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Race and Religion

 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
13:50 / 12.12.06
(this is semi derived from this thread. i'm not entirely sure whether it's more suited as a topic to Switchboard or Head Shop, so mods feel free to move it if it's felt to be in the wrong place.)

From the discussion of the term "anti-Semitism" in that thread, and how it's a problematic term because it arguably elides or conflates religious identity with ethnic or racial identity, i thought it would be worth Barbelith exploring the relationship between the two (apologies if there's already a thread on that, a google search using the terms "race" and "religion" didn't turn up an obvious one).

There seems to be a (sometimes acknowledged, sometimes unacknowledged) elision between religious identification and ethnic/racial identity which permeates a lot of discussion about both "race relations" and religion. This elision seems to me to be a very problematic one, as it has the potential both to prevent religious debate from happening on an actually theological/ethical/ideological level, and to create arguably baseless and certainly problematic accusations of racism based on criticism of religion(s).

To take one fairly prominent example, i seem to recall it was a certain silly-facial-haired Austrian who described "the Jews" as "a race masquerading as a religion" (apologies if the quote's inaccurate, i'm not particularly inclined to revisit the source of it). It now seems, on the basis of a lot of the stuff that gets talked about Israel/Palestine and "anti-Semitism", that they (or, rather, the Zionist strand of Judaism as exemplified by the state of Israel) are in fact the precise opposite - a religion "masquerading" as a "race" (which, if you accept the validity of the biological/genealogical concept of "race" at all, which i'm not convinced it's right to do, brings up all sorts of other contradictions, as i touched on in that thread).

The irony is that identifying Judaism as an ethnic identity, rather than a religious one, despite being precisely what the worst of all racist regimes did in order to attempt to exterminate them, is seemingly what those who currently seek to represent "the Jews" want to do...

Also, IIRC, Jews and Sikhs have a status as protected groups under the Uk legislation on "racial discrimination", despite being religions rather than ethnicities, nationalities or biologically-defined "races", whereas, say, Hindus or Muslims don't (which is the reason why some want to push through separate legislation against "religious discrimination", which is far more contentious than its "racial" equivalent - i'm pretty sure there's a thread on that somewhere, will try to find and link to one).

Anecdotally, it seems that, in the UK at least, there's a pretty strong tendency for Muslims (and others) to define Islam as an ethnicity or race as much as as a religion, and to regard anti-Muslim feeling as racism (with the result that there's a confusing elision between criticism of the tenets of Islam itself as religious ideology, criticism of cultural practices seen as "Muslim", and actual racism) - this despite the fact there are "white", "ethnically British" converts to Islam (and, IME, those i've met in that category are among the most passionate and even fanatical in their devotion to Islam).

Also of probable relevance are the history of the partition of India along (mostly) religious lines into (mostly) Hindu India and (mostly) Muslim Pakistan, and the subsequent construction(s) of "Hindi" and "Pakistani" as national/ethnic identities, and the current (as in, last few decades) situation in Iraq and Iran, where "Sunni" and "Shia" seem to be used as as much ethnic as religious identities, and Ireland, where "Catholic" and "Protestant" seem to be likewise (i seriously doubt there have been any converts from one to the other in Ireland recently over what they believed about transubstantiation, Papal authority, the status of Mary, etc).

(I'm having trouble in finding examples, apart from the Sikh one which i know relatively little about, involving non-Abrahamic religions - possibly in itself worth discussing?)

So, what do people think? Does (or should) religion play a meaningful role in "ethnic" identoty, and vice versa? Is (or should be) religion all about beliefs which can be discussed and debated in a purely ideological/philosophical matter, or does it involve non-chosen, essentialised identities which are not just about belief? Is there a diofference dependent on whether it's a proselytising or a non-proselytising religion, and are genealogical claims to religion (such as "you're a Jew if your mother's a Jew, regardless of what you actually believe in", leading to identities like "atheist Jew") valid? Is strong criticism of a religion as ideology "racist" because members of that religion identify religion with race?

Discuss...
 
 
calgodot
18:21 / 12.12.06
It now seems, on the basis of a lot of the stuff that gets talked about Israel/Palestine and "anti-Semitism", that they (or, rather, the Zionist strand of Judaism as exemplified by the state of Israel) are in fact the precise opposite - a religion "masquerading" as a "race"

I'd have to say I think it's a bad idea to attempt any parallel construction to something "a certain silly-facial-haired Austrian" utilized to explain himself. Accusing a group of people of "masquerading" is an accusation of dishonesty, and hardly the manner in which we might begin a balanced discussion of the role of "ethnicity" in the "religion" of Israel or Palestine. One might just as easily accuse the "Palestinians" of masquerading as an "ethnicity," "nation," or "people," considering the majority are ex-Jordanian or ex-Syrian and the only unity they share (aside from religion) is their oppression by the Israeli state.

Besides, you don't hear Jews talk a lot about being a "race" any more. Not that they ever did much in the first place. Racial identity is particularly not found in Israel, where European Jews (ashkenazim) are outnumbered by "Middle Eastern" Jews (sephardim). The ethnic tensions between these two groups are rooted in economic inequality and the standard racism that white Europeans have for people with dark skin, not any argument over whether sephardim are Jewish or not. The cultures are very different - even some of the religious practices differ, though not siginificantly, between ashkenzaim and sephardim (Ethiopean Jews are a whole 'nother matter) - but the shared religious beliefs still allows for unity and a common identity (they are all Israeli and Jewish).

Does (or should) religion play a meaningful role in "ethnic" identoty, and vice versa?

I presume you mean w/r/t government regulation, as it is clear that in the minds of most people religion in almost inseparable from ethnicity or culture. Give people three cardboard dolls - one clearly white, one clearly black, one clearly "Middle Eastern," and ask them to identify which is Christian. 100% of the time, White = Christian. Tell them two of the figures are Muslim, and both dark-skinned figures will be designated thus. No one ever thinks of white Muslims.

W/r/t to the growing British police state and its need to create more and more laws to control the population? As with our "hate" laws in America, factors such as ethnicity and religion are often motivators for violence. As such they enter into the area of mens read, the mental state of the attacker. They are without a doubt relevant and ought to be considered by judge and/or jury.

Whether these factors make a crime more heinous or not are the heart of the matter. I'm of the opinion that an assault on a man for his race or religion is much more heinous, at base, than an assault on a man for his wallet. It is my view that such crimes are "terrorism," in that they are intended to intimidate a minority population through violence and fear.

Is strong criticism of a religion as ideology "racist" because members of that religion identify religion with race?

Criticism of religion is oftentimes rooted in racial prejudices. I'd say that when a white Christian issues blanket condemnations of Islam for "violence" or "mistreating women," race is without a doubt a factor, considering that Christianity has its own history of violence and misogyny. Much of what passes (in the US) for "criticism" of Islam amounts to racial/ethnic stereotyping. Considering that the recorded "anti-Muslim" violence in the US since 9/11 appears oriented toward cultural signs (turbans, for example), it seems that - w/r/t Islam at any rate - religion, race, ethnicity and culture are all in play.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:18 / 14.12.06
Does the fact that Arabs are also technically Semites have any bearing here?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:01 / 14.12.06
No, it doesn't, I think, at least with regard to the idea of antisemitism. Antisemitism is not anti-Semitism, like anti-Nazi; it's antisemitism, an anglicised version of antisemitismus, a German word coined specifically to describe the correct attitude towards Jews - that is, one supportive of discrimination against them. This is rooted in ideas of the racial superiority of Aryan over Semite, but it was never intended to refer to Arabs, or Phoenicians for that matter.

In what sense were you thinking, though?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:04 / 14.12.06
Fair enough. I didn't know that...
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
15:57 / 19.12.06
I think i probably should have posted this in Head Shop, rather than Switchboard. Can it be moved there, or should i repost it with c&p of the replies so far?
 
 
Baz Auckland
21:41 / 19.12.06
I'll put in a request to move it... stay tuned!
 
 
Elettaria
18:59 / 02.01.07
I've heard Muslims claiming that "anti-Semitism" should refer to hatred of Muslims as well as Jews because they're semitic too. I wish Haus had been there during that discussion. They were, I feel, voicing a resentment that hatred against Jews was being named and abhorred in a way that hatred against Muslims was not, and in some cases it looked suspiciously like the protest was in fact a cover for resentment of Jews full stop. My response was that they should stop focusing on the word "semitic", it's not the real issue, and that language develops in odd ways and can't be held to a standard of consistency that's not actually there. "Islamophobia" is a bit clunky (though not as clunky as "anti-Islamism" or "anti-Muslimism" would have been; "anti-Muslim" works OK as an adjective at least), and the -phobia root which shifts blame to the victims by implying that they are causing people to fear them is as irritating as it is in words such as "homophobia", but overall it's fairly neutral and will do. Anti-Semitism and Islamophobia aren't the same (although people who subscribe to one view are more likely to subscribe to the other), there's no point in conflating them, and it's more important to have both recognised and fought.

Judaism is, I think, fairly unique in being so widely considered a race as well as a religion (this does not mean that race is considered synonymous with religion), and the idea's been around for a long time. I'd guess that this is because historically it has mostly been a diaspora religion forming tight-knit, separate communities with a tendency to move about. Religious beliefs lead to religious practices which turn into cultural practices and differences, which may persist even when the religious belief is absent, or exist as entities in their own right. Have a look at some of the Jewish cookbooks around, for example. Jews set themselves apart quite markedly by the practices resulting from purity laws, particularly the dietary ones but also those of sexual behaviour, dress, hygiene and so on, and generally resided in closed communities, sometimes separated to the point of living in ghettoes. A few thousand years of this, with much moving about from country to country while keeping a high level of internal cultural consistency, will turn a community into a discrete ethnic group, yes, just as the current high level of assimilation for diaspora Jews reduces the cultural markers. I knew someone who said his grandfather, who was from Poland, had "Race: Jewish. Religion: Mosaic" on his passport, which I've never heard of elsewhere.

Generally, if you grow up as a diaspora Jew you belong to two cultures, Judaism and that of the country you live in. (I feel more Jewish than British, perhaps because it's a stronger identity or because it's one that goes against the norm and thus stands out more.) This can result in bizarre phenomena such as the very Jewish family Christmas dinners I attended (and loathed, but that's another story) as a child, which were distinguishable from the family dinners held on Jewish festivals mainly by the slight difference in some of the food and by the whole family's being there (the doctors, and it's a medicky family, had difficulty getting time off work for the Jewish festivals, so Christmas was easier to arrange). It gets interwoven. If someone's been raised on Jewish food and always cooked Jewish food, they're unlikely to stop if their belief in God changes, assuming they're not simultaneously rejecting Judaism in its entirety. I'm currently not attending synagogue, where I was a regular and the assistant musical director, because I've recently come to recognise that I probably don't believe in God. I'd see no reason to change what I cook anyway (sometimes it's Iranian Jewish, sometimes it's Thai), but I'm finding that I hold on to the domestic rituals, including lighting the Friday night candles and reciting the Shema daily. This is a little odd - after all those years not believing in it much, prayer sticks more than I'd thought - but I'll see where it goes. I'm almost certainly going to continue making Judaica (I've promised to embroider a tallit [prayer shawl] for my best friend, and a challah cloth for the Jewish community here, very possibly a Torah mantle as well) and will do so in a spirit of respect for the religious items and affection for the recipients. I miss synagogue services, particularly the music and the poetry and the community and the contemplation. I know Jews who attend synagogue just for those. I've always regarded them as rather hypocritical, just as I feel strongly that a couple should not enter a religious marriage unless both believe in that religion (my stepsister upset my stepfather by getting married in a registry office, since both she and her husband are Jewish but don't believe in the religious side of it, something I really respect her for). In that case it can be difficult, family pressure and what feels normal and so on. I've always opposed matrilinearity and thankfully managed to end up in the only denomination of Judaism that I know of (Liberal) which holds that Judaism is a matter of upbringing and/or education, not of bloodlines. I am having trouble staying friends with a woman from my school who refuses to date non-Jews, although she has been having a strange sort of affair with a non-Jewish friend of hers (whom she'd never go out with properly, of course, because he's not Jewish and also because he has a girlfriend), and who can't understand why some people see this as racist.

As for why they've been accorded protection as an ethnic group rather than as a religion, it's probably because historically attacks on Jews have been directed at cultural practices and differences (which are more visible, apart from anything else) rather than at beliefs. Religious and racial hatred are often fairly muddled and use one thing to excuse another. Look at the wave of anti-Muslim attacks after 9/11, for instance; hell, there were even anti-Jewish attacks, the whole situation was so screwy. I'd regard both types of attacks as both religious and racial hatred, since they involve both, and I'm not sure it's useful to conflate the two just for the sake of filing something neatly. If the vulnerabilities of one group to attack gets noticed before another group, the solution is not to whine that the first group shouldn't be protected but to make sure that the second group gets protection.

Indeed, I feel that such conflation makes the problems worse. There are far too many people who blame the whole of Israel for some of its governmental policies (are all Britons responsible for Iraq, or historically for slavery?), and then extend this to blaming all Jews, assuming amongst other things that all Israelis and all Jews approve of all of the actions of the Israeli government and of the small number of extremists who cause trouble in particular (a lot of the main troublemakers in Israel are in fact fanatics in the settlements who have immigrated from America and aren't much loved in either country. "Zionism" is a minority opinion). Similarly, Muslims worldwide get branded as terrorists because of the actions of a small minority who are generally denounced by mainstream Muslims as completely corrupting the message of the Quran anyway, and this is extended to the point where a headscarf can be read as a sign of terrorist sympathies - and this can be pulled into a debate about hijab which had ostensibly been about issues of female sexuality. The vast majority of Israelis and Palestinians just want to get on with their lives in peace, notwithstanding the understandable bitterness on both sides (the situation is shitty, horribly complicated both now and historically, largely deadlocked), but the second there's an atrocity - a suicide bomb, an Israeli soldier shooting an unarmed child - the whole nation is blamed and everyone's expected to take one side or the other, even though such atrocities are far from the norm and in no way reflect the views of the majority.

Conflation also seems to lurk in those topics it's really difficult to discuss without things going pear-shaped rapidly. I've noticed two topics I tend to stay away from are Israel, because you too often get pounced on the minute you declare you're Jewish and told that you therefore approve of the occupation, and Muslim veiling, because you can say "I disagree with the ideology behind veiling but every human being has the right to dress as they like, including the right not to be pressured into a form of dress" till you're blue in the face, you just get told hat you're interfering with Muslim/women's rights. Similarly, try having mixed views about abortion, which has turned into whole political movements with loads of baggage attached to one issue (if you dislike abortion you are automatically antifeminist, anti-contraception, anti-sexuality and far right Christian). Blake Head, if you're reading this, what was it that teacher at school told you about a tendency to reduce complex matters to simple ones being a sign of fascist thinking?
 
 
sdv (non-human)
10:33 / 03.01.07
The suggestion above that Antisemitism is not anti-Semitism, like anti-Nazi it's antisemitism, an anglicised version of antisemitismus, a German word coined specifically to describe the correct attitude towards Jews may be technically true but needs further research to confirm. Because it ignores the actuality of the concept of the 'sub-human' which allowed the fascists to mass-murder anyone they chose to include within the group. 'Slavs', 'Gypsies', 'Gays', 'Communists'. The Arabs and Iranians were simply lucky...

Worth remembering to the use of the concept of 'muslim' in Auschwitz well documented by Levi and Agamben.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
15:46 / 03.01.07
After some further thought I think I'll to be more coherent...

There are a couple of things that have been bothering me since reading this earlier today. The first is that I have sense that Religion Racial and Ethnic are being produced as universals wheras it's clear that they should not be. To give just one example: it's clear that a 'veiled muslim women' is not the same social and political entity in France as it would be in Iran in 1981. In simplistic terms on the one hand a women is oppressed by being forced to wear a veil whilst on the other she is oppressed by having the veil forcibly removed...

Where the ethnic and geographical componant may be more relevant is in those cases where the religious componant is being used to legitimize political demands. Where this is a top down political function, evangelical christianity in the USA is the obvious example, the religious demands are always reactionary (though i accept that liberals may want to disagree with this statement). Whereas in the case of Muslim demands in the UK, these are really scarcely disguised 'communitarian' attempts to be heard. This leads rather naturally to the suggestion that you really need to be very careful with concepts like 'religious discrimination' . It is one thing to accept that Muslims are being oppressed in the UK and quite another to accept that this is 'religious discrimination' which suggests that a 'religion' or 'spiritual belief' might have rights in the sense that we might discuss human or animal rights...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:21 / 03.01.07
Because it ignores the actuality of the concept of the 'sub-human' which allowed the fascists to mass-murder anyone they chose to include within the group. 'Slavs', 'Gypsies', 'Gays', 'Communists'. The Arabs and Iranians were simply lucky...

Slavs, Gypsies and communists are not considered Semitic, though. Persians were generally considered Aryan rather than Semitic by the kind of wingding taxonomy that was being applied at that point. To say that Nazis had a view of the world that entitled them to look on whom they wished as biologically inferior is not controversial. However, it does not have any bearing on the word "antisemitism".

The earliest attested use of a cognate term is antisemitische, used by an Austrian Jew in 1860 to describe theories of racial supremacy of Aryans over Semites at that point being advanced. The noun Antisemitismus is coined by a German racist, Marr, in the 1879 pamphlet der Weg zum Siege des Germanenthums uber das Judenthum.

The title pretty much translates itself, I think, but just in case: he's not that bothered about Arabs. Given time, it is perfectly possible that the Nazis following his lead would have started being bothered about Arabs, but during the Second World War alliances were formed with Arabs, Iranians and South Asians without race being a stumbling block. There's some more background on the use of the term here, along with discussion of how the term can usefully be employed here. Since neither Jews nor Semites are actually a race in a strict sense - Jews being a religious grouping and Semitic a language culture - the relevance of the term to the discussion of race and religion is quite meta, although certainly of note.
 
 
Elettaria
11:31 / 05.01.07
The article you linked to looks like a good one and I'll bookmark it, but unfortunately I don't have the time to read a whole thirty-nine page article just now. I've had a look at the first few pages, and something seems to be faulty, it looks like a lot of bits are being left out and the remaining text doesn't fit together coherently. Any chance you could quote the relevant bits for me?

Since neither Jews nor Semites are actually a race in a strict sense - Jews being a religious grouping and Semitic a language culture - the relevance of the term to the discussion of race and religion is quite meta, although certainly of note.

What is the definition of a race in this sense? Does it matter that the Jews have been treated as a race for centuries, whether or not they technically are one, particularly in the matter of attacks, which are far more often based on cultural differences than religious ones? Do we distinguish between attacks based on the Blood Libel (the accusation that Jews use the blood of Christian children in the ritual baking of matzot for the festival of Passover), which involves religious practice, and attacks based on myths such as the one that Jews are controlling the media, which is a completely secular notion? If we distinguish between those as causes, what happens if the effect is the same (either could lead to the burning of a synagogue, an obviously religious situation, or a physical attack on an individual Jew in non-religious circumstances, say)? Is it relevant that Judaism is also a culture which includes its own languages, used only by that group (depending on locality, Yiddish or Ladino), with literatures in those languages?

This is reminding me of a recurrent conversation that has occurred when I've debated matrilinearity (the idea that people are "naturally" Jewish if they are born of a Jewish mother, which is supported by most denominations of Judaism) with people who agree with it. I follow the Liberal assessment of Jewish status myself: someone is Jewish if they are raised as Jewish, even if it is only by one parent of either gender, or else if they undergo a conversion process through any recognised strand of Judaism. I will cite, for example, my friend Paul, whose maternal grandmother was Jewish, whose mother practices Catholicism, and who is an atheist with no interest in, or as far as I can tell background in, religion. He's Jewish according to Orthodox Judaism but not according to Liberal Judaism. (I think he's probably Catholic according to Catholicism too.) The response when I mention him is frequently, "He'd have been Jewish according to Hitler."
 
 
sdv (non-human)
16:18 / 05.01.07
Haus,

Laing writing on Sartre:

"The anti-Semites are a multiplicity of men. What they have in common is a common-object - the Jews. 'The Jews' for each anti-Jew is his own anti-self. Each anti-Semite recognizes his identity with the others who have anti-selves in common with him. The common bad-object is a stamp or mark common to all the anti-Semites, This common bad-object is a stamp or mark common to all anti-Semites..."

I see the way in which your insisting on the seperation of the specific antisemitism from the actual mass murder may be correct. But the critical point is surely the missing three million dead, the justification/understanding for which I don't think have been addressed from within your focus on the subset of the Nazi position. The definitions you are reproducing are surely(?) a subset of the above position ?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:56 / 05.01.07
So, for you antisemitism simply means a dislike of people you don't like, they being characterised as Jew? Fair enough. It's a very poetic argument. Back in the more prosaic section of the library, antisemitism is often connected, mirabile dictu, to other forms of bigotry. I think the two can overlap, if you wish. You want to subsume the hatred of Slavs, gypsies, homosexuals and communists - among others - into the antisemitic project of the Nazis. I would rather see those groups as other than a conceptual adjunct to make the antisemitismus of Hitlerfascismus more strikingly evil, and would suggest instead that the Nazi platform was based on a number of bases of hatred, of which some were antisemitic.
 
  
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