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Hakim Bey, Pederasty, and the difference between the Work and the Author.

 
  

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nighthawk
14:03 / 04.12.06
I mean, the whole point about the Spectacle is that, under capitalism, our desires are recuperated and turned against us. You can't just decide to opt out of this, or immunise your particular subculture against the wider social relations that make up capitalism. The idea that one can carve out an autonomous hole in the Spectacle without changing social relations themselves is a complete misrepresentation of the best theoretical work done by people in the situationist milieu.
 
 
illmatic
14:39 / 04.12.06
The idea that one can carve out an autonomous hole in the Spectacle without changing social relations themselves is a complete misrepresentation of the best theoretical work done by people in the situationist milieu.

Bey himself seems to have come round to that point of view in his later work, I don't think he's particularly stuck on the TAZ. From this interview (originally published in the intro to Millenium):

And the way I would express it now is that in TAZ and the Radio Sermonettes I was really proposing a third position, a position that was neither Capitalism nor Communism. This is basically, you could say, something that all Anarchist philosophy does. In this period I was telling it in my own way. It's a neither/nor position. It's a third position. Now, however, when you come to think about it, there are not two worlds any more or two possibilities or two contending opposing forces. There is in fact only one world, and that's the world of global capital. The world order, the world market, too-late capitalism, whatever you wanna call it, is now alone and triumphant. It's determinedly triumphant. It knows it's the winner although really it's only the winner by default, I think. And it tends to transform the world in its image. And that image, of course, is a monoculture based on Hollywood, on Disney, on commodities, on the destruction of the environment in every sense, from trees to imaginations, and the turning of all that into commodity,... So what we're looking at is one single world. Obviously this one single world is not going to go without its revolution, it's not going to go without its opposition, And in fact it's around the word revolution that my thoughts are circulating now, because it seems to me that anarchists and anti-authoritarians in general can no longer occupy this third position; because how can you occupy a third position when there is no longer a second position? We can't talk about the Third World any more for the one reason that there's no second world. So even this third world as it used to be is now simply just the slums of the one world. It's just the no-go zone of that one single unified world of Capital. Obviously the communists are not going to step back into the position of opposition. Political Communism has completely shot its load, it's made itself look bad, taste bad in the mouth of history. No-one is calling on authoritarian Marxism to step back into this position of opposition. So where is this opposition supposed to come from? In my mind, first of all, this implies that if we're no longer trying to occupy a third position outside of this dichotomy, then WE are the opposition. Whether we know it or like it or not, we are the opposition.
 
 
nighthawk
14:57 / 04.12.06
Umm. I'll read the interview when I get home, but I don't see the relation? He seems to be making a silly point about the fall of the Berlin wall, and demarcating a dodgy three-way opposition between capital, communism=authoritarian marxism, and a homogenous position he's calling 'anarchism'. He's talking about the role he thinks 'anarchism' must play, not how it should set about fulfilling that role?
 
 
illmatic
15:07 / 04.12.06
I read him as saying, with the change in opposition to capital ism is that the TAZ (your "carv(ing) out an autonomous hole in the Spectacle without changing social relations") is no longer relevant in the same way. Re-reading the interview actually reminds me of why I liked the idea of the TAZ in the first place - because it doesn't rest on the idea of a wide-reaching and permanent revolution.
 
 
nighthawk
15:16 / 04.12.06
See, I see him as saying: when I wrote T.A.Z. etc., the political spectrum was dominated by two antagonistic positions, communism and capitalism. I was trying to offer a third position. Now that communism has 'shot its load', there are only two positions left.

He's not saying anything at all about the content of T.A.Z., just reflecting on the role he sees his particular ideology playing post-1989. Basically, now its Bey's form of anarchism against late capitalism - every other radical politics has been discredited by the fall of the Berlin wall. Just seems like more woefully shallow analysis to me...


Apologies in advance, but I can;t resist taking a cheap-shot:

(D. Ender): Do you see any tangible effects of this lack of opposition in the USA?

(H. Bey): Oh yes, absolutely. The most tangible thing, and I think really the thing which gave me the clue to think about this, is precisely a psychic condition. One could point to lots of economic or social factors, but above all I feel a psychic malaise that is something quite new, and, well, a few years ago I began noticing in public speaking that there was a great deal less response on the part of audiences.


So, society's problems are a 'psychic condition' because audiences find Bey uninspiring?! The man really is ridiculously self-important.
 
 
nighthawk
15:22 / 04.12.06
Re-reading the interview actually reminds me of why I liked the idea of the TAZ in the first place - because it doesn't rest on the idea of a wide-reaching and permanent revolution.

Just out of interest: is that because you find the idea of 'a wide-reaching and permanent revolution' repugnant, or just unrealistic?
 
 
illmatic
15:32 / 04.12.06
That is a cheap shot mate, you're misreading him totally.

He's describing something I can completely recognise in my life and experience. It's a reaction to the closure of possibilites that has accompanied the dominance of the Right and freemarket thinking over the last 20 years. The mainstream Left at least used to offer the possibility of difference - currently, with both parties fighting over the centreground, but in thrall to the same ideology, this sense has completely disappeared off the menu. If the possibilty of difference disappears, I think a degree of "malaise" is quite understandable.
 
 
illmatic
15:34 / 04.12.06
In response to your other question - unrealistic. Though I'm aware there's more to Marxist/leftist critque than that.
 
 
illmatic
15:38 / 04.12.06
Incidentally, the "closure of possibilies" this has been something that's been brought home rather forcefully to me in teaching - having to stop a class and run through what the basic differences are between left and right, because my students find the main political parties so utterly indistingushable.
 
 
nighthawk
15:40 / 04.12.06
The mainstream Left at least used to offer the possibility of difference - currently, with both parties fighting over the sense of ground, but in thrall to the same ideology, this sense has completely disappeared off the menu. If the possibilty of difference disappears, I think a degree of "malaise" is quite understandable.

Yeah sure, but Bey's not part of the mainstream left is he? Surely people should be lapping up his alternative programme. He's projecting his own disatifaction onto his audience, and his audience's disatisfaction (an audience likely made up of a very small section of the broader community) onto society at large.

I'm not arguing with the idea that people are increasingly apathetic when it comes to traditional Politics; I am questioning the claim that the problem is fundamentally psychic, not social or economic, because sections of the activist community in the US don't jump on Bey's ideas.
 
 
illmatic
15:54 / 04.12.06
I'm a bit puzzled by your reading to be honest.

I am questioning the claim that the problem is fundamentally psychic, not social or economic, because sections of the activist community in the US don't jump on Bey's ideas.

He's saying any problem/shift in attitude is social/political, surely? "Psychic malaise" might be how it manifests but hey, he's an old hippie. I don't read it as his statement as disatisfaction that people aren't jumping for his ideas either - I think he's talking about something quite different.
 
 
nighthawk
16:32 / 04.12.06
Sorry, I'm probably not being very clear. One of the problems I have with 'lifestylist' politics is that it projects the needs and activities of a small section of the population who identify themselves as 'sub-cultural' onto society at large. Frequently, they then say things like 'liberation must happen primarily on the psychic level'.

I read Bey making a similar move in that interview. Rather than reflecting on the inadequacies of his own ideology, he bases his analysis of society at large on the reaction of his audiences. I don't know much about Bey's public speaking programmes, but I imagine he mainly speaks at meetings of activist and new-agey types - sorry, I don't know the proper term, I don't mean that pejoratively. This amplifies existing problems with his ideology. Not only does he assume that the potential for political change in society is encapsulated by the sort of people who come to see him speak - the progressive subcultural vanguard who will consume society from within. He also decides that the underwhelming reaction to his speeches is because of a 'psychic malaise', not because of the flaws of his own ideology.

Obviously I'm biased, but I can't see Bey's politics speaking to anyone outside of a particular subcultural mileu. Out of interest: you said you teach kids - how do you think they would react to Bey's politics? What would they take from it? What would they reject?

The worst thing is that Bey is touching on something important here. In my experience, all but the most nutty of conspiracy theorists are at least vaguely in touch with political reality - if Bey wasn't, I wouldn't be wasting so much time talking about him here. The problem is that by insisting that the problem is primarily psychic, he implicitly divides society up into the psychologically liberated vs. us unconverted masses, and assumes the the potential for anarchism is located entirely in the former group. I agree that society is divided, but it falls into those people whose needs are met by the current order of things, who are quite happy to see things stay as they are; and those of us whose needs are frustrated, or blocked. All his talk about 'psychic malaise' just smudges any concrete analysis of material conditions, and leads him to ignore the real locus of serious social change - the class of people whose desires are necessarily frustrated by capitalism - in favour of a small subcultural elite.
 
 
+#'s, - names
17:13 / 04.12.06
I think these dudes are a bit confused by all of this.
 
 
nighthawk
17:41 / 04.12.06
Oops, I only meant to preview that while I had my tea... My point was a cheap shot in so far as it targetted Bey's own ego, rather than just commenting on his inability to reflect critically on his own politics in the face of an unreceptive public. I'm not saying that Bey is having a tantrum because noone is listening; but I do think that comment reflects some major flaws in his own analysis, which I've tried to outline above.

Perhaps I can put it this way. Bey sees the Spectacle as something that can be avoided by a sort of psychological reconfiguration; alienation as something to be overcome prior to any change in society itself. As I understand him, he thinks his brand of spiritualism, TAZs, etc, help people to break through their alienation, and are thus a step on the road to anarchism proper.

I see this as little more than an insidious version of 'false consciousness'. It presents your average person as a doped, passive sheep, whose desires are dangerously normal unlike their clued up sub-cultural contemporaries, when in fact our desires (for free-time, for material comfort, for autonomy, for success) are already politically charged, the point being that the Spectacle recuperates these desires up to a point and frustrates them in the process. Material comfort comes in the form of commodities, success means making lots of money, and so on. This isn't false consciousness, something people wrongly believe - its true within capitalist social relations, and people are perfectly rational for aspiring to it. The point is that capitalism cannot meet the aspirations of all these people - even ignoring the material impossibility, such aspirations only make sense if there is a class of people who fail to meet them, against whom one can seem to be a 'success', etc. That's before we even begin to think about how capital depends on labour... One of the basic points of Marxian thought is that capitalism needs these people, but they don't need it.

So, ignoring the Spectacle is irrational and pointless - you'll just end up being recuperated, like every subculture from the 60s to the present. Capital is perfectly capable of embracing and integrating difference. I think any decent radical politics should bluntly insist that people's needs are met, something that is impossible under capitalism. What Bey identifies as a 'psychic malaise' in society is just people realising that traditional politics does not make much difference one way or the other regarding their material needs. And given that Bey's primary audience is the activist ghetto, I'd like to think that the cool reception at his talks might mean that they are also beginning to realise the inadequacies of lifestylist politics. Then again, I saw Chomsky speak recently, and he really is pretty dull these days; maybe the same is true of Bey...
 
 
illmatic
17:57 / 04.12.06
This to your posts above the last one...

As I read it, he’s reading differences over time – from point x (that being whenever he started speaking) to the present (the present of that interview, 1994, I think) – he’s noting a difference in the attitudes of people at these two points. This difference is reinforced by the same thing being noticed by other speakers (he mentions Chomsky saying the same thing). He also address differences over space – later in the interview, he mentions meeting activists from other countries who have a complete different attitude and seem to him a lot more inspired.

Obviously I'm biased, but I can't see Bey's politics speaking to anyone outside of a particular subcultural mileu. Out of interest: you said you teach kids - how do you think they would react to Bey's politics? What would they take from it? What would they reject?

Jeezus, there’s a question. Until you’ve taught, you don’t realise what kids of that age are like. To generalise horribly, they’re very apolitical, and don’t have a sense of political process as being anything that they could get involved in, or has any relevance to them. At least the kids I teach anyway. They’d be concerned about obvious injustices and inequality but most of them wouldn’t connect that with politics. Something as removed from their daily concerns as Bey’s work? No interest whatsoever.

Now, I do think that this is actually a valid criticism of his work, the one I’ve agreed most with out of anything in the thread (by you and Diz). I can agree with you that as presented it appeals to a small sub-cultural group and the exoticism of his associated ideas adds to this (it’s a thing that attracts me, personally and I know that my tastes might not be shared). I agree entirely that his politics doesn’t address people’s material situation and needs in the way the way that traditional Leftism proposes. However, I don’t think that this is necessairily the only – or even the best - solution to political problems (as I said, TAZ came about precisely because of the shortcomings of traditional Left/Anarchist solutions ie the perpetual revolution that never comes) and I appreciate his blending of the realms of subjectivity and inspiration into political thinking.
 
 
illmatic
18:28 / 04.12.06
This is getting well off of Bey's stuff, but I'm interested anyway. You said I think any decent radical politics should bluntly insist that people's needs are met, something that is impossible under capitalism

Firstly, to what degree do you think this is possible, under any system? To what degree do you think it is likely? And secondly, what should we do in the interim, until these conditions arise or are brought about? (This relates directly to the idea of the TAZ - even though Bey has pretty much moved away from it).
 
 
nighthawk
18:44 / 04.12.06
Firstly, to what degree do you think this is possible, under any system? And secondly, what should we do in the interim, until these conditions arise or are brought about?

Hah! Busted. No, to be serious, is it ok if I PM you about this? I'm not really up to laying out my politics for Barbelith to demolish, if only because I struggle with these exact questions pretty much all the time, so I don't have ready answers.

Failing that, new thread? I wouldn't want my tentative responses to undermine what I've said about Bey in this thread - I think my criticisms stand regardless of my own conception of what makes for decent radical politics...
 
 
nighthawk
20:30 / 04.12.06
I've just noticed that one of the Monsieur Dupont articles I linked to above contains a bit of critique of lifestylism. I still rather like it as a piece of writing, even though I don't agree with everything they say. Here's the link again - Diz, there's some good criticism of the idiot brand of 'serious' anarchism that has unfortunately characterised your experience.

I'm going to quote one part here, if only to show that Bey and co. don't have a monopoly on imaginative metaphor in the midst of political critique! They are comparing contemporary capitalism to a motorway...

The parable is also the paradigm. Isn't driving your car on a motorway a bit like making love to a beautiful woman?

A bit like shopping, a bit like a maternity ward, a bit like filling in forms, a bit like education?

The motorway is a sophisticated conveyor belt, a factory process that produces both destination and a high velocity turnover of packaged units all done up in their cars like unique and expensive chocolates. A bit like eating, a bit like having an operation, a bit like emotions and stupid political solutions? A bit like dying, a bit like clicking on your mouse, a bit like the fall of civilisations, a bit like reading novels? Appearing here, ending there, distance and the time to cover that distance. Hold-ups, contra-flows, accident blackspots, tail-backs.

It seems you can and you cannot travel the same motorway twice.

All the movement and the events borne of movement: disease, ideas, accidents, disasters, military manoeuvres, and money (always money), getting to work, to the out of town, off on our hols, the products rolling off the line, the waste products dragged off to the dump, all that and the motorway itself untouched, ever present like a black angel's roar, like money washing over us; everything is integrated into the economy as a commodity, even our underpants. The motorway is the site of movement, just as the factory is the site of production, from a single of its products you may deduce the capitalist economy, from one car you will understand distribution.
The motorway does not move but gives form to every possible movement from the smooth flow to the grinding snarl-up.

Moving and non-movement, the motorway conditions all possible phenomena even that which reflects critically upon it (anti-globalisers hop on aeroplanes to attend far away conferences against aeroplanes, but to travel by mule would be mere conceit). Yes you may alter your car, reform it, change it for another, try alternative fuels, you can transform your driving habits, you can pledge yourself to the cause of safety; at the level of your ownership you are free to do anything, but.... nothing of what you choose has any significance to anyone but yourself, all choices are conditioned. And ethical choices, even if they are shared with a number of others remain at the level of ethics, there is no true organisation in it, it is not a politics, it can have no impact on the nature of the motorway.

The rules for the road are set by the road and not its users, there is imposition not consensus.

The conditioned response, the effect, the result cannot reach round and alter the forces determining its presence or its character. The road drives your car, it's in your unconscious, you can't turn it off, you hear it on the other side of the hill, rubber spinning water. Nobody can stop it because nobody chose it, it is a fact, the world we live in. In the same way a television programme critical of the psycho-sociological effects of television ultimately ends by affirming the amazing versatility of the medium, it certainly cannot turn the box off and release people to do something less boring instead. Television and the motorway, unlike the Roman Emperors, tolerate, even encourage, dissent.

Outside the metaphor anarchists can refuse details and go on demonstrations, they can change their life, they can try to will the future into existence, they can go vegan, they can develop viable alternatives, can proclaim themselves against burger bars and coffee shops, they can develop green, organic, co-operative ventures. They can attempt to control every detail of their life and make it as alternative as is possible but the system itself remains out of reach, capital is untouched. When they're saving the environment by recycling their rubbish someone else is making a profit from their unpaid labour. When they're printing leaflets and shouting slogans for the holy cause someone less scrupulous and more organised is turning that to their political advantage.

Within the metaphor, anarchists can disrupt local traffic with their critical masses, they can park their cars on the hard shoulder and go and find themselves in the adjacent field of sugarbeet, nobody notices the sparks that fly off into the dark periphery. They can drive their tractors slowly, they can hold parties on the tarmac, they can dig up chunks of what they hate, they can make other drivers feel very, very annoyed by their pranks and provocations. But all of this is second level voluntarism (I am determined by the road therefore I rebel against the road), it is not deep down structural, it's at the level of 'Starbucks bad, Fairtrade good', it's secondary and not right in there, touching the heart of it. The best second level structure for political reflection on economic forces is democracy, but at all times in its history democracy has shown itself to be controlled by and not in control of, the economy. Those 'anarchists' advocating municipalism and 'real' democracy should take note of this failure.
 
 
diz
07:30 / 05.12.06
They usually base their politics on organising around people's felt needs, acting collectively in an attempt to make sure they are met, not telling the people around them that they need to embrace a particular subculture if they want to be saved (or if they want to avoid being consumed).

I think we may be talking around the same sorts of things, maybe. Sort of. I think of "lifestyle" radicalism as being something covering the broad spectrum of activities from organizing homeschool co-ops to developing intentional communities to the explosion of knitting and other home crafts groups to the Burning Man scene/movement. It's focused not on changing the overall structure of the society, but rather on carving out a social sphere within that system where people consciously adopt new cultural values which enable them to function as a community with different values than those pushed by the dominant society.

I don't really know what to say to this. I find the idea that a 'shift away from overt political liberation' is a good thing absolutely mind-blowing.

I should probably come out right now and make it clear that I don't believe humanity has much, if any, control over its own political and economic conditions, and it hasn't since at least the point where we developed agriculture, possibly since we developed complex language and tool use. I'm something of a technological determinist, and I believe that in any given place and time humanity more or less has to play the hand it's dealt as far as overall political and economic structures. We can play our hand well, or we can play it poorly, but we generally can't ask for new cards. I believe that conscious, intentional political action aimed at changing the fundamental basis of our economy and our political establishments is mostly futile in most cases most of the time. In our case, we're pretty much stuck with global capitalism whether we like it or not, and we'll be stuck with it until the next major wave of techonological change, so, yeah, I think a shift away from trying to overthrow it is probably a plus. Political activism is generally a lot of sizzle but no steak. People building new patterns into their daily lives is the opposite.

Maybe I'm in serious need of some poetical terrorism, but I don't think my problems stem from the fact that I'm not psychologically liberated. They're more likely rooted in the fact that I have to spend all day working in a shitty job just to meet my most basic human needs.

Perhaps you'd prefer to be a medieval peasant? Shovelling manure, having your daughters raped by the local baron's son, dying of the plague, etc. I'm not sure when this golden age where people didn't have to do hard, often unpleasant work in order to meet their basic needs was, but boy howdy, when I finally build my time machine I'm going straight there.

All the T.A.Z.s in the world won't change that; nor will what I do for kicks in my spare time.

Nor will anything else. However, you can do things to improve the everyday lives of people within the system, and most of those things which you can do involve nurturing subcultures with values that make people's lives better until they usurp the dominant culture.
 
 
nighthawk
08:13 / 05.12.06
I believe that conscious, intentional political action aimed at changing the fundamental basis of our economy and our political establishments is mostly futile in most cases most of the time.

Yeah, well I'd say that's ahistorical nonsense, much like suggesting this whole discussion comes down to a sensationalist division between medieval peasantry and global capitalism. The world around us has been shaped by classes of people asserting their collective needs: from universal sufferage (see The Vote by Paul Foot for a good account of how this emerged), to the 9-5 working day, the evidence is everywhere. Do you really think that all previous changes in society were just happy accidents resulting from an advance in technology? Even if that were true, technological development isn't something distinct and autonomous from human activity, with an internal logic of its own; the direction technology takes depends on the people controlling it, surely?

And we're back to groups of people and their individual and collective needs... Right now, the interests dictating this development are concerned first and foremost with the maximisation of profit. Maybe you want to say that the demands of capital and the people who benefit most from current social relations are identical with those of humanity as a whole, so things are bound to turn out for the best? If so, we've come a long way from even Bey's politics.
 
 
diz
22:22 / 05.12.06
Yeah, well I'd say that's ahistorical nonsense, much like suggesting this whole discussion comes down to a sensationalist division between medieval peasantry and global capitalism.

It was just an example, countering your complaint about having to work to fulfill your basic needs. Everybody has to work for their basic needs, and they always have, and I suspect that your work life is probably a bit easier, safer, and more fulfilling than most people's jobs throughout human history, and the level of comfort it affords you is higher. Yes, I know, alienated wage labor and blah blah blah. I think that's a tendency to romanticize agricultural labor to an absurd degree.

The world around us has been shaped by classes of people asserting their collective needs:

No, it hasn't. The human rights advances that you're talking about are epiphenomena of technological advances (and I'm using the word "technological" in the broad sense here, including things like bureaucratic structures and trading systems and not just machines).

from universal sufferage

The result of the emerging technologies and economic systems of early capitalism.

to the 9-5 working day

The result of increased productivity brought on in the later stages of industrialization.

Do you really think that all previous changes in society were just happy accidents resulting from an advance in technology?

Yes. More or less.

Even if that were true, technological development isn't something distinct and autonomous from human activity, with an internal logic of its own; the direction technology takes depends on the people controlling it, surely?

Surely not. People are not in control of the evolution of technology. It uses people to advance itself in an evolutionary process, though you could say it's a co-evolutionary process with human memetic evolution and arguably even small-scale genetic evolution.

Right now, the interests dictating this development are concerned first and foremost with the maximisation of profit.

No one's dictating this development, any more than someone planned for fish to start trying to function on land or for primates to start banging on things with sharp rocks. It's just something that happens on its own accord and according to its own set of rules. Evolutionary Pressure A exists. Novel Behavior A (or, if you prefer, Disruptive Technology A) proves to be adaptive in dealing with Evolutionary Pressure A, causing an increase in population and a shift in cultural power dynamics. These shifts cause expansions into new territory, new needs, etc, which we'll call Evolutionary Pressure B. Eventually Novel Behavior/Disruptive Technology B emerges to meet the needs of Evolutionary Pressure B, which leads to another explosion, another rejuggling of the situation and more new territory, and with all of those things comes Evolutionary Pressure C. It's a long-term chain reaction. New technologies emerge in response to needs created by old technologies, which they render obsolete, disrupting and reorienting human society as they go.

The big bad boogeymen in boardrooms are struggling to keep up with it and adapt to it just like everybody else. They're not making it happen. Technology is in the driver's seat - we're just along for the ride.

Maybe you want to say that the demands of capital and the people who benefit most from current social relations are identical with those of humanity as a whole, so things are bound to turn out for the best?

No, they're not bound to do anything. It could very well all end in tears for us, the little evolutionary blip that started with agriculture could very well all fizzle out (meaning, of course, that civilization collapses and we all die). But there's not much we can do about that, other than try to adapt as best as we can to whatever comes.

If so, we've come a long way from even Bey's politics.

Bey's politics in the larger sense tend to be asinine. He's struggling to re-establish some kind of mythic Paleolithic spiritual anarchist golden age, which never existed in the first place and wouldn't work now. However, he has a few good points about the relationship between surveillance/power/knowledge/etc (the whole Foucaultian panopticon trip) and the usefulness of loose DIY ad hoc communities organized around cultural interests to counter those to increase practical everyday freedom.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
23:42 / 05.12.06
Well, this has come a long way from NAMBLA.

Backtracking a moment to think about the TAZ, the reason I and many of my friends read that particular essay in the late 1990's was, I think, the idea that autonomy could exist temporarily and momentarily, 'in the cracks', as it were. Squated artspaces and social centres, actions that relied entirely on a momentary happening before melting back into the 'night -- okay, some of that was romantic guff, but it was also really important to learn how to do for me. While I would love there to be a fullblown global revolution to bring down capitalism, I became quite cynical about the authoritarian left's desire to 'build it', and the assumption that everyone had to 'work together' to make it happen. There was a temporal narrative of progress at work in these ideas that didn't reflect the way I experienced time and events. A Temporary Autonomous Zone is just that -- temporary, fragmentary, here today, gone tomorrow. It might be totally spontaneous. But it's still worth creating, and it can still disrupt the normal order of things by existing, for even a moment. There's a lot of power in that.

Where Bey (and his Murray Bookchin style critics) go really wrong with the TAZ theory is his (and their) assumption that only people involved in shamanism or anarchism or some subcultural 'lifestyle' can access temporary autonomous zones, or make them. I think almost everyone is engaged in making TAZ's, all the time. On the other hand, capitalism requires that people want something outside it, because capitalism requires a frontier (however symbolic or subjective, now that the geographical frontiers are no longer) to consume in order to keep working. So no TAZ is ever 'outside' capitalism; it's always vulnerable to reterritorialization. You can't ever tell if it will work. But you can try.
 
 
nighthawk
05:54 / 06.12.06

[Universal Sufferage:] The result of the emerging technologies and economic systems of early capitalism.


How so? What particular advance in technology allowed Universal Sufferage to emerge in the early 1900s, with an increasingly restricted sufferage the further back one goes?

[9 to 5 day:]The result of increased productivity brought on in the later stages of industrialization.

So the actual strikes etc. by actual human beings that lead to this were irrelevant? Inevitable? Determined in their form, content, and outcome by industrialisation? I'm not sure I understand your point.

But perhaps we shouldn't derail this thread still further... Maybe a Laboratory thread to discuss this:

People are not in control of the evolution of technology. It uses people to advance itself in an evolutionary process, though you could say it's a co-evolutionary process with human memetic evolution and arguably even small-scale genetic evolution.
 
 
nighthawk
06:08 / 06.12.06
Lab Thread
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:31 / 14.02.07
Leaving out the ugly part - Hakim Bey/Peter Lamborn Wilson

(from the above link)

Many of Hakim Bey's best-known anarchist pitches first saw print as paedophile apologies. NAMBLA published his "Association for Ontological Anarchism, communiqué #2" in July-Aug 1986, and a journal called Gayme ran "A Temporary Autonomous Zone" and "Pirate Utopias" in issues of 1993-95, along with his more obscure "Contemplation of the Unbearded."

Bey's best-known book Temporary Autonomous Zone (TAZ) describes spiritual zones in which anything goes, where the oppressive rules of the outside society need not interfere with what feels good to do. I realise that many honest people have read TAZ without taking any sleazy impression from it. I hope they'll forgive me for pointing out that paedophiles say these same things to children. In his essay "Obsessive Love" (Moorish Science Monitor, Vol. 7, #5, Summer 1995), in which he pretends to be quite the classical scholar, he talks about ancient religious views on romantic and obsessive love. "The Greco-Egypto-Islamic ferment adds a pederastic [i.e. paedophile] element... the ideal woman of romance is neither wife nor concubine but someone in the forbidden category..." He uses the term "spiritual alchemy" for witnessing the "Devine Beloved in certain beautiful boys," and remarks that, "since all homosexuality is forbidden in Islamic law, a boy-loving sufi has no 'safe' category for sensual realisation."

In fact, one of the commonest defence lawyerish lines about paedophilia is how "the Greeks did it," or how incredibly well Michael Jackson sings and dances; or how some long-dead and noteworthy author was also was in the habit of boning the baby.
 
 
This Sunday
21:20 / 26.03.07
Y'know, I knew Peter L Wilson back in my youth, corresponded by letter quite a bit, and he was never anything but decent. I mean humanly decent. And open, and interesting, and willing to treat children as y'know maybe being actually intelligent enough to be involved in a conversation once in awhile. Which is basically to say, I don't know that he was running about groping every kid that passed him by or something, which early parts of the thread seem to suggest or approach.

And, seriously, if you know any children who - or as children, yourselves - never looked at or thought something dirty, or engaged in what might be considered sexual(ized) activities... you still have to admit it's very unusual.

Which is not to incite everyone to go run out and rape/seduce/coerce-into-strange-photoplays the nearest preteen. (This post is going to get some weird googling, I just know it.)
 
  

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