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Definition of a chav

  
  

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Joggy Yoghurt
13:05 / 16.11.06
Sorry thats true I meant my patch of the land it hasnt changed
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:06 / 16.11.06
So, no - no intention of calling you a hypocrite, Rural Savage. I think, broadly, I would agree with the idea that "chav" is used primarily, at least these days, by people who don't think they are to denigrate and belittle people who, in their opinion, are. There's another strand in the possibly Roma derivation of the name, as well, which I think makes it an even more difficult term to use ... safely?
 
 
Ganesh
13:06 / 16.11.06
What's your "patch of the land"? Are you talking geographically, or among your particular social circle?
 
 
Joggy Yoghurt
13:07 / 16.11.06
Geographically
 
 
Joggy Yoghurt
13:13 / 16.11.06
But if the term simply didn't exist would you and your friends invent it anyways to identify certain people? More's the pity but I prefer not to be clinical about something like this because it makes me feel very sad and strangely lonely to look at people like facts and not engage with it on my own human response but if I go out drinking tonight I will see at least one person who I will identify as chav before I have time to even realise I've done it. So really perhaps I am a hypocrite
 
 
Ganesh
13:14 / 16.11.06
I suspect there's more to it than that, Rural Savage. Terms such as "chav" or "freak" are used in a more complex way than simply geographically, I think, and much depends on individual context.

By way of example, I know someone who is transitioning from male to female. She is also a fan of the Scissor Sisters. When Ana Matronic says, "let your freak flag fly", she's happy to count herself part of a large band of self-identified "freaks" on the basis of shared fandom and because she understands the menner in which Ms Matronic uses the terms to be broadly positive and non-derogatory. On the other hand, she has encountered members of the public who have been verbally aggressive to her in a transphobic way, one of them addressing her as a "freak". Same geographical area, different (sub)cultural contexts, very different associations.
 
 
Joggy Yoghurt
13:17 / 16.11.06
Transphobic, never thought what the word for that was before. No I mean in this one particular area freak has never changed definition which is kind of strange, it has no other connotations or contexts. It is verbally dead apart fron the variety of swearing and dashes of Irish
 
 
Ganesh
13:19 / 16.11.06
More's the pity but I prefer not to be clinical about something like this because it makes me feel very sad and strangely lonely to look at people like facts and not engage with it on my own human response but if I go out drinking tonight I will see at least one person who I will identify as chav before I have time to even realise I've done it.

Rather than framing others as inhumanly "clinical" and looking at people "like facts", you might gain from an attempt at just a li-i-ittle detachment yourself, not to objectify others but to examine your own apparently instinctive "human response". What causes you to identify certain people as "chav"? Are there common situational factors when this happens? What are your feelings about the people you identify in this way? What do you think your use of the concept "chav" says about you, if anything? Does it reflect any underlying assumptions or even prejudices?

Etc.
 
 
Ganesh
13:21 / 16.11.06
No I mean in this one particular area freak has never changed definition which is kind of strange, it has no other connotations or contexts.

I find it unlikely that you've been able to canvass everyone in your area in order to identify their static useage of the term "freak" to denote people wearing Nirvana t-shirts - but I suppose it's possible.
 
 
Joggy Yoghurt
13:25 / 16.11.06
Really I suppose the prejudice could be as simple as not wanting to get beaten up
 
 
Joggy Yoghurt
13:25 / 16.11.06
Well its a small area
 
 
Quantum
13:25 / 16.11.06
But if the term simply didn't exist would you and your friends invent it anyways to identify certain people?

'Townie'. There have always been words to derogate groups of people you don't like, since people learned to speak I suspect. Rarely if ever do those people refer to themselves in the same way or even identify with the group in question. Those people you identify as chavs might not, in fact, have the characteristics you are assigning them beyond a baseball cap.
 
 
Joggy Yoghurt
13:26 / 16.11.06
Rock music fans in general
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:27 / 16.11.06
But if the term simply didn't exist would you and your friends invent it anyways to identify certain people? More's the pity but I prefer not to be clinical about something like this because it makes me feel very sad and strangely lonely to look at people like facts and not engage with it on my own human response but if I go out drinking tonight I will see at least one person who I will identify as chav before I have time to even realise I've done it.

And specifically

engage with it on my own human response

Are you sure this reaction on your part (broadly, "Look! Chav! Different! Enemy!") is "your own human response"? Is it really what you think, or is it a trend you've fallen into, what with your friends, media voices and general culture bandying the term around? Sure, those external influences may be tapping into the internal vein of selfishness and prickery that we all have, but you shouldn't feel that your seeming "gut reaction" is something natural and unchangeable. There are people who say that about homophobia. That's a very silly way of thinking. We can change our attitudes- we have the technology.
 
 
Joggy Yoghurt
13:27 / 16.11.06
That is true in terms of most people but is the a hardcore centre that really lives up to the word chav with venom? I've come across a few
 
 
Joggy Yoghurt
13:28 / 16.11.06
I dont know, I've been beaten up on a few occasions ha, that might be where it stems from
 
 
Ganesh
13:30 / 16.11.06
The point I am making, Rural Savage (and I think Quantum is saying the same thing), is that you may be guilty here of making general assumptions based on your own impression of what those around you think and do. You state confidently, for example, that everyone uses a (moderately complex) term in a very particular way, and I can't see how you can know that for certain. I suspect you may be drawing general conclusions from your own perception of things.

I'll reiterate the questions I asked a few posts ago:

What causes you to identify certain people as "chav"?

Are there common situational factors when this happens?

What are your feelings about the people you identify in this way?

What do you think your use of the concept "chav" says about you, if anything?

Does it reflect any underlying assumptions or even prejudices?

Think through your own use of the term.
 
 
Quantum
13:41 / 16.11.06
Compare to the word 'wanker' for example. You might see someone and think 'What a wanker!' but it says more about you than it does about them.
'What about the hardcore wankers, I've met a few?'
'I've been beaten up by wankers, that's probably why I don't like them' etc. etc.

See? You should probably have a bit of a think about Ganesh's questions too, and maybe take some time before you respond. In this Headshop forum we take a slightly more rigorous stance on debate and more considered responses make for better reading, perhaps post a bit in conversation while you think? That would be my advice.
 
 
Joggy Yoghurt
13:41 / 16.11.06



Well, in the street, most people who I would see who dress in a way that could be called chav I think nothing of it and make no assumptions.I prefer to just assume everyone's grand. But and this is no word of a lie and you can string me up if you want there's a hardcore element at the centre of where a term like this originates that freak the shit out of me and its always the eyes and nothing more that idnetifies them. All the cars and clothes and all that shit is just window dressing and most people are decent.But at the center of it, at the horrible core I do believe there is an evil gang element at work in some people who fall under this label. As for situational factors it is not anything to do with class but then someone outside looking in could say the same thing about the whole situation when in fact there is no real middle class here, its such an employment blackspot. Looking at hundreds of people each night who dress like this and seeing maybe a group of about 5 who seem to relish in being put down by the outside world.Who are proud to be everything society doesnt want and fears. My use of the word chav could be a wanky bigot looking down at people or the fact that Im simply not evolved enough to disengage with people I live around.Nearly the same thing really.
 
 
Quantum
13:44 / 16.11.06
Just to clarify it says more about you than it does about them I mean it says you are categorising and possibly judging them without thinking, I don't mean you're a wanker. That pre-judging, that prejudice, is not a good thing.
 
 
Joggy Yoghurt
13:46 / 16.11.06
No I understand that and it is true and I will still probably do it everyday of my life. The Fall "You don't know what you do when you accuse me, you're talkin about yourself"
 
 
Quantum
13:47 / 16.11.06
So really you don't like aggressively violent people? That evil hardcore could be wearing Nirvana T-Shirts, surely it's their behaviour (and their evil eyes) you fear and detest.
 
 
Joggy Yoghurt
13:49 / 16.11.06
Yes it is but Ive never even been approached in a violent context by someone in a nirvana tshirt. Only in an outfit that is chav
 
 
Ganesh
13:51 / 16.11.06
Well, in the street, most people who I would see who dress in a way that could be called chav I think nothing of it and make no assumptions.I prefer to just assume everyone's grand. But and this is no word of a lie and you can string me up if you want there's a hardcore element at the centre of where a term like this originates that freak the shit out of me and its always the eyes and nothing more that idnetifies them. All the cars and clothes and all that shit is just window dressing and most people are decent.But at the center of it, at the horrible core I do believe there is an evil gang element at work in some people who fall under this label.

So... in answer to my question, then, you identify people as "chav" by "[something in] the eyes and nothing more"? What characteristic of peoples' eyes causes you to identify them as "chav"? Try to be specific here.

As for situational factors it is not anything to do with class but then someone outside looking in could say the same thing about the whole situation when in fact there is no real middle class here, its such an employment blackspot. Looking at hundreds of people each night who dress like this and seeing maybe a group of about 5 who seem to relish in being put down by the outside world.Who are proud to be everything society doesnt want and fears.

You haven't given any examples here of situations in which you might identify someone as "chav" - and you seem now to be talking about how people dress. Wasn't it something in the eyes rather than a particular mode of dress? Let's forget about anyone's perceptions of class and what people "seem to relish" and go back to my question: are there common situational factors when this happens?

My use of the word chav could be a wanky bigot looking down at people or the fact that Im simply not evolved enough to disengage with people I live around.Nearly the same thing really.

Possibly, but that's not what I asked. What I asked was:

What are your feelings about the people you identify in this way?

What do you think your use of the concept "chav" says about you, if anything?

Does it reflect any underlying assumptions or even prejudices?

Try to separate these questions and address them individually. Talk about what goes on in your head when you're in situations where you decide someone is "chav". Don't tell me what they're thinking; tell me what you're thinking in such a situation.
 
 
Ganesh
13:53 / 16.11.06
Only in an outfit that is chav

Not simply the eyes, then? Seems like there's more to it than that. Which outfits cause you to identify people as "chav"?
 
 
Joggy Yoghurt
13:57 / 16.11.06
Yes it is the outfit but many many people dress like that. Thats not basis enough for identification, it is the eyes. I reckon anyone who's been beaten up a few times knows those eyes off by heart and only ever sees them in an outfit that could be called chav.God it is an ugly word
 
 
Ganesh
13:58 / 16.11.06
Yes it is the outfit but many many people dress like that. Thats not basis enough for identification, it is the eyes. I reckon anyone who's been beaten up a few times knows those eyes off by heart and only ever sees them in an outfit that could be called chav.God it is an ugly word

Again:

Which outfits?

Which characteristics of the eyes?

Be specific, please.
 
 
Joggy Yoghurt
14:04 / 16.11.06
I can't describe the eyes, you just have to know, something dead and black. No comprehension of pain being inflicted even as it is being done. You all know the clothes. In the city is baseball caps and tracksuit tops, tight jeans,runners.Here it is tight jeans, often white shirts with blue lines (very popular). But so many people dress like that, so many ordinary people
 
 
jentacular dreams
14:04 / 16.11.06
Sav and quintum have a point. Ned, townie, chav, pikey. The concept has been around for a long time. And I would also argue that it's driven by more than just the presence of a baseball cap, that body language and other personality signifiers also play a role. Ultimately, I think the term is also often (though not exclusively) synonymous with a slightly aggresive outlook. I'm not sure if this helps with the definition though, as the aggressive outlook may well be a result of the label and the feeling of [real/imagined] persecution rather than the cause.

And yes, when it comes to the materialism thing, the user of the term may be making a hypocritical judgement, but at the risk of haus-baiting, given we all do hypocritical things at times, isn't it quite hypocritical to label someone else as one?
 
 
Joggy Yoghurt
14:10 / 16.11.06
well it can't be just the clothes but that is so often the outfit that this particular group of people dress in. For instance I am friends with people who would dress in that way but they would still identify certain people within that fashion as being chv and to be avoided generally
 
 
jentacular dreams
14:11 / 16.11.06
Wow, I missed a lot writing that. Sorry.

Sav, there are always a timy minority of people who enjoy the 'discomfort' of others. It's a power/self esteem issue. At the same time I've known some people who dress, act and seem like the "ultichav", but deep down are really good as gold. It's important to remember that for some people, a cold and hurtful attitude to others is actually just the best form of self defence. Take them out of that situation and the majority will leave the aggression behind as well (assuming they're given time to adapt).
 
 
Ganesh
14:11 / 16.11.06
I can't describe the eyes, you just have to know, something dead and black.

So, to answer the question in this thread's title, it would appear that there is no general definition of "chav". The single defining feature you are able to advance is indescribable eyes that "you just have to know"...

No comprehension of pain being inflicted even as it is being done.

Without recourse to telepathy, you cannot know another person's "comprehension of pain".

You all know the clothes. In the city is baseball caps and tracksuit tops, tight jeans,runners.Here it is tight jeans, often white shirts with blue lines (very popular). But so many people dress like that, so many ordinary people

Indeed. So it would appear that your own definition of "chav" would be people dressed like ordinary people, but with indescribable eyes. So far, this isn't really a definition which would work for anyone other than Rural Savage.

The other questions were:

What are your feelings about the people you identify in this way?

What do you think your use of the concept "chav" says about you, if anything?

Does it reflect any underlying assumptions or even prejudices?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:13 / 16.11.06
No, obviously it isn't. If I say that somebody else is breathing, my status as a breather does not materially affect the rightness or wrongness of that conclusion, does it? That's dreadful Haus-baiting, bees.

Oddly enough, the last people I was beaten up by weren't wearing baseball caps, and as far as I can recall their eyes were just sort of eye-like. As such, I'm still a bit confused. There are chavs and chavs, and the chavs are probably all right, but the chavs are terrible, and you can tell which is a chav and which is a chav by their eyes. Is that about right?
 
 
Ganesh
14:13 / 16.11.06
It's sounding to me that, in this particular context, "chav" = "ordinary-clothed people Rural Savage fears or doesn't like, based on the indescribable appearance of their eyes".
 
 
Joggy Yoghurt
14:15 / 16.11.06
I can't lay out my answers like a textbook for you. All you can possibly achieve by breaking down in such a way is to make it look as if the thing we're talking about doesn't actually exist at all when we all know it does and everyone, everyone has identified it at some point.
 
  

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