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Keffiyeh? I hardly know her!

  
  

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Char Aina
05:37 / 09.12.06
are you cold, or do you just hate jews?
(from jim hancot's blog)



jim suggest that the intifada style keffiyeh has unsavoury ties to the german far right movement, and quotes from a flyer translated from german:


OK, you’re somewhat surprised. You wear a Palestinian scarf. You’re young, maybe you’d call yourself radical, maybe not. Maybe you’re an antifascist, maybe not. In any case, you wear a Palestinian scarf.

Maybe you’ve just bought it, maybe you’ve had it for a while. To get to the point: Every item of clothing is a statement. Every item of clothing has a (hi)story. And especially this one.


so far about as shocking as a barnum statement, and hardly deserving of the shocking title.
it goes on:


Since 1968, when students were for the Vietcong and against the Americans in Vietnam, this item of clothing has gradually become fashionable.
At that time, so-called National liberation movements, such as that of 1968-1975 in Vietnam, were the focus of solidarity. The Vietnamese Nation (Volk) was fighting for its freedom – in the nineties, it was the Kurdish Nation (Volk) that was fighting for ist freedom, or the Palestinian Nation (Volk). In every case, it was a Nation (Volk) in question. Strange somehow.

In Germany today, only the Nazis still talk of National liberation and refer to the just struggle of the Palestinian Nation (Volk), against Israel, against the State of the Jews. And here we are. At the conflict between Palestinians and Israel. Already, between 1936 and 1939, this item of clothing, originally worn only by the rural Fedayin of Arabia, was imposed by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (al-Husseini, the great Nazi collaborator) upon his own people upon threat of punishment. European headwear was forbidden. Those resisting this imposition were assaulted or shot dead. The German National Socialists supported this Grand Mufti financially. Thus, the Nazis started a press campaign in Berlin against the partition of Palestine. The Grand Mufti promptly thanked the German Nazis: in this way, the German government did the independence struggle of the Arabs in Palestine a great service. The Palestinian scarf is an expression of the fight against Israel.


while i am not all that learned in the long history of this conflict, i do feel the point being made is a bit ridiculous.
it doesnt follow that because nazis like something everyone who also likes it is a nazi, clearly.

but do the connections have any significance?
is there more to the scarf than i am aware of?
what does it say to wear one?

i dont own a scarf, but i recently considered buying one, after israel attacked lebanon. i didnt, but the urge is still there and i may still act on it.

how does the scarf make you all feel?
do you hate it?
do you have one?
would you want to kick my ass if i had one?
what would you think?

back to jim's translation for the last word:



And why do Nazis wear Pally scarves today? Because they are simply anti-Semites, and because they have a lot of admiration for a Nation (Volk) whose members fight right up to physical self-destruction for their land, which they call holy. Here, Nazis are a bit jealous that they don’t possess this murderous daily life.

The Palestinian scarf is the story of a radical left-wing aberration, or error. It is time to recognise this error and in future to wear a scarf from H&M, C&A or one knitted by dad.

Cool kids don’t wear Pally scarves.
 
 
calgodot
06:02 / 09.12.06
how does the scarf make you all feel?

I've worn a red keffiyeh for years. My first was a gift from a Palestinian friend. Though I don't have it any more, when I wear my newest red one I think of him.

would you want to kick my ass if i had one?

Only if it was the one Ali gave me. Some wanker stole it from me in 1992.

A keffiyeh is not a football club shirt or a flag. For many it is little more than a nice shawl. Some people wear them because the color and pattern look cool. Some people wear them to show sympathy for the Palestinians. (Better they show their "support" by not spending the $20 on the scarf and instead giving the money to a worthy Palestinian charity.)

As for getting one's ass kicked for a fashion statement: These days in the US the likelihood is that anyone wearing a keffiyeh would be seen as a Al Quaeda sympathizer; the relationship to the Palestinian cause would be lost to most Americans, I think. I've worn mine several times since 9/11, and usually only get stares - though one guy in Santa Fe asked me what kind of statement I was trying to make by wearing it. "It's cold out," I answered.
 
 
Char Aina
14:05 / 09.12.06
Better they show their "support" by not spending the $20 on the scarf and instead giving the money to a worthy Palestinian charity

that's not really showing support, thuough, that's giving support.
they are two different things.
wearing it, as you point out, might lead to being asked [...] what kind of statement [you're] trying to make, at which point you can have a conversation about the conflict.

if you donate money to a charity they can use that, but no one will be made any the wiser.


do the associations of the keffiyeh not worry you? would you wear anything, regardless of the offence it might cause?
 
 
nighthawk
15:04 / 09.12.06
The Palestinian scarf is the story of a radical left-wing aberration, or error. It is time to recognise this error and in future to wear a scarf from H&M, C&A or one knitted by dad.

I'm totally confused by those blog extracts; the writer doesn't seem to have a coherent argument, beyond vaguely associating the scarf with Nazis?

Anyway, regarding the scarf itself, people wear them for all sorts of reasons: personal, political, aesthetic, or just plain idiotic. I wouldn't agonise too much over buying one if you want to. But if you're explicitly trying to make a 'statement', you might want to find out a bit about the politics and history of the region, so that you know who it is that you're expressing solidarity with and why you are doing it. Think about your own motives too, and what it is that's driving you to make a sartorial statement about events in that particular region of the world.
 
 
Char Aina
15:21 / 09.12.06
I'm totally confused by those blog extracts

to be fair, they are translated from german.
the blogger does link to the text of the original flyer here.
 
 
nighthawk
15:41 / 09.12.06
Yeah, I don't speak German so I'll have to rely on their translation, but its not so much the prose style that's confusing me as the point the writer is making.

I mean, fair-play if ze's trying to encourage kids wearing these scarfs to reflect on why they're doing it, or questioning the merit of uncritically lining up behind one side of whichever nationalist struggle happens to be in the news at the moment. But pointing out a vague connection with the Nazi party seems a really ham-fisted and obscure way to do it.
 
 
Mistoffelees
18:50 / 09.12.06
This text doesn´t correspond with my experiences. Has the author ever seen German neonazis? I´ve seen them, in newspapers and live surrounded by police. And I´ve never seen them wear something like this.

As far as I can remember it´s the punks and extreme left wing people that have worn those scarfs. Often it was the only way to tell left and right extremists apart, because they both like to wear Doc boots and camouflage clothing.

BTW, the correct translation for Volk is people (nation = Nation).
 
 
Dutch
11:30 / 10.12.06
The scarfs like this are, in my experience more associated with the lefty/punk scene than the right. I have one, a gift given to me by a good friend, and I wear it because it gets cold around here. While I sympathize with the palestinians to some degree, probably because they are in the underdog position, I don't see wearing the scarf personally as a political statement.
 
 
el d.
20:29 / 11.12.06
well...

the whole Israel/Arab conflict is seen a bit differently in Europe, especially in Germany and Austria. ( guess why )

People wearing such scarves often endorse the suicide bombings of civilians as " the only method of protest left to the palestinians". ( Some trozkist groups organizing support for the palestinian struggle. )

But that´s simply not it. The "vague ties" to the nazis are quite concrete in terms of history. Of more than 850,000 Jews in Arab lands before Israel's statehood, fewer than 29,000 remain, the vast majority fleeing to Israel because of religious persecution.
( quoted from eretzyisroel )
Arab antisemitism and the nazi antisemitism are quite alike: both have the basic goal of ridding their respective countries of all jewish "influence".

And yeah, the scarf was a symbol of the left once. Back when a few leftist groups still existed in Palestine. Right now, it´s mostly Hamas and they don´t think Israel and the jews living in it have any right to existance whatsoever.

So, as I´m a non-violent guy, I won´t beat you up but I strongly advocate against wearing it to make some sort of political statement.
 
 
Char Aina
20:47 / 11.12.06
People wearing such scarves often endorse the suicide bombings of civilians as " the only method of protest left to the palestinians".

could you link to an example of this sort of behaviour?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:17 / 11.12.06
Of course he fucking can't, it's just more smearing, just like the link you first posted, designed as ever to make the idea that the Palestinians should continue to be crushed slowly underfoot seem palatable to self-identified humanitarians.
 
 
Char Aina
21:42 / 11.12.06
to be fair, the link i first posted was only the most extreme view i foudn against them.
other people have issues with it.
i found the image at the head of the thread here, a less extreme example of the bloggers against scarves.
 
 
calgodot
23:28 / 11.12.06
do the associations of the keffiyeh not worry you? would you wear anything, regardless of the offence it might cause?

My association of the keffiyeh is, first, with my friend, who gave me my first one, and second, with his family, and third, with my other friends who are Palestinian, Iraqi, etc. What others associate with the keffiyeh is not my concern.

Yes. I wear anything I want to wear, regardless of the offense it might cause.

In fact, I have been known to wear an item because of the offense it might cause.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
00:08 / 12.12.06
Personally, i don't wear a Palestinian scarf because, if i did, i'd probably be mistaken for a member of the SWP (UK) or other sectarian Trotskyist.

I've never heard of any association (in the UK) with the keffiyeh (or any other symbol of the Palestinian struggle) with the extreme right (the extreme right, at least the openly racist or neo-nazi side of it, tend to regard Jews and Palestinians as equally subhuman and contemptible, and would like to wipe one out just as much as the other - tho they tend to position themselves for political purposes as, if anything, grudgingly pro-Israeli, since they a) want to distance themselves from the Nazi regime and overt anti-Semitism*, and b) probably, IMO, have some admiration for the Israeli apartheid regime (see also Ireland and South Africa)). If anything, the extreme right would regard a keffiyeh as symbolising the "reds" just as much as, if not more than, I as an anarchist would.

I would like to see the abolition of the state of Israel, but only because, as an anarchist, i'd like to see the abolition of all states. I don't think either Hamas or the Palestinian Authority is (or rather would be, if they had real power) any better.

I do have sympathy for the Palestinian people, including those who suicide bomb as an act of resistance (having been both suicidal and a religious fanatic in the past, i probably understand the mentality of a suicide bomber more than most), but don't support the aims ("national liberation", which to me is an oxymoron) of their (or perhaps more accurately their leaders') current struggle... so, i dunno, i'm not really sure if i'm comfortable calling myself "pro-Palestine"... i'm definitely not "pro-Israel" tho - is there an anti-colonialist, anti-Israeli-state, but not pro-Islam or pro-Palestinian-nationalism position?

*"anti-Semitism" as used by the defenders of the Israeli state is a term which i find particularly problematic, both because it elides ethnic with religious identity, and because, if you are going to accept the validity of (very unscientific, and colonialist in origin) ethnic categories like "Semitic", the Palestinians are very probably far more "semitic" in actual blood descent than the vast majority of Israelis (who are mostly the descendents of European converts to Judaism, rather than actual Middle Eastern "ethnic Jews" - not that "ethnic" anything is anything other than pseudoscientific bullshit, anyway)... however, it's the term everyone seems to use for racism against Jewish people, so i'll use it in the absence of any other...
 
 
Char Aina
00:40 / 12.12.06
Yes. I wear anything I want to wear, regardless of the offense it might cause.
In fact, I have been known to wear an item because of the offense it might cause.

which category do you feel the keffiyeh you wear falls
into?
 
 
Char Aina
00:48 / 12.12.06
is there an anti-colonialist, anti-Israeli-state, but not pro-Islam or pro-Palestinian-nationalism position?

i'm not sure.
it does seem a pretty common position among some of my acquaintances.
most of them seem to be anarchists of one stripe or another, but i wouldnt presume it was anything like a uniform belief.



it's the term everyone seems to use for racism against Jewish people, so i'll use it in the absence of any other...

i'm similarly uncomfortable with the innacuracy of that term. as you say, arabic people are also semitic, and to label arab nations as antisemitic seems ridiculous.
has there been a thread on this before?
are you aware of any thinking on the subject that might be educational?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
02:03 / 12.12.06
For reference, the dictionary definition of anti-semitic stipulates reference to Jews, so I'd probably go with that.
 
 
Char Aina
02:09 / 12.12.06
it does indeed.
i may have to give up the search for a better term.
you see my dilemna, though.
 
 
Dutch
13:07 / 12.12.06
quotie:

"So, as I´m a non-violent guy, I won´t beat you up but I strongly advocate against wearing it to make some sort of political statement."

I have never considered wearing it to be a decisive political statement. A sympathy for the Palestinians is not going to make me change my mind about what I feel to be the fundamental wrongness of killing/murder in any way. There are idiots on both sides, there are smart people on both sides.

I sympathize with the Palestinians, like I said, because they seem to be in a decidedly underdoggish position. This doesn't mean I'm going to support Hamas should they committ terrorists acts again.

On the other hand, I sympathize with the Israelis. One need only look at centuries of persecution to become convinced that they do deserve their own land in which to live. But I do think that to provide Israelis this land in the midst of fairly hostile territory, taking away land from others was not a very smart thing to do. It was bound to spiral out of control one way or the other. Three huge religious beasts fighting in the same dustbowl...
 
 
Nocturne
13:53 / 12.12.06
The "vague ties" to the nazis are quite concrete in terms of history. Of more than 850,000 Jews in Arab lands before Israel's statehood, fewer than 29,000 remain, the vast majority fleeing to Israel because of religious persecution.

Two completely different groups share a common goal of anti-semitism. Aligning yourself with one does not mean you align yourself with another. The Nazis were in favour of Aryan (sp?) supremacy, and placed high values on myths and legends from white cultures. I'm sure they would be appalled to be associated with an Arab group, and a formerly Islamic society (under the Ottoman Empire).

Personally, while I have often admired muslim headscarves, I would not wear one as I see them as a religious symbol. I wouldn't wear a keffiyeh unless I was in a desert. If you want to wear one, go ahead.
 
 
Char Aina
14:11 / 12.12.06
what makes you define them as religious?
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
16:56 / 12.12.06
The Nazis were in favour of Aryan (sp?) supremacy, and placed high values on myths and legends from white cultures. I'm sure they would be appalled to be associated with an Arab group, and a formerly Islamic society (under the Ottoman Empire).

There was al-Husayni.
 
 
calgodot
17:34 / 12.12.06
which category do you feel the keffiyeh you wear falls
into?

Both, I suppose. It obviously offends some people. Said people in my view need some sort of mental re-adjustment if they get all twisted up over a square yard of cloth. I suppose it's the lefty version of flag obsession.

Re: the term antisemitism

The debate over the use of "antisemitism" to describe pathological hatred of Jews is a settled matter for all but white supremacists, holocaust deniers, and those who have little better to do than argue over such insignificant points. Those who attempt to engender this confusion have an agenda to reduce antisemitism to simple garden-variety hatred.

It is clear that Jews have occupied a special place of hatred in the hearts of non-Jews. It is clear that this hatred is not merely racism or religious bigotry or political rivalry. It is, in its contemporary form, all three.

Arguments that "Arabs are Semites, too" are facile and irrelevant to the accepted use of the term. The conflation of all people of Middle Eastern into "Arabs" is mostly a function of ignorance. Not all Middle East citizens are Arabs, nor are they all Semites. There is historically no blanket-hatred of Middle Eastern people which even remotely compares to the antisemite's trifecta. About the closest thing to a pogrom against "Arabs" would be the Crusades, an event which also brought with it persecution of Jews and the cementing of Judaism as a heresy to be destroyed by the Church (leading directly to the Inquisition). (No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!) (Sorry... couldn't resist...)

I sympathize with the plight of the Palestinian people. They are subject to the violence of a State, and do not have the violence of a State to protect them. Their self-interested, megalomaniac "leaders" would sell them out in a heartbeat - in fact, the current "leadership" of the Palestinian people is the most adept and professional in their history, yet not one "leader" is interested in peace. Instead, they have returned to the rhetoric of genocide, which was abandoned even by that pirate Arafat as unworkable.

I also sympathize with the plight of the Israeli people, who are themselves subject to a violent State - their own - and appear to be moving headlong toward a police state (not unlike the US). Sadly, the people are not only frightened of being blown up, but this fear is also manipulated and promoted by their "leadership" as a means of securing power and wealth. I have over the decades seen Israeli friends who were once "peaceniks" become, as a result of the extended siege mentality, become paranoid and suspicious of Palestinians to the extent that they now advocate some form of military action.

I do not sympathize with antisemites, left or right. I do not sympathize with anyone who wishes the destruction of the Israeli state, in spite of my own anarchist opinions on the subject, just as I support the creation of a Palestinian state. I do not sympathize with suicide bombers, or anyone who thinks that blowing people up will help solve their problems. I sympathize with the members of the Israeli military who refuse to serve, refuse to participate in the cycle of violence. I sympathize with the Palestinians who choose education and resistance over death and destruction.

For what its worth: when it's not being worn, my keffiyeh hangs in my closet, next to an Israeli flag (which was given to me by a friend in the IDF).

"Do I contradict myself? Very well then, I contradict myself. I am large; I contain multitudes." --Walt Whitman
 
 
Char Aina
18:08 / 12.12.06
I suppose it's the lefty version of flag obsession.
i don't understand.
can you explain?


The debate over the use of "antisemitism" to describe pathological hatred of Jews is a settled matter for all but white supremacists, holocaust deniers, and those who have little better to do than argue over such insignificant points. Those who attempt to engender this confusion have an agenda to reduce antisemitism to simple garden-variety hatred.

do you intend to describe nattyrajah and i as people who have an agenda to reduce antisemitism to simple garden-variety hatred?
what exactly do you mean by that?

i am uncomfortable being labelled alongside white supremacists, for one thing.
i am pretty damn uncomfortable with your other two categories too, but i think that one is of chief upset to me.

Not all Middle East citizens are Arabs, nor are they all Semites.
clearly.

The conflation of all people of Middle Eastern into "Arabs" is mostly a function of ignorance.
where have i done this?
if, as i feel, i have not, then why are you mentioning it?





finally, i am curious why you would wear your keffiyeh for the purpose of offending people, rather than simply doing so in spite of their offence.
i'd like to know who you seek to offend, and i'd like to know why.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:35 / 12.12.06
Statement: antisemitism describes, specifically, attitudes towards Jews, whether those Jews are of strictly Semitic origin or not. This may not make complete etymological sense, but a surprising amount of language doesn't. If you want it to make strict etymological sense, consider that the German words from which "antisemitism" is derived was a ten-dollar way of saying Judenhass - the hatred of Jews. Note that modern scholarship tends to say "antisemitism" rather than "anti-Semitism" precisely to highlight that the word is not, strictly, a preposition-noun combination - rather, it is an invention to describe a specific thing - dislike and mistreatment of Jews.


Statement: If you are uncomfy with the thought of describing Arabs, Persians or whatever else as antisemitic, the best thing to do might be to look for another way to phrase it. This might also be useful for distinguishing between political opposition to the actions (or the existence) of the state of Israel and religious or cultural opposition to the Jewish people in general.

None of which means that evade is not talking bollocks - in the absence of further evidence, it seems likely that ze is - but all of which might prevent a thoroughly pointless diversion.
 
 
calgodot
18:44 / 12.12.06
can you explain?

The idea that a flag is anything other than a decorative piece of cloth is what I call "flag obsession." The idea that a keffiyeh is always a symbol would be the lefty equivalent.

do you intend to describe nattyrajah and i as people who have an agenda to reduce antisemitism to simple garden-variety hatred? what exactly do you mean by that?

I don't know your agenda(e), nor am I making claims of knowing.

What I'm suggesting is that when you question the validity of "antisemitism" as a term to describe Jew-hatred, then you camp yourself right next to some unsavory people. People who advocate the extermination of Jews, for example. Or people who deny the Holocaust. Since you seem to be coming from a leftish position, I somehow think you'd find their company abhorrent.

i am uncomfortable being labelled alongside white supremacists, for one thing.

I don't blame you. Nonetheless, if you oppose the state of Israel (for example), then those people will happily march right alongside you. It's the same dilemma faced by those good-hearted people who really do only have a problem with illegal immigration: they sometimes find themselves allied with neo-Nazis and other bigoted goons. It's a tragedy, and one which people in such situations would do well to examine.

The focus of "antisemitism" as "Jew hatred" is the commonly accepted definition. I've only heard two groups of people ever argue its meaning and use. One group would be the Jew-hating neo-Nazi Holocaust denial crowd. The other would be uninformed, usually young and passionate, ideologues. No one serious about the issue chooses to argue over the semantics of the term, particularly when said argument attempts to dilute the term (and thus render it irrelevant). To put it simply, I can't have a discussion with you about antisemitism if the first thing you want to do is argue about the meaning of the word.

i'd like to know who you seek to offend, and i'd like to know why.

That, my friend, is none of your business. And I mean that in the nicest, most polite way possible.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:22 / 12.12.06
Nonetheless, if you oppose the state of Israel (for example), then those people will happily march right alongside you.

This is true, but not very useful. If you support the existence of the state of Israel, you will find yourself aligned with Christian Fundamentalists seeking Apocalypse. If you avoid eating meat and oppose animal cruelty, you're ideologically in line with Hitler. Further, the way in which one might "oppose the state of Israel" will likely vary wildly in ideology and aims. To lump any opponents of the state of Israel in any fashion in with the extreme right is unlikely to get you very far.
 
 
Char Aina
19:23 / 12.12.06
I don't know your agenda(e), nor am I making claims of knowing.

with all due respect, it seems very much as though you are;

The debate over the use of "antisemitism" to describe pathological hatred of Jews is a settled matter[...] have an agenda to reduce antisemitism to simple garden-variety hatred.

you seem to be saying that only people with a certain (unsavoury) agenda would even mention the dissonance between etymology and usage.
please explain how i misunderstand you, if indeed i do.


No one serious about the issue chooses to argue over the semantics of the term, particularly when said argument attempts to dilute the term (and thus render it irrelevant).

why are you mentioning dilution of the term?
it would seem irrelevant to anything i have said.

i find words interesting, and the 'incorrect' nature of some words piques my curiosity.
this does not mean i am a holocaust-denying anything, and i would suggest that your reaching for the nazi-gun so early and on such a tenuous connection is unhelpful.

To put it simply, I can't have a discussion with you about antisemitism if the first thing you want to do is argue about the meaning of the word.

this is not a thread about antisemitism.
this is a thread about the various connotations of wearing a keffiyeh of a particular style, and the possible motives behind someone doing so.

i did not approach this thread with the intent to discuss the term. i mentioned, in response to another poster, that i felt the word had a meaning that was not in line with it's etymology. as haus points out, this is a common problem.
as i myself said, it is probably best to resign myself to never finding a better term, and so to using it as everyone else does.


That, my friend, is none of your business. And I mean that in the nicest, most polite way possible.

unlike the wearing of a scarf, which you often mean to be taken in an offensive way? engaging in your lefty version of flag obsession?

Said people in my view need some sort of mental re-adjustment if they get all twisted up over a square yard of cloth.
how can you offend someone if it's just a piece of cloth?
why do you keep it in your closet if it's just a piece of cloth? surely it is also a gift from a friend, and symbolises that friend's love? otherwise why keep it?

a flag is many things besides a piece of cloth.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:52 / 12.12.06
Once more - the word antisemitism comes from the German word antisemitismus, which was coined to provide an apparently scientific rationale for Judenhass - Jew-hatred. There is no dissonance between etymology and meaning at the point of transmission into English. It was coined to refer to Jews.

Now, I think you and calgodot have managed to advance one painfully facile argument each. Why not call it a draw, and stop stinking up the thread? I'm sure that there are plenty of threads about Israel and Palestine that you could have a go at.

Back at the keffiyeh - my experience follows Mistoffeles'. If it is being worn by neo-Nazis, I have certainly not experienced it, although my awareness of recent neo-Nazi fashion trends is limited. It might be useful to think of whether, if this is not in fact the case, the writer is seeking to achieve a specific effect - to identify the activities of the Palestinians with those of European neo-Nazis. What would the writer gain by doing so? If that _is_ Christian Worch, and if he is wearing a keffiyeh, how widespread is that fashion statement? Does it simply mean that if one wishes to express solidarity with Palestine, one must accept that one will be doing so in a way that looks a lot like the way Christian Worch is doing it - much as, if one supports the occupation of certain territories by Israel, one is sharing that support with right-wing fundamentalist Christians? Who printed that leaflet, who are the "Young Democrats" who apparently handed it out, and what were they seeking to achieve?
 
 
Char Aina
20:23 / 12.12.06
Once more - the word antisemitism comes from the German word antisemitismus

ah, right.
now that you say that i see what you mean.
thanks for expanindg your pont to make it clear.
if only i had understood the etymology, i would have seen no dissonance.

but anyway, what facile argument have i put forward, haus?
and why are you framing this as a competition between clagodot and i?
 
 
Char Aina
20:25 / 12.12.06
perhaps i should direct your attention to this section of my post:

i did not approach this thread with the intent to discuss the term. i mentioned, in response to another poster, that i felt the word had a meaning that was not in line with it's etymology. as haus points out, this is a common problem.
as i myself said, it is probably best to resign myself to never finding a better term, and so to using it as everyone else does.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:55 / 12.12.06
and why are you framing this as a competition between clagodot and i?

that's an interesting question.
maybe it's the way that the two of you are quoting a couple of lines of each other's dialogue.
than saying stuff which isn't about he keffiyeh.
or about anything much to do wuith the keffiyeh
but are about the arab-israeli question.
or just a demand for more conversation about oneself.
as above.

So, now that we've done antisemitism 101, and "if you do or think x, you are just like this other person who does x" - the two facile arguments, for reference - how about we talk about the keffiyeh, and the presentation of the symbolism of the wearing of the keffiyeh in that blog post again? Maybe we should pick up with al-Husayni, whom valence mentions above. The leaflet translated in the blog post also talks about al-Husayni, and draws the _slightly_ tortured conclusion that, since al-Husayni recruited for the SS, and al-Husyani's supporters wore keffiyehs, weraing the keffiyeh by extension means that you are supporting Nazism. I often wear a shirt without a tie, but I am not expressing my solidarity with the Islamic revolution by so doing.

Looking more than cursorly at the blog, it appears that it is not a place where Palestinians - or "Pallies" - are likely to get much of a hearing - in part, this is why I would like to know who printed the leaflet, how liberal the translation is and what the actual statistics and historical references which I suspect are being mangled actually represent.
 
 
Char Aina
21:57 / 12.12.06
ah, right.
the facile argument is the one i wasnt having.
i was continuing to reference the word issue because my having referenced it in passing was being used to suggest i was just like teh nazis.
it was always a side issue, and i am more than happy to have it dropped.
if calgodot wishes to suggest that i am a nazi again, i will probably talk about it again.

as i said:
i did not approach this thread with the intent to discuss the term. i mentioned, in response to another poster, that i felt the word had a meaning that was not in line with it's etymology. as haus points out, this is a common problem.
as i myself said, it is probably best to resign myself to never finding a better term, and so to using it as everyone else does.
i'd add now:
if only i had understood the etymology, i would have seen no dissonance.

i have advanced no argument, merely acknowledged a lack of understanding that corresponded with NRJ's.
i am even more happy to drop it now, if you will let me.
 
 
Char Aina
22:00 / 12.12.06
a free translation of the flyer gives me:



Okay, you are amazed somewhat. You carry a Pali-cloth. You are young, you do not name yourself radically, or also. You do not name yourself antifaschistisch, or also. In any case you carry a Pali-cloth. Perhaps you just bought yourself that, are perhaps it already a while here. In order to come on the point. Each garment is a statement. Each garment has a story. And this very especially.

Since the students in the year 1968 were for the Vietcong and against the Americans in Vietnam, this garment came slowly in fashion. At that time so-called people release movements were, like 1968 to 1975 in Vietnam, the flight point of the solidarity. The Vietnamese people fights for its freedom - in the '90er's was it then the Kurdish people that fought for its freedom, or just the Palestinian people. Always it concerned at the same time the people.

Strangely somehow. In Germany, the Nazis of people release speak today only and call themselves on the just battle of the Palestinian people, against Israel, against the country of the Jews. And there we arrived. In the discussion between Palestinians and Israel. Already between 1936 and 1939, the garment, that originally only the rural Fedayin Arabiens carried, was put through, of the Großmufti of Jerusalem under punishment threat at the own population. The carrying of European hats was forbidden. That that defended themselves on the other hand were beaten or shot. The German national socialists financially supported this Großmufti. So the Nazis in Berlin started a press campaign against the divisions Palestine. Promptly the Mufti was thankful at the German Nazis: Already therewith the German government had proved the battle of the Arabians in Palestine around its independence a large service.

The Pali -cloth the expression of the battle against Israel is. The country foundation of Israel has sewed needed its cause however not, because the USA unconditionally a bridges head in that East, but rather in the European and Asian antisemitism. Israel is the direct result of the mass destruction of the European judaism through the national socialistic German. Usual German employees of served the Krematorien, usual German soldiers shot indiscriminate men, women and children. Furniture bought aryanized usual German housewives, related the dwellings of the murdered Jews. There it requests at least strangely on if the children of the once overcome German choose themselves in the 70er and '80er's Palestine as a solidarity object.

Why just Palestine? Did because it go indirectly against the Jews and its country protecting it? It is not stood boycotted long here, because in the Hamburger harbor street Losungen how Israel. With the solidarity with Palestine, the Pali came -cloth to Germany and held itself until today well.

What is however to be held basically of a people release movement of again Palestinian, that wrote itself on the flags, to destroy the country Israel? (After one, monthly raised, representative survey of the Friedrich-Ebert-foundation advocate 88% of the Palestinian population of suicide attacks against israeli civilians). Israel as a middle class company on the other hand also a protecting harbor is for all that, that would have in Arabic countries no chance: Muggy, lesbians, self-confident women, atheists and Nonkonformisten that have no desire to conclude its life as a martyr.

Carry and why the Nazis today Palitücher? Because it - well clear - Antisemiten are, and because they raise much admiration for a people, whose members fight to the physical annihilation for its ground, that reverently is named. There the Nazis are a little envious that they have not that, this homicidal and murdering everyday life. The Palituch is the story of a radical left-wing error or an error. It is the time to recognize this error and to carry sewed in the future a scarf of H & M, C & A or of Vati.
Cool kids carry no Pali-cloths.

Quotations from: Danny ruby stone: Yassir Arafat, Heidelberg 1996 and Klaus Gensicke: The Mufti of Jerusalem, Amin el-Husseini and the national socialists, Frankfurt/main 1988. To the expanse harvest: Michael Krupp: The story of the country Israel, from the foundation to today, Gütersloh 1999 (24.80 DM)


perhaps one of our german posters could have a look and tell us how accurate either are?
 
 
Char Aina
22:03 / 12.12.06
here's a link to the google translation.
 
  

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