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Thomas Pynchon: Against the Day

 
  

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Tsuga
12:30 / 26.11.06
I noticed a few other people commenting that they were reading this as well, so I thought it may be worth starting a thread to discuss it while doing so. So far, I can't say much, but do the Chums remind anyone else of the crew of Star Trek Next Generation?
The New York Times has two reviews out, one glowing by Liesl Schillinger, and a total slam by Michiko Kakutani. Go figure.
I'm sure like any of his books there will be wildly varying opinions on the quality, but I've found even at his worst there can be moments of sublime writing. At his best, well... it's just the best.
 
 
Dusto
17:57 / 26.11.06
Yeah, I'm quite enjoying it. I actually respect Michiko Kakutani and Laura Miller (at Salon.com, who also slammed the book) pretty much above any other reviewers, but in this case I'm going to have to disagree with their assessments. My only problem so far at all is that I'm 200 pages in and no central character has really emerged. Gravity's Rainbow had a lot of side-characters, and Slothrop disappeared for long periods of time, but I always felt he was at the center of the novel. With Vineland, I thought the central character was going to be Zoyd, then Prairie, then Frenesi, then DL and Takeshi, and I never quite decided for sure, but I always at least thought I'd found the center. Here I'm feeling a little lost. But that's okay. I mean, there are plenty of local pleasures despite not being able to focus on the global.

The Chums actually have reminded me of old school Star Trek a little bit, but I hadn't thought of the Next Generation. My favorite joke so far: the Russian named Padzhitnoff who drops four-block segments of masonry from the sky.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:58 / 26.11.06
I think I'm buying it tomorrow. But I probably won't start reading it until next week. But I'm fairly sure it will rock.
 
 
Raw Norton
03:20 / 29.11.06
I got off to a pretty rip-roaring start on the book, but will pretty much have to put it down for a couple of weeks until my finals are done with.

I'd agree with Dusto that the tone of both those reviews are surprisingly negative. The NYT had a different review in the Sunday Book Review, this one by Liessl Schillinger, that's more in line with my feelings about the book. To wit: this book feels surprisingly readable to be Pynchon. Maybe it's because at this point I'm pretty well-practiced in reading Pynchon, and I no longer make "beginner's mistakes" like expecting plot threads to be soon resolved--or even resumed, at least--or for characters to remain in the story with some consistency. With ATD, however, it feels like Pynchon made a consciously reader-friendly effort to introduce the cast of major characters pretty much early on in the book, and the organization of the book into five "parts" seems to have the effect of keeping everyone's plotlines moving roughly in synch.

I don't mean to make this just a discussion of reviews of Pynchon, but does it strike anyone else as odd that the reviewers of Pynchon seem to pretty consistently pan his character development? Which is to say, they miss the point? I mean, yeah, it's a little unfortunate that an author who populates his books with so damned many people also seems to make those people rather indistinguishable, with little insight to their personalities. And these same reviewers apparently liked Mason & Dixon--which is weird, b/c I swear to god, I thought the critics hated that book--b/c its characters were more "flesh & blood." Which is probably b/c those characters were real, historical people, and the defining events & difficulties of their lives were already there & Pynchon pretty much had to write about them. Anyway, though: is anyone out there reading Pynchon for the characters? Laura Miller calls ATD "cartoonish," which she seems to regard as a bad thing. Is there anything wrong with wanting a cartoon in big words & long sentences about big ideas? Is it just a cheap joke to dredge up dead sciences to employ as metaphor, or to play live action Tetris over turn-of-the-century Venice? And also: is there anyone who does it better?! This talk of "Pynchon's students" having surpassed their master simply leaves me scratching my head. No offense, Dusto.

By the way, I'd welcome anyone who wants to participate in my Myspace reading group: http://groups.myspace.com/againsttheday
I'm pretty pleased with what footnotes I've come up with there, and I'd welcome lively discussion, be it here or there.

Finally. If I could ask the internet just one question, it'd be: What the hell happened to New York, exactly?
 
 
Dusto
10:40 / 29.11.06
Unless you're farther in the book than I am, I think you're talking about San Francisco, not New York (where they brought the Figure from the north)? There was a huge fire there in 1906, I believe. The common folk story about it is that it was started when Mrs. O'Leary's cow kicked over a lantern, but Pynchon seems to think the act was a bit more deliberate.
 
 
Raw Norton
12:42 / 29.11.06
Oh wow, yeah you're totally right about it being San Francisco. Thanks.
 
 
Dusto
14:51 / 29.11.06
I was a bit confused myself, until he mentioned the Tenderloin, then it all came together for me.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:53 / 29.11.06
Is there anything wrong with wanting a cartoon in big words & long sentences about big ideas?

I certainly hope not. It's what I hope I'll be getting for my twenty quid, after all. It's Pynchon's blend of the literary and the cartoonish that really does it for me- though not my favourite of his books, Vineland is a gem for its Godzilla references and UFO sequence. And the ninjas.
 
 
strange loop
16:56 / 29.11.06
I'm only 80 pages in, so can't say much yet, but at least this is a discussion in which I have *something* to say.

Regarding the readability, I took a skim through Pynchon's other work just now, and apart from Gravity's Rainbow (which is dense and complex on every page, it seems) and Mason & Dixon (which I somehow could not finish, I got as far as them reaching America, and something made me just stop, I wasn't enjoying the writing or the story anymore) I don't think Against The Day is any easier reading than the others. It reminded me immediately of V.

...and that's the thing. V was the first Pynchon I read, and it is a marvelously easy read. One of the reasons I persisted with Gravity's Rainbow was that having read V, I knew that in all that complex writing and near-impossible to follow sequence of events, was a really good story, and lots of fun also.

I'm happy that ATD is an easy read. I wasn't sure I was ready right now for another Gravity's Rainbow.

As for characters, I'm not sure what is meant by the lack of depth. Sure, in GR, many characters are glossed over, and I am sure they will be here. This is no different than almost any novel I have read with a large cast.

I have a feel for some of the characters in ATD already. Lew Basnight definitely has an individual personality, as does Merle Rideout.

Maybe the critics need too much extra description to get the idea that a character has personality. One of the first things I loved about Pynchon was his ability to get things across in a single sentence that would take many writers a paragraph. Example, Merle travelling with his daughter:

"As Merle watched her sleep, an unmanly warmth about the eyeballs would surprise him."

One sentence, especially in context with what you already know about Merle and Erlys and how she left him, and you get that this is a usually stoic man, not generally given to shows of emotion, who loves his daughter so intensely that it breaks through and brings out the uncharacteristic display of strong emotion.

But didn't it sound so much better the way Pynchon wrote it?

And the reviews which complained how the book ends without resolution or how narrative refuses to follow the usual rules - I guess those reviewers never read any Joyce or Burroughs. Resolution is not what I am looking for here. I don't much mind where Pynchon is going or whether we get there, I just want to be along for the ride. I know it's going to take me places I want to go.

So far the only issue I am having is that occasionally some of the language sounds a bit odd. In some sections, he has a tendency to end sentences with the words of, with, in, and so on, in a manner which sounds unnatural. Knowing Pynchon, I am assuming that he has done this intentionally as it is the voice/style of the characters or area about which he is writing.

Beyond that I am really enjoying it, much more than Vineland or M&D, almost as much as GR and as much as V. If this really is Pynchon's last book, it's looking to be a really good way to go out.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:24 / 29.11.06
D'you know, V's the only one I never finished...
 
 
Dusto
23:43 / 29.11.06
I must agree. V. is by far my least favorite, and though I finished it once, it's definitely the hardest to reread.
 
 
Tsuga
00:26 / 30.11.06
*spit-take*
 
 
Raw Norton
04:25 / 30.11.06
Hmm. While I personally prefer Gravity's Rainbow, I have on several occasions recommended V as an "introductory" Pynchon book, mostly on the premise that it's pretty rewarding, and is less daunting as a reading task.
 
 
Dusto
10:44 / 30.11.06
Gravity's Rainbow is unquestionably denser, but in V. I just don't have the feeling that he's completely in control of his powers as a writer yet. Though he'd later make an art of the elliptical sentence, in V. I thought too often that he was suffering from a lack of syntactical clarity. There are parts I like, most of them to do with Benny, but it also feels to me like the most pastiche of any of his novels, and I know that's kind of the point, but I just find it the least compelling, the least rewarding, and the least polished of his novels. Which is not to say that it's not really good.
 
 
buttergun
14:33 / 30.11.06
I've always thought The Crying of Lot 49 was the best Pynchon introduction, even if the author himself derides it. I agree on the accusations leveled against V, which is actually my least favorite Pynchon novel.

I FINALLY received my copy of Against the Day, which I pre-ordered a while back. Will start reading tonight.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
16:52 / 30.11.06
Wait- Pynchon doesn't like The Crying of Lot 49? The man's an idiot. Only not.
 
 
buttergun
12:48 / 01.12.06
He does nothing but take shots at it in his intro to "Slow Learner." That was written over 20 years ago, so who knows, maybe he's changed his mind since then.

About 20 pages into Against the Day so far, and really enjoying it.
 
 
matthew.
01:56 / 03.12.06
So I currently own Mason and Dixon (first edition) and a beautiful paperback of Gravity's Rainbow and can you guess how much I've read of it? Yeah, it's zero.

I took GR onto a flight across the country, along with LA Confidential. A million lira to the one who guesses which book I read voraciously?

I really want to read Pynchon. And I really like the Baroque Cycle, so I thought maybe M&D would be up my alley. But, I just couldn't get into it. Of course, I was reading George Pelecanos' The Night Gardener at the same time.

I bought Against The Day today and I'm about 20 pages in. It reminds me a lot of The Baroque Cycle so far. I'm enjoying it. I'm going to try and read this fucker (Pynchon, I mean) if it's the last thing I do. I mean, I've read Ulysses and The Sound and The Fury. I've read To The Lighthouse and Naked Lunch and fucking Dhalgren. Why can't I get into Pynchon? Gah. Well, wish me luck, boyos.
 
 
buttergun
04:38 / 03.12.06
Matt,

I tried to read GR three times over the span of 6 years. Finally it all just clicked. All I can say is, keep trying. Eventually it will all come together. And when it did, I realized it was the greatest novel I'd ever read...though really I can never decide if that's really GR or Illuminatus.

Have you attempted Crying of Lot 49? That really is the perfect intro to Pynchon.

I'm only 80 or so pages into Against the Day, so I can't say how it rates as an intro to Pynchon. I CAN say that of all his novels, so far it seems the most like Gravity's Rainbow. The character Lew in fact seems like another Slothrop (the guy who ends up becoming a gumshoe, shadowing Franz Ferdinad).
 
 
Dusto
14:27 / 03.12.06
Yeah, I'd second the opinion that you should start with The Crying of Lot 49. I was only 18 when I decided to read Gravity's Rainbow, and it was hard to even get started, but the approach that eventually seemed to work for me was to just plow through it reading every word without stopping to try to understand everything. It took some time to get acquainted, but after a while I started to know the book, and it got easier to read. So when I finished, I turned immediately back to the beginning and read it again (something I rarely do), and by the end of the second read I was thoroughly convinced it was the greatest book of all time.
 
 
Tsuga
16:00 / 03.12.06
M&D took me a little while to get into. I can't remember why now, sorry to say. Something that's maybe easier in the same style is "The Sot-Weed Factor", which I really loved, after also dragging through the first hundred or so pages. So far this one is immediately engaging, though I'm always a little pissed with the run-on sentences that switch around between subject, object, clauses and pronouns, & cetera. Plowing through usually is the best course, I agree, and it usually comes together.
My memory may not be the best (no, wait-scratch that, it is absolutely not the best), but V. really seemed pretty easy to read. This was after GR, so maybe I was inured to his beautiful bloated prose. I know I liked it better than Lot 49, though.
I have not had much time to read, so I'm not far into it, but it is pretty fun so far.
 
 
Dusto
20:39 / 03.12.06
I second the recommendation for The Sot-Weed Factor. One of my favorite books, though strangely I don't really care for any of Barth's other novels. I think I read the first 200 pages of Mason & Dixon about three times before the time I actually finished it.

Against the Day is going well. I'm starting to get more a sense of a central plot, at least, and it's still fun on a page to page basis.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:45 / 03.12.06
M&D took me two goes- a lot of that had to do with the sheer bulk of the thing. I do most of my reading on public transport, and sometimes it just ain't practical to lug a 1,000 pages-plus hardback around with you.
 
 
Raw Norton
01:11 / 04.12.06
I'm actually feeling like ATD is a pretty good piece of intro Pynchon, inasmuch as it's pretty engaging right from the start *and* is a big, sprawling book like the other really great Pynchon (in my opinion being GR, M&D, V, and possibly ATD). In fact, to me the strongest argument for reading The Crying of Lot 49 first would be that if you read it after having read the really "epic" Pynchon stuff, it seems kind of hollow. It's a good intro to Pynchon's style, but without the sprawling content that's maybe my biggest reason for reading Pynchon.

Oh, & I want to develop further something I said about Pynchon's characters supra. While, yeah, they have feelings & whatnot, and they're not entirely interchangeable, they tend to change abruptly change course w/ little explanation. Characters hop on trains, or off trains, or fall in with colorful crowds, and in a sentence or two they've suddenly abandoned their previous course and are whisked off to some new exotic locale, peopled with even more colorful characters and beset with some slightly different political conundrum. And, hey, *I like* the locales, characters, & conundra! But I'm often left with the feeling that some character has been relocated just to introduce these things, without giving me any sense as to why that character as a real person chose to do just what he did. Like some rollicking adventure, devoid of purpose. But I wanna stress: I love me some Pynchon. And that's what I mean when I feel like certain character-obsessed reviewers are missing the purpose.

To check in with my own progress: I'm almost through with Iceland Spar, which kind of drags in places. Frank & Reed occupy just way too much of the action for long stretches. At this point, I'm cheering whenever I get to a chapter with the Chums. Anyone else feel the same way?
 
 
Dusto
10:40 / 04.12.06
I see what you mean about slight motivation (Lew going along with Nigel and Neville?), but I'd never really articulated it before.

I'm having the opposite experience re: Chums vs. Frank/Reef, though. I was finding myself thinking that he does the "straight" narrative so well, that I was sort of wishing we wouldn't have to go back to the absurdity of the Chums.
 
 
buttergun
12:33 / 14.12.06
How's everyone doing so far? I'm about 230 pages in, and things are finally picking up. Reefer Traverse taking up his father's guise of the Kid, Lew hanging out with a "White Visitation"-type place in England. Speaking of which, looks like my early call of Lew being the Slothrop of the book has come true. He's got the same personality, he's out of his element among mystics in England, and Pynchon even had him pull the Hanging Man, Slothrop's card.

Speaking of which, I'm wondering if Pynchon realizes the Rider Waite tarot deck wasn't published until 1910? He has people using it like it's a best-seller, referring to it like it's the standard tarot deck...kind of like today, in fact. Or do I have my years off? Are Lew's adventures in England set in 1910? Doesn't seem right...just a few chapters back, it was still 1893.

Anyway, the idea of the living tarot figures is pretty cool, and would make for a great book on its own. I'm just hoping these divergent plot threads will come together, or at least SOME sort of "main character" will appear, but I'm figuring neither will happen.
 
 
Dusto
15:49 / 14.12.06
I'm about 350 pages in. The Traverse kids are all quite enjoyable, as is Lew. Not much more to say at the moment. Re: the Rider-Waite Tarot deck, I'm pretty sure that the book's time frame has advanced to at least 1910 by that point, since the San Francsico fire was in 1906. I think 1893 gets left behind fairly early on, actually.
 
 
buttergun
15:55 / 14.12.06
The thing is, Lew is shown the Coleman-Smith drawn Rider Waite deck right before boarding the ship to the UK. Upon arriving there, he discovers that Galveston, TX, the port from which they left, was hit by a hurricane the day after they left, a hurricane which killed 6,000 people. This was an historical event, which occured in September 1900.

So that's ten years before the Rider Waite was published. Pynchon goofed. But was it on purpose? He probably figured no one would notice.
 
 
matthew.
23:07 / 15.12.06
I'm about 200 pages in and enjoying it immensely. It's funny and interesting, and since I was warned about the lack of plot and the dropping of threads, it's been (so far) a relatively easy read. Let's keep at 'er, though.
 
 
Raw Norton
23:23 / 22.12.06
W/r/t the timeline, I've actually become convinced that the armageddon wrought by the artifact from the North actually *does* take place in NY (lifelong Atlantan, I'd not realized there was a Tenderloin in Manhattan as well; apparently that's what the neighborhood was called at the turn of the century). Also, the Russian Revolution takes place in a single (gorgeous) paragraph at the top of p595; so 450 pages after the fire or whatever we're only up to 1905.

Still leaves me with the question of what the hell happened to New York; I don't think it's any historical event.
 
 
buttergun
04:08 / 24.12.06
I just saw it as Pynchon taking a moment to spout some vindictive against post-9/11 New York City.

I'm now 400 pages in, still enjoying it...but here's the thing. On the side I'm reading Cormac McCarthy's "The Road," of which I've only read 100 pages of...but it's captured my imagination so much more than Against the Day has in three times as many pages.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:49 / 24.12.06
Just started it thbis evening, and it's amazing how quickly I suddenly snapped back into Pynchon mode. Within a few paragraphs it was like I'd been reading his stuff constantly for the last few years, when in actuality I haven't reread any since Mason & Dixon came out.

(Interestingly enough, I almost bought The Road today- I fucking LOVE Cormac MacCarthy- but thought it might prove too distracting).
 
 
calgodot
22:45 / 24.12.06
Just got Against the Day, but can't seem to get into it. I had the same problem with Mason & Dixon - it was three months before I could get past page 50. Not with any other of Pynchon's works, though. Gravity's Rainbow is actually something I pick up and read for pleasure, the way some people might peruse the Bible or a book of photographs (I do the same thing with Ulysses, Finnegans Wake, Beowulf, The Odyssey...), for inspiration or to relieve boredom.

Cormac McCarthy rocks. Someone should start a Cormac McCarthy thread.
 
 
Raw Norton
03:48 / 25.12.06
*sound of thread popping off of Cormac McCarthy's dick, slipping back into discussion fo Rider Waite tarot...*

It's possible Pynchon new that the tarot was an anachronism, but took liberties (as with physics & geopolitics) so as to use that particular deck for specific reasons. He discusses the specifics of one particular design on p901, for example. I'm not familiar with the tarot; I don't know whether Pynchon could've drawn on other designs to the same effect or not. It's possible, though, that he chose this particular deck--despite anachronism--because he wanted to incorporate those particular images into his story.

*However* I'll concede that Pynchon doesn't appear to have worn his fact-checker hat too tightly at all times. E.g., p352, where he places Little Nemo in the Journal rather than the Herald.
 
 
Dusto
15:33 / 02.01.07
I'm about halfway through. It's been slow going with the end of the semester and lots of traveling, but I'm still really enjoying it. And yeah, I realize now that I was wrong about San Francisco. I think it was just a completely fictional devastation of New York. It threw me for a loop because of how much Pynchon has always been based in real history in the past, but this book sems to be by far his most fantastic. It seems there are eight main threads at this point--one for each of the Traverse children, Merle, Lew, Dally, and Yashmeen, with the Chums as a kind of narrative glue--but I'm actually finding it more easily managed than the four main threads of GR. I hope to finish in the next few weeks, before my new semester gets too busy, and I'll post more when I'm done.
 
  

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