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Politics of white adoption of dreadlocks

 
  

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All Acting Regiment
07:22 / 26.10.06
Something that saddens me about this sort of discussion is the frequent attribution of blame to people for the (presumed) deeds of their ancestors. It appears (to my poor eyes) that this is a grievous generalisation. Particularly, when applied to the various brutalities of (white / hispanic) colonialism, it attributes blame broadly to the entire (white / hispanic) race, and does not consider the then-current divisions of power within those races. To blame some poor bugger in a cotton mill (insert any disempowered person here) for oppressing India (insert wherever or whoever the empowered people were busy fucking over here), say, seems a poor thing to do. To blame the descendants of that person - to attribute to them an ongoing guilt - seems a stranger thing. To generalise that guilt across an entire race seems highly dubious. There is and has been guilt; there are and have been guilty people, there are and have been guilty sections of societies and nations; but they are not, I think, simple enough to be treated as race vs race, neither directly (your white/whatever ancestors did such-and-such) or indirectly (white/whatever people did such-and-such, you are white/whatever, you are benefitting from what they did, because you and they are white/whatever you share some communal guilt). It's just, well, not complicated enough.

Well, okay, but you know today's continuing conditions of priviledge exist because of a status quo set down back in that age colonisation- that America, the UK and the "west" in general are still benefitting hugely from it...in many ways that age isn't over at all...we have not reset to the precolonial state. The colonial powers still retain huge millitary and geographic influence, but most of all they are in charge of economics: rules are laid down and deals are done specifically to disadvantage the disadvantaged even more. The G8 summit, yeah?

So, while I absolutely see your point about class and responsibility, I don't think this, or any other discussion about empire, is about blaming people now for something bad their ancestors did ages ago, and which is now finished, as much as it's about being aware of where our wealth is coming from, and continues to come from, and the nasty shit therein.
 
 
illmatic
08:19 / 26.10.06
I agree completely with Legba on that point. If you're white, you have a certain of privelege on racial grounds which is benefiting you in a lot of ways which you may not even be conscious of. This isn't negated or wiped away by your personal economic circumstances. As Legba says it isn't blaming, it's acknowledging.
 
 
illmatic
08:27 / 26.10.06
Hold on, wasn't this to a large degree what this discussion has been about? The fact that white people with dreads are read differently than black people with dreads and that this has it's origins in racial privelge.

Kay, you say It's just, well, not complicated enough. Well, to me, denying that whiteness has an unequal and dispropotionate amount of privelege attached to it - and that this power relationship has it's roots in colonialilism - well, that's a simplificaion if ever I've heard one.
 
 
illmatic
08:41 / 26.10.06
BTW even though I disagreed with a lot of what Legba said in his opening post, I still hope I haven't offended hiom by challenging him, largely becuas I think there's a willingness to interrogate and think about one's own racial privelege which is great. However, I don't see this same willingness in what you've written above, Kay.
 
 
Lurid Archive
08:58 / 26.10.06
Well, okay, but you know today's continuing conditions of priviledge exist because of a status quo set down back in that age colonisation- that America, the UK and the "west" in general are still benefitting hugely from it. - Legba

Which is certainly true, but this continuing economic privilege (in bodies like the G8) isn't obviously very much to do with cultural appropriation - one might even argue that a hesitancy to interact with other cultures, like learning different languages, may well do something to shore up this privilege.

If you're white, you have a certain of privelege on racial grounds which is benefiting you in a lot of ways which you may not even be conscious of. This isn't negated or wiped away by your personal economic circumstances. - Pegs

But the kind of privilege that Legba talks about above when referring to the G8 isn't the kind of privilege that is wiped out by race either. Every inhabitant of the UK is a recipient of the privilege that comes from living in one the wealthiest countries, and if being economically disadvantaged isn't a relevant consideration here, then neither is one's race, is it? Because if one were to insist that it was in this context, then it is awfully close to a racist division of UK citizens into "real", as a euphemism for "white" or anglo-saxon or something similar, and other.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:18 / 26.10.06
Which is certainly true, but this continuing economic privilege (in bodies like the G8) isn't obviously very much to do with cultural appropriation

No, indeed. That was Kay going offtopic. New thread?
 
 
illmatic
09:19 / 26.10.06
Lurid, my bad. My comments were kind of directed at Kay. I was just trying to short-circuit the “I am poor, I can’t possibly be benefiting from privileges associated with my skin colour” defence.
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:03 / 26.10.06
And you are absolutely right in that, Pegs. But, without wanting to deny the validity of that point, I think it is slightly complicated for various reasons. Partly, because I'm starting to wonder whether race as a concept actually works - it certainly becomes difficult, even a touch incoherent, if you look at it too closely. (I'm tempted, on occasion, to ask for a *definition* of race.)

And one way you can see this is if you look at global inequality - which is a very serious problem - and imagine this as a consequence of white privilege in a way that justifies talking about white privilege inside rich nations.
 
 
nighthawk
12:27 / 26.10.06
White people sometimes lift the external manifestation of a cultural practice and adopt it as a stylistic or aesthetic element, or to express our* "solidarity" with people whom, frequently, we don't actually understand very well

Yes, but that's something people have always done when they come across other cultures, isn't it? I hope I'm not being obtuse here, but I don't understand why people keep juxtaposing 'aesthetic' appropriation with knowledge.

Understanding that this springs out of racial privilege is important to me.

That what springs out of racial privilege? The practice of borrowing from other cultures? Is that true? Are 'racially privileged' cultures the only ones that do this? I'm sure its worth considering how cultures have met - no doubt colonialism seriously affected the dynamics of appropriation - but I'm not sure I see how that relates to the points people have made here.

Perhaps I'm just missing why things like white people with dreadlocks are significant. Is it a case of atonement for collective guilt? Or is it overcoming racism? Because if it is the latter, I'm struggling to see how a person's haircut is significant.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:32 / 26.10.06
Every inhabitant of the UK is a recipient of the privilege that comes from living in one the wealthiest countries, and if being economically disadvantaged isn't a relevant consideration here, then neither is one's race, is it? Because if one were to insist that it was in this context, then it is awfully close to a racist division of UK citizens into "real", as a euphemism for "white" or anglo-saxon or something similar, and other.

I'm happy to know that non-white people in Britain are in no way economically disadvantaged ever as a result of their origins or perceptions of their race, but perhaps we could learn more about this gratifying development in another thread?
 
 
Lurid Archive
18:06 / 26.10.06
Not what I meant, nor what I said, as I suspect you know.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:30 / 26.10.06
Thing is, if a white guy doesn't wash his hair for ages, but runs his fingers through it occasionally, as many of us do instinctively or nervously, he'll end up with dreads. This would be the case even if Rastafarianism did not exist.

By which I mean- this is by no means a pointless discussion, but I'm fairly sure *white people wearing dreads = appropriating other people's culture in a racist manner* can't be taken as a given.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:18 / 26.10.06
Not what I meant, nor what I said, as I suspect you know.

Actually, your suspicion is incorrect. If that isn't what you are saying I have no idea what you are saying. I would be interested to know what you are saying, because either your powers of explication or my powers of comprehension have failed. However, this may not be the thread for it.
 
 
Mon Oncle Ignatius
22:27 / 26.10.06
Can I just step into this (very interesting) discussion for a moment to note that Rastas generally don't like the term Rastafarianism very much.

I'll try to contribute to the specific topic when I can express myself coherently.
 
 
redtara
22:28 / 26.10.06
I absolutely totally agree with Kay, historical guilt is redundant.

I knew some German people, and while I don't think for a second that they spoke for all Germans, one or two of them talked about the experience of having Schindlers List timetabled in school as a government initiative to get every child of a certain age exposed to it. They talked about feeling forced to feel guilty and reposible for the actions of others before they were born.

i think historical events can be examined and represented by new generations without there being a necessity to apoint blame. I have a grave understanding of the impact slavery had on my own home town. In many ways we were it's engine. My understanding of the suffering that built the buildings just declared a UNESCO world heritage site without any reference to their 'real' heritage, means that I can acknowledge the pasts place in the present. I do not do this for black people, I do this for me. Just trying to keep it all real.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:45 / 26.10.06
"Blame" and "guilt" are useful concepts for heading off conversations about history and accountability, but I don't know if feeling bad is either the worst suffering or the intended aim. I'm a little surprised that teaching German children about one of the most significant events in their country's 130-oddd years of existence would be met with such hostility - is it possible, perhaps, that the intention was not to make the poor mites feel guilty, but to help them to understand their country's history better? Germany, after all, took accountability for the actions of its leaders and, recent proclamations by Benedict XVI notwithstanding, the complicity of many of its citizens. It was divided for a long time, occupied for many years, its Bundeswehr was until pretty much now not allowed to operate in foreign fields of conflict. Is this the imposition of guilt or the teaching of twentieth-century history? Is a student in the US reading Invisible Man or Clock without Hands to be protected, in case it might make them feel bad?

The fact that Mossadagh's attempts to nationalise the Anglo-Persian Oil Company led to a crippling embargo on Iran's oil reserves, to pluck an example from the air, does not make me feel personally guilty. The fact that Iran's democratic government was destablised by the CIA and replaced by an autocrat does not make me feel guilty personally. The fact that the abuses of power by that autocracy contributed to an Islamic revolution that led to the suppression of many of the freedoms of the Iranian people does not afflict me with guilt. After all, as we know, we can use those crazy Muslims to avoid addressing any other injustice or bigotry, so thank God we managed to help create that state of affairs. None of this makes me feel guilty, as such. It doesn't make me feel like blaming myself, personally. It does invite me to think about the role my nation and nations operating with my nation played in making life worse for other, more tan people, and incites me to wonder about how this world that we live in has come about, and how an understanding of how we got to where we are might help to untangle where we go. For example, it might help to illustrate where those crazy Muslims are coming from with their crazy distrust of the US and its allies.

I don't really see where guilt comes into this.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:31 / 27.10.06
Me, earlier: Well, okay, but you know today's continuing conditions of priviledge exist because of a status quo set down back in that age colonisation- that America, the UK and the "west" in general are still benefitting hugely from it.

Lurid: Which is certainly true, but this continuing economic privilege (in bodies like the G8) isn't obviously very much to do with cultural appropriation - one might even argue that a hesitancy to interact with other cultures, like learning different languages, may well do something to shore up this privilege.

This may be, but then, isn't turning someone else's culture into a commodity whilst having no real contact (which may be happening in this case or may not) the ultimate "hesitancy to interact"? Which goes back to the start of the argument.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:40 / 27.10.06
I absolutely totally agree with Kay, historical guilt is redundant.

Just to add to what Haus is saying, yes, historical guilt possibly is a bad thing, if by "historical guilt is redundant" you mean "simply feeling guilty about something and hating yourself is unproductive".

But, I think, and I think you would agree, that actually perfectly reasonable attempts to try to get white people to think about the nasty history that they're involved in are often met with accusations of "guilt-mongering"?

Or, that "white guilt" and "liberal guilt" are used by the right to label and disparage/discredit serious and valid concerns the (still) most powerful people in the world might have about their place and actions?

So it's not so much that you're wrong as that you're sometimes seeing guilt when actually something far more constructive is taking place. Also, in today's climate, I don't think it's white people who are being encouraged to feel guilty.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:48 / 27.10.06
BTW even though I disagreed with a lot of what Legba said in his opening post, I still hope I haven't offended him by challenging him.

Not at all- you've all been helpful and I've learned a lot from this discussion. I think perhaps the very accusative tone of my opening post has something to do with the fact that I live in an area that has been called by certain tosspots "a Carribean ghetto" (it is in fact anything but) whilst commuting in to a largely priviledged university every morning...like a lot of people, day to day, I see a lot of divisions and hear a lot of lies, a lot of which I'm part of, and I'm not very good at being reasonable about them. I may add a note to the opening post to ameliorate the fierceness of it.
 
 
illmatic
11:52 / 27.10.06
Just a footnote: the words "blame" and "guilt" are first employed here by Kay, alongside the statement that this "blame" saddens hir. ("Hey, if you black people would just y'know, stop going on about it all the time, everything would be fine" Sigh.) I think these words are quite deliberately, if unselfconsciously, employed here as way of dismissing legitmate concerns. This is a recurrent theme in Kay's posting.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
11:53 / 27.10.06
So, before we leap into the more unknown fields of colonial guilt and historical accountability, perhaps we can get back to the topic?

To me, this question of cultural appropriation is answered least comprehensively by arguments about what kinds of hair are 'made' for dreadlocks. To start with, to divide hair into objective categories of black and white ignores the fact that 'race' (and hair type as 'evidence' of race) is actually almost entirely culturally constructed. Once you start arguing on that basis you've already accepted race as an objective reality. And you've already accepted that cultural appropriation is a bad thing. Which is also not particularly helpful -- since acts of cultural appropriation, copying, plagiarism, etc ae going on all the time and by all kinds of people, enmeshed in all kinds of colonial and anti-colonial dynamics.

I share Legba's suspicion of 'white folks' with dreadlocks, who also appropriate what they see as 'hip' Jamaican patois, and who see their dreadlocks as a visible symbol of their alternative lifestyle. But what's most problematic is not the borrowing of difference, per se, but that that visible symbol of difference is commodified and reproduced: the incredible branding of 'dread wax' and all the haircare websites telling people how to make the best dreadlocks.

Here's an interesting anarchist perspective on cultural appropriation here which I'll quote below. It steps past categorising cultural appropriation of something like dreadlocks by anyone as colonising, also stepping past the somewhat tricky question of what kinds of hair dread up "naturally", to ask a more important question about commodification.


All culture is plagiarism.

Within radical circles these days, there is much talk about "cultural appropriation". Unfortunately, much of this discussion takes the form of moral debates about whether ifs okay for those of European heritage to wear dreadlocks, perform hip-hop, etc. This is just another example of political correctitude calling us to further renunciations. Rather than continuing these rounds of self-flagellation, I think that it is much more useful to examine the nature of culture and how it has been affected by capital and to consider possible directions for an anarchist response.

First of all, healthy, living cultures are not objects, set in stone once and for all, defined and confined within the prison of national or ethnic borders. Rather, cultures are relationships, not only among the people of the culture, but also with other cultures and people. This means that living cultures are fluid, perpetually changing, taking in and giving out new forms and method of being, becoming and creating. Cultural life depends upon this ongoing process of mutual appropriation. Without it any culture will die, and this is what transforms it into an object.

Capitalism has no culture of its own, precisely because culture requires fluidity and living relationships. When capital appropriates cultures, it destroys them as living entities because it can offer nothing living in return (nor is it interested in doing so). In fact it interacts with the cultures it encounters in the same way as it interacts with every individual life within capitalist society: it reifies, commodifies, fragments, atomizes and homogenizes them. Let's look at this process. Say, for example, that capital encounters the cultures of Morocco. Immediately an assessment of the potentials of production for profit must be made. So an abstract concept of Moroccan culture must be outlined - Moroccan music, Moroccan art, Moroccan fashion, and so on must be defined. The culture must be separated from the entire cultural flow of northern Africa, the Mediterranean, Arabic, Berber and Tuareg migrations and interactions, etc. This fragmentation allows the culture to be reified, made into a set thing rather than a flow of relationships. It also makes it possible for capital to further fragment the culture itself, separating music, for example, from its daily life context. With this separation comes commodification: the music is put on a CD and offered for sale around the world. And here we see the kind of homogenization capitalism imposes. Every kind of music now appears on identical little shiny discs in nearly identical plastic packaging with a price tag. It has all become a product for sale. This transformation of all culture into products for sale reinforces atomization because it is no longer necessary for us to come together and relate in order to create what we love and desire. Instead we can simply buy its reified form at the shop, limiting our human interactions to the exchange of money for goods. Those who make the music become laborers producing a cultural commodity, selling their creativity where it is not simply stolen.
 
 
nighthawk
12:08 / 27.10.06
I'm going to quote the last bit of that article, because its close to what I've been trying to say in this thread:

In light of all this, discussions over Euro-Americans wearing dreadlocks or doing hip-hop are thoroughly irrelevant. Taken to its logical conclusion, this sort of moralizing could end up condemning international travel or learning other languages. It is obvious how absurd and ass-backwards such reasoning is.

The real problem lies with the entire social order of capital and the state which requires the transformation of living human relations into predetermined roles and products from which profit can be drawn. I have already shown how a defensive stance only ends up reinforcing this process. This indicates that it is necessary instead to attack this process of reification, fragmentation, commodification and atomization. And in order to develop this project of attack, the exploited and the dispossessed need to discover ways to interweave their struggles against the ruling order, to find the points of complicity, affinity and solidarity. In this way, what was really living in culture can be rediscovered in the midst of our battle against this society and form the basis for creating new fluid and dynamic relationships capable of realizing our desires and needs in an integrated manner free from the impositions of the economy and the state. Confronting the ruling order in this way may not save what has been, but it will open up new possibilities for life against the way of death imposed by the ruling order.
 
 
nighthawk
12:43 / 27.10.06
Sorry, just to contribute more than a quote...

That is to say, this thread made me a little uneasy because it picked out a heterogenous group of people and highlighted them (? or their hairstyle?) as being 'racist'; people also seemed to imply some sort of distinction between ignorant aesthetic borrowing (bad), and sensitive knowledgeable borrowing (good). It felt a bit like we were distancing ourselves* from these other white people by picking them, and their lifestyle choices, for critique. Obviously this was never the intention, but it seemed as though this covered the fact that, taken to its conclusion, this argument probably means that we are all 'racist', regardless of our knowledge, or our sensitivity, etc. It also suggests that we're not going to end 'racism' by ascetically denying ourselves particular lifestyle choices (i.e. it ruled out the standard 'I know I'm not perfect but at least I'm aware of this and doing something about it...' response). Of course that's a perfectly legitimate position, but then why highlight a particular hairstyle in a manner which distanced 'us' from it?

*Collective pronouns used for the same reasons other posters have.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:46 / 27.10.06
Hmm. Two quotes I'd like to question.

This is just another example of political correctitude calling us to further renunciations.

Hmm?

Moving on, I agree with

The real problem lies with the entire social order of capital and the state which requires the transformation of living human relations into predetermined roles and products from which profit can be drawn.

Yup. The base, that.

But I'm afraid I disagree with this:

In light of all this, discussions over Euro-Americans wearing dreadlocks or doing hip-hop are thoroughly irrelevant. Taken to its logical conclusion, this sort of moralizing could end up condemning international travel or learning other languages. It is obvious how absurd and ass-backwards such reasoning is.

Firstly, I'm not actually that interested in "morals" or "moralizing". This is about ethics. Within this thread I feel a little as though I'm being seen as someone who is saying "White people can not do this ever because it is always evil." This may well be because of my tone.

I'm not trying to say this at all. I'm trying to question whether there are not times when white people doing a certain something in a certain time and place may not in fact be doing the most constructive thing, and may in fact be heading in an unhelpful direction. I don't think me, or anyone else, asking these questions about dreadlocks is moralizing.

Secondly, again, related to what I said just recently, there is no way my argument would end up condemning the learning of other languages. Learning another language is a great thing to do, because mixing and open minded. When talking a foreign language, one of your most important psychic clusters- the mouth/tongue/throat- has it's very physical form and movements changed to accomodate foreign sounds, you are obliged use foreign expressions and ontologies, the world around you is stripped of it's identities and given a host of new ones which shows you the arbitrariness of things you thought eternal, the cultural nature of things you thought natural , it's a process of almost pure engagement...

I only wish more people could learn another language. Now, that's the position I definately, and other people asking the same questions probably, are writing from, and it's unpleasant hyperbole on the author's part to suggest otherwise. The whole point is that the wearing of dreads by whites, in some contexts, may very well not represent the same kind of engagement as that represented by learning another language. It may in fact represent the transformation of living human relations into predetermined roles and products from which profit can be drawn.
 
 
nighthawk
13:14 / 27.10.06
I think we cross-posted there? I hope I made it a bit clearer why I highlighted that quote - not because I agree with it word for word.

I'm trying to question whether there are not times when white people doing a certain something in a certain time and place may not in fact be doing the most constructive thing, and may in fact be heading in an unhelpful direction.

I agree, but is 'having dreadlocks' one of those things? I said this back on page one:

I suppose one could envisage situations in which it might make sense not to wear dreads if one was white and concerned about racism, but I think the examples would all be very concrete and specific, far removed from the general assertion 'white person wearing dreads'='racist'.

I'm not sure I understand what you said about learning languages. But I agree that its perhaps not the best example. I was thinking more along the lines of ones I've already used in this thread, like listening to a particular genre of music.
 
 
nighthawk
13:26 / 27.10.06
Oh, and its also worth pointing out that the right don't have a monopoly on criticisms of 'political correctness' (which is a very nebulous concept whose scope is not restricted to the way British tabloids use it), and I don't think every person who mentions it should be immediately tarnished by association.
 
 
Quantum
13:35 / 27.10.06
I lived in a caribbean neighbourhood for a few years, and picked up certain mannerisms that are typically Jamaican (kissing my teeth for example) that I unconsciously use. I'm a blonde middle class guy, am I a cultural pirate and racist? If not, why would I be for wearing dreadlocks?
 
 
grant
14:00 / 27.10.06
My answer to that would be that kissing the teeth doesn't have the same cultural value as dreadlocks. "Dread" is actually something like mana or qi in Rastafarianism, and the hair is worn intentionally as an outward expression of inner power; I'm unfamiliar with any similar significance to other mannerisms or actions.

The sucking sound might be an appropriation, but it's not nearly as significant (in the sense of, well significance, signifying something).
 
 
All Acting Regiment
21:36 / 28.10.06
I lived in a caribbean neighbourhood for a few years, and picked up certain mannerisms that are typically Jamaican (kissing my teeth for example) that I unconsciously use. I'm a blonde middle class guy, am I a cultural pirate and racist? If not, why would I be for wearing dreadlocks?

Well, this is one of the less or least problematic situations available on the spectrum...I mean, in this example you're part of the community, you're communicating with people, it's all good, basically.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
23:46 / 28.10.06
(Pegs) Well, to me, denying that whiteness has an unequal and dispropotionate amount of privelege attached to it - and that this power relationship has it's roots in colonialilism - well, that's a simplificaion if ever I've heard one.

I disagree, because (to my current way of thinking) making the assumption that we can treat (in this instance) white people as a homogeneous mass collectively benefitting from past oppression of non-white people is dangerously broad. I think it's a good approximation, but cannot be treated as categorically true; it should not be used to base arguments on.

(Lurid) Partly, because I'm starting to wonder whether race as a concept actually works - it certainly becomes difficult, even a touch incoherent, if you look at it too closely.

Absolutely. I'm as guilty of it as anyone, but to talk in terms of race - positively, negatively, neutrally, however - denies the individuality of people to an extent.

(Pegs) Just a footnote: the words "blame" and "guilt" are first employed here by Kay, alongside the statement that this "blame" saddens hir. ("Hey, if you black people would just y'know, stop going on about it all the time, everything would be fine" Sigh.) I think these words are quite deliberately, if unselfconsciously, employed here as way of dismissing legitmate concerns. This is a recurrent theme in Kay's posting.

That's not my intention. I intended to question the manner, frequency and general applicability of attributing blame, guilt (or, more on-topic, rights and privileges) on a racial basis. I find myself a not-especially-willing defender of whites en masse. I fully appreciate that a very large number of whites have done very fucking horrible things to a very large number of non-whites throughout recent history and that certain collections of people, companies, countries, whatever enjoy privileged status as a result, but I do not think that because of that criticism can be levied against all whites as a mass; I think that saying "all whites are privileged because of the actions of whites" is dangerous ground to tread.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
00:09 / 29.10.06
I should add: generally speaking, I would endorse the idea that all privileged people have an individual responsibility to act so as to lower that privilege. My conscience is not clear.
 
 
illmatic
00:29 / 29.10.06
Kay - I am not saying we can treat ... white people as a homogeneous mass collectively benefitting from past oppression of non-white people. I am saying whiteness has a degree of privlege attached to it, which will benefit white people in many situations, frequently without them noticing. Not to acknowledge and recognise that is, I think, denying the obvious. This is not a call for every individual white person to feel personal guilt, as has been covered upthread.

I intended to question the manner, frequency and general applicability of attributing blame, guilt (or, more on-topic, rights and privileges) on a racial basis.

Well, you are actually the one who brought guilt and blame into the thread. No one else was talking about it, or attempting to criticise all whites as a "homogenous mass". Legba was criticsing a cultural practice that originates will black people as taken up by white people. To simplify, Legba is saying that people can wear this haircut in a way that's a lot "safer" because of this privelge. Various people are agreeing or disagreeing with him. The digression into colonialism, and the broadening out of what's been said here into wider criticisms came from you.

As I said "blame" and "guilt" don't come into it (well, alright they do, if we start to look at some of the disavowals of reponsibility that exist, but that's a bit off-topic), but I think privelege does. What I was trying to get at above was that this might not translate into (say) economic success for you personally, or a wonderous and happy life, but it's still there. Id wrote something really good about this, I will try and find a link.

Normally, it wouldn't get up my nose as much, but it seems whenever anybody wants to criticise folk who happen to be white, you start to draw unrelated parallels. "How can we criticse x (white person) when y (brown person) is still indulging in a complete unrelated activity." There's a slightly different variant on it here, but, I wonder.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:31 / 29.10.06
Blame and guilt are often used by people who want to minimise the impact of racism - how much more awful, after all, to be made to feel guilty, or to be blamed, than to be the victim of social or economic inequality - as the validity of race as an issue is often questioned by those who have benefitted from the distinctions created by it most. I believe it was George Washington Carver who said "Boo Fucking Hoo".
 
 
Saturn's nod
06:09 / 29.10.06
Relevant to the colonization/de-colonization part of the thread summary: another aspect to guilt and blame is the stories I grew up with about what "white guilt" and its denial actually mean: when identification with the oppressed is too painful, people choose to identify instead with the oppressor. Instead of empathising with those whose lives were torn apart and who were tortured by enslavement, a choice is made to identify with the oppressors who did the enslaving - it's less painful.

So the root of white guilt about e.g. colonialism could be seen as the result of fleeing from our human capacity for empathy with the oppressed. I guess the way I was told this as a kid, the point was being made that people of any gender can be effective as anti-sexist activists, people of any race can be anti-racist activists: the people telling me this stuff were anti-apartheid activists and Greenham Common women and their supporters.

There is a choice available to identify with those who suffer, to commit to the humanity we share and to work for justice. The white guilt choice is a choice to uphold racial division and to support the inequalities of the status quo out of fear of feeling pain. Similarly I find it hard to forgive "vague male guilt" when I see it as based in the same dynamic: rather than empathising, studying to understand the realities of the situation and using that empathic human-to-human understanding to fuel action for change, a choice is made to 'feel a bit guilty' and deploy privilege to block progress instead.
 
 
nighthawk
06:10 / 29.10.06
Well, this is one of the less or least problematic situations available on the spectrum...I mean, in this example you're part of the community, you're communicating with people, it's all good, basically.

I'm really confused now. Why is this automatically 'good' borrowing because Quantum lived in a particular community, rather than because ze has picked up a mannerism and not a commodified hairstyle, say? Surely community dynamics are just as likely to be affected by colonialism and racism, in terms of access to resources for example, or relative wealth - you don't avoid 'racism', at least in the sense in which I thought we were using it in this thread, just by living with people from different cultures. And besides, a straight-up colonial would live in a particular community, communicate with the people, maybe even really know about the culture they were borrowing from. Surely that's not all good?
 
  

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