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The Legend Of Zelda

 
  

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iamus
21:30 / 04.11.06
So it's Zelda time again, and as per, I'm really pretty excited. With just over a month to go until release I'm reaching critical mass and I'm having to go about with my legs crossed.

Having tried to rectify the perceived problems with their N64 releases (not enough of them and too long between), Nintendo almost rushed their Gamecube Mario and Zelda installments out the door, and as a result we saw just why it is they take so long to make. While both games were head-and shoulders above the output of most other companies, it's arguable that neither had quite the sparkle that is expected of top-tier Nintendo product. Wind Waker especially seemed sold short on many aspects that you take for granted in Zelda design. There were not enough dungeons and there was too much back-tracking and deliberate stalling to artificially lengthen the experience. Ocarina of Time took a long, long time to make with many, many delays (to the vocal complaint of many fans) but was proclaimed (and still stands up as) one of the greatest games in the history of the medium.

So now Nintendo seem to have learned from their mistakes in the past two console generations, it seems they are rectifying the problems they've had in their recent attitudes to both Hardware and Software. Twilight Princess is a timely Wii launch title (holding back the N64 launch until Mario 64 was complete is often seen as being one of the major setbacks to that console) but has also been in gestation for a good while now. The effects are looking evident.

Nintendo seem to have pulled out all the stops to deliver the absolute and definitive Zelda experience. The usual hyperbole sets the game out as a 70-hour epic, bursting at the seams with content. Latest industry reports are confirming that this is no exaggeration. The game is indeed a big'un. Nintendo recently invited around 30 select members of the gaming press to each have a 10-hour playtest of the game from the beginning. None of the journalists made it close to the third dungeon.

Considering that in Zelda tradition it takes until after the third before the game proper begins, that's quite a statement. It's also been said that this one throws more distractions and items at you before the first dungeon than previous Zeldas would by the third. Nintendo say it only keeps getting bigger from there on. Their own translator and localisation manager says that on his second run-through, knowing what to do and where to go, skipping cut-scenes and focusing solely on the main story-essentials, 27 hours has only gotten him 2/3 of the way through.


I fully expect this game to kill me. But I think it'll be worth it.


The basic jist of the story has the Land of Hyrule being engulfed by the Twilight Realm (this game's addition to Zelda's familar two-world mechanic, first seen in A Link to the Past for the Snes), and Link, as ever, has to travel between the two wolrds (this time in both Human and Wolf form) to save Hyrule.

The first thing that springs to mind when I see videos of the game running is that Nintendo seem to be taking a cue from the likes of Ico and Shadow of the Colossus in terms of feeling and scope. The overworld looks absolutely massive, completely dwarfing Link and Epona as they ride through (it's apparently comparable in size to the ocean in The Wind Waker, but with terrain and architecture replacing the previous title's flat, featureless seas). It's very atmospherically lit too, and has a strong visual identity of its own, something that was a bit of a worry to me after abandoning Wind Waker's distinctive, big-eyed bright colours for a seemingly more generic, realstic style.

Developed for the Gamcube before being split between this and an enhanced Wii version, there's been a bit of humming-and-hawing amongst press as to whether Wiimote control is entirely suited to the game. Trade Show demonstrations have been a bit hiccupy and finicky apparently, suggesting that Nintendo have been having trouble justifying the shift in control other than it being what's expected.

Recent reports suggest these issues have been resolved. Link's movement is mapped to the Nunchuck attachment's analogue stick, projectile aiming is controlled by the Wiimote pointer, while sword swipes are also mimicked by swipes of the Wiimote. Everything now seems to be as intuitive as you'd expect from Nintendo control. The Wii version is also presented in 16:9 widescreen, and the entire game has been mirrored left for right to better suit the Wii controller setup.


But it's not doing anything drastically new, it seems. It's Zelda though more so. You still have the same elements, Boomerang, Arrows, Horse, Block Puzzles, Imperilled Princesses - though all these elements seem beefed up to their final expression. Repitition has never been a problem for me in Zelda however, and it's not here. There's a couple of reasons for this.

Firstly, there's a comfortable nostalgia in this repitition. Sitting down with a Zelda game for the first time never fails to turn me back into a thirteen-year old. There's the knowledge that you're getting something brand-new, tempered with the feeling of being back with an old friend. You know there's gonna be your favourite kind of puzzle creeping up at some point, you want to get the hookshot back in your hands. The way it'll happen is undefined, and there will be plenty of things happening in between that you're not expecting.

This Zelda familiarity only works, I think, because of the long time it takes between games. Having any faster a release schedule would tip the balance too much the wrong way. Zeldas are event games. Like the legend they tell, they come around only once in a while, long enough for people to forget just how they feel until they're swept up in a new one.

Heh. I'm unashamedly enthusiastic at the moment. I'm genuinely excited about this game in a way I've not been since the last one. There isn't any game that does what Zelda does as well as Zelda does it.

I can't stop looking at the pictures.
 
 
ORA ORA ORA ORAAAA!!
07:34 / 05.11.06
I have to agree that the control scheme is now really, really damn good. I had no hiccups whatsoever, link did exactly what I wanted him to do, when I wanted him to do it.

When I got scared, surrounded by lizard men, and ran off a cliff, he grabbed on, as he does, and climbed up when I wanted him to, without thinking about it. In fact, the nunchuck controller disappears, in your mental map. It doesn't feel like you're using a controller, really. You point at things, you swipe at things, and your other hand makes you move, without really knowing how.

I wasn't really looking forward to the game, based on screenshots and reviews of the controller issues I'd heard, except as a Zelda game, which, obviously, I must own. But now that I've had a bash at it (I only got to play for about 10 minutes, and I didn't get to use the hookshot or the boomerang, but I did everything else), I am so tremendously enthusiastic about it, I cannot even begin to express it in words. Also, having withdrawal from the controller. Today at work I was using the apple frontstage remote, and kept trying to grab things on the screen with it, because it seemed natural that I should be able to do so.

Also, having played wario ware: smooth moves, as well as duck hunt (or the equivalent, from the Wii-play disc) and tennis, the controller in general is really astoundingly good. It has exactly the right weight, fits perfectly into my hands, and the much smaller hands of some seven year old competition winners, and will constantly surprise you with what you can do with it. This last part is more system advocacy than Zelda enthusiasm, though. Perhaps a Wii-specific thread is needed, in the leadup to launch time?
 
 
_pin
08:30 / 05.11.06
Don't make me cry. My replay of Ocarina of Time to stave need is precisely not helping, but how can I stop now? It had me when it played the home-town music. And then it had me again when it played that daylight music.

The only reason I'm not doing the fiscally impossible and scouring my city for a Wii on drop day is that the Jury Service will hold me in contempt of court.

I literally hate the law right now.

Also, any word on localisation of that Tingle game?

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On a downer, the introduction of Ooccoo "a chicken homunculus with a human head" who lets you warp in and out of dungeons to get supplies sounds like dugeons aren't self contianed anymore, and they're masking some kind of outherwise game-breaking bug, oh save-here-and-never-complete-it-Water-Temple.
 
 
ORA ORA ORA ORAAAA!!
10:11 / 05.11.06
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I just watched the 'ultimate trailer', and was reminded that there's the whole weird digital/virtual aspect to a lot of the villains, and also, at one point, Link in wolf form. Does anyone have any information about that? It had totally slipped my mind. The virtual stuff seems to show up in the twilight world, so I don't think it's the incursion of the twilight into the light world...
 
 
iamus
12:52 / 05.11.06
One of the things I'm really hoping for is a return to the proper brain-melter dungeons. The Water Temple in OoT is definitely my favourite, much like the Wind (Bird?) Tower from near the end of Links Awakening on Game Boy. These are the truly three-dimensional dungeons that make you really think about where you are in the room and where the room is in the context of the rest of the dungeons.

Wind Waker didn't really do this so much. Its dungeons were mainly a progression of self-contained puzzle rooms. Whereas the previous two examples had you flipping switches and pushing blocks into holes to help solve rooms on the floors below.

The great thing about these in Zelda games, is that while in other games it may easily get frustrating, Nintendo make sure all the information you need is there, it just takes exploration and logical study of the maps and resources you have at hand to muddle through.


I'll be snapping up a Wii with this on or as close to launch day as is humanly possible. I may have to try and pull some strings at the game shop I used to work at to make sure it all gets pulled off flawlessly.
 
 
_pin
13:38 / 05.11.06
Yr penultimate paragraph is precisly what I'm worried for.

Please someone tell me it isn't so. (I don't know how you would).
 
 
iamus
20:28 / 05.11.06
I wouldn't worry too much. I'd reckon that with 20-odd years of Zelda dungeon design experience behind you, you'd have a fairly good idea of how to build them up without breaking them.

Ooccoo sounds like he performs the same in-dungeon function as the mirror in LttP, the ocarina mambo in LA and Farore's Wind in OoT. All these things warp you back to the beginning of the dungeon so you don't have to backtrack for ages.
 
 
_pin
21:33 / 05.11.06
This warps ou outside, and back in to the exact point, "should you need supplies" (quote from this month's Edge hands-on). Just hit boxes for all the supplies you need! (I'm going to shut up about this, because I sound weird).
 
 
iamus
20:37 / 06.11.06
Now with dowloadable content, apparently.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
21:08 / 06.11.06
There are currently some pretty big questions surrounding Nintendo's download service - like how, if you don't get to create a unique tag for your entire online Wii experience, you go about downloading stuff again without having to pay again, should the console you originally downloaded it onto curl up and die. There's a Nintendo Europe rep interviewed somewhere, hinting that you'd need to contact them directly in that kind of event.

Which makes me nervous about the idea of purchasing any digitally-delivered software from the company. At least with the 360 your download history is tied into your gamertag, making the process of recovering lost purchases a simple matter of clicking a couple of on-screen buttons.

I'm skimming this thread at the moment, because I've traditionally kept away from stepping anywhere near to discussions that may spoil even the slightest moment of a new Zelda game (apart from the one 'spoiler-free' OoT review I read, that managed to give full details on the Water Temple boss, including how to defeat it, within the main bulk of the review text), but I just wanted to comment on this:

imaus: I wouldn't worry too much. I'd reckon that with 20-odd years of Zelda dungeon design experience behind you, you'd have a fairly good idea of how to build them up without breaking them.

You'd think, but the experience of Wind Waker puts the lie to this, to an extent. Dungeon design and item selection are intricately tied to each other throughout the series, but WW fluffed the relationship on a couple of key points. First was having the sail and the leaf as two seperate items - there's no good reason why they couldn't have been combined into one, other than that the designers either needed to bulk the main quest out a bit or weren't at the top of their game and so didn't even realise that they'd effectively doubled up on what would, in previous entries in the series, have been one item.

The same thing happened, to a lesser degree, with the grapple and the hookshot - there was little that the one could do that the other wouldn't have been suitable for. In this case, it actually hurt the experience, for me - the majority of the dungeons were easy enough to rip through for anybody familiar with the two N64 games, but because the grapple was able to latch onto some beams and the hookshot others, there were moments that caused unnecessary confusion for those same players. Well, this player, anyway.

You get to that big tower - the one that eventually leads to the sunken Hyrule - in the middle of the ocean fairly early on in the game. Before you gain access to the hookshot, but after you've got the grapple. In it, there's the classic 'room with big hole in floor, beam position in middle of ceiling' puzzle. This, to me, means hookshot time - the series has etched that onto the surface of your brain. Because I didn't have the hookshot, I figured I must have reached this point too early and couldn't progress without that item, so spent somewhere in the region of six hours hunting around the gameworld, looking for a dungeon that I'd managed to miss, before giving up and checking out a FAQ for the answer. Which was, of course, that this particular beam required the use of the grapple.

It's the combination of old and new items, partnered with the uneasy and ill-defined boundaries between their uses that sticks out in my memory as one of the weakest parts of WW's puzzle logic. I hope that they don't do the same again here - there need to be new items, definitely, because without them it's going to be the easiest game in the world for series veterans, but the new items need to be completely distinct from any returning old ones. Minish Cap, for its other faults, got that element of the design absolutely spot-on.
 
 
Bamba
11:48 / 11.11.06
Y'know, it was only when reading one of those links further up the page that I realised Twilight Princess was still coming out on the Gamecube. I'd seen all the chat about the Wii control scheme and simply assumed that they'd decided to move the thing on to their new platform and leave the Cube behind (as most other developers probably would). I now feel like a bit of a twat for having somehow missed out on this critical information, but also joyously happy that I'll get to play it without buying another new Nintendo console. Every time they bring out a new console I buy it, play that generation's Zelda game, then it pretty much sits gathering dust so this dual release saves me a buttload of wasted cash. Woo!
 
 
Seth
12:24 / 11.11.06
Any word of whether the Gamecube version will get a UK release? And do we know what the differences will be between the two besides extra downloadable content and the control interface? I currently have a Gamecube and a freeloader and am desperate for this game, but with enough incentive will delay gratification to the Wii.

The game does look very Gamecube from what I've seen. The graphics don't match up to what I imagine the Wii to be capable of.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:22 / 11.11.06
The Wii's a powered-up Cube, Seth, so there's not likely to be an enormous amount of improvement in looks. More impressive lighting effects, smoother frame rates, every game playable in progressive scan. Arguably, there's no need for any machine to be significantly more powerful than the Cube, given that barely anybody bothered trying to get the best out of that hardware anyway.

The only real differences I'm aware of between the two versions of TP, besides controls, are that the Wii version has a widescreen mode and looks a bit nicer.

Cube version's slated for release on the 15th December in the UK, I think.
 
 
_pin
06:11 / 13.11.06
I'll check when I get back to work (at a game store), but last I heard the rumours that they wouldn't bother. In Europe. Loved, loved Europe...

Even though I've never come close to 100%ing a Zelda, I'd still feel un-whole without downloaded extras, so Wii, eventually, it is.

Also, I can't remember were I read that the other difference is that the whole game, inclding cut-scenes, is a mirror version of the Gamecube, to match Link's move from left- to righ-handed.
 
 
Seth
07:42 / 13.11.06
That's definitely true. I was watching game trailers last night and some of them were mirrored.
 
 
iamus
10:27 / 13.11.06
I mentioned it upthread.

I think it was done to change Link's sword hand, so that it maps the way righties hold the controller. Nintendo hates left-handers, it seems.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
10:27 / 13.11.06
I pre-ordered the cube version with Game, and they say Dec 15th. Although I still have fears that might not turn out to be true, and I'd really rather know about these things sooner than later so I don't have to faff around anymore just to get the game. Nothing is exactly clear on this matter...

I can't actually get a Wii myself as I am too poor, which obviously seems like the easiest option to play the game. But I resent that a little, even if I am going to get one anyway (eventually) I don't want to feel forced in to it just to assure I actually get to play this game.

This is the only game really available to me (or is it?) at Christmas - I don't know of any more cube games (I'd probably rather go for Okami or a Wii grab bag could I afford it) - and it's frustrating that I still don't really know if I can get it or not... maybe it'd just be more sensible to import it from America.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:57 / 13.11.06
I'd hang fire on importing until you know for sure that it'll work on a PAL Cube with a Freeloader disc. Most games do, but there are some that have problems with save files.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
17:55 / 13.11.06
Oh aye, I know. I don't really plan on importing at all. It's really a matter of knowing which is more viable, if the cube date was comfirmed officially in any manner I wouldn't even be pondering it.
 
 
_pin
05:57 / 15.11.06
It is coming out, and it is the 15th. Sorry about that.

The next problem, ofcourse, is that we actually listed six titles on the way before Christmas, and I know for sure we won't get the other five because we don't have a Gamecube section.

So who knows where G/c Zelda will actually be that day.
 
 
Seth
13:46 / 14.12.06
So... how's it going? In as non-spoilery way as possible.
 
 
iamus
17:29 / 14.12.06
I think Suedey gets his today or tomorrow.

I'm holding off because I've not bought a Wii sos I can clear some work first and also because I can't be arsed with the pre-christmas scramble, but I'm surprised there's been no word from the American contingent. They've had ample time to get onto it.


Tell us what it's like, people. I'll scroll down with my fingers over my eyes and then quickly press the back button.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
18:31 / 14.12.06
I still can't get my hands on a Wii. Supposedly Sunday. I'm actually going to get up at 5:30 in the morning, drive to EBGames, sit at their door and make sure I get one, because this is getting fucking ridiculous. Not having a Wii is making me into an angry, unpleasant person.

Having only the six or so hours I played it over Thanksgiving as a reference, I'll still attest to it's excellence. The only thing that pissed me off about it was that moving the Wiimote to swing the sword was kind of disappointing. It doesn't matter which direction you swing it in, Link just goes through the standard sword combo. I expected that he would swing the sword the way I swung the Wiimote, and I was dumbfounded to find out that this is not the case. It still bothers me, actually. It's an absolutely criminal omission.
 
 
iamus
19:07 / 14.12.06
I dunno, It's pretty obvious that would be the case, what with TP essentially just being a Gamecube game, though I remember being similarly dissappointed with OOT after thinking of all the context sensitive swordplay an analogue stick could bring.

However, the word is there's a Wii-specific Zelda that's been in the works for about a year now and chances are it'll right problems like that.
 
 
netbanshee
21:13 / 15.12.06
I got my hands on the cube version two days ago and have played a good four hours so far. I mentioned in the next-gen console thread that I have had an opportunity to play the Wii version a week or two back, but it was just a quick run through.

I decided to pick up the GC version since the new system is near impossible to find. I might get lucky and pick a Wii up on Sunday, since I hear that many retailers are reserving their remaining supplies for the last weekend holiday push. I haven't been able to do a proper side-by-side comparison of the titles, but there's little difference that I can discern between them besides the obvious mirroring of the game, aspect ratio and difference in controls.

The GC controls feel just like Wind Waker does so there's no disconnect there... very easy to pick up and play. I haven't obtained many items in either version, but the point and aim items like the boomerang and slingshot do translate better with the wiimote. The wiimote lets you quickly and accurately target any enemy or area while the GC's analog stick lacks a bit in comparison.

The presentation in Zelda is everything you would expect from Nintendo. Visually, it's the nicest title on Gamecube that I have seen. I really like the juxtaposition of the light/twilight realms... light being soft and analog while the twilight is saturated and digital in feel.

The audio is definitely familiar... the tunes you expect to hear in the village shop, in town, when fighting an enemy, etc. are mostly based off of tunes that you heard in previous incarnations. Certainly not a bad thing.

I'll report in with more later, unless someone would like to pick up from here. I would like to eventually touch on what it's like being Link's human vs. wolf form as well as some things that make me think back to Okami... it doesn't just feel like Capcom was the only one doing some of the borrowing...
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
11:44 / 17.12.06
We-e-e-e-lllll, I did indeed get this when iamus thought. The cube version, that is.

And I can say, without a doubt, that this game is pretty big. I gladly had a day to spend with it as I saw fit when I got it, and I put maybe... 8 hours in to the game, and I think I'd just gotten to the second temple/dungeon proper. I've been trying to take in as much as possible, exploring all around. With this sort of graphic style - and similarly to Ocarina of Time, I find it harder to hone in on secret areas and the like. By now, I'm at about 30 hours and fairly certain I'm nearing the end of the main quest proper...

And in lots of ways - so far, so familiar. I didn't really expect much different from the reviews and the like, and there's been a lot of charming moments and things that made me smile. I'm not sure if it's one of the wittier scripts so far (although Midna is quite amusing, and I'm always fond of the postman) but there's certainly been lots of gigglesome moments, and a few little surprises. There's been much talk of how serious the game is but... well, Nintendo are pretty good at undercutting that sort of thing at times.

The Twilight World is deliciously odd, in a way - and the pixel effects and synth-y sounds really offset any fantasy, LOTR vibe because it's so different to have that sort of thing around (but also at this point I wonder - couldn't they have done more with it? Perhaps it's still to come... in some ways it works well, in some ways it's another layer of collecting stuff)

I think it also looks quite lush from time to time, in that way Zelda games sometimes do. There's nothing to match the Wind Waker in my eyes (but no game ever has for me, for pure "looking like what it is" rather than "looking like something trying to look like something else"), but there's a lot of pleasant greenery and foliage - and while it's not of the highest quality detail of texture it does all blend to create a quite sumptuous affect. The characters also seem very expressive, just with little things and those big eyes... the design generally keeps everything looking good, although there's a few elements I'm not especially keen on, it fits with the sort of thing established in OoT and MM.

Basically, this is the epic. In every possible term - I think it might be epic at a loss of some of the little things. And sometimes perhaps at an increase of "collect em up" sections. I'm not sure if there'll be anything as tightly focused as the main town in Wind Waker here - and certainly nothing of the scope of Clock Town. And that's a bit of a shame for me, I like the sense of living towns Zelda can do, like having a mini Animal Crossing in the middle of a huge adventure.

I think the game world is so large that it's sort of hard to tie those sorts of things in together. But then... it's like they've just crammed in every last bit of every Zelda game in to one huge best of. Everything is present and correct, it seems, you might just recognise a familiar pattern or locale... this could have been the world where Wind Waker took place or where Ocarina happened long before. And it is - all of those things. It's been fairly linear (and bluntly pointing "this way"), but sometimes smartly making you feel as if you were the one who figured out where to go. As ever, my favourite moment comes after the "intial" stage of collection, usually the first three, when the world opens out before you and you get to go and really look around... And if, like the rumours say, this is the last Zelda in this traditional style then it makes sense to go out epic style. But I think, perhaps, I prefer the quirkier less epic Zelda's with more time to focus on character.

I'll talk about this in more detail once I've finished it, so I can get a better overview of the whole thing. And perhaps why a game like Zelda has to be text based and not voice acted - because Nintendo scripts rely on it for humour, giving things extra layers and dimensions, having key info be accessed easily and
ensuring the game isn't broken... basically, they'd be really good comic letterers. Reading isn't hearing.

This post is possibly a bit haphazard, but I think that's just how it has to be until it's all done!
 
 
Seth
14:14 / 18.12.06
I've just beaten the first temple and have had the second wolf transformation. I'm loving it so far. But then it's Zelda, so I would.
 
 
hvatsun
21:54 / 18.12.06
I'm about 12 hours in, and I just started the water temple. fun fun fun.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
15:36 / 30.12.06
Completed this quite a while ago now and... well, bit disappointed. All the promise at the start, all the things it seemed you'd be able to do - not there. Never revealing themselves. All this talk - me included - of it being such a huge game seems to reveal itself as quite superficial. On the surface it's huge. But it never seems to make the most of any of it, all the work is there but it never quite makes the most of it.

I enjoyed it a lot, it just seems to be missing that sense of depth - it all bottoms out, especially torwards the end. Once something is in place for what's at the end that's it, you know? There's nothing left to do. And there's not that much to do, if there was I really wouldn't mind. You can turn in to a wolf, yeah... but the game doesn't really go any great lengths to exploit that. Those hawks you can call to your arm? Never really used save for the start (and the start is great, it seems like you'll get to do so much, but all that promise goes quite quickly when you see what the game will actually let you do, Castle Town pretty sparse for something so populated, as if it's just an optional detour on your way to the bar). Items, you think worth at least a mini game somewhere get nothing. I don't see why you'd have such a big world but not really make the most of actually putting things in it. With Karakiko at first it all evolves and changes a little, makes you feel like your actions affect something. But after that it's all very linear - go here, talk to them, then hit the dungeon and nothing else really happens or changes after the first third. You go to new places, but everything else stays pretty much the same. I really wish it had kept the whole illusion up, that turning in to a wolf would come to the fore, not just for collecting "tears". There's lots of talk in the game about what it means and how important it is you can turn in to this beast. But it doesn't feel very important.

And I'm not sure if it's just this game or all Zelda games, in a sense. I think I may have preferred Wind Waker - more it's own thing.

And that's just the thing with this Zelda game, it's a big compendium of all the hits, a few little twists. But it's all the surface and none of the other unique things that appeared in other games. It's big and epic and has lots of dungeons but that doesn't really make it feel more important or epic or... it just has lots of dungeons. Never delving in to it's own mechanic, just subtle nods to what came before.

I enjoyed at least 30 hours of it greatly though, don't get me wrong. Zelda games have a pretty high standard - A GOLD STANDARD IF YOU WILL, FNAR - and so there's a lot to live up to. And I'll still stand by what I said before, it's a good send off. I just wish there was more, just like I wished there would be more to it when Hyrule was revleaed in Wind Waker.

Big world, sparsely populated, light on extras, heavy on action and nostalgia.
 
 
Kirin? Who the heck?
18:44 / 10.02.07
Just finished it today, making it the first 3D Zelda game I've ever completed – although I'm hoping that Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask come out on the Virtual Console, 'cause then I might be able to complete them (the N64's controller was an awful thing, and if they have the improved framerate of the recent Mario Kart 64 VC release, that'd be even better).

Everything about it was awesome, epic and just wonderful. Good script, and Midna is one of the most interesting characters in any Zelda game. However, I'd agree that some of the elements (especially the hawk bit) are under-utilised. If you look back at some of the hype before its release, it's fairly clear that the 'talking with animals' bit was pretty much discarded during the development, and this does extend to a general lack of use of the wolf form in general. Nevertheless, I'm certainly satisfied.

Now I've got to find something to amuse myself with until Final Fantasy XII hits on the 23rd.
 
 
iamus
00:45 / 17.02.07
Finished this a good few weeks back and I've been putting off this post ever since. I think it's time to dive in now...




BLOODY MASSIVE HAEMORRHAGE OF SPOILERS!!!!



YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!!




First off, though I agree with Suedey's criticisms, I don't think I could honestly say I was disappointed in any way. The game offers exactly what it says on the tin, with plenty of other brightly-coloured sweeties hiding at the bottom. If I have problems with it, it's more of a niggly feeling really, that the game falls just short of the experience it should have been.

My first insinct is to say this is something I've felt of the series since it was taken over by Aonuma. It's certainly true of Majora (which has great atmosphere and some brilliant bits, but which I always found a bit to finicky to actually complete) and Wind Waker (Lots of little things to do, but with a gameworld spread far too thinly, and short main quest that suffers the same). In reality though, I don't think it's Aonuma's fault.

I had my problems with Ocarina too. The world seemed a little too open for me, which may sound odd, but when I think Zelda, I think of Link to the Past and Link's Awakening specifically. I think tight winding paths snaking around rivers full of evil Zoras, over bridges and into waterfall caves that warren deep into the mountains, stuffed full of Keese, Stalfos, treasures and plenty of places to use those treasures imaginitively. By comparison, the games since have seemed a little barren.

It's an unrealistic expectation to have really, because the technology available and therefore the series itself has changed pretty dramatically since those days. What I really want is another Link to the Past which is as much a step up from that game as it was to the first Zelda. It's an unatainable ideal, really. I think I go on about this a lot here (so much so that I'm starting to irritate myself) but I really haven't ever seen anything like it before or since in videogames. LttP remains one of the most stupefyingly complete and mind-bendingly concise videogame experiences I've ever seen.

It creates a living, breathing world that is both epic and intimate. It's very, very big, but all the details that connect it together are very, very small. There's wonderful presents from Nintendo on every corner. Lots of big ones clearly signposted on your way through the adventure and hundreds of wee ones for clever players venturing off the beaten path. Building a gameworld like that would have been a worthy task for any developer at the time, but in that game Nintendo did it twice and then stacked them inside each other into a big physical paradox of a design that you'd be very hard pushed to replicate on similar hardware, never mind today's.

SNES Zelda is like the Golden Age of comics. Big, bold themes of courageous spirit and adventure weaving through the brightest lights and deepest darkness, painted in pixellated primaries that fire straight to the back of the brain. When the games grew up, they lost a lot of that.

I think up to this point, Majora's mask had done the best job of recapturing the feeling of that 2D Hyrule, stacked to the gills with bright, musical treasures. Wind Waker does the best job of recapturing the visuals. It looked to me exactly as a 3D Zelda should.

But where the hook of LttP expands that world, these games perversely limit it. The MM three-day time limit before the manadatory reset to Clock Town (and resulting repetition of the scripted events you've already been through) robbed a lot of the required fun and leisurely freedom from exploring and getting to know that world. The manipulation of the wind in WW just highlighted how much of a pain in the arse it could be moving from place to place in that flooded Hyrule.


So Twilight Princess then.. which in places really does feel like a concerted effort to marry these two eras of Zelda game into one exhaustive package.

It has the look and feel of an adventure for "grown-ups". Big overcast skies, the corruptive forces of the emo realm, a real-world mediaeval look. But it has the whimsical stuff and the bright colours too and it's all placed within a world that is, at first glance, as packed as it is large. It's a Hyrule that's capable of giving you serene sunrises that draw very subtle and subdued rainbows off the surface of the water before there's a FLASH and a BANG and all of a sudden you're fighting a horrible, pulsating electrical bug thingy, or somebody falls on their arse or something.

TP's Hyrule has plenty twists and bends. It has rivers that can be followed to their source and mountains that can be clambered to their peaks. It's big on little details and rewards careful combing with lots of lovely wee treats. There are caves stuffed with Keese hidden halfway along tricky rockfaces, and these caves are often like mini-dungeons, instead of tending towards Ocarina's default of yet another wee grotto with its collection of beetles, pots and grass slightly rearranged (though these make a comeback too, but slightly more varied this time).

There's Zora Armour! It lets you dive to the newly-massived depths of Lake Hylia! Or swim underwater all the way from the Zora's Throne Room to Castle Town! There's a cane (yay!) that lets you control big statues and smash things that bullied you earlier on. There's the Clawshot (a sensibly redesigned Hookshot)! In fact, there's two of them! With some lovely wall-to-wall ziplineing as a result! There's some really impressive-looking bosses which'll make you back off with a case of the shits one minute and burst out laughing the next.

There are some great dungeons in the game. The first that springs to mind is the Water Temple at the bottom of Lake Hylia. It follows the grand tradition of Zelda water dungeons by being a total head-fuck. It's a proper, full environment, with its tributary rooms that each have to be solved so they can feed into the overriding puzzle of the multi-tiered central chamber. Brilliant wee moments there too. Hanging over an abyss from giant cogs by way of the clawshot as the room clanks and turns all around you, water churning away behind the scenes.

The Temple of Time is fantastic too. Going back in time, transforming the ruins which housed the Master Sword (which I'd only thought about in the vaguest sense) into the temple they used to be is something that works a treat, tying Oot, TP and LttP together in one slight stroke, making Zelda fans squee at the same time. It gives an effortless sense of history to the adventure and to the series as a whole at the same time.

And that dungeon itself is very clever. What seems like a rather linear and lifeless trek is turned on its head at the halfway mark, as you have to make it right the way back down to the start, giant stompy statue in tow, rethinking every room to accomodate it as you go.

Special mention has to go to:

The City in the Sky. Simply because it was a total, total bastard.

The western-style "bowfight", picking Bokoblins off of roofs and gantries as you make your way through a ghost town. Know what you're doing and it can look very cool indeed.

Looking for the key to a dungeon's boss, only to find a succession of vegetables and cheese that you cart back to a giant, over-enthusiastic Yeti sos he can make a hearty soup for his ill-wife.

Hyrule Castle. From the grounds or from atop the roof at least, is a thing of epic beauty, and the perfect place for the final showdown. It feels like a real castle, and not just another dungeon with a coat of paint. The illusion's not so great when you're making your way up inside it, but still....

The Wii controls, which I imagine transform the game a good bit. They are intuitive and beautiful. Very easy to pick up, slotting into the experience like they were always there. There's a slight problem in that targeting a weapon such as the boomerang or clawshot without the pointer fixed on the screen brings up an illusion-shattering "PLEASE POINT THE WII REMOTE AT THE SCREEN, FANNYBAWS!".

The wonderfully evocative bits where you communicate with a ghostly wolf by howling songs underneath the moon.


Midna.

Midna. Midna. Midna. Midna.

She's a beautiful, impish little thing bursting with personaility and attitude and emotion. Bossy and put-upon in equal measure, Midna is a wee darlin' who needs far more airtime than this game could ever hope to give her. She should totally team-up with Tingle (sadly absent here) in the best odd-couple adventure you've ever heard of.



Twilight Princess tries to cover all the main fan-favourite bullet points of the previous game even down to including the slingshot (which becomes absolutely fucking useless when you find the bow and arrows like, five minutes later). But the game still falls short, in large part because of this. In setting out to be the comprehensive be-all and end-all it's only natural that those things they have actually missed will stick out like sore thumbs. These things will also invariably be different from player to player anyway, so it's not really a winnable situation.

The Twilight Realm and the wolf are probably the most obvious things here. After the opening sections of the game, these elements really take a back seat. The twilight realm is not really used at all from there on in, instead it's relegated to nothing more than the barrier to stop your entrance to Hyrule Castle.

The wolf is a bit of a damp squib as well. It looks good, moves good and sounds good but there's no great reason for it to be there, and no great story reason why it actually is there. Its abilities are nothing that couldn't have been added with an item or two, really. It does allow for the following of scent trails though, which is a nice addition, as everything around you save the trail dims out and you bomb it along, oblivious to the world around you and the enemies uselessly trying to attack. Works particularly well when searching for the kids in the opening section, but again loses much of its rush when the story cranks down a gear.


The biggest omission is a bit of a no brainer though. Side missions. It's one of the things that are absolutely, bloody essential for a Zelda game as they are one of the things which have always married the grand scope of Hyrule with the personalities of the people who live there.

It's something I was trying to pin down before Suedey pointed it out to me elsewhere. There's a couple of collectathons in the game, (COLLECT A TON OF TINY BUGS!! CAPTURE A MILLION POE SOULS!!) but these do next to nothing to enhance the experience. They can effectively be reduced to bullet points, the rewards they offer are impersonal and of little use, especially if you've already finished the game (which you will have done before you come close to completing these).

There's no photographing secret lovers in midnight trysts. There's no staking out villages to teach sneaky wee thieves the error of their ways. There's no reuniting estranged families, even though it looks set up that you will. The beginning sections of the game make it look like it's really going to deliver on these aspects. Theres some great narrative pushing the adventure onwards, as Link heads out of his village with the responsibility of saving the kidnapped children, you can almost see how this personal little story is going to propel him into his role as the demon-slaying, dungeon-hookshotting hero of legend. The villagers of his hometown even change to reflect those first steps of his adventure (something that always irks me in RPGs is when you head back home to family and friends that have nothing more to say to you than they did four dungeons ago. As if gathering shards of shattered sun-gods and slaying giant plasma-farting space-whales were something you'd do every lazy Sunday)......

Nothing really comes of this though. Characters settle down after a little bit and patiently wait for you to go off and do your own thing, remaining in status quo till near the end or even during the credits. Save for a few choice developments here and there, there's an almost criminal lack of character connection. This is especially keenly felt in the last three dungeons which are sandwiched together with hardly a breath between them.

In all, these potentially major flaws are largely forgivable, because what TP does, it does very well indeed. It doesn't come good on some promises but it keeps all the major ones and looks very bloody good while it does it. It's a game that can stand near the roof of the Zelda pile, but it's not quite the top-tier it was maybe made out as. There's also the promise of further downloadable content that Nintendo have hinted at. While it's not a particularly desirable prosepct to pay for stuff that felt missing from the original experience, this Hyrule does feel more like one with great potential to be added to, rather than one that is unfinished,
 
 
iamus
00:51 / 17.02.07
I may ask for this thread to be moderated as a catch-all Zelda thread.

You, nay, The Forum requires it.
 
 
netbanshee
15:52 / 17.02.07
I agree with the call for an all encompassing Zelda discussion iamus. There used to be a good thread on the chronological order of Zelda's storylines (ERD had written quite a bit on it) but I can't find it after some digging around the board. Do you think this is the place to give it a go or shall we start another thread?

I'm not sure if my brain is broken today or what, but I've been having equal difficulty finding a recent article on a gaming site that provides suggestions on how Nintendo can improve Zelda. Seems that others are feeling the need for a reexamination of some core mechanics too.

The article touched on a few things that have been mentioned here as well as some others: lack of any or continued interaction with characters throughout the game, large environments where activities are spread too thin, revisiting the same character classes and missions in the latest 3D incarnations of Zelda and so on.

I guess it seems that there hasn't been a major jump in the possibilities Zelda has brought to the table in recent years. It breaks down sorta like this...

The Legend of Zelda (NES) - A Link to the Past (SNES) - Ocarina of Time (N64) - ???

Where can Nintendo go from here with their beloved franchise?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
14:11 / 29.04.07
I'd argue that Majora's Mask was a huge step forwards for the series in a number of significant areas. And I will, but later.

Because I got a Wii a couple of days ago and started Twilight Princess yesterday, want to talk about it in here but also want to get straight back to it again now. And, again, I've still not read any of the posts within this thread that talk about TP specifically, because I don't want to spoil anything for myself.

The first thing I need to say is that I'm very disappointed that the Wii version *doesn't* support prog scan, so playing it on new TV tech leads to it looking slightly out of focus. Textures become indistinct, everything looks hazy and like it's lacking in a certain amount of detail. It's a stupid thing to overlook - or possibly ignore - because the fact that the Wii version displays in widescreen indicates that Nintendo were well aware that there would be a lot of people playing the game on new tellies. The game still looks gorgeous when it's set in the morning or daytime, but whenever the sky darkens and the oranges and browns come to the fore, it suffers from this lack of consideration.

The other thing I wanted to say right now is that I adore the rustic, small village feel to the opening section. It's something new again for the series - okay, so not all that new, because there's Kakariko Village in OoT - but having Link as a ranch-hand, dressed in those clothes, makes it feel totally different.

As does the inclusion of a pregnant character living within the village - that's still very non-Nintendo (and very non-videogames, when it comes to that). It's really significant, for a whole bunch of reasons. Not because it's an open acknowledgement of the existence of sex within a Nintendo franchise, but because of the way that she's just there, this pretty, pregnant woman, hand resting on her stomach and back slightly bent, and none of the dialogue even mentions it. Because it's natural to these characters and this world - it's just part of life.

It's testament to the success of that opening section that as soon as I was forced to leave, I wanted to go back there. I want the entire game to be set in that kind of world.

Where I am now is right at the beginning of the Forest Temple. I've got to say, as soon as the words 'Forest Temple' appeared on the screen, my heart sank (as it also did when Link found himself dressed in the traditional green garb). I want this series to pull itself out of the pattern of repeating the same events in slightly different surroundings - this is one of the reasons why Majora's Mask is, without question, my favourite of the Zelda games (no Zelda, for a start) - because the apparent need to go through the same motions each time is robbing it of some of its appeal, for me. Epona, again. The princess in trouble, again. The Forest Temple, again.

And I don't get anything like as much from a story of rescuing a kingdom and a princess as I do with one of saving a small child from loneliness or hooking up with a band of pirates and discovering a lost world underneath the ocean. My hope for TP is that Zelda and the kingdom are a MacGuffin, and that the heart of the story and the game lies with the Link/Ilia relationship.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
13:50 / 12.05.07
Now I'm past the first three dungeons and into the storyline proper, and it's losing its appeal in some respects.

Mainly what I'm disappointed about is the lack of inhabited villages in comparison to bot Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. the new version of Death Mountain has some Gorons posted around the place in order to help you navigate it, but there's none of the sense of the living community that was present in the N64 titles. Same applies to the Zora.

It's just such an empty, lifeless world. Why would I want to save somewhere like that? And when you get to the town around Hyrule Castle, it gets worse - you can talk to about 5% of the people running around it, there are only something like four houses that you can enter. The forced camera in this area might be an attempt to draw a clear parallel to the equivalent area in OoT, but even if it isn't it's still a stupid decision - not being able to look around the town from a pov of your own choosing makes it become videogame decoration instead of a real, believable place.

Fundamentally, though, my problem with TP is the same one that I've had since it was first revealed: that it abandons the promise of Wind Waker's final moments. Spoiler:

[+] [-] Spoiler

But then TP comes out and instead of this reinvention, we get a remake of OoT. Because that's what TP is.

I'm also disappointed in the lack of invention in the use of the wolf powers - the opportunity to have them open up a parallel world, like A Link to the Past's Dark Hyrule, has been squandered (so far, at least).

Basically, though, it's the lack of character and warmth that'a killing this for me (relatively speaking, of course), and the dead, empty or non-existent towns is an enormous part of that.

Had more to say, but it's temporarily forgotten.
 
  

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