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Hel

 
  

Page: (1)23

 
 
Talas
23:54 / 14.01.07
To preface this, I think I should mention that Odin is my patron, though it's a rather tumultuous relationship. In part because of an unexpected visitation by her and in part due to antagonism with the Old Man, I've started working with Hel(a).

My problem is, no one I know personally works with her, the info I've got from other gods is... unhelpful, and most sources on the internet are disconcertingly poor. Most myths/sources regarding her that I've found are slanted completely towards either a negative Christian or pro-Aesir viewpoint, portraying her as a hideous, forbidding and malicious eater of corpses, and that doesn't really mesh with my experience. I know that Hela isn't a pastel basket of fluffy kittens, but I doubt she's as thoroughly bad or malicious as many sources claim.

I want a holistic view of her, so I'm seeking information on Hela, especially other people's personal experiences with her and their UPG. Tell me the good, the bad and the strange.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
01:02 / 15.01.07
Well knudbrox, you've come to the right shop. ("Barbelith Temple, for all your ScaryGod needs...")

One resource I'd recommend you check out would be Raven Kaldera's Cauldron Farm site. As well as being a noted activist, he's also a shaman and a Hel's man.

Then there's the Shadowlight site, dedicated to what have become known as the "Rökkr" tribe of Gods: Hela and Her kin. I'm not entirely on the same page as the author because she seems to be coming from a very different angle than me, very Goddess-centric, but she's someone I respect and offers some useful insights. Understand that the site is very much about UPG. I can also recommend the associate Yahoo group.

I've got a fair bit of UPG to offer here, but it'll have to wait until sleeeeeep happens.
 
 
Talas
01:44 / 15.01.07
Actually, much of my decent information on Hela and the Rokkr at this point comes from Kaldera and some other people attached to Cauldron Farm. He clearly knows what he's talking about and I respect that.

I'll check out the Shadowlight site in more depth; I scanned a few articles there today, and while some of the information I looked at seems right, some of it seems off.

I'd love to hear your UPG as well.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
02:22 / 15.01.07
(I've spent a lot of today sleeping off a fever so all of the following should be understood to be written whilst hepped up on cold meds, pinch of salt, etc. But I'm moved to put it all down now for some reason. Also be advised that I'm a Lokean, and thus more than a touch biased when it comes to Daddy's Little Princess.)

Speaking personally:

I am of the school of thought that says Hela was an initially positive or neutral figure in lore, who was later cast in a grim and disturbing light by Christian authors who needed a "Hel=Hell" to go with their "Odin=Jehova/Valhalla=Heaven" model. This is blown out of the water IMO when we look at the lore; in Baldr's Dreams, we see not a depiction of a grim and bleak underworld but rather a glorious hall, with lavish decoration and vats of mead being laid on for the honoured guest. There are, it is true, more ugly and menacing regions, but these are reserved for the worst of the worst. Your average Joe arriving via the Helvegr seems to have been looking forward to a more gentle afterlife, with food and booze and places to rest.

In my religious life I revere Hela as a perfectly respectable Death-Goddess, and have a small harrow to Her and some of Her servants in my home. I will have no truck with the concept that She is some hideous monster worthy only of fear or scorn.

I experience Her as a powerful if rather distant presence, awe-inspiring but nevertheless bringing a kind of cool transpersonal love. I have seen Her (in dreams, visions, and faring-forth) as variously a beautiful young woman, sort of like a Scandinavian supermodel; a rotted corpse; a giant skeleton; and a calm serene face in which patches of health and decay morphed and migrated. In one vision She was attended by two animals, a green snake and a black toad-like creature, who seemed to be serving Her in a similar office to Odin's ravens.

In my experience, making Her aquaintance is a wonderful way of enhancing contact with the Dead, thus adding a new dimension to ancestor-worship. Without Her, I would have found it much harder to establish contact with older or more distant voices.

Hela and Odin (This is pure UPG, of course, and should be read as such): There's something very interesting in the way in which these two death-deities interact. It's as if They're not just rivals, but have a deep, intricate relationship that isnt easily understood. Again with the visions: I once saw Them seated at either end of a wooden trestle table that was at once the size of a regular kitchen table and yet spanning an infinate gulf. They were drinking out of horns, mead for Odin, well-water for Hela. I couldn't make out everything They said, but I do remember that Odin addressed Hela with a phrase I understood to mean "sister-daughter." I am not sure what that meant. It might simply signify that Hela is Odin's neice by adoption. Or it might mean that She is His equal--sister--by virtue of Her role, and "daughter" by Odin's having cast Her into Hel in the first place. There was an intense feeling of regret in the way the phrase was spoken.

They vex each other. Hela can never have any of the Slain unless they are given up freely, and Her sense of justice is piqued by Odin's apparent whimsy. Odin can never have any of Hela's own, not even His beloved Son; Hela seems to be the one female He can neither decieve, bewitch, or seduce. She frustrates Him endlessly--yet in some ways, I think Hela relates to Odin in a way that none of the other Goddesses can.
 
 
EmberLeo
07:26 / 15.01.07
I do not belong to Hella, but we get along well enough. She has always been kind to me, and has expressed a fondness for me. I do not percieve Her as at all evil, or even negative. She is pretty darned neutral as far as I can tell. She isn't, to my perception, so much a Goddess of Death as She is a Goddess of the Dead. The difference, to my mind, is subtle, but important - Especially since I work with Papa Ghede, who is death itself. To my perception, Hela isn't there in the moment any given living being crosses the threshold. She is the able caretaker for those who have crossed it who have not been specifically directed elsewhere. She holds a very important role relative to the mythos: Irretrievability. Even one so powerful as Odin cannot simply get His son back. Once your loved ones have passed into the realm of Death, they're not coming back to you.

I have seen Her as half-dead left/right, and as living on top. I have not yet seen Her as having a skull for a head or otherwise dead on the top half of Her body, but it's been a while since I encountered Her in a context where I'm actually seeing Her directly, instead of Her priestess's body. I percieve Hela as very calm - it's difficult to get an extreme or loud reaction out of Her. This isn't to say She won't be loud for affect, but She's the sort of person for whom that is a concious choice. She tends to speak simply to me. She doesn't try to sound extra impressive or poetic, or unduely harsh. She doesn't shift how She says things to be more blunt or less. She doesn't seem concerned with the exact effect of Her specific words, as long as I understand their meaning. She has occasionally stumbled over finding the right word, which makes me think English isn't really a language She is speaking, but I also percieve that She can speak any language the Dead know - it's simply a matter of being limited by the language itself for conveying meaning.

There is a small group of people in my local Heathen community who work with Her specifically. At first, I was a part of that group because I knew I had work to do with the Dead, and also because, as a member of Seidhjallr, I knew I was often going to and from Her hall, and wanted to pay my respects to Her directly. But I had to leave the group. It took me a while to figure out that the kind of work I am suited to in personality is not quite the same as the kind of work I am able to do by hereditary talent. I seem to be a particular kind of shiny to those of the Dead who have unfulfilled needs, but the result of that attention is that I get overwhelmed and thus sick.

Even then, Hela would not make decisions for me. She knew that I oughtn't be there, but She realized that if She told me to leave, I would think She meant She didn't like me, or that I wasn't welcome in Her hall when that wasn't the point at all. So things ever-so-conveniently shifted in the group logistics until I was finally forced to admit that I didn't belong there, and conciously chose to withdraw. I went to a Blot for Her and specifically told Her I was withdrawing, and She praised me. Two simple words, "Well Done", and yet I was so incredibly relieved to hear them.

She has said that so long as I am able to take care of myself properly, and prevent harm to myself, I am welcome to visit Her hall. All but one of the times I have been to Helheim, it has seemed a bit dark, with stone walls, and quiet shadows of people going about their business, sometimes resolving to clearer images if I got closer to them, but not always.

I've only been into Hela's hall proper - that is, the main dining room where She often sits - once. It was bright and warm with a big roaring fire and many wall torches. Cheerful people were sitting at the table as any family at a feast might. The table was long down the center, and She sat at a chair on a platform that allowed Her to see everyone in the hall, but She did not eat at that time. I don't know if She usually doesn't, or if it was just because She was waiting for me at that time.

That particular time, the door to Her hall was being guarded by Baldr, but I didn't get the impression He normally guards the door for Her. He, too, seemed quite happy, charming, a bit sly - much sexier than I'd imagined, and not quite as statically picturesque. Baldr is much more the child of His father than I expected. I explain this for context - the unexpected-yet-appropriate appearance of Baldr for that occasion is what gives me confidence that my journey was a true one, and that it was, indeed, Hela I was dealing with.

I have only recently gotten to a place in my work where it is not dangerous for me on a personal level to enter Her hall for Oracular Seidh to ask advice of the Ancestors there. I have spoken with Hela through one of Her priestesses during Oracular Seidh, and She has confirmed that I am learning what I need to learn in the study of Soul Retrieval, but that I still must find a way to shield myself from the overwhelm that comes from feeling the intense need of those Dead who are not yet settled into their new home. So I shouldn't go back quite yet.

This is most of my experience with Her directly.

The other thing I suggest is that if you work with Hela much, you will most likely want to get to know Modgud, and you may need to find what your way is with Baldr.

Other side notes: In my experience, Odin's people may not enter Hela's hall proper, because Baldr is there. Frigga's people may find it harder to deal with Hela directly. It's not that Hela and Frigga get along poorly all the time, but there is a LOT of pain in that relationship.

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:57 / 15.01.07
It's been my experience that Hela and Freyja Do Not Get On on a fairly epic scale. I don't know why. A few people have suggested that they fell out over a bloke.
 
 
EmberLeo
09:43 / 15.01.07
If so, my first instinct would be Od. Freya went looking everywhere She possibly could for Od when He dissapeared, and She must have searched Helheim too - or tried to... If Hela barred Her way, so that She couldn't be totally certain He wasn't in Hela's hall, that could be a source of conflict. I have a very strong UPG that Freya's desire to collect the best of the slain is that She is hoping to find Od amongst them. But then my UPG in this area gets a bit complex...

It's an interesting question. On the one hand, I have never heard from Freya that She and Hela don't get along, or that there is any reason I shouldn't get along with Hela because Freya is my patron. Hela has never sent me away for belonging to Freya. Neither has ever said anything disparaging about the other to me. I would expect Them to have a working relationship when it comes to Seidh, even if it's strictly professional.

On the other hand, I can't remember any occasion of Them both being in the same place at the same time when Freya was doing anything happier than warding the gods in a fairly .... I have no idea how to describe that ritual. It was pretty serious, and Freya's role there was primarily to ensure that the magic didn't go sideways. Our experience is that Freya has a much more immediate control over trance magics than any others - to the point where She can just pull everything to a screetching halt if necessary.

That's the only time I can remember Them being present at the same ritual, and They never interacted directly.

Interesting - I never noticed that before. Thank you.

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:43 / 15.01.07
I'd always assumed that Od was one of Odin's bynames myself, but I could be wrong there. I've heard about incidents of Hela-Freyja antagonism from a couple of people, and IME They really don't seem to like sharing space.

knudbrox, I'm a bit concerned when you say you've begun working with Hela in part due to antagonism with the Old Man. I could be reading you wrong, but it sounds as if your decision to strike up a relationship with Hela was motivated to some extent by a desire to put your patron's nose out of joint. That's not a good idea. It's disrespectful to both Odin and Hela, and will almost certainly cause trouble later on.
 
 
EmberLeo
10:51 / 15.01.07
I'd always assumed that Od was one of Odin's bynames myself, but I could be wrong there.

I agree. Did I mention that my perspective on this is complicated?

--Ember--
 
 
Talas
16:26 / 15.01.07
Mordant:
We seem to have a pretty similiar vision of Hela. I would furthermore suggest that besides snakes and toad/frogs, she's got an affinity for corvids (ravens, in my experience) and vultures.

I once saw Them seated at either end of a wooden trestle table that was at once the size of a regular kitchen table and yet spanning an infinate gulf. They were drinking out of horns, mead for Odin, well-water for Hela. I couldn't make out everything They said, but I do remember that Odin addressed Hela with a phrase I understood to mean "sister-daughter."

That's fascinating and vivid; I'll have to think more on it.

They vex each other.
That part is incredibly evident, and part of my problem. I have a great respect for both (even if I'm periodically vexed at the Old Man myself) and would like to work with both (and am still figuring out how) but they really do have quite a rivalry.

I'm a bit concerned when you say you've begun working with Hela in part due to antagonism with the Old Man. I could be reading you wrong, but it sounds as if your decision to strike up a relationship with Hela was motivated to some extent by a desire to put your patron's nose out of joint. That's not a good idea. It's disrespectful to both Odin and Hela, and will almost certainly cause trouble later on.

Perhaps I should've been clearer. I've begun working with her after (1) she unexpectedly horsed my wife (who's working with psychic/seeress/horsing and who seems to come to it pretty naturally) and I found I liked her; and (2) independent of that, my problems with Odin came to a bit of a head. It's not that I'm trying to anger either of them and I have a great respect for both, and at this point, I'm trying to negotiate some way to work with both that doesn't lead to trouble.
 
 
Talas
17:57 / 15.01.07
She isn't, to my perception, so much a Goddess of Death as She is a Goddess of the Dead. The difference, to my mind, is subtle, but important...

Agreed. I don't work with many people out of the Norse pantheon right now, but I think I get what you're saying. To contrast, I'd argue that Hela's a Goddess of the Dead but that Odin is a God of Death (which, given some overlap but some very separate functions, may partially explain some of their issues with each other).

I've seen her primarily as half-dead divided vertically, too. She deliberately showed me the living-on-top face for a few moments, but given that she was wearing a long dress and a long black cloak, I didn't see much of the bottom half. I think she presents as split down the middle to me partly as a perpetual visual reminder of... I'm not quite sure how to word it; it seems very much a 'momento mori' and a 'death isn't pretty or dignified' thing. (Though to be fair, birth's pretty undignified too.)

She tends to speak simply to me. She doesn't try to sound extra impressive or poetic, or unduely harsh. ... She has occasionally stumbled over finding the right word, which makes me think English isn't really a language She is speaking

Absolutely; that's how I've seen her as well. I'm surprised that so many people have said she's humourless, actually; I understand that she often could be and is, but around me, she's exhibited a bit of a morbid, wry wit. I'm not sure if that's due to being filtered a bit through the horse's mind or what. She's stumbled over words with me too; I hadn't thought too much about it, because I figured it was either unfamiliarity with the language or not having the horse entirely under control, and either way I didn't see it mattering much, but you make an interesting suggestion.

I don't know if She usually doesn't [eat], or if it was just because She was waiting for me at that time.

I don't know. She's always declined food from me, but she does enjoy a cup of tea (she likes chamomile) and plain unsweetened lemon juice (she tends to have a mouthful right as she settles into the horse; she doesn't seem to like very sweet things).

Other side notes: In my experience, Odin's people may not enter Hela's hall proper, because Baldr is there. Frigga's people may find it harder to deal with Hela directly. It's not that Hela and Frigga get along poorly all the time, but there is a LOT of pain in that relationship.

Hm. That makes sense, but confuses me somewhat, given that my wife is all but dedicated to Frigga, and as I said, I'm more than a little tied to Odin (though that's a long story). I get from Hela that she likes/respects Frigga well enough, but that Baldr. Just. Isn't. Going. Back. I haven't brought up Hela or Baldr with/near Frigga, because it seemed rude and unwise.

As far as blokes go, Hela also seems incredibly fond of Tyr -- he took care/takes care of her beloved brother, is no-nonsense and is apparently very handsome. I don't know about Od (who only makes sense to me as a wandering aspect of Odin), but Hela really doesn't seem fond of Freyja personally (I get this 'pretty popular girls, ugh' feeling). I don't think that would carry over professionally, because it would disable a lot of the necessary seidh-work. I think Hela tends to judge an individual person on their own merits, while being aware of what loyalties they hold, what that those practically mean, and how the company they keep reflects back on the person.
 
 
EmberLeo
20:01 / 15.01.07
To contrast, I'd argue that Hela's a Goddess of the Dead but that Odin is a God of Death (which, given some overlap but some very separate functions, may partially explain some of their issues with each other).

Actually, I don't percieve Odin as a god of Death, so much as a god of what causes Death. But that may be a mistake on my part, considering His connection with Initiation and other forms of transformation...

I'm surprised that so many people have said she's humourless, actually;

*blinks* Well, I've never seen Her curled into a ball of uproarious laughter, but I've definitely seen and heard Her chuckle from time to time.

She's stumbled over words with me too; I hadn't thought too much about it, because I figured it was either unfamiliarity with the language or not having the horse entirely under control, and either way I didn't see it mattering much, but you make an interesting suggestion.

In this case, the stumbling was when I saw and spoke to Her directly by going to Helheim in journey. Most of the folks I know who carry Her have done so for long enough that She rarely stumbles with the language using their wetware.

That makes sense, but confuses me somewhat, given that my wife is all but dedicated to Frigga, and as I said, I'm more than a little tied to Odin

I have seen Hela and Frigga embrace and express that They each understand the other's needs, but that neither can simply put Their own needs down. Baldr's absence hurts Odin and Frigga tremendously, but all three of them know that He MUST stay in Helheim if He is to survive Ragnarok and renew the world thereafter. It's a sacrifice Odin knows was necessary. It's a sacrifice I highly suspect Frigga made conciously (and feels guilty for), and Hela knows without a doubt where Her place in the picture is. They can get along, and They each have respect for the others. But it's extremely painful and difficult to go there at all, most of the time, and I suspect They tend to avoid eachother out of respect more than anything else.

As I said, I've heard nothing of this conflict between Freya and Hela, but I have experienced nothing at all that contradicts it either.

Perhaps because my work is so tied up into Life, Death, and Love? To my perception, Hela's work is meaningless without Love, and Freya understands the nature of Love better than anyone. But by the same token, the great appreciation for Life that the Vanir all have is all but meaningless without Death, which is something Hela appreciates.

I don't percieve Od as the wandering path of Odin, I percieve Od as the lost path of Odin. That is, Odin before He initiated and lost His eye. Od was so different than to how Odin is now that He's just gone. But there's no body. The death was spiritual - well, and physical, but the body came back to life again, whereas the spirit was thoroughly transformed. Whether Freya understands that now, I don't know, and I won't ask (I suspect She probably does, but it doesn't stop Her grief, because Od really is gone regardless of how fond of the Old Man She may be now).

I think it's part of the Mystery that She won't say exactly what happened - I have talked to other Freya priestesses about it, and we've determined that exactly how we related to the story seems to teach us more about ourselves and our connections with Freya than it does about the mythos itself.

And here I am derailing the thread in exactly the way I thought I oughtn't have done. Sorry!

--Ember--
 
 
Vadrice
08:29 / 16.01.07
alright. i've never dealt with her (not supprising, i'm something of an agraphobe with regards to dvinity).
if i were to do so, however, i would treat her like i would any hollywood starlet.
you know? the type who's soul has been worn so thin by constant photoraph and media scrutny? she's been scrutenized so much that you can't read her face unless you know the type.

are you familiar with the steriotype concerning native americans and photographs? i recomend grocking this above all else before trying to figure her out.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:56 / 16.01.07
Vadrice: The problem with that though is that you're making your assessment up - based on zero experiences of what you're actually talking about. I've found myself in these things that the ideas and preconceptions that you might have about a deity are not the same as the experience of dealing directly with that deity. If anything, this dichotomy is what prevents deity work becoming a solipsistic endeavour.

The Gods often do not act in the way that we might expect them to, based on our idle speculation. They can show you faces that you are unprepared for. They rarely conform exclusively to our expectations. So I don't think you can really form a cosy opinion like that about the mysteries of a deity unless you have interacted with them personally and they have revealed that side of themselves to you.

Where are you getting the "hollywood starlet worn thin by the camera" thing from, if you have never met the deity in question? You say that this is how you would treat her, but it's a bit like deciding how you are going to interact with a blind date before they turn up. You are not accounting for the personality on the other end of the dialogue. What happens if they are nothing like you were expecting? Why are you giving people advice about interacting with someone you have never met?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:01 / 16.01.07
Whoa. What? "Starlet"? Vadrice, dear old thing--where on Earth are you getting this?
 
 
Vadrice
10:06 / 16.01.07
alright. starlet is a bad word to use. a loaded word.

i think yesteryear starlet might have conveyed what i was refering to better. though not much.
what i wanted the focus drawn to was not the adored by millions part as much as the soul drawn so thin as to provide a diferent context for judging an emotive response.

a fine poker player, a well rounded actor, or a veteran model all share the same qualities i'm trying to highlight here.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:11 / 16.01.07
Ooops, x-post.

Baldr's absence hurts Odin and Frigga tremendously, but all three of them know that He MUST stay in Helheim if He is to survive Ragnarok and renew the world thereafter. It's a sacrifice Odin knows was necessary. It's a sacrifice I highly suspect Frigga made conciously (and feels guilty for)

I'm not sure I go along with that interpretation. I don't really see Frigga, from my limited interactions with Her, as the kind of being who'd consciously tear off on a wild goose-chase of such epic proportions just to cover up Her husband's conspiracy.

When I meditate upon this I get a powerful image of Frigga on horseback, riding like the wind through the 9 Worlds, with one arm flung across Her eyes as if she's blocking something horrible out. Frigga seems not to know that Her son's fate can't be averted because She won't let Herself know, won't allow Herself to become consciously aware. But the knowledge is there in Her heart, buried beneath Her awareness, and it's this subliminal understanding that causes Her to make that fatal error in overlooking the mistletoe.

What I get from the story is a lesson: that even if you have access to unparalleled knowledge of the future, you can still be blinded to it by your own emotions. But that's just my take on things.
 
 
Vadrice
10:11 / 16.01.07
and 2headed rude boy, don't disabuse the observational powers of a a detached observer.
when dealing with gods (especially nordic ones) basking in the presence therein is not always the most trustworthy way to make a sound judgement.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:13 / 16.01.07
But why? Where are you getting it from? Why do you think you have this special insight into the mysteries of a deity you have never interacted with?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:15 / 16.01.07
But what, exactly, are you detachedly observing here? I'm sorry dude but I still don't quite get where you're deriving this interpretation from. Where in the legends regarding Freyja (I presume we're talking about Freyja here because Hela as a starlet is just a whole barrel of WTF) do you get a 50s pinup or a veteran poker player? Why do you say Her soul is stretched thin?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:19 / 16.01.07
and 2headed rude boy, don't disabuse the observational powers of a a detached observer. when dealing with gods (especially nordic ones) basking in the presence therein is not always the most trustworthy way to make a sound judgement.

But you are not a detached observer if you have not made a direct observation and are merely speculating based on second or third hand sources. If you have not had any real experience of the presence of a deity, you have nothing to really base your judgement on. Therefore you will forgive me for taking your speculation about the nature of Hel with the same pinch of salt that I would reserve for Matt Damon's portrayal of Loki in the film Dogma.
 
 
Vadrice
10:22 / 16.01.07
wow. a double post of vengance!

it's easy, yo.
my ma tevos criminal minds for me all the time.
this profiling stuff is as easy as that! *snaps*
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:24 / 16.01.07
Um. Vadrice, that's not very helpful. And now I'm even more confused as to which Goddess we're even talking about here...
 
 
Vadrice
10:35 / 16.01.07
ach.
i try to be of help, but those of us without a patron to bitch about never have that hard won perspective that people crave.

you can have your thread back. i'll derail it no more.

not that i'm not right, mind, but aparently a creative writing major ruined me for actually being able to communicate in terms that are in any way useful to anyone but myself and my adoring fans.

okay.
myself.

the adoring fans are a hopeful future adition.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:43 / 16.01.07
Dude, no one's casting you into, y'know, the Outer Darkness where there is a wailing and a gnashing of teeth. I'd just like to know what you meant, and where you're getting this perspective from. That's all.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:44 / 16.01.07
the adoring fans are a hopeful future adition.

Demonstrating some ability to explain your thought processes, when gently questioned to do so, might help on that front.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:01 / 16.01.07
i try to be of help, but those of us without a patron to bitch about never have that hard won perspective that people crave.

To reiterate: Why do you think you can be of help here, if you have not had any experience of the thing under discussion? Perhaps you can explain what insight you have and why we should take your ideas on board? I'm not being sarcastic - I'm just asking you to support an unsupported statement that you have made.

If I was lost at sea, I would take the advice of someone who I knew to be a a seasoned navigator and who could demonstrate their experience as such, over the advice of some random guy who said "lets go that way" without being able to explain why or what led to him making that statement.

There's lots of people in this thread who have worked very closely with the Norse Gods. I don't work with that pantheon myself, but I would place more stock in the various voices who have demonstrated a history of putting the work in, actually doing the magic, going out and speaking to these deities, and reporting back their hard-won experiences. Than I would place in the voice of someone who, when questioned, just jabbers on about the TV show 'Criminal Minds'.

If someone is reading this thread and intending to approach the Norse deities, I think it is important that statements are supported to some extent, in order to differentiate the voice of experience and the voice of pure speculative fiction. Otherwise this might as well just be the Creation forum.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:09 / 16.01.07
those of us without a patron to bitch about

Just a small aside--you don't actually need a patron to give you an in with our Friends in the North or any other pantheon (as far as I know).* With the Tivar you're probably best off asking your ancestors to hook you up, rather than waiting around for yr Divine caseworker to show up on the doorstep.


*Or for anything else, really.
 
 
Vadrice
11:10 / 16.01.07
agh.

look. you're both asking me to explain my thought processes.
that's not kind. it''s like asking what is wrong with global warming or the stock market.

could you be a bit more spacific?

you're asking how i could describe something without having encountered it.
have you ever encountered impossibility? how about a perfect circle?
how about a hollywood starlet?

i have a feeling you would gleefully describe all of those things, and have some valuable insight to impart, without a single first person eperience.

i've totally perverted this thread already. i can tell.
 
 
Vadrice
11:26 / 16.01.07
oh. and sorry to confuse things more, but i so was talking about hela.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:27 / 16.01.07
look. you're both asking me to explain my thought processes.
that's not kind. it''s like asking what is wrong with global warming or the stock market.


No it's not, it's more like asking you to explain why you think Hel or Frigga (I'm still unclear about who you are talking about) is like a hollywood starlet or a poker player, and why we should take your word for it.

could you be a bit more spacific?

Yes. Why do you think that Hel (or Frigga) is like a hollywood starlet or a poker player, and we should take your word for it?

you're asking how i could describe something without having encountered it. Have you ever encountered impossibility? how about a perfect circle?
how about a hollywood starlet? i have a feeling you would gleefully describe all of those things, and have some valuable insight to impart, without a single first person eperience.


But we are not talking about abstracts, we are talking about a specific personality. If some people were having a conversation about what you were like, Vadrice, based on their direct experiences of you in real life. I wouldn't presume that I could contribute any meaningful insight to that conversation if I had not spent any time in your presence or even spoken to you before. I would not have any basis for anything that I said other than vague speculation, and I would not likely offer this speculation to a group and expect it to be received with the same weight of validity as the insight of your close personal friends or people who had spent a lot of time around you. Can you see the problem?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:31 / 16.01.07
To take your analogy further, if you were making unsupported statements about global warming or the stock market, in a thread devoted to discussing those issues - I would certainly ask you to support what you were saying, and explain the reasoning behind your opinions on these things. The same thing applies here.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:32 / 16.01.07
The concept of impossibility, though abstract, is adequately defined in our shared culture. Ditto the perfect circle. They're both relatively simple concepts easy to outline: the impossible is that which cannot be, or be done; the perfect circle is a geometric concept with a clear mathematical description. What a Hollywood starlet is is a bit more of a grey area--when does the starlet become a star?--but still, this again is a concept that can be adequately defined. If I want to tell you what a Hollywood starlet might be like, I can take what I know about real live (or real dead) starlets, and give you an outline based on their characteristics. None of these concepts seems to have much to do with Goddesses, especially not in the kind of context that we're working in here: a hard or at least firmish polytheism that regards Gods and Goddesses not as archetypal figures but as living, independant consciousnesses.

To be specific: you claim to have a certain perspective on this Goddess (still unclear as to whether you mean Hela or Freyja, BTW). You ascribe to Her certain traits and characteristics.

What I'm asking is:

1) Could you be clearer on what you mean by "a soul stretched thin" as it applies to this Goddess?

2) From where do you draw these impressions? From reading primary sources such as the Eddas? From reading secondry sources such as modern re-tellings? From discussions with others who've told you about their experiences with this Goddess? From pop-culture depictions? From your own theoretical idea of what a Goddess of the Dead/Goddess of Love might be like?

Hope this helps.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:33 / 16.01.07
Sorry, x-post.
 
 
Saturn's nod
11:43 / 16.01.07
"I saw this happen in a vision/in a dream/in my imagination" or "my intuitive impression is ... " is a different kind of assertion to "amongst a group of six friends (with whom I regularly talk about this stuff for the past ten years) there was agreement when the topic came up last that ...".

Those are different again from "I read in $saga ($version/$provenance) that author sees $personality as having this characteristic" or even "the penguin book of myth/this lecturer I once heard says that ...".

A strong explanation as I understand it is one which richly connects into many other kinds of account: not only personal experiences of various weightings (deep/shallow/lifechanging/everyday/professional), but text and other media sources of various kinds through history with various provenance, and consensus drawn from shared experiences of groups sharing varying duration and depth. What Mordant just said, really.
 
  

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