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Underground > Comic Books >

Grant Morrison Bites

  
  

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H3ct0r L1m4
22:35 / 25.10.06
after SANDMAN, I suppose INVISBLES was the 90's comic that DID actualy cracked open most of its readers heads and had some of them generate a cult following to Morrison's ideas.

of course Mozz's body of work IS relevant on many levels. he's better than Moore in my opinion, it's just that the bearded Magus' work are an easier read in general and got more publicity - him being THE 1st Wave of British writers and all. [Morrison being part of the 2nd]
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
06:56 / 26.10.06
Hector, we're talking about Grant Morrison's recent output and how that might differ in quality from his previous work. Any thoughts?
 
 
Tom Coates
07:39 / 26.10.06
Haus, you're being mean.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:31 / 26.10.06
Not really, Tom. Asking people to contribute in a manner relevant to the topic and showing some interest in reading and responding to what other people have already said has never been considered as unnecessary cruelty on Barbelith, and will, I hope, continue not to be so considered.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
11:08 / 26.10.06
Haus, my reply was related to the "Lennon" discussion upthread and to his relevancy as an author these days.

but since you asked I'll repeat what I've said in the discussions of his Wildstorm output: the way I see, GM seems overloaded with work and his views towards writing and the World have changed over the years.

plus, the guy's gotten older [who knew?], for better or worse. you can sense him a bit tired with everything or simply more refined, depending on how you approach his work as a reader.

to me lately it's the second for the creator-owned books and the first for company-owned titles [ASS not being 100% in this second cathegory].
 
 
Mark Wallace
05:27 / 31.10.06
I've never been a fan of Morrison's; his work is too forced, for me. He tries too hard to be weird, and it too often comes off as artificial. It's plain that he's faking it, a lot of the time.

That said, a lot of his comics have been a lot better than most other comics. If offered a choice between 50 boxes of free Roy Thomas mags and one free Morrison mag, I'd go away with one free hand.
 
 
Spaniel
08:43 / 31.10.06
It's plain that he's faking it, a lot of the time.

Er, examples with explanations please.
 
 
Spaniel
08:47 / 31.10.06
Also please to explain what you mean by "tries too hard" and "weird".

For the record, weird is a shit, reductive word.
 
 
The Natural Way
09:06 / 31.10.06
Yeah, Mark, I challenge you to come back here and justify that kind of sweeping, lazy *criticism*. I'm sure you won't, but hey ho.....
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
09:24 / 31.10.06
and who's a good writer for you, Mark? just for the sake of comparison.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:24 / 31.10.06
I am currently praying at the small altar of my ancestors that the response is "John Byrne". Whatever it is, could we try to be a little nice to the new member on his first day?
 
 
doctorbeck
12:28 / 31.10.06
for me the problem with GMs work is not trying too hard to be weird, its not trying hard enough to hang the wonderful explosion of ideas on a coherent and well paced plot, tho work like animal man is an obvious exception to that,

comics like the last 2 x-arcs, the invisibles and dc one million suffer badly from creaky plotting, seems like 7 soldiers does too,

whereas shorter less ambitious (in length and plot terms) comics like vinanerama make it easier for me to enjoy the explosion of ideas they bring.
 
 
This Sunday
13:26 / 31.10.06
I don't think you can "try too hard" in creative expression, any more than you can be "not trying hard enough." It depends on the artist and their work.

Being too weird, like being too witty, is just a horrible accusation that has never, once, made me see these things as a problem in the work. Wit is good, and weird is just an interesting angle. Nothing more.

To communicate best, interesting angles must be examined or presented. To keep interest, you've got to have some novelty, right? Some new-ness to the thing, while retaining enough familiarity for some grounding.

I do think Morrison makes you connect a bit of everything on your own, but he's correct in his assertion, in the 'Invisibles' annotation-book interview, where he's basically coming on with "it's all in there. People may forget between issues, but it's all there." Even Roger's revival at the end, whether Mr. Morrison intended it or not.

Because, it's not about intention, really. Or effort. It's the state of the work once it's in front of an audience. And I don't think it has to crack heads and brake bad brain diseases or anything... elevate us to new levels of cosmic squidery. It's just a map, right? Fiction maps. Not fiction guides to life what we must obey. Not explorations of how goofily weird can I be to secure my place as mythic god supreme of the weirdy weird kids. Sometimes it's just this old guy and his dying cat. Or King Mob shooting the fuck out of everything. Shaving the Shaggy Man.

Which is great. Really excellent and bang on.

And if it's witty and interesting and not like much else on the market, so much the better.

But, really, "too weird" just reads to me like "can't be bothered to think for two seconds on the element/issue" and "too witty" which, thankfully, I don't think anyone's pulled in this thread, yet (but give it time), is just "the bad writer made me put two and two together while I was distracted by the pretty lights."

Maybe someone's got some more interesting or useful analyses to dredge out of these accusations, but really, isn't it more entertaining to just go pick up another Morrison comic?

Head-breaking is overrated. I haven't had my head intensely busted since highschool, when I first heard the "you kiss like a girl" and tried to make something other than amphigory out of it. No issue of "The Invisibles" has done that much wrecking to me, I'm afraid. And they shouldn't have to. Several issues of that series, and many things Morrison has done since, up to the present, do give a moment or a sense of "well, that's a hell of a thing," and that's all I'm really looking for.

And they are. Hell of thing.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
13:29 / 31.10.06
got to say vinamarama is probably the worst gm comic I've read. I also didn't really enjoy Bond's work on the title either.

whereas the recent batman and one or two of ASS is up there with the best of his superhero stuff.

I don't really see a dip in form, any of that. There's always been a variance in quality with GM's output. then again, the quality barometer has much to do with what you like to read.

so, no I couldn't be arsed with JLA - but could see it was good.

Whereas I could be arsed with Vinamarama, and felt it to be substandard - for the Mozz.

Seaguy, however, is growing in quality, the longer I put off reading it again.

I remember thinking Animal Man was a major step back from Zenith when I first read it, and I still think there's a lot of poor issues in the run. though, yes, overall, it came together and . . . worked. (and thrilled)

Arkham Asylum too did very little for me - though at the time I enjoyed the ‘Art’.

Kill your Boyfriend? - boring. no matter how many times I read it.

As for the Invisibles - that's a one off - I don't even think of it as a comic. Really, it's crazy that such a thing was published - but thank god it was. Same for the Filth.

Marvel Boy - pure pop magic. The best take on the Marvel universe, since stan and jack created it. really - I think that.

Some of the Xmen stuff I really really loved - the jiminez emma frost ish where she was 'shattered', the silvestri run at the end, the camping trip issue. all of them oozed passion and creepiness and all had enough sentimentality and nostalgia to do me for the week I read them but then some of it was truly awful: the issue where magneto has his head chopped off spring to mind - it was just rubbish.

the other thing is - if gm was given the opp to write this many titles ten years ago, he would have taken it.

And I was never really enamoured with Doom Patrol but consider Death Force (?) to be one of the funniest things I've ever read.

Then of course, there’s WE3 which combined all the things I like best about a GM comic: nostalgia, sentimentality, technology, ultra-violence, melancholia, formal experimentation, politics and contemporary themes.

He’s still the same guy in my opinion.

And for those who think he’s less relevant etc. compared with the ‘90s. Perhaps its just that you yourself have moved on a bit (let’s fucking hope so, eh?).

Ps. The longer I’m separated from that cheeseball of a comic, Wildcats #1, the more it’s silver-embossed allure seems to grow.
 
 
PatrickMM
14:42 / 31.10.06
While Animal Man may be a more narratively cohesive work than his later stuff, it's also packed with filler issues and doesn't really get going until the last trade. The stuff of his that usually doesn't work is when he goes for a massively ambitious storyline, without giving us the background to follow it, or the time to fully develop it. That's the issue with NXM's 'Here Comes Tomorrow,' as well as the at times brilliant, but difficult to follow 3.4-3.2 arc in The Invisibles.

To fully understand a GM comic, you have to unpack it, the analysis is as much a part of it as the first read. If you don't go deeper, it's very easy to say that was a pretty good, weird story, but the further you go into it, the more connections you find. This is particularly true of bigger works, like The Invisibles and Seven Soldiers, which serve as a starting point for an in depth anaysis of whatever issue they're discussing.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
14:50 / 31.10.06
sometimes the missing context makes for an even better story, I'd say. (such as in here comes tomorrow) though I understand your viewpoint patrick.
 
 
Spaniel
14:51 / 31.10.06
Actually I think they demand more than analysis: They sometimes involve extra-curricular reading, often demand a base level of knowledge (to get the most of of them), and frequently require the ability to fill in plot-holes.

I'm making it sound as if I don't like GM's stuff, which couldn't be further from the truth, so I'll shut up now.

Mark, sorry for the abrasive post. It's just that if I want the level of analysis you provided I'll head to Newsarama. On Barbelith you have to work to get your point across and are likely to get peoples' backs up if you don't.

Also, I can be a miserable fucker so sometimes it's better if you ignore me.
 
 
This Sunday
15:01 / 31.10.06
I think the only time in-depth analysis is called for, in a Morrison comic, is when a small bit of analysis is done on the fly. It's perfectly possible to read them like watching a music video or passing a mural on the street, without having any impetus to delve deep and serious into hidden meanings or connections. Once that first incision is made, however, full autopsy seems to want to follow.

When we stop to wonder about the methods of the Harlquinade in "The Invisibles" or try to roll around for taste the gigantic Mars sting of "DC 1 Mil" new layers are presented and we have the urge to dig in. Without scratching the surface, though, I doubt we'd ever get the idea we need to dig at all. The surface, for the most, holds.

Can anyone give solid, single-instance examples of what was a confusing or, in their opinion, poorly-constructed connection or narrative element in one comic or comics series? And not a "I had to read the words in the panels, for that issue, and nobody told me ahead of time, so when I skipped them I missed important information in the 'three days later' marker next to the full-bleed splash page of the Not-Hawkman and Rubberfella," please. Something like those time-maggot illos by Wood, that were very excellently translated, again, for the eventual TPB.

Actually, if Cameron Stewart or anyone else who's seen Morrison scripts before, proper, cares to comment, it'd be interesting to know how much effort they feel they've had to put into reading and interpretting. Maybe sometimes it's just the artist not wanting to draw a map of the universe onto a eclipse, or somebody misunderstanding a reference, along the line through writer, artist, editors and colorists and all.

But, I will accept the possibility that Morrison really does have this flaw in his writing, and if some solid, speciic examples are given, I might even agree that it's true.

Oh, and the saving graces of "Vimanarama" were the hammer and rope. Actually "hammer and rope" might become my new version of "that's the shit!"
 
 
This Sunday
15:04 / 31.10.06
Was "What's wrong with talking shit? I like talking shit and I'm good at it," or something very similar from a Morrison interview, or a Millar?

Maybe it was both of them, back in the day.

But it's true. Both talk good shit, and inspire good boards and good audiences for that kind of thing. Just look at the pages and throw hypotheticals and possibilities all glorious at you, and how can any Morrison comic let you down?
 
 
PatrickMM
15:07 / 31.10.06
Boboss, I'd agree that a lot of the time you need more than just what's in the book. At this point, GM reminds me of David Lynch, in that he's got a personally unique set of themes and symbols. I know if I'd never read any GM stuff before, I'd be very confused by an issue like Zatanna #4. However, having read Animal Man and The Invisibles, I can process what he's doing and understand the shortcuts he uses to convey his intentions. It's the same way that Lost Highway initially mystified a lot of people, but after Mulholland Dr. was released, there was a better context for understnading it.

And, I think Grant is deliberately using these shortcuts, touching on old concepts, but then quickly pushing them in a new direction. I think part of the reason for the seemingly sloppy and fragmented nature of something like 'Here Comes Tomorrow' is that he has the whole story in his head, and the writing of it is secondary to the actual creative process that he went through. By the time it's going down on paper, he's already moved on.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:30 / 31.10.06
Was "What's wrong with talking shit? I like talking shit and I'm good at it," or something very similar from a Morrison interview, or a Millar?

Maybe it was both of them, back in the day.

Probably Millar, who'd been given the gag ahead of time by George.

I jest. I have no idea. It's a good line, though.
 
 
Tom Coates
16:37 / 31.10.06
I often think one of the problems with Grant's work is that he often seems to work with wide spreads of artists on the same series of issues, and it regularly feels like the newer ones don't have the depth of history or built up communication relationship with Grant that you really need to be able to manifest sometimes quite complex imagery and ideas in a consistent and self-reinforcing way. I often felt through the first volume of the Invisibles that I was rather lost and unclear about what was going on - it was hard to tell whether something was plot interesting or an artifact of the artists particular style. I don't think it's an accident that Grant's stuff with Phil Jiminez, Frank Quitely or Chas Truog has always been pretty extraordinary - it's normally because they commit to full runs of issues and so the whole thing feels of a part and can support the incredible pace and density of ideas without distracting one way or another.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:07 / 31.10.06
The mashup of art styles (which I know wasn't intentional) certainly didn't help with Mister Miracle, which I was feeling fairly distanced from already- some consistency there might have at least given me a sense of familiarity by the end of the series.

It's a shame, really, because on my second reading MM had a lot of the really cool shit I was hoping for (I was prepared to love it from the moment I learned it began with a super-escapologist escaping from a black hole; really, that is EXACTLY the kind of thing I want from a Mozz comic- it just didn't grab me as well as it might have).
 
 
The Natural Way
17:10 / 31.10.06
I actually really love the escape-from-samsara vibe of MM#4. It just seems so right and great that the last trap should be the merry-go-round of birth and death, and that Mr Miracle should be all about besting it. That final panel with him eating the ice-cream... Great..
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:15 / 31.10.06
Oh yeah, the last issue really did make me wish I'd felt a bit more for it all along. It felt kind of like walking in on the really good ending of a movie, except that I had been there for the middle, and just hadn't got it.

Actually, that's it- Mister Miracle, to me, started and ended brilliantly. I have no idea what happened in the middle.
 
 
houdini
18:23 / 31.10.06
Hello.

Been a while since I posted here. A while since I read comics regularly, either.

In fact, I stopped my pamphlet habit when Grant's last NewXmeN came out. (Although I am still stubbornly waiting for the last few Planetary issues to leak out.)

I still buy a bunch of stuff in TPB and have been enjoying picking up the Doom Patrol stuff as it came out. I have about half of it in back issues back in Scotland, but it's nice to get it all clean and shiny and in a format that's easily loaned to other folk.

Compared to that, I've felt very un-motivated to pick up 7 Soldiers, or the Batman/Superman stuff. I guess for me, as a consumer, old Morrisson is competing directly with new Morrisson and old Mozz is totally winning. I have fairly thin $$$ for comics these days and I will buy Doom Patrol vol4 unquestioningly before I pick up 7 Soldiers.

I don't think that means Grant "bites" or anything. Just that it's hard to continue to have really novel, earth-shaking ideas all the time. "Great art" or not, 'The Invisibles' was really, really different from anything else on the shelves when it came out. So was 'Flex Mentallo, Man of Muscle Mystery' (my personal favourite Mozz-outing). But once you've taken a huge chunk of your thought and put it out there you don't necessarily grow a new thought of equal size and worth to replace it. Which is, to me, why 'The Filth' felt like a repeat/development of some ideas from 'The Invisibles' and 'We3' (which was great, mind) seemed like a continuation of a lot of the themes from 'Animal Man'.

How much can Grant really have left in him that he hasn't had an opportunity to say by now?

I'm not sure it works that way.
 
 
--
20:23 / 31.10.06
My problem with Mister Miracle was I felt there was a lot of padding at some points... Like that whole death car derby thing, which just seemed like a long, drawn-out, kind of banal action sequence. It doesn't help that I know nothing about the new gods, though.

I will give GM credit and say that he still has his trademark sense of humor. He does have a way with one-liners. But a lot of his recent stuff strikes me as very flippant. Weird, funny, witty, still fun to read, but there doesn't seem to be much "there" there. I only really dig under the surface of things when I get the feeling that I might actually benefit from doing so, and I haven't got that feeling with his more current work (and this is coming from a guy who spent countless hours trying to figure out "The Invisibles").

Still, better to fail gloriously then do mediocre work. I think it would behoove GM to maybe plan things out a bit better before embarking on these epic projects. I mean, it's not like he can't end projects on a solid note... "Animal Man" and "Doom Patrol" had very satisfying endings. I sometimes get the feeling that he doesn't always know how a story of his will end, and he often seems to improvise. Granted, it's tough... I mean, if he was writing a book or something, he could take all the time in the world, but with a monthly comic there must be all sorts of deadlines... All the more reason to plan ahead of time!
 
 
Mr. Austin
22:00 / 31.10.06
The one thing I never understood was how Grant Morrison never really made it that big despite having done 1001 things over the past 20 years that have been big parts of the comics industry.

When I read about comics he's one of the bigger names (and not just here) to get mentioned, but to about 99% of the people I talk about him with I get a cocked eyebrow.
 
 
diz
05:45 / 01.11.06
I often think one of the problems with Grant's work is that he often seems to work with wide spreads of artists on the same series of issues, and it regularly feels like the newer ones don't have the depth of history or built up communication relationship with Grant that you really need to be able to manifest sometimes quite complex imagery and ideas in a consistent and self-reinforcing way.

I've heard that he's notoriously uncommunicative with his artists, too, which I'm sure can't help much.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
07:00 / 01.11.06
It's ironic that Morrison talks, or used to, about making (his) comics the equivalent of pop culture fast-food, trainers and CDs, because in fact his comics speak to the fanboy and girl, to the obscure corners of the DCU mythos, to Silver Age nostalgia, esoteric notions and/or to novel, experimental storytelling techniques... they're far less likely than Frank Miller's work to cross over and prove accessible to a mainstream, non-comics readership. Even All-Star Superman,intended to break out of the ghetto and be picked up by people who only know Superman from the movies, is really a love-letter to a specific era of comic book, and is something that would, I think, appeal to people who recognise a certain type of cover image and form of Kryptonite, while leaving most non-fans cold or baffled.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:00 / 01.11.06
Decrescent Daytripper Can anyone give solid, single-instance examples of what was a confusing or, in their opinion, poorly-constructed connection or narrative element in one comic or comics series?

I must admit that I've never felt that I understood the 'Rebis has sex on the moon' issue of Doom Patrol, or what it was for. I also think the backstory of Crazy Jane could have been explained clearer though I think I understood it eventually.
 
 
The Natural Way
11:03 / 01.11.06
I think to really understand the Rebis begetting himself on the moon stuff you probably need a big fat primer on medieval alchemy.
 
 
diz
19:54 / 01.11.06
I think to really understand the Rebis begetting himself on the moon stuff you probably need a big fat primer on medieval alchemy.

And you have to be able to process metaphor. No schizophrenics allowed.
 
 
The Natural Way
07:27 / 02.11.06
Schizophrenics are allowed on the moon. They just won't understand.
 
 
Quantum
09:48 / 02.11.06
At the risk of drawing MARRIAGE's wrath, I bought the first GM Batman and haven't read one since because it was so bad. The first few pages were hackeyed and the panel where Bruce is in the lift and says 'There goes my vacation' made me cringe. CHEESE!
Usual disclaimers apply- it might get better, he's busy, you can't write The Filth every time, I have the wrong eyes, I just don't understand Batman/GM/comics...
 
  

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