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Everquest economy

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Molly Shortcake

23:48 / 27.01.02

The business model for online gaming is still evolving, but at least one popular online game has already created a powerful free-market economy, according to a study.

Edward Castronova, associate professor of economics at California State University at Fullerton, recently completed a study of the economic activity surrounding "EverQuest," a popular online role-playing game. In "EverQuest," players control characters that acquire skills and possessions that can be bartered within the game or sold for real money on online auction sites such as eBay.

Based on a review of thousands of completed auctions for "EverQuest" items and in-game currency, Castronova concluded that players earn an average wage of $3.42 for every hour they play the game and collectively produce annual gross "exports" of more than $5 million.

And if the "EverQuest" universe of Norrath were a country, its per-capita gross national product would be $2,266--comparable to the 77th richest country on Earth and ranking it between Russia and Bulgaria. Platinum pieces, the in-game currency known as pp, end up with an exchange rate of about a penny per pp, making "EverQuest" currency more valuable than the Japanese yen and the Spanish peseta.

Full story

16:06 / 28.01.02

This is mad. Project Entropia looks to be a similar type of thing to Everquest in that it's a multi-player, persistant world type game. With one important difference. When players buy & sell things in this game they do so with real currency. So how long will it be before we have a virtual economic system in the real worlds' top ten GDPs? Is it just me or does that sound really freaky?

And it also raises the possibility of good players being able to make a living by playing the game.

16:24 / 28.01.02

That would be a really interesting way to erode power from the nation state. It makes sense actually, replace arbitrary, out of date nation states, with new virtual ones modern and flexible enough to meet the needs of their citizens. Not as easy as that though is it? There would have to be a lot of co-existence.

11:47 / 04.02.02

A similar thing happened with Phantasy Star Online, players finding rare weapons and selling them via eBay.

Molly Shortcake

22:03 / 04.02.02

Those PSO items sell for next to nothing. A fully stocked Everquest character nets about $5,000. My cousin builds em up, sells em and starts over again.

03:38 / 05.02.02

Last I heard, The Sims Online had plans for in game adspace and had made provisions for in intra-and-extra-game markets... Since it'll be almost entirely user-created content, the most popular locations stand to earn their creators both simoleans and dollars. Don't know about replacing terrestrial economies, but it's still pretty interesting.

15:15 / 05.02.02

I have an ultrasadgeek idea that I sometimes toy with. Saving up some dough. Taking a year off work and then immersing in a multi-user environment. Putting the same amount of effort into it as a normal job.
Sometimes that seems like a fun and worthwhile thing to do. Like a year abroad.

16:44 / 05.02.02

...I like the idea of investing in anything can yield results or in this case $. Man...if only I had gotten into this when I became unemployed...but, I guess the good thing is that there's a huge interest in online gaming, etc. by lots of companies, so this won't be a flash in the pan.

This conceptually sounds similar in some ways how people have "ebay stores" located on the main site. Using a current environment or system to one's advantage.

I'm also curious...how can one be assured of the fact that there's someone who didn't hack the system and upped a statistic in order to sell it...hence fraud? Are there security stipulations or standards involved?

16:20 / 07.02.02

from today's slashdot

quote: Lukenary writes: "Mythic Entertainment, creator of the excellent MMORPG Dark Age of Camelot, is being sued by BlackSnow Interactive, owner and maintainer of CamelotExchange - an online auction site for the exchange of in-game items, money, and characters/accounts. This could be a landmark case: if you spend (typically) weeks of playing time to garner 1,000 gold in-game, do you have the right to auction off that gold for real money? Mythic has not yet had an official response to the suit, but you can read BSI's press release at the CamelotExchange site above. Personally, I find it interesting that BSI is going after DAoC, calling Mythic a "software giant," while ignoring the more established compettion in EverQuest producer Sony, Asheron's Call producer Microsoft, and Ultima Online producer Electronic Arts. Mythic's only product at this time is Dark Age of Camelot, which was released last October."

Molly Shortcake

01:35 / 08.02.02

Related thread on the above post.

06:27 / 08.02.02

the thing about this whole "it's an economic system" thing is that the game exists as a part of the us economy (for the most part) and therefore isnt sustainable as an independant system. like argentina, if the us dollar tanks (or sony tanks, for that matter) their system gets shut down. so its a risky proposition to imagine everquest as a investable or equitable thing.

the idea of individuals making a living off of it, of course, has precedent in professional gamblers, card players, or even game players of all sorts.

what's the "national profit" of a casino in las vegas?

wouldnt any random neighborhood in ohio have a "national profit" that would rival poorer countries? california, i know is up there in the top ten. what do we get from making this metaphor? can't you take any social subsystem in the us that exchanges money and compare it to the international economy?

13:07 / 08.02.02

...would then say...

...running an open source initiative and hosting the service off main land prove to be a place to create an economy that can be independant of any nation? Service charges would be a monthly fee that supports the system (economy) and buys a person usage rights. From there, you could develop services, etc. that could make work / time into something profitable...service = citizenship...

14:15 / 08.02.02

quote:Originally posted by Lord Rugal Ultimate:
Related thread on the above post.

I don't see the connection out side of two computer companies being sued. Am I missing something?

Molly Shortcake

22:55 / 08.02.02

Product licensing and usage rights.

08:41 / 22.03.02

i've been way too on the redundant thread scout team recently. anyway, topping this in light of Lurid Archive's thread. this is one of those threads i've been thinking of cutting and archiving, with some of the other cool threads we've had on video game theoretics over the past few months...

08:50 / 22.03.02

Originally posted by to banshee or not to banshee...:[H]ow can one be assured of the fact that there's someone who didn't hack the system and upped a statistic in order to sell it...hence fraud? Are there security stipulations or standards involved?

It's not like a gaming company puts in security features so that the eBay economy doesn't collapse, BUT if a game is easily hacked, people eventually just quit outright, so gaming companies do have an incentive to keep security pretty tight. (I hear this happened with the first Diablo--cheating was so prevalent that the game just collapsed because anyone who played by the rules would be outclassed by hordes of h4ck3rz.)

I imagine that there are plenty of things that are hackable, but it's in the EverQuest creators' best interest to plug any security leaks as soon as possible.

08:55 / 22.03.02

oh yeah, this is a big part of online game development, i was working for sony briefly and the concept of hacker in the game was constantly floated in conversations.

but to bring it back to the economy metaphor, the SEC is sort of like an anti-hacking security system for stock market economy, then, isn't it? and anti-monopoly laws might be a sort of firewall.

14:31 / 23.03.02

quote:Originally posted by Lord Rugal Ultimate:
Those PSO items sell for next to nothing. A fully stocked Everquest character nets about $5,000. My cousin builds em up, sells em and starts over again.

and how long does he take to do this?

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

09:21 / 24.03.02

ive seen ppl get to lvl 60 (highest in everquest) from nothing in just over a weekend,

if you have high lvl friends and know your way around it is doable

09:21 / 24.03.02

Presumably it's a question of higher-level characters lending equipment which makes the killing process substantially more simple and hence the going-up-through-the-levels process easier as well? Or something like that?

11:37 / 27.03.02

More like having a high level type sit and babysit you through the first few dozen levels by casting high level spells on you (in particular, damage shields that cause monsters to take damage every time they pop you one, and regeneration spells that heal you while you fight. Then your levelling speed is only limited by the presence of other players, who are both the best thing and the worst thing about online games.)

I lost nine months of my social life to that game, and if I went back I'd lose another chunk. It's evillllll. People use it as a life substitute. Curiously, the newer batch of MMORPGs don't seem to inspire the same fervour despite having 'superior' features on paper.

18:01 / 27.03.02

"I lost nine months of my social life to that game, and if I went back I'd lose another chunk. It's evillllll. People use it as a life substitute."

But what is wrong with choosing a virtual life? Why is it immediately an inferior substitute? I would argue that a virtual existence is a valid life choice, perhaps even an evolution.

The resistable rise of Reidcourchie

18:35 / 02.04.02

Oh this is out of control. All sounds very Ian M Banks. Speaking of books, would the dat island model mentioned in the Cryptonomicon but suitable for hosting an extra-national economy?

A friend of mine has just lost his long term girlfriend because she was fed up with his addiction to Everquest. it wasn't a contribution or a small factor in their break up it was the reason and this was despite constant warnings from his friends. She left him for a role player, oh well some people never learn.

Originally posted by Buk

"But what is wrong with choosing a virtual life? Why is it immediately an inferior substitute? I would argue that a virtual existence is a valid life choice, perhaps even an evolution."

Go on then, I'm interested. How can a heavily mediated simulation compare with the myriad of experiences that make up real life? Interestingly I find it difficult to come up with specific arguments against an online existence because it seems so obviously common sense that real life is so much richer.

18:48 / 02.04.02

for one things, human beings go crazy and die if they're not touched.

secondly, whether or not the concept of living in a virtual world is appealing, the fact is that everquest is a fucking commercial endevour, you are paying your $20 a month to sony so can "live" in their world, and for the most part the world they construct is specifically designed to entertain -- not to teach, not to effect politics, not to grow.

we're currently living under a real government that seems to want to declare war on fucking everyone for the sake of a profit and they will only be more able to do this if everyone is living in videogame la-la lend thinking it's "Evolutionary".

in actual evolutionary terms, people who don't interact in the real world get selected out of existence.

18:49 / 02.04.02

I think it comes down to what you expect out of your life. And how you measure a successful life. If it's a matter of "doing" (in the physical sense) things then, yes, a virtual life is inferior. But, if it's concerned with gaining knowledge and interacting with people then a virtual one can be much more beneficial.

Personally, I knew more people, and was gathering more information about things when I was addicted to irc.

18:51 / 02.04.02

Life can be extremely mundane for very many people. If not down right horrible. Why not have a different life online? Yes, people are ultimately responsible for their own destiny etc etc but for many people life is just plain boring.

See the 'colour' thread in Headshop. Online life can be quite liberating in the way it frees you from your physicality and lets you become something else...

So speaks an online junkie of at least 15 years :P

18:58 / 02.04.02

An example of the above. A few days ago I was asking around for reviews of the Cowboy Bebop movie. Then one night, bored, I got on irc for the first time in years. With in a few hours I was offered a divx (sp?) version of the film.* Something that would not have happened in real life.

There's also an added bonus for people, like myself, who're extremly shy in person. My life, physically and virtually, was enhanced greatly when I became addicted to irc. After a year and a half I had to quit (got kicked out of school for poor grades) and was able to translate the fiction suit that I had created on irc, into a real world psuedo-personality. Making real world interaction some what easier. Though, interactions are still easiest for me when I meet people on line first, where my fiction suit is more free to act.

* before people ask, due to a slow connection I took a rain check, untill I got my cable modem hooked up at home. So no, I don't have a fansub of the Cowboy Bebop movie.

19:16 / 02.04.02

Well, as this story featured on Slashdot shows, this mother certainly doesn't think an Everquest life is as good as a 'real life" - but then, her son did just kill himself "because of the game".

http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/mar02/31536.asp

Surely there is a shirking of personal responsibility here? Perhaps these things *are* addictive, but you can't ban everything a person could conceivably become addicted to ...

22:42 / 02.04.02

Can I just point out for a moment - derailing the way this thread's going right now - that to refer to Everquest as a "virtual country" is a bit disingenuine? It's a company, isn't it? And lots of companies have larger annual incomes than countries. Microsoft and Ford and Nike and all that, yeah? so really this article about "virtual countries" is just a tweaky "look what the geeks are doing" article that doesn't really say too much new about the freaky new futuristic world we live in.

yeah?

m.

03:19 / 03.04.02

Now that matsya, has killed the economy angle of this thread...

It has given me an idea. {{{{{THE BARBELiTH OF THE FUTURE}}}}} We "here" at barbelith invest a large chunk of our social lives on this board. Hell, it's become more than a message board. It's become a cool place to chill with friends and talk shit. We have already made that evolutionary leap into the virtual world... NOW wouldn't it be cool if it had a 3D digital landscape like these games? The conversation would look like a virtual coffee shop. The Laboratory could look like a virtual laboratory. The Magick could look like a virtual...um, I dunno, but it would look crazy! Our 3D fiction suits could walk around, fight, do group spells, and have group sex. It'll be like the Sims gone mad! Would this be possible within the next 5 years?

05:25 / 03.04.02

Killed it? No. Contextualised it, and rather brilliantly...

It's dangerous to live in a world that doesn't really exist and was created to leech money, time and energy from your life. But how is Norrath (EQ world) different from Disneyworld? Come to that, if one was taking a Buddhist perspective, how is it different from RL?

Sleeper, tSub- nobody is saying that online life is somehow intrinsically wrong. In point of fact, I learned social skills in EQ that I'd been dissuaded from learning IRL- mostly to do with personal politics, organisation and 'leading-without-leading'. But in dealing specifically with EQ I'd like give an example of just one of the hoops the game makes you jump through: Jboots.

Jboots (journeyman boots) make you run fast. They're the only way for characters without the appropriate spell to do so. They're therefore considered 'essential' and no-one would consider selling a mage account without them. They can't be traded, so the only way to get them is to do the quest yourself. Most of it just involves running around on errands, but you need to kill an 'Ancient Cyclops' and there are 2 ways to do this. One involves sitting in one spot in the game for anything up to 36 hours waiting for it to appear. The other involves totally dominating an entire playfield with your friends (and I mean *totally*- other people trying to play tends to screw up your chance of having it spawn.) This method takes 4-6 hours, typically.

Let's just look at that: either 10-20 people give up 4-6 hours of time, or one person gives up to 36 hours. Continual, uninterrupted time: if you were to go eat, for example, you'd probably lose the 'camp', because there is a queue of players behind you waiting for the same privilege.

How is this sane? How is this even a game? What it *is* is a method of control: you jump through this hoop, you get the status and the bragging rights and the ability to run 25% faster.... while you're sitting at a computer playing EQ.

This is not irc. it's a different animal. It's *almost* the Matrix. If you paid for the game with biologic energy, it would be.

07:47 / 03.04.02

Isn't it just an alternative way of life though? What is the difference between the pleasure obtained from a virtual environment and that of a "real" environment. Is real world pleasure somehow purer, more vital? What if people don't agree with your version of purity?

08:29 / 03.04.02

An interesting quote from that suicide article.
"He sacrificed everything so he could play for hours, ignoring his family, quitting his job and losing himself in a 3-D virtual world where more than 400,000 people worldwide adventure in a never-ending fantasy."
Which would be reasonable if you accept the traditional role of family and job being central to life...what if you don't though...

09:57 / 03.04.02

Ok: first off, EQ does not fulfil any of your most basic needs. It does not feed you. It does not clothe you. It does not fulfil emotional needs, except for the need to have a game to play.

The exception would be those people who manage to sell significant quantities or EQ stuff- who are in a precarious position, as it's a black market that is expressly forbidden by the terms of use. How hard do these people have to 'work' to keep themselves in clover? Isn't it a thin disguise for an all-consuming addiction?

Buk, I don't accept the 'conventional view of family/job being central to life.' But I could be an aescetic pansexual revolutionary and this sort of addiction would fuck that up just as happily...

If you guys *really* want to win this argument, take it. I'll roll over and admit that an entirely virtual life is potentially 100% valid and fulfilling. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to the gym. Then I'm gonna smoke a bowl and play in the sunshine, and after that I'm going to cook for my family, then have rampant sex. Have fun in EQ.

10:00 / 03.04.02

Flame has a good point with regard to the Buddhist perspective. There's also nothing to say we're not all brains in vats, so the question of virtual v real life becomes more subtle.
If you look at the experiential qualities of a virtual life against a rl existence, both of which are based on sense perception, there don't appear to be any substantial differences.

If it were possible to live a completely virtual existence where you would be totally immersed, would that be a more valid lifestyle choice? Despite comprehending that this world could well be other than it appears (but do I really understand?), there's still a part of me that says no, rl is better.

It's the part of me which makes itself known if I spend a couple of hours on my playstation, saying things like: "When did you last speak to your dad? You could have spent those hours writing something. You could have taken some photographs..."
At the end of the day, I could look a bit of a prat when they pull me out of the vat and remind me that instead of playing a really cool game, I went off and spent some time with simulacra of nieces but hey...
Another thing is that I've never really felt the same level of achievement with games that I do in rl.

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