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Sandbox games from Jet Set Willy to Grand Theft Auto

 
  

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Janean Patience
09:36 / 08.12.06
Looking back over my gaming life, my favourite games have always been sandbox games. Right back to Mazogs on the ZX81, I've found exploring more fun than just climbing the ladder of levels. It's a different kind of skill, though by God it takes time, and a different kind of achievement.

The fundamental difference, for ex-Spectrum users anyway, is between Manic Miner and Jet Set Willy. The gameplay in the two was near enough identical; get the glowing item, avoid the marching monsters, don't fall too far and marvel at the weirdness of Matthew Smith's mind. The difference in the second game was that you didn't have to collect items at all. Each room was connected to at least one other room and players could ignore the glowing items and set off to see what they could find. The objectives changed. Instead of working out the timing to get the item and beat the baddy you'd wonder where a certain route led, try to climb the tree, go to the beach.
That was, IMO, the sensation that made the game famous. It's arguable you have to be less skilled; I couldn't beat Wacky Amoebatrons on Manic Miner so I never saw what was past it. I couldn't beat the Nightmare Room on JSW so I just avoided it.

But discovering the extra bit, the hidden house with the bonus stuff, feels more fun than just doing the level. Coming up with your own way of killing the baddies, one the programmers might not have thought of, can be more fulfilling than just learning to do it properly better than anyone else.

To some extent that's a given these days. The original top-down Grand Theft Auto, and its massive success, made it so. To put you in a whole functioning city and leave it up to you what you did next, giving you the freedom to race around killing cops and pedestrians and pushing cars onto train tracks, and the popularity of that, changed the gaming world. I was addicted. For about five years the GTA series were the only games I played. Even when all the missions were done, there were myriad ways of amusing yourself.

Currently I'm on Mercenaries, a GTA clone set in North Korea which isn't as entertaining but does a good job of using the same gameplay mechanics to do something entirely different. Once again it's the freedom and the atmosphere that keep you playing, the sense of a substantial world. Stuff like World of Warcraft are all about that world, as far as I'm aware. Your achievements within it are only a way of exploring it more thoroughly.

Anyway, apologies if this is fractured but I'm doing it in between other stuff. Who plays in the sandbox? What's the appeal? What effect has this kind of gaming had on the market?
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:08 / 08.12.06
The original version of Jet Set Willy was unfinishable apparently. Either due to massive bugs or that certain rooms were actually impossible to complete. The first people to complete it only managed to do so by hacking to get rid of the bugs.
 
 
iamus
10:35 / 08.12.06
There was the famous Eternal Death bug for starters. Basically, if you entered a room by falling/jumping straight into an enemy, your next life would have you entering the room in the exact same way and hitting the enemy again. Repeat until dead. The way it was fixed was by having Willy start again at a neutral entrance to the room.

I don't think there was much point even trying to finishe JSW, especially JSW2 which was the same game, retooled with new rooms (not by Smith) including the spaceship and the other space rooms.

I never bothered trying to complete it myself. The fun totally was in picking a route you wanted to explore and then heading off, seeing if you could get far enough in to make it to the rarer, odder rooms.... like the Battersea Power Station one, or the Giant (Miner) Willy one or even my favourite.....



Which would kill you ad infinitum no matter what version of the game you were playing. I remember one time, the game failed to load any of the enemies and I made my way here to see what'd happen. It lead to The Off Licence (where you'd die anyway, due to the massive fall).

This goddamn work of art might be of interest....
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:31 / 08.12.06
Matthew Smith interview.

Jet Set Willy walkthrough. Strangely compelling.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:34 / 08.12.06
There's also Castle Wolfenstein and Doom I and II which also added to the idea of it sometimes being fairly easy to complete a level but less so to kill everything.
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
22:34 / 08.12.06
I find that sandbox games radically change the way I play. With more linear games, I'll often die two or three times at the same point before figuring out how to do something in particular. In the GTA series, for example, I've seen myself simply driving around shooting things for hours. Once I even just pretended to be a taxi driver and picked up fares for an hour. Then revelled in the Travis Bickleness of it as I picked up a businessman and capped him in a back alley.

I think sandbox games speak to the five year old in every gamer, particularly the over-imaginative kids who would sit with toy soldiers or lego and tell themselves long, complex stories. Sandbox games (of the more modern variety) combine this constructive, story-telling instinct with a natural exploratory urge. Plus explosions.
 
 
Char Aina
02:35 / 09.12.06
i agree.
i havent even got out of the hood in san andreas, despite having played it for hours.

i spent at least 12 of those riding my BMX.
probably more.
i've invented tricks that arent programmed in(judging by the way some of the landings look -awkward) and i've racked up more miles by bike than by any other vehicle types added together.

at some point i noticed you don't get points or money for any of this hard work, but then i realised; you don't get points in real life either.
in real life i never skated to watch my trick meter go up, i skated to feel good. there's an awesome : pain ratio that gets more favourable as you improve, but that's it.
riding the BMX bike feels really good even just cruising around, and i can easily burn hours doing it. the awesome : pain ratio on that one is almost 1:0, giving me almost infinite potential for painless awesome.

when i thought about it like that it all made perfect sense.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
16:49 / 10.12.06
I got bored of doing the missions the first time I played GTA SA, so after unlocking all the areas, I just started hanging out in it. And doing fun stuff. Like going to nice resturaunts in it, or playing basketball, or hanging out in a bar, going to the gym. Going for a country drive. Climbing a mountain. Going for a walk around Las Vegas. Gambling. Sky Diving. Doing the BMX.

I refused to kill people, or use a gun. And had just as much fun. Got money from non-violent crime, then from gambling. And then I went on a real bad streak, and killed a drug dealer. And worried about it? Why?

I think the best thing in GTA is just driving around in a nice car. That's fun. Or sky diving off towers! Base Jumping?

After a while though, I started killing people. Which is kind of sad, when I could just not.
 
 
Char Aina
22:08 / 10.12.06
if i lived in a consequence free environment and could not die, i'm afraid i suspect i might start doing morally dubious shit.

i mean, think about it.
alive for years and years and years, groundhog day style, never able to die and never able to get out of the state.
you'd go troppo for sure.

i think the killage is prolly never more than a chapter of lord of the flies away.
 
 
fluid_state
00:57 / 11.12.06
My favourite thing to do in San Andreas was to pick up a hooker and drive her to another city, freeing her to start a new life. Unless, of course, my high speed flight resulted in a countryside crash. In which case I'd have to chase my passenger down and cut her up with a chainsaw, being alone in the woods and all. It served as a nice little test of my driving ability, the only reward being a sense of fictional morality.

Nothing weird about that.
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
08:44 / 12.12.06
In this vein, has anyone had a go at Bully/Canis Canem Edit yet? My perception is that it's a much smaller world, but the depth of interaction is far greater. Thoughts?
 
 
Janean Patience
09:36 / 12.12.06
This is the appeal of the sandbox, exemplified by the GTA games. There are goals, there's a plotline, but it's very much secondary to being given an entire world to fuck about with as you please. Even on the first game, which seems hopelessly primitive looking back, the appeal was the world. Wait for a train and it comes; shoot the train and it explodes. Terrify citizens onto the track and watch them fry. I used to play for a couple of hours in a new city discovering its secrets and only when finishing it would occur to me the crime boss I'd supposedly been working for didn't even know I'd arrived; I hadn't answered one ringing phone.

This behaviour was rewarded, as well. The player who fights running battles around the city and gets into random cars discovers that some of those cars contain missions, some can be sold second-hand. Were there crates in the original? There was stuff to find, anyway. I remember that being a hook in Mercenary way back; the diligent player who swooped low to check out every wire-frame settlement got stuff. You could follow the plot, or discover the bases and accompanying featureless underground environments for yourself, and somehow this was far more thrilling.

Sandbox games are dull to watch. If you've ever sat behind someone exploring San Andreas it's numbingly repetitive; I've found a shed! I've found some houses! Oh look, the docks! The player constructs their own narrative, linking colourful incidents together into a mental feature film. It's a film you choose. Personally, I err on the side of mass slaughter and getting myself into desperate situations with the police on every side, then miraculously escaping from them. toksik does BMX tricks. A friend told me by email that riding a BMX off a cliff was more realistic than it was in his dreams. My brother specialises in landing large planes on the top of that enormous mountain. I once raced around and tried to date all the girls in one day while wearing the gimp suit. Everyone chooses their own path.

There has to be an element of useless freedom, as well. Going back to Mercenary, it's crucial that you can just pick up and pocket the mechanoid leader. You can also pick up all the furniture you find in the city in the sky, then jump off and drop it leaving a trail as you hit the ground. There's no purpose to it but it's extremely gratifying. There's no need to change your clothes in San Andreas but I spent what, 30 per cent of my time there doing just that.

What other sandbox games are there? What else do you do?
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
10:15 / 12.12.06
I loved Daggerfall, the second of the Elder Scrolls series, as a sandbox game. Unlike its more recent successors the game was really grand scale; the playing area was truly enormous, and while there was a linear central plot (and a linear "character" "progression" - read "bunch of stats" "getting bigger" - element), you were free to ignore the lot of them, wander off to one of the smaller kingdoms and just wander the countryside looking for Stuff. There were huge, randomly generated dungeons scattered all over the place - these were Daggerfall's biggest strength and second biggest (the first being that the game was bugged to the back of beyond, and back home again, and back to the back of beyond) weakness; the dungeons were both bafflingly complicated - even with the automap feature, it was difficult to work out where the hell you were and how to get back out to the entrace - and, eventually, composed of recognisable and repetitive "blocks" (the more recent Oblivion manages to throw away the huge scale yet still retain the repetitive elements, be still my rolling eyes!). But, y'know, the whole thing was just so damn cool for the sheer sense of scope it gave. Although the bugs did put a severe crimp on some of your options, there were certainly a very large number of directions you could take your play.

On a very similar note, there's the equally vast and equally buggy Frontier - First Encounters, second sequel to the original Elite, one of the very first (if not the original) sandbox games. FFE offered a large number of career paths for the budding starship pilot and boasted an astonishingly large area to explore; again, admittedly, much of it was repetitive, and settlements were (nearly) restricted to "only" those stars within a couple of hundred light year radius from Earth, but still; you could just take off to the middle of nowhere and randomly land on strange planets beyond civilisation just to see what the view was like. Or stripmine.

I'm playing GTA2 at the minute for light relief, seeing as how they've released it for free download. I must admit I prefer it to the more "modern" GTA games. It's more lighthearted, or something, more cartoon-y.
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:02 / 12.12.06
Freelancer's another Elite-style game which I still play despite having completed it ages ago. Whilst the combat and trading in it are pretty basic, it is a beautiful game to fly around. The Badlands in the New York sector alone are deeply cool to cruise. A big purpel and black storm cloud in space full of long monolith-like rocks. Every now and then you get a flash of lightning and you can see the silouette of the local pirate base or jump gate if you're close enough.

Fly through the jump gate and appear in the Magellan Cloud, white icy emptiness.

Every now and then you fly into regions you've not seen before and come across a wreck, or a radiation belt, or mines. All entertaining.
 
 
Janean Patience
13:47 / 12.12.06
I meant to mention Elite, though it wasn't my game but the one I watched my brother play, hour after hour. It never sparked my imagination for some reason and I never played any space-roaming games after that. The sandbox seemed dull and samey, and even incursions into Witchspace became routine.

The opposite, in a sense, to GTA; the special missions were only very occasional (five in the whole game?) and the rest of it was all shuttling back and forth trading stuff and killing the baddies. I'm sure my brother had some grand spacefaring narrative in his head, though.

Did Freelancer and its ilk allow you to wander around outside the ship? Could a space game have that kind of first-person perspective, where you wander around the ship you're flying? Will this forthcoming Firefly game aim that way?
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:56 / 12.12.06
Did Freelancer and its ilk allow you to wander around outside the ship? Could a space game have that kind of first-person perspective, where you wander around the ship you're flying?

Not really in Freelancer. It's be a good addition though. Having to go EVA to open up wrecks and the like.

You can interact with NPCs but it's a pretty limited thing. Ask them a question, get a job, or pay them for wreck/jump hole co-ordinates.

Simple things please my simple mind I guess (which is why I'm still playing Urban Dead long after most Barbeloids have dropped it).

Mind you, I'd guess that Urban Dead falls under this thread subject heading doesn't it?
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
14:26 / 12.12.06
If you like that, you'll love Eve Online, which I managed to get pretty much lost in for a month. It's sooo life-intensive though, if you want to get anywhere. It's like having a second job.
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
15:01 / 12.12.06
Although that said, EVE does suffer from the fact that all the planets, though beautiful, are essentially big blocks in the sky that you can't land on or even approach (closer than 5km, when you inexplicably 'bounce' back to the top of the atmosphere) and you never see anything but the outside of your ship. The stations are beautifully animated tableux, but aren't interactive apart from the usual mess of market, storage and fitting screens.

If I ever found a truly interactive game with the same idea as EVE, I'd get properly lost in it (i.e. land on planets, land on stations, walk around inside your own ship). I don't think it's tenable without some kind of random generation (can you imagine hand-coding just a planet the size of, say, the moon in GTA-esque detail?), and as noted, I think that would lead to both miles of relatively featureless, repetitive landscape and it taking hours to get anywhere. Nice to dream.
 
 
Quantum
18:20 / 13.12.06
The perfect game would be Eve with planets full of cities you could explore, like GTA with aliens and jetpacks, so you could either fly round space fighting pirates, or try to take over Omicron Persei V with your armies Risk-style, or do secret agent missions or first person shooters on Earth, like Star Wars, combining different types of games- ooh and you could time travel too so you could go and fight real pirates...
Ah well. Never mind.
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
20:02 / 13.12.06
You know, from what I've seen, server hosted, persistent games will eventually reach this level of complexity, or close to it. EVE, which is a single running instance and is VAST, is getting there, but there's definitely a repetitive feel to it. Perhaps there will be some emerging use of self-evolving software, with areas that receive high player traffic blending and 'mating' to create new, more interesting places to hang out, fight wars, fly. I seem to remember an article a while back in 'Game', the UK magazine, which talked about the perfect game. It was some sort of bizarre sandbox/RTS/FPS/trading hybrid, and it sounded awesome.

Back on topic, what do folk think about Mercenaries? I got into it for a while, but recently every time I try to give it another go I get kind of bored. Or stuck. I think the world just isn't big enough. Gosh, how expectations have changed since I pootled about in 'Alex the Kid' back on the Master System...
 
 
lekvar
20:22 / 13.12.06
Another game that fits into this genre is Postal 2. You spend a work week as Postal Dude and live his life in a sleepy-but-heavily-armed suburb in Arizona, getting milk, picking up your paycheck, picking up the laundry, pissing on cops, and committing mass genocide. The tag-line of the game is that it's only as violent as you are, but that's not entirely true, as you're frequently put into situations you have to kill your way out of (the first time I played I tried not to kill unless it was absolutely necessary. I ended up doing a lot of killing)

When you get right down to it, Postal 2 is a lot like Grand Theft Auto, but without all of that pesky plot getting in the way. You have progressively more freedom to move about as new areas are unlocked, and with new areas come new character types to encounter and kill. I'm a bit ashamed to admit that I've played this game though, as it's pretty reprehensible on many many levels. It revels in many unsavory stereotypes.
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
22:28 / 13.12.06
Really? You just wander around? And what kind of situations require the killing? Muggings? Cold latte?
 
 
Triplets
02:23 / 14.12.06
Lekvar likes his coffee HOT and his bullets FIRING
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
03:15 / 14.12.06
I've had the guilty pleasure of Postal 2 too, Lekvar. You're in shit company.
 
 
Thorn Davis
07:35 / 14.12.06
I've spent enough time on Postal 2 to mark me out as educationally subnormal. Initially I think I tried to pretend I was playing it in a spirit of detached curiosity, but once I'd spent seven hours wondering around tazering schoolgirls and watching them collapse in a puddle of their own urine, I realised that the answer to the question "What kind of thuggish moron would get a kick out of this horrible game" was "me".

That's kind of one thing I don't like about sandbox games, is how revealing they are. I'll spend a lot of time defending computer games as an evolving art form with possibilities that exist outside more established media and a unique opportunity to explore ethical and intellectual conundrums, but put me in a world where anything is possible and I'll just wander round blankly trying to find new ways to kill people.

In fairness to Postal 2, it did have a level of beserk imagination to it that set it aside from the majority of FPSs. It came out at a time when shooters basically all consisted of exactly the same levels (usually, one set in a snowy wasteland, an under ground base, some kind of everyday environment and always a dam that you had to storm with a sniper rifle, a pistol and a knife), so having missions where you were dressed as a gimp and had to escape a human abbatoir populated by rednecks were at least different from the norm.
 
 
Janean Patience
08:16 / 14.12.06
Thorn: Postal 2 came out at a time when shooters basically all consisted of exactly the same levels (usually, one set in a snowy wasteland, an under ground base, some kind of everyday environment and always a dam that you had to storm with a sniper rifle, a pistol and a knife)

Now you stop being mean to Return to Castle Wolfenstein. I enjoyed that game. yes, it was foolish of them to leave the pedestrian entrance to the dam open to visitors. But they were Nazis. Doing very, very stupid things was inherent in Nazism so it was bound to overwhelm their natural German organisational skills occasionally.

And I punished them for it. I punished them good. Nazi scum. There's no better enemy. Though it should have finished with me fighting Hitler in a robot suit.
 
 
Janean Patience
09:11 / 14.12.06
Dave: If I ever found a truly interactive game with the same idea as EVE, I'd get properly lost in it (i.e. land on planets, land on stations, walk around inside your own ship). I don't think it's tenable without some kind of random generation (can you imagine hand-coding just a planet the size of, say, the moon in GTA-esque detail?), and as noted, I think that would lead to both miles of relatively featureless, repetitive landscape and it taking hours to get anywhere.

That's the sandbox trade-off, right there. Do you have an immense playing area and the accompanying featureless, repetitive landscapes? Or do you set boundaries and try to improve it on a smaller scale, as with GTA, where there's something different to look at on every street? Not implying that it's all exciting, but it's all distinct and provides a backdrop for the player's self-generated narrative.

I played Damocles, the sequel to Mercenary, almost to death. On that you could leave a planet and visit another, and each sector had a building in it. They were from only a few different designs and mostly empty but it created the feeling of a solar system. To put a San Andreas on each one we're taking about a massive amount of computing power. Would it be possible to do it as a kind of Second Life, where the players build and maintain their own environments so the memory and power are distributed? Or are you just going to end up with a very haphazard gaming environment run by cliques? It's only when you're deep into GTA you realise the intelligence that's gone into designing the city or the state, the escape routes and vantage points and the rest. Without a Chief Designer would a sandbox game work?

Back on topic, what do folk think about Mercenaries? I got into it for a while, but recently every time I try to give it another go I get kind of bored. Or stuck. I think the world just isn't big enough.

I loved it at first, and it immediately took pole position on the small rotating list of games I play. Less than halfway through, I'm sort of stuck and quite uninvolved. The enviroment's nice enough in terms of atmosphere but there's little to explore. When you do, what you'll find is a base full of North Koreans that may or may not have a number card in it, depending which suit you're on. The choice of sniper rifle/RPG is restrictive, and you run out of health far too often with no way of topping it up other than another supply drop.

I'll keep at it because the potential's great. Getting a tank in a GTA game is the ultimate; getting a tank in Mercenaries is just the start, because there are so many other tanks and guys with rocket launchers and helicopters. I do seem to have hit a bit of a wall with it, though. I can put my other current favourites, Doom 3 or Otogi 2, on for half an hour and achieve something. With Mercenaries it's a longer game and I still feel I should be putting in more time.
 
 
lekvar
00:25 / 15.12.06
I'd like to see large, perpetual, exploreable worlds become a standard game feature (where applicable, of course) much as online multiplayer has become a selling point, no matter how badly it has been implemented. I don't buy many games so I like to have as much freedom within the gameworld as possible.

The difference between sandbox games and, well, other games became really apparent to me when I was playing Stubbs the Zombie: Rebel without a Pulse. The game was enjoyable (you play a brain-eating zombie, what's not to love?), but every level has a beginning, an objective, and a more-or-less straight path betwixt the two. The game would be insisting that I shamble forth to accomplish some mission when all I wanted to do was hang around and munch some brains, build a zombie army and rampage for a while.

And I'm so gald that I'm not the only one here who's played Postal 2! I've wanted to mention it on a number of occasions, but it's so... I don't know. I've described it to frieds of mine as "liberal porn." I feel dirty when I play it, but I play it anyways.
 
 
Char Aina
17:26 / 18.12.06
The perfect game would be Eve with planets full of cities you could explore, like GTA with aliens and jetpacks, so you could either fly round space fighting pirates, or try to take over Omicron Persei V with your armies Risk-style, or do secret agent missions or first person shooters on Earth, like Star Wars, combining different types of games- ooh and you could time travel too so you could go and fight real pirates...
Ah well. Never mind.


i had an idea(possibly while less than sober) about the development of these games. when the levels are designed for one, they could be designed to be compatible with many other games.
depending on which game you load first, you get the physics, the 'rules' of that release, and then you can move freely between cities, or discs.

that way you coudl take a flight to liberty city or vice city from san andreas. clearly they are set in different eras, but i don't think anyone would mind.

you could release a new disc, adding cities to the available criminal empire, and you could release engines, addding to the games you can play in those worlds.

imagine a tony hawk release that was a GTA add-on as well as a game in itself, one that allowed you to skate the hills of liberty city and also gave you several skateparks on the edge of town that you could terrosise. imagine a zombie add-on that infested vice city with the undead. you could do similar things with planetary exploration, buying worlds for the conquering as a new game to add to your space conquest game. if you want to warp to a new solar system, you'd need to buy a new game.
if you land on earth, you could visit the london of the getaway, or the various locations in any number of other games.*

i dont think it would be too much of an impostion to expect people to pay for it, as the development costs involved would be huge.

i'd certainly buy into it, especially if the experince was customisable. i'd add zombies and skating, but i'd probably dinghy 3rd person puzzle shooters.
you'd do what you wanted, and buy worlds that you wanted to explore.

with the memory now plausibly available it would be simple enough to store world after world on your hard drive and, apart from the faff of changing disks the first time you need a world, and the hassle of worlds being off limits or nonexistent until you had the relevant disk, i think it would be unadulterated awesome.

i'd love to have a few game engines to choose from, and i'd love to have some activate by surprise.

you could have a zombie patch that you swith on, but it could have a preference setting where the apocalypse occurs when you least expect it. y'know. as they do.
you could have skaters flying by you while you drive by a rival gang, and maybe even talent scouts who spot you while you pul of an especially impressive stair rail.
you could kill your opponents in a race to make it easier to win, maybe missing it because you were in prison.
you could take charge of the military and find yourself given the task of subduing a particularly wanted criminal on the streets of liberty city, or of stemming te tide of the nazis from beyond the grave.

i feel like there already loads of maps made, and it seems a shame to spend all that time building a vast world with only one purpose, seeing as it takes years to develop a game.

clearly this all requires a shitload of planning and forethought, and no small amount of 'futureproofing' to make it work, but i think it is possible, and might well be where people will push the industry to go soon anyway.


it would certainly make sense to write some code that links the GTA games, or to remix the available constructs to interconnect. there could be a plane journey/train ride level built that you can play while the new world loads up. heck, you could even fly the damn plane, or maybe hijack an airliner. take a boatride down the coast maybe. enage in some piracy on the way.

i'd certainly be up for some hitman-evasion on the sleeper to the west coast, or whatever they can throw at us.
you could take a deck of cards and gamble with passengers to pass the time.

if all this becomes online then the worlds and engines can be added to a central server, and all the minigames could be against other players if you want them to be.

you could evade a hitman played by someone else, win actual money at poker, or steal another players car/skateboard. the cops you kill might be players too.

the list is endless.

i think the only real barrier to this so far has been that it would have required a ridiculous amount of data storage.
now that we have that covered, all it takes is the time to program it and the balls to do so.

i realsie WoW is a bit liek what i have in mind, but it still only has one engine and a failry limited world.
i'm thinking more like a catalogue of movies you can roam through, sort of like in last action hero, only much, much cooler.

robocop in the antarctic fighting the thing!
bam margera on the run from the undead!
james bond going offworld!
legolas in new york!
batman against the martians!
silent hill skate jam!


am i insane?
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
18:26 / 18.12.06
Dude, that is beautiful.
 
 
Quantum
19:04 / 18.12.06
If the games were modular and compatible they could slot together... you could buy the engines for RPG/FPS/RTS or whatever and then different 'skins' for your preferred genre, zombie, sci-fi, fantasy, whatever. You could download a vice city skeleton and mix in a Quake interface, then clothe it all in Cthulhu style Arkham backgrounds. For example.
Like the computer game version of GURPS basically, that would rule.
 
 
Char Aina
19:26 / 18.12.06
that's kinda where i was going with it, yeah.
i don't see why the polygons can't be recycled.

the only issue would seem to be the physics of teh environment.
in a skate game the edges have to be coded as grindable, for example. some charatcers in fantsay games would be too big for some vehicles in GTA, and you'd get outiside-the-box glitches where the troll's head poked through the roof without breaking it.

as long as you have those issues coded for, and futureproofed against with modular rulesets and maps, you'd be laughing.
 
 
Char Aina
19:35 / 18.12.06
basically i like what you suggest, q.
i'd prefer it to be more like i was sksting through silent hill, though. or like i was the flying darth vader's imperial shuttle into dulles airport.
i don't so much want the look to change as the actual environment and with it the shape of the game.

i realise that silent hill isnt the most skateable terrain, buti wouldnt want pools added on every spare patch of ground. all i want is any rail to be attackable. some coudl even be breakable.
i think we'd be looking at a lot of those wooden rails that every skater has sessioned at least once in their life, only to be rather shocked when they crack through, fucking up your 'rolling trick bonus'(or your face).

the challenge would be finding the lines.

like, would my spiderman be fucked in vice city? or would i manage to find ways to websling the low buildings?
can i actually fly a plane through a skyscraper floor and come out the other side? i'd hope so but i'd expect it to be really difficult.

the real life buildings werent designed for that shit, and i think that is what is missing in many games. too often you strategise about what seems probable in the environment, and you lose some of the sense of freedom to do whatever you want to do as a result.

tony hawk is a good example.
everything skatable, even chainlink fences.
it makes it a cartoon of a game, and one that very quickly stops feeling like a simulation of skating.

i want some shit to be almost totally unskatable.

the magic lies in the almost.
that's the shit you try three hundred times and land once, and then try four hundred more, trying in vain to pull it one more time.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:17 / 18.12.06
tokisk- I'd give both my legs for that game.

Fuck, if it existed, I really wouldn't need them anymore.
 
 
Quantum
20:59 / 18.12.06
Well the joy of it would be that you could configure modules so you get to skate the death star, I could make my Eve/Jedi crossover and online we could staple the games together. My lightsabre wielding protagonist could ferry you in through tie fighter squadrons, we fight through dozens of stormtroopers to the high point in the station (Vader's temple) then skate like fury to get out while being chased by Darth and speeder droids and record the lot to sell to the intergalactic media, jackass style.
Or you make GTA: Road Rage in Rivendell and mow down wood elves in a v8.
 
  

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