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Midnighter...

 
  

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sleazenation
20:15 / 07.11.06
Isn't the problem with The Midnighter and Apollo that the very core of it all they are is a gay Batman and Superman.

The closest thing they have to a character trait is their sexuality, beyond that they are cyphers, literally - they were grown in vats as part of a JLA analogue. And rather than flesh them out into characters, it seems that writers have just continued to use them as cyphers.

Is it better to have visible homosexual cyphers or a lack of out and proud homosexual characters whatsoever?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:14 / 07.11.06
If this isn't rotting the thread too much, I'm with the Delano haterz here. I'm not sure if anyone's ever got John Constantine quite right since Alan Moore (and, to be fair, writing that character as a lead rather than a guest star would create it's own set of problems) but as attempts go, the tree-hugging, Z-list beat poet that Jamie Delano brought into the world (I'm guessing Delano's writing style was being referenced in Garth Ennis' treatment of Nigel, in his run,) was really a bit weak.

I'm not saying Delano's Hellblazer is directly responsible, but the kind of thinking outlined there monthly is pretty much exactly the reason why the Left is no longer an operative force in UK politics, IMVHO.
 
 
The Falcon
22:35 / 07.11.06
The thing is, as I've said, it is kind of a landmark - many years too late, I'm sure, but mainstream comics, eh? baby steps - and I wonder who actually would have been appropriate to write the series? Robert 'Codename: Knockout' Rodi and Phil 'Otherworld' Jiminez are the only two gay script-guys I'm aware of in mainstream comics, but neither has terribly much cachet and could, conceivably, consider an offer to do the title somewhat aggravating. Who's handled gay superheroes well? I hear Allan Heinberg's Young Avengers is decent, but it sounds a world away from the neolib interventionism, ultraviolence &c. requisite for a Midnighter comic.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:37 / 07.11.06
Umm, I love the Delano Hellblazers. And I did indeed read the first fifteen or so again very recently. Yeah, the Thatcher-demons one is embarrassing, but... it's a lot less embarrassing that some of the shit that's come thereafter. And some of them are great. "Waiting For The Man" was wicked, for a start. Likewise "When Johnny Comes Marching Home". And the fucking "Family Man".

I liked the Fear Machine stuff. It wasn't as good, maybe, but it was still good. And this was at a time when Gaiman was being hailed as the High Pope Uber-fucking-Alles of comics? And we're complaining about hippy shit?

We should really get back to talking about Garth Ennis writing Midnighter about now, I reckon.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:39 / 07.11.06
(last post was in response to Alex... I realise we actually HAVE now, and will not do the off-topic shouting anymore).
 
 
Tom Coates
23:12 / 07.11.06
The thing that annoys me is that gay people basically have two storylines most of the time - one is a combination of 'coming out is hard' and 'how do I convince society OR MYSELF that I'm actually normal' and the other is 'crap I have AIDS and I'm going to die - how the fuck am I going to reconcile myself to that?'

There are in fact, very few people who spend any time at all on the bit in between coming out and dying of AIDS, a bit that I'm currently finding quite a lot of personal drama in. Now it's pretty clear to me that a dedicated series about the Midnighter actually has to appeal to straight men in a solid idenficatory way, and that maybe exploring things that are particularly interesting from a gay perspective - getting older in a culture designed for young people, watching your friends have kids, havingn access to relatively easy if often unfulfilling sex, having trouble dealing with your own difference, not meeting people in the office who you fancy, trying to work out when to bring up the whole thing in the office, etc. etc - isn't going to fit too well in such a periodical. I understand that. An actually gay midnighter comic might actually be only really of interest to gay people for all I know.

If that's the case then maybe don't do one. In the meantime, the treatment of gay characters in other media has improved enormously and is way more sophisticated. Watch a few episodes of the US Queer as Folk and you see characters going through drug problems, dealing with impotency, forming interesting relationship dynamics, meeting bug chasers, getting cancer, having weird and awkward relationships with their familes, running businesses, going clubbing, getting disillusioned with the scene, having sex in public, having tensions with other people in the same community who have a different political stance (assimilationists versus separatists, quiet traditional politicos versus street-based activists). And more generally questions like how to gay people stop looking like victims, or the existence of feminine straight men or scientific experiments to weed out gay fucking sheep - there's endless stuff here that could emerge out of a team member that could be enormously interesting and provide well-rounded insight, whether or not it be sympathetic.

So yeah, they're cyphers at the moment because they're trophies and spoofs - they're sort of one-dimensional joke characters designed to make Superman and Batman look stupid by intimating that they're gay - that have gone serious. They've been written, at least as far as I can tell, as if their sexuality is an issue to be debated or talked about endlessly, rather than as one aspect of their character that should help influence their reactions to things and occasionally motivate story. It's just a waste of some valuable storytelling possibilities, if you ask me.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
00:01 / 08.11.06
Tom: The thing that annoys me is that gay people basically have two storylines most of the time - one is a combination of 'coming out is hard' and 'how do I convince society OR MYSELF that I'm actually normal' and the other is 'crap I have AIDS and I'm going to die - how the fuck am I going to reconcile myself to that?'

Oddly, the tack taken with Midnighter on these things is part of why I really liked him as a character, originally. I don't tend to favour the "heavy combat grunty grr" characters that often, but Midnighter has never demonstrated (at least, again, originally) any concern over the issue of his queerness or whether or not to reveal it to people, and his body's adapted to fight off things like illness - that one bit about him fighting off HIV in six weeks, while being part of his downward spiral, thoroughly established him as evading those sort of storylines.

That and Midnighter's lack of desire to convince people he's normal contributed to the Authority's intention of changing the world rather than just saving it. Keeping in mind that it was all very late Nineties/Early 00s.

...which basically all means that for all his tendency to be portrayed as a cypher, Midnighter has such potential, and I'm not just talking about as a gay character but as a character, period, that they're choosing not to explore.
 
 
osymandus
06:19 / 08.11.06
Having been a big fan of both charcters since their introduction in Stormwatch (and no their not Vat grown people (or originaly) just "constructed" suber humans)
And being an Ellis fan i wonder if while being on the surface homosexual versions of Superman an Batman , there seemed to be that extra twist .
The their both living weapons , neither eat, sleep, breathe (or if i remember from the first stormwatch comic "i cant even remeber the shape of a headache").

In this term their actually no longer "human" per sa and could the original trick be its not about gender labels at all ?? The scope for charcter insite and developement is rather more intresting then the well troden one about well any version of sexuilty ??

Also a side note. if you were to build a person who can overcome "opppents" with enchanments etc , surly it should have the capabilty to defend it self ergo, removing the annoying plot line of oh sorry we turned of your combant enchancments agian beccause we couldnt come up with a decent/entertaining/make sense story line to combat the chacarter with.
 
 
Tom Coates
07:41 / 08.11.06
The other thing that drives me mad about super hero books like The Authority is that the characters never do anything for one another. I mean, you've got the bloody engineer on the Carrier - why the hell she doesn't upgrade Midnighter or create some useful bits of tech for them to use occasionally is beyond me. Similarly, the Doctor should be able to do some kind of ambient enchantments on the rest of them. And then there's the carrier itself, actually the main reason that they have significant power at all in the world - it's a ship full of insane alien technology that they barely ever use except to teleport places and travel between worlds. That's understandable as a plot device up to a point, but then you just start wondering... It's like in the original run. They hit Gaizen Gamorra with the fucking ship and then ten episodes later discover the ship has lots of guns. Er. Lots of guns are helpful, right?
 
 
Quantum
10:01 / 08.11.06
neither eat, sleep, breathe

Yes they do. They don't *have* to, if it's handy for continuity or plot or making them look hard, but they're often depicting doing all those things.
Not having read it, can I ask someone why Apollo doesn't feature in Midnighter?
 
 
Quantum
10:05 / 08.11.06
Tom- I agree, but it's just another side effect of too many writers. I often get irritated by characters getting trapped in dangerous situations they could easily have escaped a few issues before (by saying 'door' f'rinstance) or nobody explaining why the whole team isn't supplied with Engineer healing nanites or spirit allies or combat implants etc.
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
11:03 / 08.11.06
It's not a plot oversight, it's a stylistic thing. Think of each superhero's individual power and gimmick as a colour. The colours can be put next to each other to create new designs (Wolverine and Colossus' fastball special) but if you mix all the powers together everyone ends up a dullish brown...
 
 
ghadis
11:10 / 08.11.06
Not having read it, can I ask someone why Apollo doesn't feature in Midnighter?

Basically, Midnighter has been kidnapped, had a bomb implanted in his chest, and is forced into being a time travelling hitman.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
11:35 / 08.11.06
And because Ennis hates superheroes, and can just about cope with the Midnighter because he's a leather clad super sadist.

Actually the super-hate is one of the most boring aspects of Ennis' work. Marshall law, to my mind, was a far more interesting dismemberment of the Superkind.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:40 / 08.11.06
Although that went to poop right after the 'Fear and Loathing' story.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
11:42 / 08.11.06
"Takes Manhattan" was fun.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
12:50 / 08.11.06
"Assholes Assemble!"

I enjoyed Kingdom of the Blind too. But yes, you're right, it did get very shit later on.
 
 
osymandus
13:35 / 08.11.06
"Yes they do. They don't *have* to, if it's handy for continuity or plot or making them look hard, but they're often depicting doing all those things. "

I wouldnt have said it making them look hard . But yes more a case of too many writers as pointed out .

Completly agree on lack of being able to cope with "superheros" on Ennis part . Becoming the anti-fan boy just to prove how ridicilous the caped people are gets tired v quickly (and usualy another case of changing powers people for plot device "Punisher Kills the Marvel universe " anyon ??"

I disagree that Heros would become sludgy brown if similar powers were added . And thats not really what seems to be mentioned.

More a logical (in the point of the Authority as an exmaple) you have constructed powers with possible "turn off" abilites known by your enimies . You have bith the fonts of almost complete human knowledge , lets make the baddies second guess for a change.

Be like Superman lead lining his costume , or wearing protective runes . Doesnt detract from a charcter really, just makes a writer think abit more .
 
 
Triplets
18:16 / 08.11.06
It's not a plot oversight, it's a stylistic thing. Think of each superhero's individual power and gimmick as a colour. The colours can be put next to each other to create new designs (Wolverine and Colossus' fastball special) but if you mix all the powers together everyone ends up a dullish brown...

Mostly true.

Also, from playing RPGs there's usually an unspoken rule that each character in the group has 'niche protection' - one's good at hitting stuff, one's good at building stuff, one's good at band-aids etc. This is why there's only one laser blaster, flyer and bouncy furball in the X-Men at any given time...*

Which doesn't exactly explain why the Engineer can't build Midnighter a decent firewall. One reason is why Superman forgets his heat vision when fighting ICE ROBOTS FROM THE BOTTLE PLANET OF PLUTO: it creates the illusion of challenge instead the tough task of coming up with something that's actually threatening.

Countering that, it would actually expand the range of "fuck yeah!" moments for characters.

"We bought Bendix's black files. Want to know where your off-switch is?"

"Had it removed yesterday" *IN THE FACE*



* "But what about Jean and Charles?!". Ah! But Jean is essentially Charles' mobility-capable field agent avatar (shagging Scott by proxy).
 
 
Triplets
18:18 / 08.11.06
Also, having Midnighter/Hawksmoore protected by magic runes (/variation) would spoil their thematic purity. Midnighter's the Man of Deadly Science, Jack was rebuilt with Alien Tech. The same reason you won't really see the Doctor using nanotech or bionics. Niche protection and iconic purity.
 
 
osymandus
19:21 / 08.11.06
Nothing wrong with then trying to point out , that maybe, just their the same things coming from different view points

Also i suppose it does really remove the traditional Villian/evil genius of their traditional "fear". As they become as Dr Manhatten points out "Just the most intellegent cockrouch " (im paraphrasing badly )

Another slightly off topic part as well . Why do traditional Soiler /strong guys are always assumed to have far less willpower/ focus then phyiscaly frialer but psychotic telepaths ?? (Gladitor /Cassamdra Nova being an exapmle here ). Last i check just just as much will and focus to bend your mind and body to do what you tell it do ??

More bitch slapping of psychos with intellegent twists i say !!
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:00 / 09.11.06
Why do traditional Soiler /strong guys are always assumed to have far less willpower/ focus then phyiscaly frialer but psychotic telepaths ??

One argument would be that it takes more willpower to hone your telepathic talents than it does to just be strong. In Gladiator's case though his powers are based around his confidence (basically he's as "super" as he thinks he is), Cassandra crippled him by pointing out that he'd utterly failed to project the Shi'ar Empire from her (and probably gave him a few telepathic nudges as well).

Still, I don't see it being a constant thing that tanks get pwned by evil teeps every time. Look at superstrong characters like Hulk or The Thing for instance. Often the super-strong characters are presented as being, if anything, more resistant to telepathy.

Thematically though it does make sense that the super-strong hero, invulnerable to physical harm, will be threatened by a villain whose power side-steps that brute strength completely. Conversely it is often the case that the villain is even weaker physically than the average baseline. Bit of a cliche these days of course.
 
 
osymandus
09:57 / 09.11.06
I'd considered that as the reason. I think i was using Gladiator as more the trained/soilder type rather then your personification of the warthful ID (which i suppose covers Wolverine as well ). An already personified and trained will. A put of plot hole that Gladiator , able to scan and understand his own weaknesses yet ignoring that rather big one

Dont remember Ben J showing any particular resistance (mind again a trained "soilder").

Maybe we need more Zen like minds . Stick v's Cassandra could be highly amusing
 
 
Evil Scientist
08:42 / 20.11.06
Just read the first issue of Midnighter and, whilst the "fwaagh!" and other anti-gay slurs are totally unnecessary, I think the series has a bit of potential. But basically I think I'm going to have to wait for a few more to come out before I commit to saying whether it's any good or not.

Stuff I did like, the "I'm not a lover. I'm not a friend. I'm not a father." stuff, and Midnighter randomly picking a trouble-spot to go and kill people in. Not necessarily because it's the right thing to do, maybe rather because he's built to do it and at least if he's killing "bad guys" there's less of an ethical problem for him.

The homophobic stuff is basically being used as a very lazy way of showing that the bad guys are bad guys (or, in Kev's case, that he's a total cock). However I do feel that Ennis's portrayal of the Midnighter over in the Kev series was relatively good aside from that (as in Stormwatch: Team Achilles, Midnighter seems to be the only member of the Authority who'll actually sit down and try to talk things out with those he has a problem with).

I think the discussion he and Kev have at the end of the second book was actually pretty good. (I was wondering if we were supposed to think that the guy "sent" to rescue him was Kev initially).

As I say though, I'll give this a few more months to see how it pans out.
 
 
This Sunday
17:21 / 21.11.06
Actually, I have to say I really did like Midnighter (and most of the rest of the team, for the most part) in the Kev stuff. Much more succinctly Midnighter than a lot of non-Ellis stuff.
 
 
FinderWolf
18:24 / 27.11.06
Artist Chris Sprouse recently said at a con that the "Kill Hitler" story would deal with what ol' Alfy was up to at the end of WW I, which is an interesting twist on the time-worn 'Kill Hitler' story, at least....he said there are only a few existing (and very grainy) pics of him at that time in history. Most Kill Hitler stories take place during WW II...

I want to give this book a few more issues before I make a determination about it (i.e. drop from my list or continue to enjoy).
 
 
Chew On Fat
11:37 / 29.11.06
Off the topic a little, but Stephen Fry's 'time-travel to kill Hitler' story 'Making History' chose to focus on the WWI era Hitler. (remembering it now, he used a very novel method of wiping Hitler from history)

For what its worth, I enjoy Ennis's Midnighter but the depiction of soldiers and mercenaries peppering their conversation regarding a gay man with homophobic remarks seems to ring true to me.

I'm not totally comfortable reading it however and Ennis would seem to be having his PC cake and ingesting a homophobic one at the same time.
 
 
Evil Scientist
14:06 / 29.11.06
I'm not totally comfortable reading it however and Ennis would seem to be having his PC cake and ingesting a homophobic one at the same time.

He will, no doubt, be invoking a classic "Starr defense" of "The characters are assholes, of course they're homophobes. I'm not though. Anyway watch Midnighter righteously kick their heads off!".
 
 
ginger
13:48 / 08.12.06
a garth ennis comic in which french people get beaten up?

how novel.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
16:39 / 08.12.06
I don't know why, but I'm really enjoying the Midnighter. Maybe it's in lieu of 'The Boys' awfulness, but I'm finding it a pretty decent romp. As yet no lectures on respect or rants about piercings. I don't know, maybe my tolerance was low, but still. I look forward to seeing where it ends up.
 
 
Jack Fear
18:45 / 12.12.06
So. Chuck Dixon is going to be writing a MIDNIGHTER/GRIFTER special.

That's social conservative (read raving homophobe> Chuck Dixon; the man who once wrote, "I don’t want to expect to be able to shield my kids from the subject of homosexuality as the media seems intent on bringing into my home and nothing short of cutting the electricity and boarding the windows will stop it. But I DON’T want my kids reading about it in comics."

Because, you know, there are so many positive gay role models in comics.

I'm sure Chuck will be handling the character with all the dignity and grace to which we have become accustomed by the work of Mark Millar and Garth Ennis.
 
 
lord nuneaton savage
08:26 / 13.12.06
"I don’t want to expect to be able to shield my kids from the subject of homosexuality"

"I don't want to expect to be able..."? Homophobia aside I'd say if you've got someone who constructs sentences like that writing a major title you have every right to be very worried.

I don't want my kids reading that kind of poor grammar in comics.
 
 
Triplets
13:39 / 13.12.06
That's the problem with homophobes, they can't process grammar.
 
 
Janean Patience
15:08 / 13.12.06
God, how great would it be if that were true. Two of my favourite hate groups united in one easily despisable package.
 
 
Quantum
17:56 / 13.12.06
A MIDNIGHTER/GRIFTER special? Wouldn't that be appalling no matter who wrote it?
 
  

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