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Science Love-In

 
  

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Lurid Archive
01:07 / 22.03.02
YNH3: No, you weren't coming across as anti-science at all.

monkey: a minor point.

Your correct observations about military funding being bureaucratic scams seems to concede that this is at the root of science funding. I don't think that this is what you intended, since you would be making a pedantic point rather than a rejection of some strong claims.

I could offer some anecdotal evidence on the independence of the majority of scientific research and the large degree of autonomy that many scientists have. I could describe the idealistic nature of many scientists both in practice and in decision making processes that tend to elevate a quest for knowledge above political concerns. But you could, and perhaps should, discount that as largely irrelevant. I'm also stating this a bit too strongly and I definitely accept that there are many abuses committed by sciencists.

More importantly I think that there could be good reasons for supposing that an ideologically driven scientific endeavour could be hobbled by the very bias that guides it. This is perhaps a reflection of my own position as an atheist/materialist in that I do not think that the universe cares. So any attempt to reveal it via a political filter will be bound to be contradicted by observation.


maybe.
 
 
grant
14:01 / 22.03.02
quote:Originally posted by YNH3:
Um, grant? Tom? I'll edit this for use in the 'zine if you like...



Sounds *great* to me!
 
 
Thjatsi
03:05 / 01.04.02
Duck, I would say that mutualism can also be quite ruthless. Most biological organisms don't help each other out unless it gives them some sort of advantage. As far as altruism goes, I would agree with Dawkins that most of it can be explained as the result of selfish genes.

The main thesis of the "Lucifer Principle" is that evil is the product of evolution. Richard Metzger has a nice article on the author here:
http://www.disinfo.com/pages/article/id672/pg1/
 
 
captain piss
20:42 / 01.04.02
The notion of it being possible to put science in the service of ideology - and this being something that happens frequently - is discussed quite heavily in Rupert Sheldrake’s book ‘Seven Experiments that could change the world’, which I’ve just been reading.
If I could just quote a couple of bits from it- Sheldrake argues that science presents the ‘illusion of objectivity’ and one of the principal means by which this is achieved is the style in which scientific reports are written. The use of the passive voice
He quotes a section from Medawar:

‘The section called ‘results’ consists of a stream of factual information in which it is considered extremely bad form to discuss the significance of the results you are getting. You have to pretend that the mind is, so to speak, a virgin receptacle, an empty vessel, for information that floods in from the external world for no reason which you yourself have revealed. You reserve all appraisal of the scientific evidence until the ‘discussion’ section, and in the discussion you adopt the ludicrous pretence of asking yourself if the information you have collected actually means anything.’

He also discusses the frequent tendency to put the theory/cart before the data/horse that has been observed with some of science’s most signifificant figures. Newton’s biographer Richard Westfall has noted that he adjusted his calculations on the velocity of sound and the precession of the equinoxes, and altered the correlation of a variable in his theory of gravitation to give a seeming accuracy of better than 1 part in 1000.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:52 / 07.04.02
I agree that some of the big figures in the history of science have indeed fudged data to make it fit a pet theory. But that's not really a criticism of scientific method, is it? The falsification of results by Newton was wrong because it was unscientific.

Then there's the quote from Mediawar:

"The section called ‘results’ consists of a stream of factual information in which it is considered extremely bad form to discuss the significance of the results you are getting. You have to pretend that the mind is, so to speak, a virgin receptacle, an empty vessel, for information that floods in from the external world for no reason which you yourself have revealed. You reserve all appraisal of the scientific evidence until the ‘discussion’ section, and in the discussion you adopt the ludicrous pretence of asking yourself if the information you have collected actually means anything."

Again, this is all true, but there are reasons that scientific reports are written up like that. It's good to present experimental data separately from the conclusions that you draw from it because a) this helps to foster a more objective mindset, and b) it makes it easier for the guys who'll come along and re-interpret your findings. What is wrong with this? How should scientists write reports instead? "After the first injection, it was observed that the guinea-pig became lethargic and unco-ordinated. Actually it was sort of funny watching him stagger around like that. Not as funny as the look on that dickwad Professor Thwaite's face when he reads this though! 'No significant motor skill impairment', my ARSE!"

Sure, complete and total objectivity is impossible. The way a sample is chosen, the way an experiment is designed, the way data is interpreted: all these could in theory be affected by the subjective views of the researcher. However, it is wrong to suggest that because scientific reseach could be coloured by subjectivity that we must dismiss science and rationality out of hand.
 
 
captain piss
13:48 / 09.04.02
What MC said:
"I agree that some of the big figures in the history of science have indeed fudged data to make it fit a pet theory. But that's not really a criticism of scientific method, is it? The falsification of results by Newton was wrong because it was unscientific."

Not so much a criticism of doing experiments, it’s more that the manner in which these experiments are documented and reported perpetuates the myth that the process is a lot more objective than it actually is.
Rather than instances like that of Newton being isolated aberrations, by unhinged or unethical individuals, Sheldrake argues that the very process is a kind of make-believe.

Again, from MC's post:
"… there are reasons that scientific reports are written up like that. It's good to present experimental data separately from the conclusions that you draw from it because a) this helps to foster a more objective mindset, and b) it makes it easier for the guys who'll come along and re-interpret your findings. What is wrong with this? How should scientists write reports instead?"

The point being made is that this style of presentation gives the impression that the conclusions stem from the experimental data when it tends more often to be the other way round - the hypothesis that the experiments were designed to test generally comes first.
In recent years there has been more conscious recognition of this process, he says, with an increasing tendency for hypotheses to be mentioned in the introduction to papers, but the same conventions of using the passive voice and passionless prose remain.
What goes on in laboratories is a lot more pragmatic than this style of reporting suggests. For instance, the way in which competitors in a given research field will try lots of different approaches - to creating cold fusion or whatever – but will likely switch to the one that works best. Careers and professional reputations are at stake, and people are at pains to present an idealised image of themselves and the methods they use.
Sheldrake’s plea is for a reporting method free from these conventions, which more accurately documents the thought processes that go towards making scientific discoveries.
He also quotes from a book by Broad & Wade on fraud and deceit in science:
“If scientists were allowed to express themselves naturally in describing their experiments and theories, the myth of a single, universal scientific method would probably vanish instantly.”

I’m inclined to agree with these arguments. Perhaps if scientific progress was decoupled slightly more from the forces of ego, vanity and deception (including self-deception), the boundaries of discovery would unfurl a bit more rapidly.
 
  

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