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Science Love-In

 
  

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Lurid Archive
16:07 / 10.03.02
I've noticed a tendency amongst the more radical, left wing, anarchical element, both here and with my friends, a certain anti science stance. The feeling seems to be that science equates with authority and hence must be a bad thing.

Just to be straight from the outset, I am not criticising the politics involved. Rather, I'm against the mind set that concedes science to the other side. I think that there is a misconception of science and scientific reasoning as being somehow narrow minded, ultra conservative and for lots of people frankly incomprehensible. I'll own up here; I am a pure mathematician and my view of science is completely different.

In its broadest sense, science is concerned with making rational deductions about the world that are founded on verifiable facts. The scientists I've known, rather than being narrow minded, are the most open to new ideas. They approach these ideas in a robust way - a good scientist will take nothing as given and demand that every assertion be justified.

As a left winger, I think that this sort of attitude is empowering. How do you cut through propoganda and lies unless you insist on facts that stand up to close inspection. I think that left wing ideas are right because of the evidence, not in spite of it.
(A note on die hard conspiracy theorists - disbelieving everything you hear is just as bad as believing everything.)

Just so this isn't all too abstract, let me give you an example of a brilliant scientist - Noam Chomsky. I'm sure that everyone is aware of this, but it bears repeating; Noam Chomsky approaches politics as a scientist. The way he argues is very simple. He lists facts, commenting on their reliability and proceeds to present really quite elementary arguments. In fact, when Chomsky talks about politics, each step of his argument is so clear cut that those disagreeing with him are left with no tenable position. They retreat into personal attacks.

But the issue that seems to really turn people off science is a fear that they won't understand it. In my opinion, there are lots of reasons for this. One is the famous culture split that means intelligent people, with a humanities background, who are otherwise very sensible will brag about their ignorance. This is to do with science and scientists being seen as geeky. I don't think I really need to explain why that is so inadequate. Poor teaching and weak science reporting in the media are other factors.

What all this leads to is a situation where unscrupulous organisations and individuals can frankly lie about scientific facts and people are unwilling to confront that lie. So when the tobacco industry tells people that cigarettes are "safe", we all know they are talking shit. If we don't confront them on their facts, it becomes a matter of opinion and we make their position that much stronger.
 
 
Jackie Susann
19:51 / 10.03.02
Really, I think nonscientists generally are suspicious of scientists, not just lefties, and for pretty obvious reasons. Scientists are specialists and it's impossible for most people to understand what they do. Their activities are frequently decided by big money and/or government interests. They've invented things like nuclear and chemical weapons. Science is also routinely used to argue that certain social arrangements are 'natural', (i.e., black people have lower iqs, gay men have smaller hypothalamuses, etc.) based on hell-dodgy evidence and experiments which would never have been conducted if the researchers didn't have borderline insane political views.

This isn't an argument against scientific method, it's just what happens when scientific method is implemented by a narrow caste of specialists in a capitalist society.
 
 
w1rebaby
20:00 / 10.03.02
While it might not help grasp the finer details of science, I think there'd be a lot less public distrust if people actually got a decent scientific education. It would help them distinguish obvious bollocks (e.g. creationism) from potentially reasonable theories.

I'd say, if you can't read New Scientist and understand at least the basis of everything in it, you've been hard done by at school. (Or you just weren't paying attention.)
 
 
Ria
20:32 / 10.03.02
Lurid, I think I have noticed the same.

at base scientific inquiry always seems to have the potential to shatter the worldview cultivated by religous and politcal institutions whether right or left-wing.

wanting to freeze culture in time to whenever a great icon like Emma Goldman last walked the earth.
 
 
Tom Coates
20:55 / 10.03.02
I suspect that a fair number of the people on the board have had a liberal-arts education of some kind, and are probably familiar with science-destabilising commentaries and criticisms - which is frankly all to the good, considering how few grand narratives convincingly savage science.

Science is an interesting word - scientists have believed some appalling things in the past and managed to justify them by reference to things that everyone considered 'good science' , moral issues and 'facts' are not easily divorceable from one another - and the idea of a pure science outside perhaps mathematics that isn't informed by cultural attitudes, prejudices and or western / male / anthropocentric etc. discourses is possibly something to aim for, but certainly has never been - nor in my opinion WILL ever be achieved.

I'm probably coming across as quite anti-science, but actually I'm not - if anything I think that a sensitivity to the fact that science is NOT a pure discipline that operates according to strict and extra-human principles makes science BETTER, allows it to be more intelligently and sensitively applied. I'm reminded of the thread where we talked about the medicalisation of social disorder - that's one very clear place where science is being used - or could be seen to be being used - to support and prop up ideology for example...

Anyway - I'm just going to end with a kind of tacit qualitication of this statement:

quote:science is concerned with making rational deductions about the world that are founded on verifiable facts.

And to argue instead that science is ever-refining (or occasionally leaping) towards new models of the world that have yet to be disproven. The standard approach is that a hypothesis is made that X will happen when Y is done - and the theory holds true as long as it doesn't contradict any other theories, or until it is demonstrated that there are circumstances where X will NOT happen when Y is done. It's the old adage (except in mathematics - which is often beautiful tautologies) that you cannot PROVE a scientific hypothesis, only DISPROVE it, and that therefore the mark of a scientific discipline is that its theories are of such a kind that COULD be demonstrated to be untrue.
 
 
Thjatsi
01:35 / 11.03.02
I think this problem stems from several issues:

1) As far as academia is concerned, there is a bit of jealousy regarding funding. Cancer research gets about a billion dollars a year, and while other fields of science generally aren't as well funded, they get a substantially larger amount of money than people in fields like Philosophy, History, and English. In addition, as someone who has recently applied to graduate schools in the sciences, I've been told that if someone is interested in having me at their institution, all my fees will be paid for. If I was trying to get a Ph.D. in Philosophy, I know that this sure as hell wouldn't be the case. People in the humanities notice things like this. As a result, some of the angrier ones are more likely to spend time writing about how science is destroying our humanity, our society, is anti-woman, and so on.

2) Science is hard to understand. As a result, some people find it easier to be unilaterally critical of science than to take the time to actually learn anything about it.

3) News organizations frequently misreport scientific information and cover science of questionable validity. This often gives the impression that people in this discipline have no idea what they're doing.

4) At the same time, science has caused a lot of problems. Physics has given humans the ability to destroy the world, and I'll be surprised if Biochemistry doesn't give humanity the same power during the next twenty years. This is a legitimate criticism of science.
 
 
Lurid Archive
07:35 / 11.03.02
There are good posts above. Let me respond to some of them.

The only point I want to take major issue with is by Dead Pirate Crunchy:
quote: Scientists are specialists and it's impossible for most people to understand what they do.

I think that this attitude is precisely the one I want to argue with and a large reason for me starting this thread. It is true that the very fine detail of science can be hard to understand. But this applies to lots of disciplines, and this difficulty of science is there for all of us - scientists included. For example, a biologist will have problems understanding the fine detail of research physics and vice versa.

I believe that anyone with a reasonable level of intelligence - anyone who posts on this board, yes that means YOU - is able to grasp the important points about a scientific theory. Anyone who says different is a liar who wants to disempower you. For instance, I wouldn't accept the statement that politics is too hard to understand with the obvious implication that the only people left to make political decisions are some elite class. If you think of how complicated politics is, and how much effort one needs to spend to gain a good understanding of it I think you'll agree that this is a good example.

The same point is true of science. If we accept what DPC says (he is not alone in this sentiment) then we abdicate responsibility for scientific decisions to those in the know. Given the importance, danger and misuse of science this should be unthinkable to anyone with firm political beliefs.

As to the idea that science is influenced by amoral corporations, I'd say that this is true but not the whole picture. Scientists are amongst the most ethical people I know, though there are exceptions. Corporations try to influence all aspects of our lives, from fine art to education. When they do this with science, we should confront them on scientific grounds. As I said before, I don't believe that science which supports rascism, homophobia or sexism is good science. I could be wrong, but I strongly doubt it. The best way to counter these politically motivated abusers of science is to confront them on those scientific terms, not to decry all of science.

As for "science-destabilising commentaries and criticisms", I would cautiously agree that these are good. However, in my experience such criticisms often have a heavily anti science and anti rational basis and they also tend toward extreme relativism. I disagree with these positions on principle and would point out that they are used extensively by holocaust deniers and creationists, for example.

Tom's point about falsifiability is absolutely right, I just wanted to emphasise the rational nature of good science debate.

As an aside: There is some disagreement amongst mathematicians, but I believe that (pure) maths is not a science and hence that I am not a scientist. Thats why lots of general statements about science specifically exclude maths - its all tautology.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:10 / 11.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Lurid Archive:
I believe that anyone with a reasonable level of intelligence - anyone who posts on this board, yes that means YOU - is able to grasp the important points about a scientific theory.


Indeed. For example, I'm a person of average intelligence (not daft but not a genius either), and I was reading and understanding the New Scientist from the age of 10. I firmly belive that most if not all scientific concepts lie within the mental reach of anyone reading this.

Another point I'd like to make is that many of the problem associated with science are actually down to the misapplication of technology. For example, I hear a lot of people complaining about "these arrogant scientists" in relation to GM crops. It seems to me that the scientific community is just as wary of this new technology as the average person, if not more so, and the arrogance comes from companies like Monsanto who'll take all manner of risks to ensure a profit.

The tools of scientific thought are powerful ones. If we abandon them, we hand a major advantage to bodies and individuals whose concerns are inimical to our own.

[ 11-03-2002: Message edited by: Mordant C@rnival ]
 
 
Jackie Susann
10:28 / 11.03.02
quote: If we accept what DPC says (he is not alone in this sentiment) then we abdicate responsibility for scientific decisions to those in the know.

Um, I still think this is a pretty accurate description of the state of things. I'm not saying science is inherently incomprehensible, or any more difficult than any other specialised field. But the way things are set up, people are basically forced to abdicate decisions to those 'in the know' about important issues. Genetically modified food, for example - I don't have the time or the expertise to wade through a tenth of the research on the subject, and essentially I have to trust scientists to filter the 'important' information down to me. This seems, to me, to be a pretty fucking good reason to be skeptical about science - not because it's bad, but because if you don't ask questions you're never going to know what's going on.

Please be aware that I am having an unrelated cranky moment and this post may be unreasonably aggressive; sorry about that.
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:37 / 11.03.02
DPC: I don't think you are being aggressive. I was going to apologise for the same thing myself.


Having said that, I do disagree with your last post. Lets take an example from another area. Now I like to think that I know a little bit about the European Union (EU), though I am no expert. In order to really know about it you might claim that I should read all the treaties signed and all or most domestic laws passed to ratify them. Additionally, I might want a working knowledge of European law and I should read transcripts of sessions of the european parliament. You can see where I'm going?

I can get a working knowledge - good enough to have an educated opinion about european matters - by doing some general reading on the topic. Now, its true that there is much conflicting material written by journalists for idealogical reasons, but if I read widely I can get a good overall impression of the main issues and how they might relate to me. I don't think the way to respond to the difficulties is to say, as many do, that politics is a lot of shit and its not worth the bother because you can't do anything anyway.

Its the same with science - GM is a good example. Of course you can't read all the research about it, and of course there is disinformation put about by companies like Monsanto. There is however, a lot of information out there by people doing research. Its not conclusive (conlusively inconclusive?) but you can get an idea of the issues involved.
 
 
Lionheart
16:13 / 11.03.02
There was a great article in, I believe, Science News a few years back which has relation to this topic. It was about how a lot of theories on animal behaviour and ecology had to be revised because the conclusions drawn from the data was made by a male-dominated community which only saw things as aggressive and violent. Basically it dealt with the non-scientific part of science which is drawing conclusions from the facts. That's the biggest problem with modern science. Who draws the conclusions? One must realize that in the U.S., most scientific studies are funded by the military complex. By the Pentagon, and the D.O.D. This really affects the direction of science in the U.S. I'm running out of things to say so I'm finishing this post with this sentence.
 
 
Jackie Susann
20:45 / 11.03.02
quote: I can get a working knowledge - good enough to have an educated opinion about european matters - by doing some general reading on the topic. Now, its true that there is much conflicting material written by journalists for idealogical reasons, but if I read widely I can get a good overall impression of the main issues and how they might relate to me.

by, like, being skeptical you mean? this is exactly what i'm trying to say - you don't just accept what specialists tell you, you think about their interests and read widely.

(edited for weird formatting mistake)

[ 11-03-2002: Message edited by: Dread Pirate Crunchy ]
 
 
Lurid Archive
22:09 / 11.03.02
OK, DPC. I thought that you were making a different point that I've often heard. Namely, that we should be sceptical about science per se and use the confusion about to dismiss it. I thought you meant sceptical in the way that creationists use the world. Silly me, I should have known better.
 
 
Thjatsi
01:26 / 12.03.02
quote:It was about how a lot of theories on animal behaviour and ecology had to be revised because the conclusions drawn from the data was made by a male-dominated community which only saw things as aggressive and violent.

Any chance of a citation or link?

quote:One must realize that in the U.S., most scientific studies are funded by the military complex. By the Pentagon, and the D.O.D.

I have to disagree with you. Here is a chart, taken from the American Mathamatical Society's web page:



As you can see, over the last few years, the vast majority of funding has come from the department of Health and Human Services. The statistics for applied research almost certainly differ. However, I believe you were insinuating that the Department of Defense is somehow putting funding pressure on science on the level of basic research. The chart above clearly shows that even if the military wanted to, for some bizzare reason, to alter the findings of scientific research, they would not possess the resources to do so.

[ 12-03-2002: Message edited by: Thiazi ]
 
 
Lionheart
19:19 / 12.03.02
I was gonna say that i'm very sceptical about that chart. Why? Because, according to that chart, NASA beat out the Department of Defense in amount of scientific funding almost every single year! That's impossible considering the budgets of both of these agencies.

But then I saw the title of the chart.

"Federal Obligations For Basic Research" and I started to wonder, What does "basic research" mean? And what do they mean by federal obligations?

Oh, and i'll provide citations after I find a science news index to look through. The library that has it is closed today but I'll try tomorow.

Oh and I never said that the military alters the results of scientific research. I was saying that the nature of the research automatically produces bad results. I mean, the hydrogen bomb wasn't made for any peaceful purpose. And the crowd control techniques using radio frequency research can't lead to anything good in the hands of the military.
 
 
captain piss
09:24 / 13.03.02
The point about the funding bodies influencing the conclusions that are drawn from research is a subtle one- I’m not so sure they do.
There’s certainly a lot of room for interpretation with most scientific experiments (anyone who has performed scientific experiments within some formal, graded program will probably have written things in the margins of their lab book like ‘good results- use these ones’ – so scientific progress has been guided by value judgements. But…I don’t know- is it not the scientists themselves who’re drawing the conclusions rather than the sinister NASA or DARPA suits funding the research?
But the point still stands that most research is funded by bodies with obvious commercial or military aims - a by-product of this is that a lot of stuff that doesn’t seem commercially fruitful in the immediate term, but which might benefit mankind, is funded minimally.

Maybe science doesn’t seem to be perceived as the force for personal liberation or enlightenment that Lurid Archive and others see it as perhaps because it’s mainly used to achieve fairly mundane, commercially-applicable goals.
You don’t see many research funds being granted to study time travel or consciousness. Things like astronomy and big explosions are probably what got lots of todays scientists into it in the first place- they didn’t realise they would end up trying to make it cheaper to manufacture a particular brand of shoes.
< spot the bitterness of the ex-science student now doing something totally different >

[ 13-03-2002: Message edited by: Meme Buggerer ]
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:24 / 13.03.02
So I reckon that for most people, science is pretty alien and I've been trying to think of an analogy that works - at least to my mind.

In a certain sense, scientists are like journalists. They collect facts and put an interpretation on them and then present that composite to their audience. Now you could (and probably should) argue that most journalists work for media which is owned by large corporations which have certain political goals. However, on the whole I'd say that journalists are ethical and the facts that they present are not outright lies, though their interpretation might be skewed. Just as Meme Buggerer says, its not clear that Murdoch has a direct influence on everything that News Corp punts out, though there is cause for concern.

In fact, on reflection this is probably not that good an analogy. Journalists are subject to more manipulation than scientists. (ducks for cover)

Thing is, people don't on the whole easily dismiss news articles as factually incorrect.

As for scientific research being mostly funded by companies with military or commercial aims. hmm, not sure. Sounds likely. But isn't that sort of research very expensive but tightly focused? Ie, a large part of the funding cake, but a small part of the scientific knowledge cake? Not sure. Anyone got an opinion or even better, stats?
 
 
the Fool
09:24 / 13.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Lurid Archive:

In a certain sense, scientists are like journalists. They collect facts and put an interpretation on them and then present that composite to their audience.


I think this is a rather good analogy. Collect facts, build theory of why facts happened the way they did, then tell people. All in the context of 'we currently believe the world works this way'.

If you work for someone who has a particular world view, isn't that going to colour how you interpret 'facts', even choosing which 'facts' you look at and which you ignore.

The DEA hires scientists to find more reasons as to why drugs are bad. These scientists are not likely to produce a report saying "oh, the're not really that bad." are they? If they did, I'm sure the report would probably be burried, and the
scientists responsible fired.

A cigarette company could hire scientist to dispprove the link between smoking and cancer.

Science has been used by the nazis to uphold racial theory.

Scientists can be instrumental in the fabrication truth, purely because people don't question and people are not skeptical of 'science'.

If we looked at scientists like journalists maybe we would enquire more into motives for research and the quality of their findings more...
 
 
Thjatsi
09:24 / 13.03.02
quote:Oh and I never said that the military alters the results of scientific research. I was saying that the nature of the research automatically produces bad results.

You will have to excuse me then. The fact that you followed the sentence:
quote:Who draws the conclusions?

with:
quote:One must realize that in the U.S., most scientific studies are funded by the military complex.

led me to believe that this is what you were stating.

However, I do have to take issue with your assertion that military research automatically equals bad results. For example, I think USAMRIID is a rather positive organization.

quote:What does "basic research" mean?

The difference between basic and applied research is one of the fundamental concepts in discipline of science. To put this as concisely as possible, basic research involves learning about the universe, while applied research involves the application of what you have learned. For example, basic research would be the sequencing of the human genome, while applied research would be the curing of a genetic disorder based on that research.

However, since you are apparently not stating that the military is trying to alter basic research, this particular chart isn't very helpful. This is why I said:

quote:The statistics for applied research almost certainly differ.

As I've already stated, I'm not too thrilled with some of the outcomes of applied military research. However, I place the blame here with human nature rather than with science.

quote:And what do they mean by federal obligations?

I would assume they're using it to mean contributions, however it is a bit of a moot point now, unless someone want's to say that the military is trying to influence the outcome of research.

quote:...anyone who has performed scientific experiments within some formal, graded program will probably have written things in the margins of their lab book like ‘good results- use these ones'...
In the real world, this is the sort of thing that ends people's careers forever. In addition, it's rather easy to get caught doing this. So, I seriously doubt that all but a very small minority of scientists are participating in this behavior.

quote:...a by-product of this is that a lot of stuff that doesn’t seem commercially fruitful in the immediate term, but which might benefit mankind, is funded minimally.

Like what? Do you mean the millions of dollars that have been spent over the past three decades on fusion research, which probably won't be viable for at least another decade or two, if ever? Or do you mean the five million dollars spent each year on malaria, a disease that doesn't even impact the vast majority of U.S. citizens.

quote:Maybe science doesn’t seem to be perceived as the force for personal liberation or enlightenment that Lurid Archive and others see it as perhaps because it’s mainly used to achieve fairly mundane, commercially-applicable goals.

Actually, I don't see science as a force for personal liberation or enlightenment. I see it as a tool to improve my life, and the lives of other people around me. Sometimes it doesn't work out that way. However, I'm very pleased with the results so far, as a whole.

quote:The DEA hires scientists to find more reasons as to why drugs are bad. These scientists are not likely to produce a report saying "oh, the're not really that bad." are they? If they did, I'm sure the report would probably be burried, and the
scientists responsible fired.


People at the World Health Organization actually attempted what you are describing. However, the scientists in question not only returned with results that the WHO didn't want to see, but they leaked the study to the press after the organization attempted to suppress them. Perhaps science isn't as easy to manipulate as some people think it is.

quote:A cigarette company could hire scientist to dispprove the link between smoking and cancer.

Of course, the scientist would have to fabricate data to do so in the vast majority of cases, which would ruin said scientist's career and reputation.

quote:Science has been used by the nazis to uphold racial theory.

That science was easily disproven, just like the Soviet's attempt to use pre-darwin evolutionary theory to prove that communism was the natural order of things was easily disproven. However, this completely fucked over the Soviet genetics program for the next few decades, due to the fact that any dissent from within the country was suppressed at gunpoint.

[ 13-03-2002: Message edited by: Thiazi ]
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:01 / 14.03.02
If I can stretch the journalists are scientists analogy a bit further...

We seem to agree that we would all be sceptical of both scientific pronouncements and new reporting.

Is that level of scepticism comparable? Do you distrust the actual factual evidence presented by scientists? Equally, do you doubt that actual factual content of news reports?

I'm trying to make a dstinction here between the factual content of a piece of information and the interpretation that it comes with.
 
 
Fist Fun
19:36 / 15.03.02
Just noticed this thread.

quote:Their activities are frequently decided by big money and/or government interests. They've invented things like nuclear and chemical weapons. Science is also routinely used to argue that certain social arrangements are 'natural', (i.e., black people have lower iqs, gay men have smaller hypothalamuses, etc.) based on hell-dodgy evidence and experiments which would never have been conducted if the researchers didn't have borderline insane political views.

I think everyone would agree that science should be neutral not influenced by money or government interests. Equally it shouldn't be influenced by political opinions no matter how right we feel they are. For instance research into IQ levels shouldn't be influenced by politics either way.
 
 
Ierne
10:04 / 17.03.02
I think everyone would agree that science should be neutral not influenced by money or government interests. Equally it shouldn't be influenced by political opinions no matter how right we feel they are. - Buk

Ideally, yes. But someone has to finance the research, pay for the equipment, house & feed the scientists, etc. So while a group of scientists may indeed be working and reporting their findings in a neutral manner, how those findings are promoted is up to whoever's providing the grant, no?

I think that there is a misconception of science and scientific reasoning as being somehow narrow minded, ultra conservative and for lots of people frankly incomprehensible. – Lurid Archive

Attitudes like this also come into play in dealing with the medical field – some people don't trust doctors for many of the same reasons they don't trust scientists. Of course there's another level of insecurity dealing with health insurance/HMOs and finance, but for the most part it's a fear that this person has knowledge about one's physical body that one does not have, and their diagnosis must be taken on the trust that they know what they're doing and have no ulterior motive in diagnosing one.

[ 17-03-2002: Message edited by: Ierne ]
 
 
Thjatsi
01:26 / 18.03.02
What do you mean when you say:

quote:...how those fundings are promoted...
 
 
Ierne
12:33 / 18.03.02
Thiazi / Mormael : A certain scientific study can come to a certain conclusion, but how that conclusion gets filtered to the rest of the world depends – I would suppose – on the organization(s) providing the finance to support the study, and their motives for providing that finance.

That's what I meant by "...how those findings are promoted..." But I could be wrong here, and would apreciate feedback from more scientifically-experienced people as to whether or not this is actually the case.
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:29 / 18.03.02
From this web page

quote: In December 1997 a long-awaited report by the World Health Organisation (WHO) of the United Nations about marijuana came out, the first in 15 years. A scandal erupted when the British science magazine "New Scientist" in its February 1998 issue exposed the suppression of a chapter in the document.
In the censored chapter the authors, three leading addiction researchers, compare the dangers of marijuana, as documented by science, against those of the legal drugs alcohol and nicotine and illegal opiates. In dry, factual language they point out that where risks exist these are actually more serious for these two legal drugs.


This incident illustrates pretty exactly my feelings on the whole science funding issue. On the whole, the distortion and suppression of fact is taken at a political level. Taken by people who are very similar to the propoganda merchants we are all familiar with.

Now I don't want to make any simplistic assumptions about science being beyond corruption, but I think it is no accident that New Scientist broke this story. It is a magazine that believes knowledge should inform political opinion, not the other way round. Most scientists disapprove of drugs, but they don't like facts being distorted to suit political ends.

Of course there have been other studies which came to the opposite conclusion - via extremely flawed methodology in my view - so where does that leave you?

Same place you are with everything. You need to be aware and sceptical, but also acknowledge that scientists are usually honest people trying to unearth facts. And always watch the politics.
 
 
Thjatsi
08:50 / 19.03.02
Ierne, this will be true for a few government reports, as the example with the World Health Organization shows. In addition, it can be a factor for a few scientists who are working in companies, though the fact of the matter is that it rarely benefits anyone to tamper with research. However, a good portion of research, as I understand it, is grant based. This means you apply for a government or private grant and get paid to work on your project. So the organization paying is doing this in advance, and doesn't really have the opportunity to place financial pressures on the scientist.
 
 
Polly Trotsky
16:39 / 19.03.02
Sure, researchers apply for a grant: the grant writer types up a proposal, the company or government body reviwes said proposal and approves or rejects the grant; in some cases the body may offer a grant for similar but different research. In other cases, especially in academic contexts, private individuals or organizations will simply give money to a department for unspecific research.

None of this is apolitical. Surely no one believes it is? In the first case, the grant often comes with exclusive use clauses, patent rights, or is simply contract work. In the second, the individual or body knows who the money is funding, and thus what it's likely to get used for.

Not to specifically derail the thread, but we've had similar discussions abouyt specific research, funded by specific institutions, that unsuprisingly came to predictable conclusions. The last one I remember involved the head of British research team whose occupation was sexing babies born with "abnormal" genetalia. The research involved obtaining support for such decisions. The same references to racial science came up, and were promptly ignored. whatever science should do, there's no guarantee it does it...
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:49 / 20.03.02
YNH3: Nah, its not really off topic, but a couple of points about what you say.

Now Thiazi / Mormael made a good point about the difference between basic and applied research. There probably is a strong case for saying that applied research is funded, to a large degree, for selfish motives. Political is not quite right, since a lot of that research is about making money at the end of the day.

Its not clear to me at all that basic research is politically driven. Of course, governments have to decide how much to allocate for different broad areas of research and grant bodies on specifics of who gets the money. But someone needs to make those choices and its a bit cynical to dismiss any decision as politically motivated.
 
 
Polly Trotsky
15:17 / 20.03.02
I'm not dismissing anything, really. There's nothing cynical about asserting that any act/decision/whatever is political; it's just a stance some of us have chosen to take. You mention in yr last post on p1 that we should "watch the politics."

I'm not convinced the distinction between basic research (often translating in to hard cash for patent licensing) and applied makes any difference in that context. Any review board is going to have a crystal clear picture of who they're granting money to.

But, back on track... It seems the reasons for (a perception of) mistrusting science and scientists are gut-level type stuff based on the lack of specialized knowledge; so sayeth page 1.

One of the things that doen't help this any is the type of discussion that brings up valid points which get ignored. For example, the US tobacco industry was able to provide enough evidence saying "no it doesn't" at least to stay in business. The scientists in their employ are still scientists: their methods may be dodgy, but their findings are true.

The other line of discussion that doesn't necessarily put "science" in goood light is the personal defense: "I think science benefits us all." Sure, in the US and a couple other places, medical science and refridgeration have worked wonders for health and convenience. On the other hand, producing energy still pretty much fucks over the entire planet, as does individually wrapping Hostess cupcakes. Fusion research (this isn't an attack on Thiazi... the examples just illustrate the point) may sound cool, and promising, but we have several alternative sources of power that already work; they're just not profitable.

So how does one address "why isn't the world a better place?" Science (big S) could make it so; political motivations are preventing that.
 
 
Chuckling Duck
16:33 / 20.03.02
quote:Originally posted by YNH3:
So how does one address "why isn't the world a better place?" Science (big S) could make it so; political motivations are preventing that.


So how does one address "why isn't the world a better place?" Science (big S) could make it so; political motivations are preventing that.

Better than. . . what?

Given that the average lifespan of Homo Sapiens has been increasing steadily since the onset of the modern age, you could argue that the world *is* a better place, materially, on average: less dangerous, more hospitable, than it was.

But setting the material benefits of science aside for a minute, I would argue that science offers a spiritual benefit to humanity too. Learning about life and the universe, their origins and their workings, can be at once inspiring and humbling. Humanity has been looking for mysticism and miracles for so long, and at last we’ve found them in the truth, in the light of stars and blades of grass.

The world is endlessly beautiful, and science gives us another perspective on its beauty.
 
 
Thjatsi
02:52 / 21.03.02
quote:Sure, in the US and a couple other places, medical science and refridgeration have worked wonders for health and convenience. On the other hand, producing energy still pretty much fucks over the entire planet, as does individually wrapping Hostess cupcakes.

On the other hand, the vaccinations and medications cheaply or freely available for many different types of disease are an example of the good that science has done for the entire world.

quote:So how does one address "why isn't the world a better place?" Science (big S) could make it so; political motivations are preventing that.

I think the world is a better place than it was a few thousand, or even a few hundred years ago. However, I would also say that human nature threatens to misuse science and make life a hell that even Dante would cringe at. I accept this, and am willing to risk everything for a chance at a better future, because I'm completely fed up with the physical state of humanity in the present.

quote:But setting the material benefits of science aside for a minute, I would argue that science offers a spiritual benefit to humanity too. Learning about life and the universe, their origins and their workings, can be at once inspiring and humbling.

I agree with your first point that the world is a better place. However, I disagree with you here. In fact, my science education has been slightly disturbing. For example, while I consider the Lucifer Principle to be a completely brilliant book, it sure as hell didn't inspire me in any positive sense. Similarly, while I think evolution is a very important and true concept, it also makes me a bit unhappy to know that I owe my existence to the fact that the countless organisms that came before me had to engage in a nonstop struggle for survival. If science only existed for the spiritual benefits, I sure as hell wouldn't be devoting the rest of my life to it.
 
 
Chuckling Duck
15:38 / 21.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Thiazi / Mormael:
...while I think evolution is a very important and true concept, it also makes me a bit unhappy to know that I owe my existence to the fact that the countless organisms that came before me had to engage in a nonstop struggle for survival.


We owe our existence just as surely to the countless organisms that learned to cooperate symbiotically to survive. “Survival of the fittest” doesn’t always mean survival of the most ruthless; kindness has tremendous adaptive value.

I haven't read "The Lucifer Principle". What's its thesis?
 
 
The Monkey
18:49 / 21.03.02
One:

It seems to me that the one aspect anti-science vibe on this board, and in this thread, is the retro-fitting of the results of applied science to the amorphous ideal of the "scientific method," or capital-S "Science" as a Platonic whole.

I would argue that Science, as a construct, is nothing more than a system for constructing claims about the nature of the world - Why? questions - and deploying that information towards specific objectives...hence the basic/applied definition. Floating within the ideosphere, this is a unmarked process.

(And, yes, the whole miniscule/majescule Text I/Text II distinction does mark me as a Foucalt fan...and the rest suggests that as much as I dislike Plato sometimes, he does come in handy.)

The breakdown of this model occurs as soon as the construct ideal is deployed by an individual, becuase there is an inherent intermingling of the individual "scientists" subjective biases and intents with the "Objective Ideal Science": sometimes this overlap is achieved consciously and cynically, other times entirely by accident. This is "science" as we experience it, day in, day out.

We must thus demand a series of questions about how a piece of "science" is produced, following the line of thought through the structure of the scientific method - the model which self-defines Science, and marks a document as validly "Scientific," to see whether the individual theorist/researcher has

I. Strayed, intentionally or not, from the accepted structure of the scientific method:
[question - hypothesis - design - methodology - data collection - data analysis -conclusion - peer review and repitition]


With this question alone, most of what is presented in public media as "Science" in the objective sense is invalidated, generally by the final four steps. Many labs, especially applied one, do not give out their raw data to peers, instead only passing along the analysis, often meaning that a fellow scientist cannot do the number-crunching and come up with a dislocation between the numbers and their interpretation. One of the most commonly-deployed methods of skewing data in this fashion in to simply not chart the demography of the sampling population...which is how modern wonks on CNN can all simultaneously produce statistics that glaringly support their positions. Peer review and repitition is similarly becoming less frequent...again as a result of the increase in contracted, applied research versus basic...because the scientific project is in fact a "product" the patron corporation uses contractual legal powers [Non-Disclosure agreement, monopoly on intellectual property rights of contracted research] to shelter their product from scruntiny. This is the significance of the FDA, as it was founded.

II. What is the scientist bringing to the table in terms of non-objective ideas - what are his/her conscious and unconscious biases, and how do they influence the very fashion in which she/he asks "Why?"? Furthermore, how is the act of research shaped by the historical moment - the Zeitgeist and Ortgeist?

At every step of the scientific method, ideology and ulterior motive can be injected to bend research, and historically often has. Victorian "race science" was colored by a set of assumptions about How The World Works, in retrospect it is unclear how much proportionally it was an earnest endeavor or a cynical colonial rationale-hunting, but the whole project is inherently tainted. A contrasting example would be the bending of all scientific research paradigms, but especially those dealing with human psychology, around a Marxist-Leninist agenda, in Soviet Russia.

I would argue, though, that the products of this questioning-of questioning do not generate a set of multiple-choice distinctions of right/wrong, good/bad, valid/invalid, but rather a grid. "Science" and the data that results from its practice, remains morally unmarked, but highly marked by its relative worth as data extractable from the context that generated it. There is a point at which data passes over into a realm where objective meaning cannot be distilled beyond the inputted biases.

Two:

My other observation is that scientific research is inherently linked in thread-conversation with the hegemonic, the capitalist, and the authoritarian in a fashion that I would characterize as reflexive. While I'd claim that research is in fact strongly chained to these concepts by economic bonds inherently to the current flow of world capital, I'm not sure I'd agree with the vehemence or agency by which some posters sustain this position. In particular, all of the focus seems to be thrown upon the military-industrial complex, and furthermore, upon the construct of "shadow government," and its passage of money to "The Military" for spending on applied research on weapons technology.

I would contend, to the contrary, that the economic axis that most profoundly influences both the production of scientific data and its presentation to the nonscientific public is at its basis political and corporate. Why? Because the US military is, and always has been, a tool of and manipulated by politicians, and by extension the defense contractors who back the individual politicians.

The conspiratorial image of the Dr. Strangelove-esque general or the Smoking Man are caricatures that conceals greedy individuals in key bureaucratic and policy-making positions lining their own pockets by pushing through paper that demands the purchase of more flimsy products from contracting corporations, or convincing Congressman on key committees to divert funds to further production of unecessary and often poorly-made products. It is the simplest pork-barrel scam, precisely because there is a [perceived] strategic need to update equipment.

Most of the crap the DOD invests in the development of never sees the field because the design specs are defective, verging on useless, the materials used a second-rate [and the difference is pocketed].
Between the Byzantine government bureaucracy and the paperwork labyrinths sustained by defense contractors, the money invested by the US government [in the name of the military] is systematically filtered away from the actual development project. It's the auto-mechanic/house-contractor scam, on a mind-boggling scale.

Hell, half of the stuff that actually goes into the field has proven to experience "unexpected hazards." Jamming M-16s and incorrectly-timed grenades were a huge problem in Vietnam. The US spent 160 million on an APC that caught fire and blew up during its test-drive. Better yet is the cash thrown into the "superweapons" program, such as Teller's nuclear laser or the Stars Wars program.

Anyway, back on track after a necessarily circular path, the problem then is not "Science" aiding the military, but rather the veneer "science" being used as a tool to extract capital from the governmental system, relying upon the self-interests of government officials to achieve this.

Three:

In conclusion for now, I would say that I'd extrapolate an idea mentioned by DPC: the problem isn't Science, but rather the existence of the scientific realm as a region both intellectually and economically closed off. As a specialized realm of thinking, the complexity of scientific language and paradigms can be used quite easily as a schill or a blind to generate the appearance of validity/authenticity/factuality to an otherwise non-Scientific project or claim. [And often has.] One does not, however, throw the baby out with the bathwater.
 
 
Polly Trotsky
00:35 / 22.03.02
Um, grant? Tom? I'll edit this for use in the 'zine if you like...

right on

Except stop slashing marxist/leninist, please; they're not the same thing.

Was I coming off anti-science?
 
 
The Monkey
01:07 / 22.03.02
Fear not, it's hyphenated Marxist-Leninist, as in "Marx interpreted through Lenin's sick little paranoid Weltunschaung."

I have a great deal of respect for Marx, even though I do have elements of critique with his overall sociology; on the other hand, I consider Lenin to be little better than an upjumped thug with pretensions of philosophy.

And, no, you weren't coming off anti-science.

[ 22-03-2002: Message edited by: [monkey - greatest sage of all] ]
 
  

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