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Jay Z vs Morrissey

 
  

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Alex's Grandma
05:30 / 17.11.06
I'll set my stall out here - I feel that Jay Z's grotesque celebration of materialism is, while amusing enough in itself, indirectly responsible for the War in Iraq.

Morrissey, on the other hand, has been responsible for no wars.

At least apart from the war on the banal, which he has always fought so elegantly. With a book of poetry in his hand.

I just feel like this is worth discussing.
 
 
Sax
07:12 / 17.11.06
Morrissey has been responsible for no wars?

Where were you in Eighty-Nine?
 
 
Mistoffelees
08:33 / 17.11.06
How are we to discuss this? I only know one song from Jay Z (from the first Barbelith sampler). I know pretty much all Morrissey songs (winamp says I got 157 on my harddrive).

Since last year we have some critical laws here concerning downloading, so I have pretty much stopped that and thus won´t be able to get more listening material from Jay Z without paying (and I won´t do that).

Maybe it´s similar with Jay Z fans, and they don´t know many Morrissey tracks?

So, how many people here know enough music from these two guys to discuss this properly?
 
 
ZF!
08:37 / 17.11.06
I dislike them both.

I think they should fight each other, in a cage, barehanded, to truly prove who is the mightier.

First of all it would be fun to watch this, and it would also prove who is more "street" (and therefore credible) once and for all; artsy, depressed, lonely white people who love their Mum or sensitive, urban, drug dealing, rappers who love their Moms.

My money is on the white boy.
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
10:05 / 17.11.06
I lost respect for Morrisey when he married Beyonce to be honest.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:15 / 17.11.06
I feel personally insulted by this thread.
 
 
Benny the Ball
10:27 / 17.11.06
I was quite happy, and then I saw this thread, which has just totally given me 99 problems.

Heaven knows I'm miserable now.
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
13:43 / 17.11.06
Well Fly, you should have realised that we all know you love Jay Z!
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:38 / 17.11.06
Morrisey;s not real music is he he uses mixing decks its just stealing he doent even rite his own songs
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
14:48 / 17.11.06
AND I've never seen him walking around with a diamond topped cane either or a top hat made of gold...
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
15:50 / 17.11.06
Yeah, cos, like, glorifying pimping is, like, really cool.

Not.
 
 
Mistoffelees
17:30 / 17.11.06
Good old Morrissey is a merry fellow
Bright blue his jacket is and his boots are yellow
None has ever caught him yet, for Moz he is the master His songs are stronger songs and his feet are faster.
 
 
Feverfew
18:34 / 17.11.06
Thanks to the thread title, I now have a mental image. Involving Duelling Pistols.

And you know what? It's really brightened up my day.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
05:38 / 18.11.06
Morrisey, of course, has never glorified anything at all morally or politically objectionable.

Anyway... this really isn't the place to talk about the forthcoming Jay-Z album, is it? I better go and dig out one of the other threads.
 
 
stabbystabby
05:57 / 18.11.06
I feel that Jay Z's grotesque celebration of materialism is, while amusing enough in itself, indirectly responsible for the War in Iraq.

More than, say, Madonna? Are you saying Jay Z affected the mindset of Bush and Co? coz the war was very much against public opinion as far as i can tell....
 
 
miss wonderstarr
06:52 / 18.11.06
The initial proposal is about the celebration of materialism. Most notably, Morrissey satirised the selling-out of artists and the ripping-off of fans in "Paint A Vulgar Picture":

Re-issue ! Re-package ! Re-package !
Re-evaluate the songs
Double-pack with a photograph
Extra Track (and a tacky badge)



Though ironically, the song title was used to promote the Smiths' "Best..." double best-of album, which did exactly what Morrissey had predicted (without the badge, perhaps).

I know less about contemporary hip-hop than 80s indie, but I would say Jay-Z's lyrics seem to fairly typically celebrate the flashy ownership and impressive lifestyle that success in the music industry has allowed him: here's "Dirt Off Your Shoulder".

Your homey Hov' in position, in the kitchen with soda
I just whipped up a watch, tryin to get me a Rover
Tryin to stretch out the coca, like a wrestler, yessir
Keep the Heckler close, you know them smokers'll test ya
But like, fifty-two cards when I'm, I'm through dealin
Now fifty-two bars come out, now you feel 'em
Now, fifty-two cars roll out, remove ceiling
In case fifty-two broads come out, now you chillin
with a boss bitch of course S.C. on the sleeve
At the 40/40 club, ESPN on the screen
I paid a grip for the jeans, plus the slippers is clean
No chrome on the wheels, I'm a grown-up for real


(Though the final line does note that Jay isn't into every kind of showy display ~ as a sign of his maturity.)

A couple other well-known examples of Jay's lyrics seem to indicate that giving an inventory of impressive possessions is part of his persona:

I'm, young H.O., rap's Grateful Dead
Back to take over the globe, now break bread
I'm in, Boeing jets, Global Express
Out the country but the blueberry still connect
On the low but the yacht got a triple deck
But when you Young, what the fuck you expect? Yep, yep

(Numb/Encore)

The one and only
Stick boney but the pockets are fat like tony

Soprano ...
Yes sir I'm cut from a different cloth
My texture is the best fur, I'm chinchilla

(Crazy in Love)

I'd bow to superior knowledge on this, but I can't remember Morrissey ever boasting in his lyrics about his clothes ("I wear black on the outside..." is perhaps a similar statement of identity through fashion), where he lives, what car he drives or really any kind of material possessions.

In terms of causing a "war" though, we could consider Morrissey's (I think) unwise and perhaps irresponsible play with skinhead and Union Flag imagery, and his songs purporting to represent British Asian culture ("Bengali in Platforms", "Asian Rut") that, coupled with "The National Front Disco" seemed deliberately and maybe foolishly ambiguous and provocative. You could discuss that alongside Jay's use of the "n-bomb" in his lyrics, and the two artists' possible role in perpetuating or creating racial tensions and stereotypes.
 
 
Ganesh
07:21 / 18.11.06
Jay Z's attempts at a quiff are rubbish.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
12:37 / 18.11.06
and Nancy Sinatra has never covered a Jay Z song.
 
 
Quantum
12:44 / 18.11.06
(I'm) rap's Grateful Dead

'nuff said. You'll never see a 'Jay Z lyrics of your life' thread, will you?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:42 / 18.11.06
No, never, because rap just isn't, y'know, deep or emotionally resonant enough, is it?

Alex's (Father's) usual piss-taking aside, do we really have to have the same tired, lazy, ill-informed opinions wheeled out every time 'mainstream' rap gets discussed on this board? I've posted Jay-Z lyrics in the Lyrics Of Your Life thread, because his music says more to me about my life than Morrisey ever could hope to.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
13:50 / 18.11.06
Weelll... maybe I shouldn't have tried, on a pisstaking thread, but I sort of tried, and I didn't mean to be dissing rap in my response above.
 
 
uncle retrospective
13:52 / 18.11.06
PANIC!
 
 
Quantum
14:00 / 18.11.06
rap just isn't, y'know, deep or emotionally resonant enough

Some (a lot of) rap is, I just don't like Jay Z.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:20 / 18.11.06
I didn't think you were dissing rap, miss w. Rest easy!

I don't mind you not liking Jay-Z, Quantum. I just object to the assumption that nobody would possibly want to post his lyrics in that way, that "this sums me up right now" way. And maybe that's not what you meant, maybe you were saying "you'd never see an entire thread devoted to that here on this board, whereas there was one on Morrisey". And maybe you're right (although I think I could sustain one with help from Pegs, Seth and a few others), but that says as much about Barbelith here and now as it does about either artist.
 
 
Quantum
16:10 / 18.11.06
Well, I don't like the Dead either thus the post. I was more pointing at the Barbelith love of Mozza than saying the lyrics weren't apt, I reckon it's more common for Barbelith posters to feel sorry for themselves and like Morrissey than feel that they're celebrating materialism and like Jay Z.
Can you start a Jay Z lyrics of your life thread? Can you!! Personally I don't like 'em but I reckon you could get it going. Let's face it, if a half man half biscuit thread can be sustained then what can't?

why play with fire, burn
we get together like a choir
to acquire what we desire
we do dirt like worms
produce g's like sperm
'til legs spread like germs
I got extensive hoes, with expensive clothes
and I sip wine, and spit vintage flows
but y'all don't know......
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
cause you can't knock the hustle


produce g's like sperm? I'll take chilled bicycles on a hillside meself.
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
16:41 / 18.11.06
Jay Z flows like a blocked toilet. Can't throw a daffodil to save his life either.
 
 
matthew.
02:35 / 19.11.06
%I don't like rap music because it makes black people hit women%
 
 
Slim
05:18 / 19.11.06
Morrisey, of course, has never glorified anything at all morally or politically objectionable.

Bullshit. Morrisey is a whining bastard and this offends my moral sensibility far more than Jay-Z ever has.
 
 
Seth
08:13 / 19.11.06
In a real fight? Unless Morrissey got his BNP mates to throw steel chairs in the ring he wouldn't stand a chance.
 
 
illmatic
09:39 / 19.11.06
Flyboy was joking, Slim, and to further back his point, not only me, but pretty much all of my puils would relate a hellvua lot more to Jay Z than Morrisey. Seeing as half of them seem to spend huge amounts of time actually writing lyrics, I find the assumption that Hip Hop can't contribute to a "lyrics of your life" situation pretty absurd really.

And Natty Rah Jah: Yeah, cos, like, glorifying pimping is, like, really cool.

So that's all there is to it, is there? You're not tempted to ask why a song like "Big Pimping" exists and why it might appeal to young black people? You're not slightly concerned about projecting your own moral standards on black popular music?
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
11:00 / 19.11.06
Oh for fuck's sake. You're actually seriously going to try to defend a song glorifying pimping? On Barbelith, the only place i have ever found on the web where feminism is taken seriously?

I'm fully fucking aware of the economic, social and ideological conditions that make "pimp" as a "career" and/or a symbol of "coolness" attractive to young (not necessarily black) men in the poor urban areas of the developing world. I'm equally aware of the factors that make a career in the army attractive to people in a similar position, but i don't consider that morally excusable either.

I have known pimps, and i have known young women who have been, variously, abducted and systematically raped, forcibly injected with heroin in order to turn them into addicts, tricked into giving up all of their (previously independent) earnings as sex workers to the pimps and then eventually kept physically restrained and beaten and/or raped at every attempt to escape, permanently injured in order to render them infertile, and killed by pimps. So i hope you can understand why pimping, much like rape or Nazism, is one of my absolute zero-tolerance things-to-treat-as-a-good-thing.

I actually think that African-American artists uncritically glorifying pimping is, in one sense, especially fucked up, because they are basically glorifying pretty much the same thing that was done to their only-a-few-generations-ago ancestors, without any apparent acknowledgement, or even awareness [in the songs saying positive things about pimps that i've heard], of the parallels (I would hope that this means many/most of them aren't aware of what pimping actually involves, but my strong suspicion is that a lot of them probably are, and still don't see anything wrong with it... which is probably about as fucked up as it gets)...

Oh, and in no way whatsoever am I trying to say Morrissey has never said or done anything dodgy (I'm aware of his arguable racism as well, but, frankly, don't give enough of a fuck about his style of music to want to develop a critical assessment of him).

It's just that, well, this thread to me is kind of like if someone had posted a thread titled, say, "The Chemical Brothers vs Skrewdriver". Which i think would rightly be vilified by nearly everyone on Barbelith.

Part of me thinks this is taking something intended to be light-hearted rather too seriously. But then i think, what would Barbelith's response be to a song called something like "Paki Bashing" or "Bitch Raping" and treating those as unproblematic terms and (more importantly) laudable activities?

Fucking hell. I'm feeling sick from even having to type the fucking word "pimping" so many times...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:16 / 19.11.06
Wait, so when rap artists use the word "pimp" they are all basically uncritically glorifying the worst things that that word can possibly mean... but when you use the word 'chav', it means exactly what you want it to mean and its other uses and associations don't incriminate you? Seems an inconsistent position to me. And fair enough, we all have those.

You should be aware, by the way, that issues of morality/politics in music, specifically with regard to hip hop and more generally, as well as broader issues of bad politics vs. good aesthetics in art and entertainment, and again more specifically the issue of why hip hop in particular is so frequently singled out for scrutiny and condemnation, have all been discussed in depth on the board before. As, to a lesser degree, has Jay-Z's output to date. This is not incompatible with the board being a place where feminism is taken seriously, and so I'd advise you not to expect that because of that fact, certain artists/songs will receive only universal vilification.
 
 
Ganesh
11:24 / 19.11.06
I think we need to be a bit careful generally, when using phrases like "Barbelith's response"...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:26 / 19.11.06
I mean, let's not get it twisted here. Jay-Z's verse on 'Big Pimpin' describes a bitter, misogynistic, alienated, loveless state of mind: "Me give my heart to a woman? Not for nothin, never happen... Heart cold as assassins, I got no passion..."

What I would invite you to consider - and I'm assuming you're familiar with Jay-Z's music and lyrics in detail, yes, since you're giving Morrisey a free pass due to lack of interest - is whether all of his recorded output consistently espouses the same position as that verse. And then consider, if it does not (spoiler: it does not), then what it is about him as an artist that makes him more deserving automatically of vilification than, say (and it's the common point of comparison, but it works for a reason) Nick Cave? If a white, 'alternative' rock artist writes a song from the point of view of someone who is in a state of mind which is that cold, heartless, bitter - and also writes songs about different states of mind, such as being in love - are they vilified for it, or are they applauded for their uncompromising, challenging bravery?
 
 
Char Aina
11:36 / 19.11.06
when rap artists use the word "pimp" they are all basically uncritically glorifying the worst things that that word can possibly mean

i dont think he said that, though, did he?
he was talking about one song, and then said he hadnt heard pimping discussed in a way that showed an awareness (that satisfied him, i assume) of the issues surrounding it in any other songs.

i'm curious, how should one condemn something one dislikes being given support in hip hop?

for exmple, i am uncomfortable with the prevalence of misogyny in the lyrics of 'yes boss' and would like some advice on how to describe my dislike without being accused of unfairly singling them out.

i'd also be interested to hear more about your feelings regarding the song NRJ was talking about.
 
  

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