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Water

 
  

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E. Coli from the Milky Way
20:46 / 24.10.06
I was posting this in the Lab, because it seems that the Well, Emoto thing now is a scientific fact. But the i was going to link this, and i said to myself better posting in the temple.

More science: In an April New Scientist article, it is discussed quantum water effects, with some theories to hipotetic homeostatic mechanism. Also, tangentially related to water (because water is needed in enzymatic reactionsand then enzymes go quantum.

Apart of this, i've listened that having psychedelics in front of a lake gives a more intense experience, and then you have Hiroshi Motoyama talking about Kobo waterfalls in wich he encountered shinto/entities.

More thoughts on water?
 
 
Papess
21:08 / 24.10.06
You might find this thread - "Interview with a Water Elemental" - interesting.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:07 / 24.10.06
Hrrrm. Haven't read all the links in that piece but I have to say I'm more than a little sceptical. I'll be interested to see if anyone else has a go at replicating this--and if so, how they get on.
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:34 / 25.10.06
Unfortunately that New Scientist link only provides the opening paragraphs if you're not subscribed to the online version. Any chance of some details about it's content?

I find that stuff about enzymes and quantum tunnelling fascinating though. It would explain why enzymes speed up chemical processes within the body so efficiently. (I may hijack it for the New Developments in Biology thread if that's okay?).

As to Emoto's experiment. Well, assuming the effects are replicable, that's an interesting phenomena. Of course more work would need to be done to see whether it just made the crystals look more pleasing or if there were other benefits.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:52 / 25.10.06
Oh, well, if an organisation as august as the Institute for Noetic Sciences has confirmed Masaru Emoto's theories about happy water...
 
 
Quantum
16:51 / 25.10.06
Emoto's water theory is crap. Sorry. Scientific fact my Quantum arse.
 
 
Princess
16:58 / 25.10.06
DHE, are you asking about water as a physical substance, as an element, or as both? I'm assuming the from the H20 in the summary that you mean the physical, approved of by Randi, drank by Dawkins type. I just want to check if my two-penneth (which is more about the "Elemental" water rather than the scientific one) is going to be majorly off topic.
 
 
Quantum
17:45 / 25.10.06
Debunking Emoto in a nutshell, from this post where finderwolf quotes;
Many of the photos are quite nice, but the shapes of ice crystals are highly dependent on the conditions and rates of freezing, so Emoto's fanciful interpretations have no scientific validity.

Water is a pretty broad topic though, from the element p.o.v. especially. Where are we hoping this thread might go?
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
20:20 / 25.10.06
Evil Scientist: New Scientist article goes on propierties on water bonds that approximates it to the "Zero Point-energy, a quantum effect derived from Heisenberg's uncertainity principle.

it says: (...) Just take some water and swap the hydrogen for atoms of its heavier isotpe deuterium. You end up with a liquid that is chemically identical, yet poisonous to all but the most primitive organisms. "The only difference is in the zero-point energy", says Frank

it also goes with an interesting hypotesis about the role of the water sharing information between DNA and proteines and introducing notions like Epitaxy and succussion (it is said that some people estimates that the shaking of the water can cause localised pressures that can reach 10,000 atmospheres and so trigger huge changes in water).

Princess, I was saying all of this because i wanted to hear what people thinks on water from a magick prespective. Mckenna has something on quantum resonance, and then you have that element, water, that supposedly is near to this resonance.

Today i've read somewhere that taoists recommand meditate front to water, and that mayans consider lakes sacred places ...
 
 
trouser the trouserian
21:11 / 25.10.06
I have the full text of the New Scientist article ( 'er indoors is a subscriber) - just over 2,200 words. Worth posting in its entirety or shall I attempt a summary?
 
 
Char Aina
21:37 / 25.10.06
i'd like to read the whole thing, if that's okay.
i'd like to hear their whole point, so as not to feel that i may have missed something if it turns out to be unconcvincing.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:38 / 25.10.06
Is it me or has New Scientist gone completely fucking shit?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:38 / 25.10.06
I'm just asking.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
04:32 / 26.10.06
Is it me or has New Scientist gone completely fucking shit?

Hadn't noticed it being particularly shit of late, but then I'm not a regular reader. It doesn't seem to have as many of the divine Kate Charlesworth's cartoons in it as it used to. I spotted a letter from Pete Carroll a few months back.

Here's a big chunk of the New Scientist article:

"All the bonds affecting water molecules are ultimately caused by quantum effects, but hydrogen bonds are the result of one of the strangest quantum phenomena: so-called zero-point vibrations. A consequence of Heisenberg's famous uncertainty principle, these constant vibrations are a product of the impossibility of pinning down the total energy of a system with absolute precision at any given moment in time. Even if the universe itself froze over and its temperature plunged to absolute zero, zero-point vibrations would still be going strong, propelled by energy from empty space.

Quantum lifeline
In the case of water, these vibrations stretch the bonds between hydrogen atoms and their host oxygen atoms, enabling them to link up with neighbouring molecules more easily. The result is the highly cohesive liquid that keeps our planet alive.

Felix Franks of the University of Cambridge has a nice illustration of the vital role this quantum effect plays. Just take some water and swap the hydrogen for atoms of its heavier isotope deuterium. You end up with a liquid that is chemically identical, yet poisonous to all but the most primitive organisms. "The only difference is in the zero-point energy," says Franks.

A growing number of researchers are now investigating the consequences of this deep link between quantum effects and life. Recent advances in theoretical methods, experimental techniques and brute computing power have allowed them to study how water interacts with DNA, proteins and cells in unprecedented detail.

The results are often unexpected, and challenge simplistic assumptions about how life works. Certainly the fashionable view that the secret of life can be summed up in a catalogue of genes and the proteins they code for looks risibly simplistic. It is becoming clear that they cannot carry out even their most basic functions without direct help from molecules of the colourless, odourless curiosity that comes out of the tap. "Without water, it is all just chemistry," says Franks, "but add water and you get biology."

Some of the most impressive evidence is emerging from studies of proteins. Created from chains of amino acids linked up according to the instructions of DNA, proteins are the workhorse molecules of life. They perform a host of key functions, from fighting off invaders to catalysing reactions and building fresh cells. Their precise action depends largely on their physical shape, and water molecules have long been known to be vital in ensuring amino acids curl up in the right way. Only now are researchers discovering the mechanism.

What they are finding is an astonishingly delicate interplay of proteins and water molecules, orchestrated by those all-important hydrogen bonds. In January, Florian Garczarek and Klaus Gerwert at the department of biophysics at the Ruhr University of Bochum, Germany, reported on the role water molecules play in a protein called bacteriorhodopsin, which is found in the outer walls of primitive life forms (Nature, vol 439, p 109).

Bacteriorhodopsin undergoes a simple form of photosynthesis, using light to create a source of chemical energy. Researchers have long suspected that this process relies on the incoming light shifting protons around the molecule, creating a charge difference that acts rather like a battery. An obvious source of protons is the hydrogen nuclei of the water trapped within the protein's structure, but no one had shown how this could work.

Enter Garczarek and Gerwert. They exposed bacteriorhodopsin to infrared light, and found that the behaviour of the water molecules trapped within it was far from that of idle captives. Once struck by photons of light, the shape of the protein changed, breaking some of the hydrogen bonds between the trapped water molecules. The pair found that this triggered a chain of events in which fragments of some water molecules and clusters of others interacted to move protons through the protein.

This sophisticated process is all made possible by the quantum behaviour of the hydrogen bonds in water. "Having bonds that can easily be formed but are not too difficult to break is a big advantage," says Garczarek. The results suggest that it is no accident that chains of amino acids trap water molecules as they fold up to form a protein.
Hydrogen bonds are also turning out to have a profound role in the functioning of that other key constituent of life, DNA. As with proteins, new findings suggest it is time for a rethink of the familiar thumbnail sketch of DNA as a double helix of four chemical bases.

To perform its biological functions, DNA has to carry out various manoeuvres, twisting, turning and docking with proteins at just the right place. No problem for a metre-long stringy molecule like DNA, one might think. Yet on the far smaller scale where the real action takes place - typically a few hundred bases - DNA is pretty rigid. And then there's the mystery of how proteins meet up with just the right parts of the double helix.

Biochemists have long suspected water molecules are important: concentrations of them around DNA appear to correlate with biological activity. It turns out that water undergoes radical changes as it approaches the surface of DNA. As the molecules draw near the double helix, the seething network of hydrogen bonds within bulk water becomes disrupted, and the motion of individual molecules becomes more and more sluggish.

The latest research focuses on what happens around the "troughs" in the double helix formed by specific base pairs. It seems that water molecules linger longer and rotate more slowly around some base pairs than others. Suddenly that link between hydration levels and biological activity doesn't seem so perplexing. After all, the base pairs on DNA are the building blocks of genes, and their sequence dictates the order in which amino acids are stitched together to make proteins. If water molecules linger longer around some base pairs than others, the level of hydration will mirror the sequence of base pairs.

Monika Fuxreiter of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences Biological Research Centre in Budapest believes that this explains how proteins and DNA interact. She and her colleagues at BRC's Institute of Enzymology created a computer simulation of DNA and a protein called BamHI, which uses water molecules to cut DNA at very specific points.
They saw that adding virtual water molecules to the mix had a dramatic effect. "The water molecules report the DNA sequence to the protein while it is still some distance away," says Fuxreiter. "Then as the protein gets closer, the water molecules are ejected from the site until it binds tightly to the DNA."

According to Fuxreiter the water molecules relay messages to the protein via electrostatic forces, which reflect the varying levels of hydration on the DNA. They can even warn the approaching protein about potential problems with the DNA before it arrives. "If the DNA is distorted due to some defect it becomes more hydrated and the protein can't make proper contact," says Fuxreiter. "Instead, it moves to another site - which is very good biologically." Fuxreiter's team is now planning to test just how effective water molecules are in determining where and when proteins bind to DNA.

“It is time for a radical overhaul of the scientific view of water”

That there is more to water than hydrogen and oxygen is something many researchers welcome. But Rustum Roy, a materials scientist at Pennsylvania State University in University Park goes further. He thinks it is time for a radical overhaul of the scientific view of water - one which, he believes, has been dominated by chemistry for too long. "It's absurd to say that chemical composition dictates everything," he says. "Take carbon, for example - the same atoms can give you graphite or diamond." In a review paper published in Materials Research Innovations in December, Roy and a team of collaborators called for a re-examination of the case against the most controversial of all claims made for water: that it has a "memory".

The idea that water can retain some kind of imprint of compounds dissolved in it has long been cited as a possible mechanism for homeopathy, which claims to treat ailments using solutions of certain compounds. Some homeopathic remedies are so dilute they no longer contain a single molecule of the original compound - prompting many scientists to dismiss homeopathic effects as imaginary. For how can water with nothing in it act as anything other than water?

Roy believes this is too simplistic: "It is a naive, chemistry-schoolbook argument." He argues that water has proved itself capable of effects that go beyond simple chemistry, and these may imbue water with a memory. One way this may occur, he says, is through an effect known as epitaxy: using the atomic structure of one compound as a template to induce the same structure in others.

Hidden depths
Epitaxy is routinely used in the microprocessor industry to create perfect semiconductor crystals. And according to Roy, water already exhibits epitaxial effects. "The 'seeding' of clouds is the growth of crystalline ice on a substrate of silver iodide, which has the same crystal structure," he says. "No chemical transfer whatsoever occurs."
Roy and his colleagues also point to another effect they believe has been overlooked by mainstream scientists in their rush to dismiss homeopathy: the vigorous shaking of the mixtures used, a process called succussion. The team estimates that shock waves generated by the shaking can cause localised pressures inside the water to reach over 10,000 atmospheres, which may trigger fundamental changes in the properties of the water molecules.

Roy believes that by taking homeopathy seriously scientists may find out more about water's fundamental properties. "The problem is that much more research needs to be done to find the right techniques to probe the properties of water reliably," he says.

However, many scientists question the very idea of taking homeopathy seriously. The most recent review of the medical evidence found that homeopathic remedies were no better than a placebo in all but a handful of cases (Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine, vol 11, p 813). That is likely to put the brakes on research into this aspect of water. "Rigorous experiments need to be done to provide support for all scientific claims," says theoretical chemist David Clary at the University of Oxford. "I don't think it is worth spending time on this." Chemist Martin Chaplin of London South Bank University is more sympathetic: "I think there may be something in it, but we need good experiments - and the best researchers won't go near the subject."
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
05:21 / 26.10.06
Is it me or has New Scientist gone completely fucking shit?
I think weird is the word. Two weeks ago it was talking about physics trying to send messages from the present to the past, and it also had an article about salvia divinorum. Last week it talked about Near Death Experiences.

Considering that it was one of the mainstream magazines that gave that notice of the mushrooms, i think NS has gone psychedelic ...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:11 / 26.10.06
Well, if by 'psychedelic' you mean 'inreasingly prone to reporting unscientific drivel as if it were proven fact' then yes.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
08:45 / 26.10.06
Rustum Roy's recent publications (including his paper on the structure of water and its relevance to homeopathy) can be found here

Those interested in the science-spirituality debate might find his papers on science & religion of interest.

heart, it seems that you are not alone in your condemnation of NS: A Plea to Save New Scientist
 
 
Quantum
09:20 / 26.10.06
so-called zero-point vibrations.

I'm going straight to the Lab with that right now. "The only difference is in the zero-point energy," says Franks. riiiiight. Not the additional neutron then?

Thanks for the text Trouserian.
 
 
Quantum
09:22 / 26.10.06
From the link about NS; ...a lack of basic knowledge by its writers (most obviously in physics) glaringly so, unfortunately.
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
11:10 / 26.10.06
Well, not psychedelic, let's say only "weird" (as weird as a "scientific publication" talking about salvia aka plant spirits).

BTW does anybody know anything about this? (haven't readed the paper linked)
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:31 / 26.10.06
Some chinese experiments that attribute a relationship between chi and water

Chi research

Extract from the above

In addition to the attributes mentioned above, qi is also bi-directional and self-controllable. These attributes were confirmed by a number of scientists, based on the results of limited experiments. For example, following an instance of successfully altering the molecular characteristics of water using qi, a number of professors wondered if the results were erroneous. To determine whether the results were false and whether or not the molecular characteristics of water actually were modified, they wanted to see the altered water be reverted to the pre-qi emission state, that is, to see the original molecular characteristics of water restored through the use of qi.

Follow-up observations and measurements were carried out on qi-treated water every half hour. Within several hours, the laser Raman spectrum of qi-treated water with altered molecular characteristics gradually reverted to a spectrum of the original molecular characteristics of water.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
12:51 / 26.10.06
The attempts of Schlebusch, Maric-Oehler & Popp to "prove" the existence of Chinese Acupuncture meridians has been criticised in terms of both their methodology (i.e. problems over the use of thermographic imaging techniques) and interpretations of findings. Also, the researchers do not mention which acupuncture reference texts they referred to - which in itself is a key point as there are often variations in different Traditional Chinese Medicine texts.

Further, an attempt to repeat their work in a controlled study was inconclusive
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
13:43 / 26.10.06
trouser, thanks for that. do you know where to read that critics, please (i only find material in german) ...
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:05 / 27.10.06
Certain Physical Manifestation and Effects of External Qi of Yan Xin Life Science Technology

I have experienced chi, in reality i dont need empirical evidence, as i have faith in myself and my own experience, but i do enjoy debate. Once you have felt and know something yourself you have a more certain notion of the reality of chi, i would advise somebody to take up a practice like qi gong or tai chi and judge through there own experiments and interactions with these systems.

More scientific research into qi here

Detracting opinions can be seen on a wikipedia search for qi or qi gong.

Once experienced thou the physical, mental, emotional and spiritual experience of qi cant be denied, I am also slowly but surely coming to that opinion of reiki too through learning and practice.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:10 / 27.10.06
I think some of the problems with the validity of chinese research as percieved by western scientists is political as much as it cultural, chinese culture has been stepped in TCM philosophy and application for over 3000 years and it basically seems to work.

It may well be counter intuitive to the way western education systems teach, but in my experience chi exsists, i dont expect that to convince anybody, but then i dont really have to convice anybody, all i need do is experience it myself.
 
 
grant
16:18 / 27.10.06
On a completely different scientific tack, solid water -- formed by X-rays into a hydrogen/oxygen alloy -- becomes a powerful explosive.

Researchers have now used x-rays to dissociate water at high pressure to form a solid mixture--an alloy--of molecular oxygen and molecular hydrogen. The work, by a multi-institutional team that includes Russell Hemley and Ho-kwang Mao of Carnegie's Geophysical Laboratory, appears in the October 27 issue of Science.

The researchers subjected a sample of water to extremely high pressures--about 170,000 times the pressure at sea level (17 Gigapascals)--using a diamond anvil, and zapped it with high-energy x-rays. Under these conditions, nearly all the water molecules split apart and re-formed into a solid alloy of O2 and H2. X-radiation proved to be the key to cleaving the O-H bonds in water; without it, the water remained in a high-pressure form of ice known as ice VII--one of at least 15 such variants of ice that exist under high pressure and variable temperature conditions.

..."The new radiation chemistry at high pressure was surprising," said lead author Wendy Mao of Los Alamos National Laboratory. "The new alloy containing the incompatible oxygen and hydrogen molecules will be a highly energetic material."


"Highly energetic" being what I'm reading as explosive. (Plus, well, Los Alamos being a defense lab and all.)

More at Science magazine (which requires a subscription to read the full article).
 
 
Glandmaster
22:36 / 29.10.06
Wow neat thread - no time to digest all this and respond so for now will chuck a few links your way, both from my time running a alternative health clinic.

First is Dr Batamanghelidj's Water Cure which revolutionised how I deal with my own disability. His main book 'Water Cure' is well worth a read but beware the smaller books of his - basically adverts for the main book that you pay for...

The second seems to be elluding me at the moment. I am sure it was Dr Schneider or Dr Schlumberger but google isnt helping today it seems. I tried two products at the clinic. The first was a standard water jug with a motorised stirrer in the top that made a vortex when switched on. It was supposed to return the water to a 'living' state but I was not able to conduct a long term trial. The water definatly tasted thicker, kind of like the difference between oaked and unoaked wine. The second was the egg. a Foot tall ceramic egg that sat in a stand and had a hole at the top to pour water in and a tap to take it out. You leave the water for an hour and the shape of the egg allegedly makes and keeps it fresh. Again I had little chance to play with this and its worth pointing out that the clinic had the best water filter available fitted at the mains.

The thing that interested me about these products to start with was the claim that the first was conceived whilst looking into how fish gills handle water, the second from research into why are eggs egg shaped. Dr Batman first noticed the effects of water as a political prisoner and was forced to try and be a Dr with no drugs. I find that the discoveries that inspire me most are the discoveries that clever peeps stumble on.
 
 
Glandmaster
23:10 / 29.10.06
Checked back in my order book it was Dr Schauberger. Schlumberger was the company Whitbred outsourced its payroll to while I was there and Dr Schneider may have invented nasty yoghurts that come in small bottles. Maybe I have water on the brain...

'The science of working with Nature, called Eco-technology, was developed by Viktor Schauberger, whose painstaking observations of living water earned him the title of 'The Water Wizard'. He realised that the key to energy restoration is the Vortex. His password was 'Comprehend and copy Nature'. He invented a machine based on the movements of a natural stream that spun water in a vortical movement, transforming degraded water into spring quality water with healing qualities.' Source.

That link has other info on water and a link to Dr Batmans real book 'Your Body's Many Cries for Water' - 'Water Cure' is the jumped up promo leaflet!

I am struggling to find much info on the egg - most of the articles are about the man not his inventions - too right in a way what a guy. Here is a instruction leaflet for the egg I found (PDF).
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
10:48 / 30.10.06
Schauberg! The developer of implosion devices and nazi UFO's !! link
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:32 / 30.10.06
This article seems to be written from a very personal perspective, yet it seems to have some intresting reflections on the nature of water if you will pardon the pun. Faces moving upon the deep and catching there own reflections and all that.

Washed in the Water of Aquarius and Not the Blood of Aries - A New Paradigm
 
 
Quantum
13:28 / 30.10.06
Interesting- I find myself sceptical of a lot of the new age technogizmos though, some are genuinely worthwhile even if they seem wacky at first (I had my feet electrolysed once and it really did detox me- cured my hangover no less) but a lot are just flim-flam. I hadn't heard of Schauberger before;

After the war, Schauberger worked on a concept involving perpetual motion leading to water-based power generation through vortex action, in a closed cycle

"Very little of Schauberger's work has received mainstream acceptance, and the bulk of his work would likely be classified as pseudo-science."
 
 
Glandmaster
01:21 / 01.11.06
"Very little of Schauberger's work has received mainstream acceptance, and the bulk of his work would likely be classified as pseudo-science."

To meet Wikipedia's quality standards, this article or section may require cleanup.

The neutrality of this article is disputed. (talk page)

So pseudo science from the pseudo encyclopedia! I recommend attempting any experiment yourself and as such the vortex jug at £10 ish is possible but sadly the egg was £150 inc postage.

As I said above the jugs results were instant and seem obvious in a still water stagnates moving oxygenated water doesn't stylee. The egg I will not vouch for as we only got to play with it for a short time and given the small amount it holds I am unsure as to the validity of the keeps things fresh claims.

Nazi UFOs eh? Fucking rock star!
 
 
Quantum
18:13 / 01.11.06
still water stagnates moving oxygenated water doesn't

I can see what you mean but I'm not sure how a vortex oxygenates water any better than mixing it up or shaking it or bubbling air through it.
 
 
Quantum
18:23 / 01.11.06
From the linked wikipedia discussion page;
'...removing Frank Germano's research on Viktor Schauberger, is somehow be justified in your mind?'
'Well yes. I did it precisely because they take the anti-gravity devices seriously...'
later-
'Are you working for one of the agency's payed by the oil boys to spread misinformation everywhere where there is the danger of people becoming aware?'

Strikes me that the people wanting to include the perpetual motion machine and nazi UFO refs are a bit... eccentric, and the people wanting to exclude them are sensible. Or payed by the oil boys (sic).
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
21:17 / 01.11.06
Link.
 
  

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