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Midnighter...

 
  

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Tom Coates
17:47 / 05.11.06
Things I'm weirded out about in Midnight #1. I'm weirded out by the fact that everyone talks about AIDS in reference to him. I'm weirded out that most of his violent actions are weird analogies to anal or oral sex. I'm weirded out by the way his sexuality is treated, not as incidental (which I would probably not like enormously) and not as a motivator to the plot (Ennis doesn't seem to have the slightest idea what might interest or concern a gay man, but instead basically as a hook around which to have other people shout and insult him for him to resist. I find the treatment of his sexuality ... interesting .. in that he's not a flowery exhibitionist interior decorator, but at the same time troubling in that he's a cypher, an aggressive victim and little but...
 
 
sleazenation
18:18 / 05.11.06
I dunno, what were you expecting from a comic about Midnighter, especially one penned by Garth Ennis?
 
 
Mario
18:21 / 05.11.06
It could easily be an issue of Punisher.
 
 
This Sunday
19:17 / 05.11.06
Wasn't there actually a kinda response-to-Ennis issue of Wolverine a few years ago, where Punisher is defeated by being accused of being gay? Bodybuilding magazines under the bed or something?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:04 / 05.11.06
You're thinking of this.

Tom, how does this comic compare with Midnighter's other big gay adventures in Mark Millar's Authority era and Ennis's various Kev miniseries? I've pretty much marked Ennis as not having anything interesting to say since issue 27 of Preacher so any comments about him not being anything other than
crude, boorish and repetative really don't surprise me.
 
 
The Falcon
23:03 / 05.11.06
Yeah, I dunno - there were like four, five incidences of homophobic comments ('fruit', 'fahhhgg..', etc.) aimed at him. By baddies, obviously, but really. I already knew he was gay, you know? And basically, the 'AIDS' comment seems extremely likely to be a set-up for that guy to earn an extra specially brutal death down the line.

It wasn't great. Actually, Punisher's about the only decent thing Ennis is doing now (not read Battler Briton.) I need to get some more trades of that, to remind me what exactly the point of Ennis is. The Boys was just - wow, there's a darkside to superheroes no-one considered. Note the Justice League analogues only degrade women so far. Rotten stuff.
 
 
The Falcon
23:13 / 05.11.06
In fairness, weaponry is generally quite phallic as is, and he does kick a tank shell in the face. But that's about it.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
00:19 / 06.11.06
I do quite enjoy some of 'rath 'nnis' work at the moment, but in, his mind, he's Quentin Tarrantino, and, in fact. he's the guy who writes the dialogue for 'Sid The Sexist' in Viz. The reality, as ever, lies somewhere in between. But it's not as if it's all that big of a leap, really.

As much as I like 'The Punisher,' and dressed up us him on Halloween, I can't help feeling that anyone who's pepared to pick up a regular pay cheque on the basis of writing a series called 'Battler Britain' pretty much deserves to be shot as a degenerate.

Though I've no doubt that someone that 'rath knows know someone who knew someone who was vaguely involved with somebody else who blew up a toilet or something in Belfast in the Seventies, his writing, to me, doesn't seem like the work of a man who's ever seen combat.

And if he hasn't done, then why does he go on about this stuff? I don't suppose anyone would enjoy having an anti-tank weapon fired up their jacksie, or whatever the trop de jour is, and yet he seems to have ... well a fair amount of this material on tap, as it were.

I mean he's probably a nice guy, and so on, and his run on 'Hellblazer' was pretty good, until it got out of hand, but perhaps now the kindest thing would be to read his work in the shop rather than handing over the caah concerned, and simply forget him!!! Until he remembers himself ...
 
 
Tom Coates
07:32 / 06.11.06
I think certainly I'm not necessarily interested in seeing Midnighter having some kind of perfect relationship to make a political point, but I would be interested in seeing some plot that derives from character, and a part of that character is clearly his sexuality. I mean, there's all kinds of ways you could take that character and ask interesting and controversial questions. You could reference the incidence of depression, bullying and homelessness in teenage gay men and women. You could talk about the stories a couple of years ago where gay people were suggesting carrying guns so that people never thought of them as victims again. I mean, one thing that always drives me mad is that Midnighter and Apollo never really have any responses to the gay jokes that people aim at them except to stick pneumatic drills up their arses. I mean, you're gay for thirty odd years, you figure out how to deal with some of that stuff, particularly when you're a super-powered killing machine without any enormous need to feel vulnerable.
 
 
werwolf
12:40 / 06.11.06
not to defende ennis - i sort of like his over-the-top idiocy... sometimes... and sometimes i absolutely dislike it - but i don't think that ennis is a writer who gives a toss about depth of character and so on.

if you look at his work (even his best work), it's always totally gaudy, thrashy, one-track-minded iconic gals and mates going about some uncanny business. sometimes that fact is a bit better camouflaged than others, but it's always the same.

i don't want to say that ennis can't write deeper characters, but i would say that he just doesn't want to.
so my 2 cents say that i'm not surprised nor disappointed about what he did with midnighter, i just want to know where it goes. can still become entertaining and interesting, with a bit of luck.

it's a bit unrealistic to have any higher hopes for any ennis material other than him being the irish keith giffen and just not giving a toss about style or content.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:56 / 06.11.06
Tom- I've not actually read Midnighter, but I suspect on his past form that if you're hoping for Ennis to do anything even vaguely socially responsible with the concept of gay superheroes, you're pretty much on a hiding to nothing.
 
 
This Sunday
18:40 / 06.11.06
I, for one, would like to see 'Sociably Responsible Ennis' writing. Because it would scare the crap out of me.
 
 
Spaniel
18:42 / 06.11.06
Yes, I think Ennis is very capable when it comes to the formal aspects of writing - he knows a good narrative beat when he sees one, is good at creating drama, is no slouch at pacing, and has a good line in endings* - and he is capable of good characterisation, but the man ain't the most socially responsible dude out there.


*Not that everything he writes is well crafted, mind. Far from it. Although I tend to think that even on a bad day he's a lot better than most of the writers out there in comicland
 
 
makingbombs
04:12 / 07.11.06
Wasn't the final message of Preacher that whatever you do, whatever pain, trauma, torture, or death-for-laughs you deal out, remember:

DON'T.
HIT.
GIRLS.

(Not that women didn't get their share of abuse in that comic, too, but it was seemed like his John-Wayne-values boiled down to that one point and nothing else in the end...)
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:54 / 07.11.06
Flicking through it recently before unloading it on a friend I realised I'd forgotten how reactionary it was, strip away the humorous gonads-based violence and swearing and it's practically conservative.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:21 / 07.11.06
I, for one, would like to see 'Sociably Responsible Ennis' writing. Because it would scare the crap out of me.

Troubled Souls. A bit preachy, but certainly socially responsible.

It's not the Ennis can't be socially responsible, it's more that he chooses not to be - which is fine. Hitman, for example, showed that he can do gross-out funny, violent, tasteless humour without becoming either hopelessly obssesed with showing the other boys how far he can pull his arse open (Dicks) or utterly up his own vanity-project see previously referenced (Preacher). There are plenty of other people who can be socially responsible.

The issue here is possibly more about whether an inept handling of homosexuality leads to a bad Midnighter comic. Not entirely surprisingly, in the hands of Mark Millar Apollo and the Midnighter became two very good friends who also happened to be a therapeutic device to explore the author's issues about anal penetration. If I recall correctly, even taboo-busting Ellis, happy to show other superhero combinations in bed with each other, had his big moment being the Midnighter... kissing Apollo. For two people who have been in a relationship for presumably about a decade, this is not a huge shock. From what I've read of Garth Ennis' Authority, Apollo and the Midnighter's relationship is mainly used for comedy value - the Midnighter is butch, Apollo prissy. Lots of people, including the Midnighter, talk a lot about them liking sex with men, but they don't actually have it.

And, because Ennis characters express either their heroism and/or their villainy by being ornery and prejudiced or posh and prejudiced, everybody is constantly calling the Midnighter a poof. In the course of "The Magnificent Kevin", the Midnighter is abused on the grounds of his sexuality (and solely on the grounds of his sexuality) by

S

P

O

I

L

E

R

S

The eponymous hero, the eponymous hero's villainous ex-chum, the children he is rescuing, other members of the Authority IIRC and, in fact, pretty much everyone he encounters.

Of course, you can say that Kevin is an antihero - a largely cowardly and often morally dubious everyman, as well as a basically parodic representative of working-class English culture (we see him, in flashback, having sex in a back alley with an overweight woman who upbraids him for making her drop her kebab with overenthusiastic coitus), so of course he will be prejudiced. However, it does seem too be the only thing Ennis can think of to do with the Midnighter (along with "ah-hah! Your combat enhancements have been disabled! Now, despite your special forces training and decades of combat experience, you are just another queer... to be BASHED!"), and in particular the Midnighter's sexuality, is to have other people talk about it, and aggressively nudge-nudge-wink-wink-Cassidy-Cassidy deny that it is theirs or that they want to hear about it. I can't imagine that will change significantly in the course of this series.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:26 / 07.11.06
I think you said Ellis when you meant Ennis a few times there.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:43 / 07.11.06
Once, by the looks of it -the other time I meant Ellis (Warren). Will correct.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
13:43 / 07.11.06
Haus: If I recall correctly, even taboo-busting Ellis, happy to show other superhero combinations in bed with each other, had his big moment being the Midnighter.. kissing Apollo. For two people who have been in a relationship for presumably about a decade, this is not a huge shock.

I can't provide a source at the moment, but I seem to recall reading something about how Ellis had been keen to show a bit more affection between the two, but the Company got a bit edgy about the whole thing, being as how Apollo and the Midnighter were obvious parallels of Superman and Batman. And for the most part, weren't they usually too busy having Teh Widescreen Violence to have any of them in bed with anyone, during Ellis's run? It wasn't really until Millar showed up with Quitely that the hanky-panky started in anything but inference.

Not sure I can even really be bothered with Midnighter right now, even with the Sprouse artwork - Ennis's queer-bashing characters & routines just seem, if nothing else, a bit dull - nothing that hasn't been pulled on the character in some form before - I can't even be bothered to be properly offended by them. Just a bit too bad playground. Anyone have any numbers on how well this sold? I looked at The Boys in the shop, once, got to the superhero hazing scene, paused, felt unsettled, and put it down.

I'm curious if Mid will be in Morrison's Authority, or if he's been sectioned off from the team for this, completely. If he's included, there's a chance we'll get a decent portrayal of the pair of them together, depending.
 
 
This Sunday
14:42 / 07.11.06
I haven't meant to put out that I don't like Ennis' work, in general, because I very much do. But it's foremost entertainment, and on top of that, it's fiction. FICTION fiction, even.

'Preacher' boiled down to a climax of: It's a western. It follows the rules and doesn't break character as a frame.

'Hitman' was just that, the story of a hitman, who happened to live in the DCU, so he's got superpowers and can buy Green Lantern a drink.

'Sociably responsible' in a sense, meant to me a more abject preachiness that Ennis ever really manages. Something like 'They Never Get Drunk But Stay Sober' could skew that way, if one were so inclined, but there's little of 'Fury' that could be wrestled over into the I-will-now-pontificate-a-moral. Not functionally.

I'm not looking for morals in Troma films, either, though, y'know? Not the place and I doubt Ennis is particularly interested in turning it into that place.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:51 / 07.11.06
As I said, Troubled Souls.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
15:57 / 07.11.06
I was just re-reading the first Kev TPB last week (Kev / More Kev) and wincing a bit. Ennis' core message isn't that it's wrong to call homosexuals "mincing poofters" and worse, but only when they're standing right behind you and are strong enough to beat you up.

The more time passes, the more Ennis seems to fall back on a lazy smug-everyman stance, where characters like Kev and even ol' Frank are the reader proxy to wince and sneer at heroic excesses, well-intentioned foolishness, institutional corruption and of course PC gone maaaaaaad. There's a philosophy underpinning it that starts to show through from Preacher onward, which is that the strong and righteous prosper and the weak deserve befalls them, even if they're shlubs trying their best, because they're weak.

It's a Hard Truth that Hard Men must face, and Hard Men must do the Hard Thing in Hard Times.

It's reinforced by constantly having Ennis's leading men surrounded by incompetents and weirdos, which was a bit of a novelty ten years ago but now, again, smacks of a lazy shortcut to make a protagonist look competent.

I still get a kick out of some of his stuff, but it gets more and more one-trick-ponyish the more I see. I might check out Midnighter if I can borrow a copy from a friend, but for now I'll pass.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
16:43 / 07.11.06
Ennis is heading for a Frank 'the Tank' Miller style breakdown I swear. All the worst elements of his writing (thinly veiled homophobia, macho chest beating etc) are coming to the fore. I've flicked through a couple of issues of The Boys, and the only woman I could spot was getting buggered by a man she loathes but can't resist. Nice one Garth.
I like The Punisher, and against all expectation quite enjoyed the Midnighter, but the juvenile need to refer to the fact of his sexuality was tiresome. Especially as, as Tom stated, there was no attempt to do anything remotely interesting with it.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:32 / 07.11.06
Haus- what I meant, really, when I brought up the "socially conscious" thing, was with regards to sexuality specifically.

I mean, I like Ennis (though- and I'll probably get burned for this- I think he fucked up Hellblazer something chronic), but have you read Adventures In The Rifle Brigade? I mean, some of it's dead funny, and it's pretty well done, but a lot of his jokes in there come straight out of the "bumming! It's hilaaaarious!" school of comedy's first-term textbook.
 
 
Quantum
17:42 / 07.11.06
All this talk of bumsex reminds me of this bit of thread, and my Ennis extract there which bears repeating here;

I just read an Ennis Hellblazer last night (Son of Man) where a man gets bumsexed to death by a bad gay, a demon with the cunningly descriptive name 'Fuckpig'. Who shouts
"Sodomite! Do you know what we do to you in hell?"


Garth's Midnighter is less than subtle, you say? Colour me astonished.
 
 
Quantum
17:43 / 07.11.06
I think he fucked up Hellblazer something chronic Stoat

Yep, I agree wholeheartedly.
 
 
Ganesh
17:59 / 07.11.06
Thirding the Ennis-fucked-up-Hellblazer motion. For me, John Constantine was England, particularly London. Transposing him to Ireland seemed pointless, and giving him a long-term(ish) girlfriend pinned down his sexuality in a way I really didn't like.

I'm always confusing my Ennises and Ellises, though. Which one was responsible for the execrable Dangerous Habits (or whatever the Constantine-gets-cancer thing was called) arc?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:12 / 07.11.06
That was Ennis. Ellis did Haunted, which was also fucking rubbish. I mean, I enjoyed Ennis's Hellblazer, I just didn't think it was particularly good Hellblazer. And I definitely didn't think it was good John Constantine.
 
 
The Falcon
18:15 / 07.11.06
What is good Hellblazer, then?! Delano? I dare you to go back and read those, then say that with a straight face.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:17 / 07.11.06
Ennis. Ellis did "Haunted", and a few one-shots, then left after his school shooting story was canned. Ennis then came back for "Son of Man", with the aforementioned sensitive treatment of alternative sexualities.
 
 
ghadis
18:27 / 07.11.06
Forths with Ennis on Hellblazer. Ennis did Dangerous Habits and it was all downhill from there in my opinion. Although that wasn't from a huge height to be honest. Hellblazer has always seemed like a comic that could be so much better that it has been.

Had a quick read of Midnighter today. It was okish i thought. I could only spot a couple of homophobic remarks (fruit and Faargh) and perhaps the aids comment could be seen as a bit dodgy (although if i recall rightly the Midnighter shrugged of Aids in 6 weeks just as he shruggs of a cold in minutes). I'm sure a decent writer could do a lot with the character but unfortunatly Ennis isn't a decent writer. I don't think i've been interested in him since Preacher issue 4 or something. Still, i'll read the next issue to see how it goes (but only because i work in a comic shop and don't have to shell out pence for it)
 
 
Ganesh
18:39 / 07.11.06
What is good Hellblazer, then?! Delano?

Yes, Delano. I quite liked John Smith's one-shot too.
 
 
ghadis
18:43 / 07.11.06
That John Smith one shot is my favourite Hellblazer story. One of the few times the title has worked. I also rate Morrisons attempt.
 
 
This Sunday
18:52 / 07.11.06
Neil Gaiman's short attempt was pretty good Constantine, even if it did miss the 'Hellblazer' mark as I'd come to expect it.

Anyhow, I for one liked parts of Ennis' run on the title. The Irishness didn't bother me a bit, since it struck me some time back that John Constantine's a character the author has to basically reshape every time a new writer takes him on. Nobody can do Moore's anymore, or Delano's, or Morrison's, and so on. You've got to write your own.
 
 
The Falcon
20:00 / 07.11.06
Tru fax! The John Smith Hellblazer is the most expensive comic I've ever bought, at a weighty £4. It's good, but I don't feel worth that much.

[I know we're veering way off-track, but stick with me here]

Delano... I just don't like Delano at all; I've only ever read 'Original Sins' and his Batman vs. Manbat, and I really disliked both. Purpler than a swollen bellend. Oh, there was a Hoist text story in the first Transformers annual. I think I liked that, but I was five. You don't really read them then, do you? Maybe look at the pictures. I think in part, it's about when you first read a character - I grew to love the trenchcoated misanthrope through, embarrassingly enough, the Gaiman Books of Magic trade and still recall that as being particularly good, haven't checked in years though. And then on to Ennis, much the same applies. I mean, obviously, all Garth really wants is his own line of Commando comics to write until forever, but the bits that mesh that with the supernatural in his HB stand out in the memory. I'm fairly certain his dialogue, in terms of having an ear for, is streets ahead too.

Reading Delano's relevant-to-Thatcherism metaphors in the 21st century - there's a yuppie demon, eh? - it was just embarrassing. I remember discussing this with yawn, who was defensive about the comic, saying it felt really sharp and scathing as a teen in the mid-80s; I can see it, I suppose, but it's just really horrible stuff to my mind. Maybe even if I'd read it as a teen in the 90s it'd've seemed good.

Returning from the symposium on Ennis as a whole, I've actually been checking past appearances of Midnighter, as written by others - I was drawn to the title by an article in The Scotsman, the sort Millar used to seem preternaturally good at getting in the local papers, which focussed on the blah-blah morality of having gay superheroes (after all, they're for kids, don'cha know?) - and really he's generally a bit of a cipher. A gay, dour Batman who kills people, pretty much. Which, you know, killing people probably circumvents the need for any other coping method with homophobia - the only exception is late in Millar's run where, ah, The Colonel calls him a 'poofy wanker' after he's killed the rest of the fauxthority, and he responds that he's not had a wank in years. Then kills him.

Ennis has tried to write positive homosexual characters before, most recently late on in his MK ongoing on The Punisher, where there was a town sheriff who was 'just a tough guy - a man's man - who happened to be gay', though again you had (clearly demarcated) baddies using this as an opportunity to exercise some anti-gay feeling. He does, despite one-time cutting-edge (for mainstream comics) credentials, however not strike as - to reiterate - the man for scripting the first ongoing superhero series (there was a Northstar mini, iirc) featuring a gay lead.
 
  

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