subs. When this happens it's important that each is consistently in a different place on screen or in a different colour or font. Subs without outlines, or white on a white background are also incredibly frustrating.

Also when there are different kinds of dialogue, say there might be voiceover narration in the same scene as dialogue, or characters speaking over a tannoy or communications device at the same time as characters who aren't (my copies of Eureka Seven did well with this using different fonts). Although you can have some fun with this, see the Haruhi Suzumiya thread for some of my speculation on how this series subverts the notion that voiceover is always a separate thing to dialogue.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
01:29 / 25.01.07
Tuna Ghost: Regarding my description of Ouran High School Host Club… Haus has been known to get a kick out of reading frightening amounts of trashy teen romance.

Huh. Go figure. I suppose Ouran High School Host Club would suit him, then. If I thought he had any interest in this thread, I would let him know that all episodes are available on YouTube and that if he wants to watch them we won't tell anybody.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
02:27 / 25.01.07
Decided to respond to this statement here.

It wasn't even remotely in jest.

My mistake, it was worded so strongly that I didn't think it was a serious statement.

Yes, there's a lot of poor anime out there, but when it's good it stands far above almost any other cult telly.

I have a hard time believing that a fan such as yourself would describe it as "cult telly". Even here in the west it's quickly becoming mainstream (in the U.S., anyway. I confess I don't know what the deal in the U.K. is).

I suppose we have a discussion over what constitutes "cult telly". But that's really neither here nor there, methinks.

I can easily understand why you feel anime is superior to live action--after all, the level of control a creator or director has is far greater than he/she would when dealing with live action. In animation, one can control every detail of the enviroment, the lighting, facial expressions, the entire appearance of every single character...basically everything that is visible on screen.

And it also has the well-established conventions and stereotypes, which I think helps convey ideas much quicker. How many times have you started watching a series and, one episode in, you feel like you've already seen half the characters and know how the story will go (and, come to think, how many times have you been disappointed by how very predictable a given show is)? I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing. Talented writers and directors can take these conventions and twist them into interesting shapes and really take you for a ride. This isn't unique to anime, but I do think it's much more evident in anime than any other media.

But...but but but but but...there's the believability factor to deal with. Just because you and I are quite capable of suspending our disbelief to absurd levels if it means we'll get to the good stuff doesn't mean everyone is willing to, and that does hold anime back as a whole.

Don't get me wrong--a skilled director/writer can cut through disbelief and pull you into a moment in a heartbeat. There's a scene in the second Urusei Yatsura movie (if you haven't seen it, do try to. It's a fantastic film, diverging wildly from the subject matter of the television series and the other movies, and all the more superb when you consider that the writing and animation crew were still churning out the television series week after week with no seasonal breaks while they were putting the second movie together), a scene that notably marks that the movie has headed out of romance/comedy territory and into somewhere weird.

One character is putting together clues to a theory that is unbelievable to everyone except the audience, who already sort of know what's going on. As the character is putting things together, you can see a picture of what's going on being assembled in the second character's mind. Remarkable, given that the facial expression on the second character's face never changes. The scene may very well be a single shot that's held for a while while the dialouge goes on. But the audience can tell that character 2 is putting it all together. More than that, when you start to notice one of the clues (cicadas singing in the backround, something you realize must have been going on for a while without you ever really noticing), you can tell that at that exact same moment the second character is noticing it as well, and that she is thinking the same thing you are. "How long have those cicadas been singing without me even noticing?"

Afterwards, I was shocked that I been "sucked into" a scene so completely--forget suspension of disbelief, I was there, in the room, feeling the chill run down the second character's spine when she notices the cicadas.

But, really, that sort of thing can happen with live-action very easily, wihtout having to suspend much disbelief. So often that I don't even take much notice when it happens. I expect good television to suck me in like that, something I don't expect from most anime. I just don't think you can support the statement

When it's good anime stands far above almost every other cult telly

beyond your personal preference.

Um, sorry to take up all the time you spent reading that just to arrive at my pretty pedestrian point.
 
 
Seth
04:24 / 25.01.07
I just don't think you can support the statement

When it's good anime stands far above almost every other cult telly

beyond your personal preference.


I thought that was a given in these Spectacle forums. It's harder to argue passionately from E-Prime.

Although I do think it's worth writing up something on why I've consistently found these shows more rewarding that other telly. I'll reply in more detail over the next few days.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
07:36 / 25.01.07
Has anyone seen 'Saki Psycho Woodsman Salaryman! Blood?'

I'll admit to have not seen it myself (I've only read the reviews) but it does seem a bit hardcore.

I guess I'd hid behind the sofa. Crying.

But I suppose that makes me seem like a nonce, right?!

Well that's where you'd be wrong, you ...

Oh God, how can I continue?

I'm not a nonce, though.

I love ... but I'm not a nonce.

Ok?
 
 
Seth
14:02 / 25.01.07
Behave, granny.

I have a hard time believing that a fan such as yourself would describe it as "cult telly" … I suppose we have a discussion over what constitutes "cult telly". But that's really neither here nor there, methinks.

Yeah, sorry. That was lazy of me. I tend to use terms like this without clarifying them, or use the same term in two totally different contexts, and then wonder why people don’t telepathically *get* what I’m trying to say.

I agree with you that my usage of the term wasn’t particularly relevant to what we’re talking about right now, but maybe chatting about these kind of terms and what they mean might be interesting later on.

And it also has the well-established conventions and stereotypes, which I think helps convey ideas much quicker. How many times have you started watching a series and, one episode in, you feel like you've already seen half the characters and know how the story will go (and, come to think, how many times have you been disappointed by how very predictable a given show is)? I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing. Talented writers and directors can take these conventions and twist them into interesting shapes and really take you for a ride. This isn't unique to anime, but I do think it's much more evident in anime than any other media.

I guess you could make a similar argument about a lot of TV in a certain genre. I mean, shows like Firefly, Battlestar Galactica, Farscape, Babylon 5, Blakes Seven and all incarnations of Star Trek all have a huge amount in common with each other, are basically very similar shows. That’s not taking anything away from any of them, I enjoy some of them very much. But there’s a rough template there for what you expect to see.

Anime generally takes it just that bit further in places, with very specific and easily noticeable references to other shows. This is something that I find really interesting, and while there can be a fine line between the generic copycat and the knowing multi-referential riff it’s almost like there’s a Crisis of Infinite Anime each show feeds into others. It has some strange effects, in that after the very clear technobabble pastiche in the Aim for the Top! science lessons you know that any show that references Gunbuster is likely to be quite knowing and playing fairly fast with the silly science that provides its background.

But...but but but but but...there's the believability factor to deal with. Just because you and I are quite capable of suspending our disbelief to absurd levels if it means we'll get to the good stuff doesn't mean everyone is willing to, and that does hold anime back as a whole.

I think this issue is infinitely weirder and more complex than the manner in which you’ve described it. I agree that not everyone will be able to cope with such an onslaught of the bizarre (especially if they have next to no familiarity with the tropes and how they’re used), but the relationship between anime, *realism* and believability is something that deserves to be discussed at length.

First of all, it might be worth mentioning in passing that I don’t think it’s just me that’s tired of a lot of what passes for verisimilitude and gritty realism in modern film and TV. It’s a matter of style and not substance in a lot of cases, with a lot of supposedly naturalistic acting and lighting and shaky camera work and a bit more of an edge in the sex and violence stakes. The difficulty is that this has the reverse problem. Having set up a world in which they want things to at least appear *real,* the instant that the writers, or the actors, or the effects staff slip up is the instant the house of cards falls apart and you as viewer lose a part or all of your investment. Of course it was all an illusion to begin with, the show was probably as bobbins as The Next Generation but because it was set up to seem real people had a greater level of acceptance for it from the start.

I would argue that suspension of disbelief and how its treated in anime is frequently the polar opposite of this approach and one of the things that makes it so singular as a medium. It often appears that creators go out of their way to emphasise the pulp and trashy aspects of their work in order to set up a framework of disbelief at the outset of the story. Sometimes the manner in which this is done reeks of pomposity, but at its best it’s evidence of an extremely silly sense of humour, irreverence, fond homage, pop culture riffing, imagination and a general playfulness with ideas.

As it’s meta beyond meta and can be spoken about without spoiling the meat of the plot, I’ll site Gunbuster as an exemplar for a lot of my points here. The first episode sets up the series as a very deeply silly mix of Aim for the Ace! (a sports anime) and any number of giant robot series you might care to mention (I’ve heard Macross is the most cited example but I’ve never seen it myself). The episode is filled with a lot of robots doing press-ups, sit ups and building human pyramids. The training montage blatantly rips off Chariots of Fire. It’s very funny, but what exactly does it have to do with the subsequent five esisodes of the show besides establishing that Noriko is misunderstood and bullied?

This is a heavily constructed medium, after all. Why is the whole first episode so totally different in tone to what is to come. It’s not an accident, everything in there is intentional, even if it may seem to have subtext that the creators may not have noticed.

It’s my contention that creating an atmosphere of disbelief, of not knowing quite exactly how to take what you’re seeing, lays a great bedrock to suddenly inject realism in a manner that’s quite unexpected. Think of the number of shows that feature grossly exaggerated emotional displays, with all the usual red in the face shouting, sweat drops, sweat clouds, veins bulging on foreheads, that are all essentially played for laughs and deal with the awkwardness that often surrounds emotional outbursts, and then suddenly the emphasis changes and a character’s emotional response is understated, or genuinely frightening, or complex in its subtext. Often in anime there can be a large number of these shifts between seriousness in tone and the bizarre in a very short space of time.

They’re doing something very different with the notion of suspension of disbelief. Many creators know that they’re working in a trash medium and they seem to love the fact. It’s a cartoon. They know that you’re not supposed to take cartoons seriously. They love the freedom it gives them. And so they overload it with all sorts of strangeness, get you to the stage where you wonder exactly what it is you’re seeing and how you should take it, push you further and further into the absurd, and then all of a sudden sucker punch you when you’re not looking. I think they’re trying to take you to a place where the way in which you understand the show makes you not care whether its believable or not, and then they’ll throw in their curveballs. It’s suspension of belief by re-writing what the audience thinks they can believe in.

Take Aim for the Top! It’s a common anime device to have sections like this, in which characters poke fun at themselves and the series, talk to camera and generally act very silly. Noriko makes a ton of anime in-jokes, they take what many shows would treat as the bedrock of believability behind a sci-fi show – the cod semi-science that explains how the world operates – and overload it with irreverent references to women’s jewellery, starbows, ice-seconds and the like. The audio-only talent show in which Amano and Ota do some deeply daft karaoke is juxtaposed against a transcript of a total gobbledygook science lecture that scrolls in the background. It’s such a jarring mix that you have no idea how to interpret it all, what reading is intended. And then Noriko has the nerve to appear at the end of episode four and tell you that Studio Gainax’ budget has only just been approved to finish the series and that they’ve only got the scripts and titles ready for the final two episodes.

Virtually every anime I’ve seen breaks the fourth wall in this manner, generally in seemingly superfluous sections at the end of episodes or the next episode preview. Probably to save money on employing a narrator for these sections the voice actors reappear, in character, and talk directly to the viewer, with Misato provocatively promising us more Misato fanservice in the next show and Haruhi and Kyon squablling over what episode should get shown next in the running order. What are you to make of this?

Or how about Bleach? After seeing some super-serious flashback sequence you’re all of a sudden pitched into Shinigami Cup Golden, in which we find out how long it takes psychopath Zaraki Kenpachi to do his hair, why Byakuya carries sweets in his sleeves, the terrifying fact that Yachiru is the head of the Soul Society Women’s Institute and far too many references to the size of Matsumoto’s breasts.

Hang on. We’re not supposed to see these characters acting like this. What’s canon here? How am I to take this? There’s something very different going on with what you’re being taught about believability.

Or how about all those occasions where an anime breaks its own rules? How many times in a series have you seen a mech control panel, seen the pilot operate it with switches, handlebars, pedals and (in Eureka Seven’s case) a gearstick, only to suddenly find that when the going gets really intense an inexplicable psychic connection suddenly forms between robot and pilot. Take the climax of the Gunbuster’s final mission, the way in which it activates Buster Machine No. 3. I’m trying to avoid spoilers here, and I’ll write about this sequence more in the GB I & II thread because I think it’s almost symbolic of the whole medium and the weird things it does, but when Noriko and Gunbuster act as one and tear themselves open, have we seen a precedent for that in the show up to that point? It’s one of the emotional cruxes of the whole series, but what has happened to believability? Is it important at this point? And could such an audacious effect have been achieved without spending a lot of time watching robots doing push-ups earlier on? I doubt it.

Or take Shinji’s alternate reality in the final episode of Evangelion. It’s arguably the most powerful scene in the whole series, it works on about four or five levels at once. But it wouldn’t have had a hundredth of its power without a preceding thirteen episodes frontloaded at the start of the series that were literally littered with silliness.

I guess the distinction that I’m trying to make is that a lot of my favourite anime doesn’t try to make you believe, it tries to disorient you. It tries to undermine your usual critical faculties by whatever means necessary, to work a change in the viewer in which they become accustomed to a very different take on what is acceptable and believable. In this respect I don’t think FLCL is that different to most other anime, it’s just more of the same only more extreme.

A lot of anime seems to belong in spirit to a different strand of television, much more akin to The Avengers, Dr Who, The Prisoner or the original Star Trek. If these seem high benchmarks then by way of explanation, I tend to do a lot of research into a show before I’ll watch it. I’ll avoid spoilers if possible, of course. As a result I rarely watch any that I don’t like. I’ve certainly seen a lot of rubbish, but most of it dates back to when it first started getting major releases in England and I’ve seen very little that I haven’t enjoyed in recent years.
 
 
Seth
14:13 / 25.01.07
Of course, I agree with you that not everyone will like that approach to suspension of disbelief.
 
 
Seth
14:49 / 25.01.07
…the level of control a creator or director has is far greater than he/she would when dealing with live action. In animation, one can control every detail of the enviroment, the lighting, facial expressions, the entire appearance of every single character...basically everything that is visible on screen.

It’s also worth bearing in mind how a finite length can improve a story, especially if you know what that length is likely to be before you begin. Common formats like six, thirteen, twenty six episodes to a show telling a self-contained story. No difficulties posed by ongoing shows, like actors getting pregnant, arrested or dying.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
19:55 / 25.01.07
No difficulties posed by ongoing shows, like actors getting pregnant, arrested or dying.

True, although the people behind the shows do occasionally succumb to one or more of those. Didn't the creator or director of Bastard!! get arrested, thus prematurely ending the series?

Often in anime there can be a large number of these shifts.. ..in a very short space of time.

One thinks of Higurashi no Koro ni, whose shifts from comedy to horror are so sudden and jarring they can cause whiplash. A few episodes in I was watching and waiting for the shifts so as not to be taken by surprise again. "Alright, it's all fun and games now, but any second now something fucked up is going to happen, and I need to be ready..."

I agree that this is something that I don't think would work with live action, that it's something that works for pretty much just anime. Actually, I haven't seen enough live action japanese television to determine if it's used in a wider scope or not. Might be worth checking out.

First of all, it might be worth mentioning in passing that I don’t think it’s just me that’s tired of a lot of what passes for verisimilitude and gritty realism in modern film and TV. It’s a matter of style and not substance in a lot of cases, with a lot of supposedly naturalistic acting and lighting and shaky camera work and a bit more of an edge in the sex and violence stakes.

Also true. When it's obvious that the creators have gone to great lengths to portray a gritty sort of realism, when you realize that for all the naturalistic portrayals going on the characters are not really acting like real people, or worse, it's so "real" and "natural" it's boring, then the whole thing just sort of crumbles and it's no longer entertaining.

But y'know, for every ten television series that fail miserably in this aspect, one or two succeed. Rome and Deadwood are full of gritty realism, and they're both fine television most of the time. Arrested Development uses (used) shaky, hand-held camera shots to great effect (one begins to suspect that the camera man is actually a character in the show that has no lines. He's actually recognized once or twice by the other characters--a good example of breaking the fourth wall in a very subtle way).

I guess the distinction that I’m trying to make is that a lot of my favourite anime doesn’t try to make you believe, it tries to disorient you.

Yeah, I'll go with that, if I can replace "my favorite anime" with "successful anime produced by talented people". A lot of anime fails in attempting to achieve greater dramatic effect in ways similar to Evangelion. Mai Hime comes to mind. Knowing what they were going for makes the end of the series that much worse for it's failure.

I'm glad you extended your response--see, it's not all personal preference! There's artistic merits to be discussed.

Y'know, I 'm surprised at how much I could write about anime (I'm holding back in an attempt to deal only with the subject at hand). I never really thought about anime very seriously until recently.
 
 
Nocturne
11:50 / 27.01.07
Female representations within anime, particularly as it relates to fan service and ‘Gainaxing.’

Gainaxing: Could somebody define this? I've never heard it before.

I had something to say regarding female representations within anime, but it's coming out all broken and chopped up. Maybe I'll try again later.
 
 
uncle retrospective
14:38 / 27.01.07
Cheers for all the info I'm only begining to dip my toes into the dark, deep pool that is Anime and this thread his a huge help.
But could anyone point out where to get some of this? A lot of the shows being discussed aren't for sale, where do you get them?

Thanks.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
15:25 / 27.01.07
Gainaxing: Could somebody define this? I've never heard it before.

Also known as the 'Gainax bounce', this refers to the much-derided (or alternatively much-admired) tendency of Studio Gainax's animators to spend an inordinate amount of time and effort on realistic depictions of perky female breasts. It's a focal point for a lot of pretty much entirely justified accusations of endemic sexism in the medium of anime. For an illustration, here (for now) is a link to the opening sequence of Gunbuster... watch the bit where Noriko walks towards the 'camera' and the refrain "high, high, high, high!" kicks in. That's your Gainaxing.

I'm sorry I don't have a fully worked up post ready to enlarge upon this topic as I'd like - where's Decrescent Daytripper at? Ze always seems to have something worthwhile if not baffling in this vein. My own opinion is that while many anime titles I've watched to date (both regular and hentai) include sexual content and attitudes that frequently make my jaw hit the floor, I don't think that there's a form of sexism at play that's different enough from the kind we find in 'mainstream' entertainment to be prosecuted as a special case. Or to put it another way, I don't think our children need protecting from filthy Oriental smut.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
03:54 / 28.01.07
But could anyone point out where to get some of this? A lot of the shows being discussed aren't for sale, where do you get them?

YouTube, baby! All kinds of crap on there. That's where I view the bulk of my anime. I pay attention, keep an ear out, hear word of a series and then check it out on YouTube. Seven times out of nine it's a disposable, predictable series. But YouTube is where I first saw Ouran High School Host Club, School Rumble (funny stuff), Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, Gunbuster, as well as a whole bunch of eminently forgettable anime.

Also helpful is cable. I've never really watched British television and know very little about how it's set up...all I know is that my brother studied in Scotland for a semester and said the television was terrible (he also didn't have anything good to say about the quality of the education he recieved, but he's always been a high achiever so mabye he was just upset that nobody was paying special attention to him). Which is a shame, when I think about how my current cable package gives me roughly 150 channels (not counting movie channels), of which about six or seven show at least one anime series on a regular basis. And then there's On Demand, which comes with most digital cable packages, and has its own anime section comprised mainly of shows pulled from the Anime Network.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
04:04 / 28.01.07
Quarter Circle: Without exception I will always go for a subtitled version.

Another advantage of YouTube is that you can almost always find a subbed version of a show, which is hard to do with cable. Seth gives a number of good reasons why the subbed versions are almost always superior. A notable exception is the second Urusei Yatsura movie Beautiful Dreamer, which I recommend every chance I get (recently put up on YouTube, by the way). It's a shame I never got to see it in a theater, but watching at four in the morning on IFC stoned out of my gourd is a close second.
 
 
Seth
05:29 / 28.01.07
Fat Lee has the goods on Gainaxing. If you missed the section that ze is talking about in his link to the Gunbuster credits then here's a page that kindly has a gif of the section he mentions, looping for all eternity. Just don't blame me if the image of Noriko jiggling becomes burned into your mind forever. That gif link also has a lot more information on the subject, including the frankly terrifying fact that to some fans the unit of measurement for one full bounce is known as a Misty May.

I am trying to work up a post on these topics (fan service, female representations), but I'm thankful to say that having any kind of unified perspective is proving more slippery than I'd anticipated. I don't think it *should* be possible to look at an entire nation's output of cartoons and to draw a single simple argument from the analysis, and I'd thoroughly question anyone who thinks they can.

Again, Fat Lee is right here. A lot of people set their sights on anime for misogyny when it's pretty rife everywhere, and while this is no defence it's similar to the arguments many of us use so often in the Music forum when writing about hip hop, in that if someone is singling out examples of sexism from Japan and ignoring those within their own culture then you have to ask the question whether there are elements of unconscious racist attitudes coming into play. Although the term 'fanservice' was coined within anime, it helps to take the stance behind this wikipedia article and apply it to any examples you might care to find from any source. So there are huge elements of fanservice in Star Trek (Risa, treatment of bisexuality in the Mirror universe, short skirt uniforms in the original, vast swathes of Enterprise) and Lost (Sun stripping off for some supposedly character cathartic sunset beach swimsuit shots post temporary her break-up with Jin, etc). Following the logic of that article, it has also been applied to nudie male titillation and geeky referencing.

It could be argued that a lot of anime is very honest and self-aware about its representations and biases. Still thinking my way through this so no pretense at rightness or a coherent argument.

Tuna: One thinks of Higurashi no Koro ni, whose shifts from comedy to horror are so sudden and jarring they can cause whiplash. A few episodes in I was watching and waiting for the shifts so as not to be taken by surprise again. "Alright, it's all fun and games now, but any second now something fucked up is going to happen, and I need to be ready..." I agree that this is something that I don't think would work with live action, that it's something that works for pretty much just anime…

Rome and Deadwood are full of gritty realism, and they're both fine television most of the time. Arrested Development uses (used) shaky, hand-held camera shots to great effect (one begins to suspect that the camera man is actually a character in the show that has no lines. He's actually recognized once or twice by the other characters--a good example of breaking the fourth wall in a very subtle way).


Continuing your comparisons, you could argue that jarring shifts between drama, horror and comedy are one of Joss Whedon's specialities. I don't think the shifts are as bonkers as in a lot of anime but the similarity is there.

I love Arrested Development, by the way. And I've been meaning to check out Deadwood for a while.

Y'know, I 'm surprised at how much I could write about anime (I'm holding back in an attempt to deal only with the subject at hand).

Please splurge. Really interested in people's ideas, I'm loving what people are saying here because I so rarely encounter decent anime critiques.

But could anyone point out where to get some of this? A lot of the shows being discussed aren't for sale, where do you get them?

Tuna is bang on with YouTube. In my mini-primer in the first post you'll find links to a lot of YouTube pages so that you can sample the first episodes. When each one finishes it may even provide you a quick link so you can view the next one in the sequence.

There have been a couple of occasions when my DVD discs haven't worked and I've needed to see an episode or two online quickly before I watch the next disc. YouTube has never let me down, although you might have to search a little for the right subbed translation and the quality is often rubbish.

You're UK based, right? If so I feel your pain. There's absolutely no support for anime on TV here, the best you tend to get is Hayao Miyazaki films shown every now and then or an abysmally dubbed Naruto on some kid's channel. I think channels are wary about how to pitch it for the right demographic, as cartoons are *supposed* to be for kids, right? But - and I'm aping the channel bosses here - these ones suddenly get serious, or creepy, or uncomfortably sexual, or pretty violent. So what do we do with them?

Feverfew gave us this link to Crunchyroll, a site from which much anime can be streamed. I haven't spent a lot of time on there so I don't know what they currently have to offer, but when I did look it seemed excellent.

On the torrent side of things there are sites like Lunar Anime which will have many to choose from (you can get Gunbuster II from their downloads section). Some series will have ludicrous amount of fan support online, complete with torrents for the whole lot and new episodes usually fansubbed within hours of showing in Japan (Bleach is a good example). As ever with torrents, a quick Google search will be able to find you almost anything you might want, whether it's in single episodes or batch torrents.

Also look on Ebay or Yahoo auctions. It's very easy to find a seller who has got what you're after, but do a little digging into whatever else they may offer. I've encountered two excellent anime dealers who can get me fansubs of practically anything I want that's released within the last couple of years or so, well before it's licensed for release in Blighty. Currently on my order are Planetes, Yakitate and Ergo Proxy.

Finally, if it is released for shop purchase then it might well be harder to find online, as many places stop offering links and downloads when a title gets licensed. But then you'll probably be able to rent it from a service like this.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
08:25 / 28.01.07
Not much to add to that, but regarding availability, it's worth adding that anything you may feel like importing from the US will be pretty damn cheap at the moment due to the weak dollar (sorry to take comfort from your economic meltdown, American 'Lithers). Our core text, Gunbuster is on prerelease from Deep Discount DVD just now for the equivalent of about £23 or 33 Euros.

The UK is as poorly served as Seth says for broadcast anime, but then again the two series that reignited my passion for the medium, Evangelion and Nadesico, first came to my attention when the Sci-Fi Channel aired them, uncut and in full, a few years back. And it's surprising what you can see - flimsy cable channel Rapture TV showed Fullmetal Alchemist, Wolf's Rain and Mezzo last year (great, poor and so-so respectively) and is currently showing the wicked parody anime Excel Saga, swearing and sexual content intact, at 8pm on Sunday evenings. Nobody notices what's in cartoons!
 
 
uncle retrospective
09:47 / 28.01.07
Cheers guys.
 
 
uncle retrospective
14:00 / 28.01.07
I've just started watching this on youtube and it seems good, I just wanted to see if anyone else was waiting for Coach to start singing Temple of Love?

Is it just me. Oh yes, I see what people mean about jiggly.
I'm watching it in work and I have the mouse poised on the close button.
 
 
Seth
21:39 / 28.01.07
Uncle Retrospective: Glad to read you're enjoying it. It gets so much better, particularly from the second episode which is like a precursor to everything that will become truly great about Hideaki Anno's storytelling style (developed further in Evangelion).

If you're interested in discussing the show then there's a separate thread on it here. If anyone's interested I've just posted something that could equally belong in this thread, which is a detailed examination of Gunbuster I & II and how they sit within some of the larger discussion points I've raised in this Primer topic (specifically female representation and suspension of disbelief). I haven't posted it here because the analysis can only be done adequately with tons of spoilers that I'd really rather be avoided by people who haven't seen the shows.

I totally agree with Fat Lee that the two Gunbuster series are core texts in this medium, both far more complex than they initially seem and illuminating a great deal.
 
 
Feverfew
18:12 / 29.01.07
Feverfew gave us this link to Crunchyroll

For I am... Your Prometheus.

(Well... Mostly I'm just glad it's of use.)

I'd like to run my thoughts on Eat Man 98 Project, Heat Guy J and, maybe just maybe, Hellsing (if the latter hasn't been done already) into a coherent post, but, I'm sorry, I have not the 'fu, nor the mojo, nor the concentration right at this very moment.

I will return! Stronger!
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
21:25 / 29.01.07
Hellsing, in particular, may provide grounds for a decent discussion on the hows of telling stories about a character featured prominently in western entertainment and has been for some time now. Maybe. I wasn't very impressed with the show, and I'm sick to death of freakin' vampires.
 
 
Ness
08:13 / 30.01.07
I wanted to add my thanks for this thread. My experience of Anime had been limited to what I expect are the usual suspects: Ghost in The Shell, Akira and Studio Ghibli films. I also tried to follow some of the series SciFi showed plus some on the now defunct CNX channel but never caught them in their entirety.

I've been downloading Bleach and enjoying it greatly. I'm avoiding the discussion thread to avoid spoilers until I catch up.

Sometimes when watching anime I've felt that I'm missing some secret anime handbook in order to understand everything fully. The subbed Bleach episodes with notes for Western viewers are great as I understand the nuances much better. Theres still a few cultural things that confuse me.Since this is a primer thread would it be ok to ask for some enlightenment?

The use of formal titles - san, chan, kun etc. Having looked them up on Wikipedia I'm starting to understand them better. But I still don't quite understand the way Inoue uses kun. I understood kun to be used when addressing inferior males or males of a similar age to you eg your classmates, but Inoue uses it to address Ganju who is surely older than her. Have I misunderstood or is Inoue just guilty of inappropriate title use, much like Kenpachi's Lieutenant?

The habit of interchanging surnames and first names is also somewhat unsettling for a Westerner, when does one expect a character to use someone's surname versus their first name?
 
 
This Sunday
15:45 / 30.01.07
I know someone above was wondering why I hadn't popped up, so I decided to make an appearance. (For those curious, my agent suggested I lay off the online posting for a while.) I'm still way in awe of the description for Eva up above, which is gorgeous, except that it could use a "And a penguin" in there somewhere.

So:

The Gainax thing only really counts if the thing goes for full marks, though. Gainax Bounce (TM) plus pet/sidekick/humor-animal (PenPen or King, Posi and Nega) plus gawky geek (with glasses and loose hair and a love of machine) plus... okeh, just those three things. It's every Gainax production and several from other folks and a surefire way to success and cash. Sort of.

I am happy someone (other than me) got around to complaining about the catch-all anime thread.

I am slightly ashamed to admit that fanservice and other T&A doesn't really bother me in the slightest. I like people to look sexy, so long as it isn't detracting from pacing or the composition of a shot. Something like 'Najica' moves so well, the panties panties and more panties just kinda get deleted between my optic nerve and brainmatter. Which is a little weird. I totally love how many guys in anime wear keyhole shirts, but when was the last time you saw one on a dude in live action anything? Right.

I think, in some way, I've always believed the future (which is now) was just going to be exactly like 'Bubblegum Crisis'. Everybody would be bisexual and ass-kicking, with insane concrete-controlling robots. Otherwise, I feel cheated.

But there really is such a variety of animation, Japanese and otherwise, that it is terribly weird to put it all in one thread. I mean, how much can be said to apply to both 'Riding Bean' and 'Mori no Denetsu'? When I'm talking about 'Millenial Actress' I may not necessarily want to talk about 'Fushigi Yugi' or 'Those Who Hunt Elves', y'know? Any more than a conversation about 'Casablanca' necessitates a mid-thread blurb about 'Space Truckers' or 'Vertigo' no matter how cool any of those - and they all are - might be.
 
 
Seth
16:44 / 30.01.07
The use of formal titles - san, chan, kun etc. Having looked them up on Wikipedia I'm starting to understand them better.

Nice one, thank you. This is a hugely important area for understanding what you're seeing and hearing, and is crucial to understanding how characters relate to each other. I've been thinking that we need a general glossary of terms, and this is as good a place to start as any.

Firstly, here's the above mentioned Wikipedia link on the subject, and here's another good page on the subject. I've copied this list of arguably the most important ones from here (hope they don't mind):

-san This is the most important honorific to remember as it is an all-purpose suffix that can be used to be polite to just about anyone. It is approximately the English equivalent of titles such as Mr, Mrs, or Miss, although if you’ve ever watched Slayers and seen Lina-san translated as “Miss Lina” then you’ll know that it’s not quite the same.

-kun The –kun suffix is used mostly with boys or young men, and expresses more familiarity than the politer -san suffix.

-chan This suffix expresses endearment towards someone or something that is cute and small or young, such as children, pets and young girls. A perfect example is in Azumanga Daioh, in which Chiyo is called Chiyo-chan. In Rurouni Kenshin, Yahiko hates being called Yahiko-chan for this very reason. He prefers to be called Yahiko-kun as it sounds more masculine.

-sensei This is the honorific given to teachers, whether in the classroom, dojo or other profession. It is also used for doctors, and has the literal meaning of “one who has gone before”.

But I still don't quite understand the way Inoue uses kun. I understood kun to be used when addressing inferior males or males of a similar age to you eg your classmates, but Inoue uses it to address Ganju who is surely older than her. Have I misunderstood or is Inoue just guilty of inappropriate title use, much like Kenpachi's Lieutenant?

Rather than copy this into the Bleach thread for discussion it's worth talking about here as an example of how these things act as revealing for characters and their relationships to each other.

You're spot on with your interpretation. When Inoue calls Ganju 'Ganju-kun' it's because, well, no one has any real respect for Ganju, do they? He's ugly and strangely dressed and rides a wild boar and most of his (very) limited abilities come from being able to use fireworks. He's powerless to the whim of his older sister. There's only really one instance that I can think of in which his emotional reactions as displayed in the show aren't treated as a joke (don't want to ruin the moment for you if you haven't seen that far). He's just good old Gunju-kun.

Likewise with Zaraki Kenpachi and Yachiru Kusajishi. The fact that she is able to call the psychopathic and possibly insane Kenpachi 'Ken-chan' ('Kenny' in some translations) is vaguely flabbergasting. Everyone else is terrified of him and seem to do their best to avoid mentioning him at all. He's an almost total aberration amongst the Shinigami captains. Yachiru, however, views him as cute and loveable. She in turn has Kenpachi's absolute respect, and while he banters with her he never seriously corrects her on this. Indeed, she is named after the only person that Kenpachi has ever loved.

The habit of interchanging surnames and first names is also somewhat unsettling for a Westerner, when does one expect a character to use someone's surname versus their first name?

I'm pretty sure it's similar to how we do it in English. So at school some teachers would only be referred to by their surnames, some their first names. Some teachers would only call me Cooke, others Seth. To confuse things, there were some classmates who would call me Cooke rather than Seth, and these instances weren't always bound up with the familiar/formal distinction. So I'm pretty sure this would have to be interpreted on a case-by-case basis, as I'm fairly sure that within the same character relationship they'll swap based on circumstances. Again noting the similarities there are many people I know who do this too, referring to other people in a jokingly formal manner as Mr or Mrs X when they're trying to put on a pretend air of being strict.

If I'm off base there then someone please correct me.

I am happy someone (other than me) got around to complaining about the catch-all anime thread.

But there really is such a variety of animation, Japanese and otherwise, that it is terribly weird to put it all in one thread.


Absolutely. I'm trying to advocate a one-thread-per-series approach, with this thread being useful as both an introduction to anime and for theory bitching. If there's something specific to debate then maybe a series deserves its own thread, if it's generalities then they can go here. Incidentally, Randy Dupre has a perfectly valid use for the old anime thread for quick questions on what we might think of a series or movie that doesn't have its own thread and which people might not think worthy of a full thread to discuss. But essentially, if you're a fan of something in particular and want to talk about it then start a thread, and if you feel it's deserving of a recommendation in this primer then write up a short paragraph with links and places those who are interested can sample it.
 
 
Seth
17:00 / 30.01.07
For glossaries of common anime terms and Japanese words, look here, here, here, here, here and here.

Don't know if that's helpful or not, it seemed a bit excessive to cut and paste out into this thread.
 
 
This Sunday
18:11 / 30.01.07
I am going to abuse this thread but mentioning my astonishment that no one ever posted anything about Utena on Barbelith, but me. And I did it in every anime thread here, plus its own thread, that also nobody ever replied to. Does no one else here love it, like it... or has just nobody here bothered to watch it at all? Pretty people! Swords! Nice clothes! Swords! Fairytale horror glossy love love love! Cows and kangaroos and egg-born monkey-mice with the necktie of godsatan!
 
 
Seth
18:28 / 02.02.07
Not seen it myself, but to primify that post the series is called Revolutionary Girl Utena, it's reviewed here and can be sampled here. I have a shedload to watch right now but would like to get around to it, an intention that would be facilitated greatly should Daytripper rip it all to DVD and send it to me.
 
  

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